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Tacyon
The Phayder Corporation
Posted - 2011.06.30 20:28:00 - [31]
 

OP - your summation of the environment would be basically correct, save one simple modifier. CCP said that this is our game. We control its market. We control it's environment, politics and just about everything else.. We [CCP] are just the keepers of the hardware. This changes everything.


El Puerco
Caldari
State Protectorate
Posted - 2011.06.30 20:28:00 - [32]
 

finaly a post that makes sense

Tron Flux
Caldari
Midnite Madness
Posted - 2011.06.30 20:28:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Ris Dnalor
Originally by: Tron Flux
Buying a product from a company doesn't award you any rights with regard to that company. I can buy stuff from the grocery store for years and years.

That doesn't mean that I have any right to tell the grocery store what to do or how to do it.

The groceries are not a fundamental right, and the store itself is not a democracy. If the store does things I don't like, I go to a different store.

If I really care about the store, I buy shares in it until I have a controlling or compelling interest in it. Then I have the privilege of making suggestions.

If I really really cared, I would get a job at the company that had some influence and make a difference that way.

But buying stuff from the company isn't the same as buying a part of the company. The idea that anyone can demand stuff from CCP is completely absurd. You are living in a dreamworld that has no connection to reality.

You are paying for a service. If you don't like it, go find another service. You certainly have no grounds to issue mandates about the corporate strategy.

What exactly is it you think companies do to expand their markets and profits? The good ones use a hit product to fund other products. All this moaning about wod and dust is just stupidity. Of course they aren't making money yet, you dolts! They haven't been released!

Good grief. It's like some of you have never had a job.


as someone who's been running busineses for 20 years I can tell you that I prefer it when my customers tell me about their dis-satisfaction rather than just leave, because I know from experience that if 1 person tells you about a perceived problem, there are many more that, as you suggest, just left without saying a word and never came back.

So, I value feedback. Is it all valid? of course not. Is it all something that I can change? or even want to change? no. Am I disrespectful to the folks that give me feedback? Never. Because information is always useful, and if someone cares enough to take the time to give you their thoughts on your business, you should be respectful and listen. It's not only common courtesy, but it's good business. Listening to all the "bad" suggestions gives you a reputation that you listen and care, and ultimately yields some "good" suggestions that you end up being thankful for... and ends up making your business more profitable.

The fact isn't that people want to tell CCP how to run their business, on the contrary, they want to let CCP know when they're ****ed off. This merely indicates that they enjoy the service that CCP has provided so much that if it changes it'll make them unhappy that they can't have it any more. Some are just jumping on the band-wagon, sure, but many are voicing a real opinion, and if it's not heard they will leave. And I'm sure CCP is aware that while many of the complainers will stay, there are going to be many silent folks that will leave as well without saying a word, if changes are unliked.

Now, CCP isn't dumb. I don't like the changes, but I think CCP will gain more revenue than they lose. Eve will be different, and I won't like it, but that doesn't mean it won't be more popular overall.

SO yea, CCP is going to do what they want. However, to tell people they should not express their opinion is just stupid.


I'm not against expressing opinions. I'm against people acting like this is a real-world environment and that it has some kind of implication beyond a game. I'm especially against people making "demands."

Of course I listen to customer feedback. But if a customer came into my business and started causing a disruption to my normal business over a satisfaction issue, I would call the police and have that person removed. Just like anyone else would.

If you aren't in that category, then this is not directed at you.

Tron Flux
Caldari
Midnite Madness
Posted - 2011.06.30 20:35:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Tacyon
OP - your summation of the environment would be basically correct, save one simple modifier. CCP said that this is our game. We control its market. We control it's environment, politics and just about everything else.. We [CCP] are just the keepers of the hardware. This changes everything.




Well I either wasn't around when they said that (quite likely) or I didn't read it (also quite likely). But the reality of the situation is that the EVE economy is ruled by its currency: ISK. CCP prints the ISK when you blow up rats. It sucks it up when you buy stuff from the LP store and, now, the NEX.

CCP has always ruled the economy. The player driven aspect only accounts for how that ISK is exchanged between players.

That was marketing hype, and I'm sorry you fell for it.

Speaker4 theDead
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.30 20:38:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Tron Flux
Buying a product from a company doesn't award you any rights with regard to that company. I can buy stuff from the grocery store for years and years.

That doesn't mean that I have any right to tell the grocery store what to do or how to do it.

The groceries are not a fundamental right, and the store itself is not a democracy. If the store does things I don't like, I go to a different store.

If I really care about the store, I buy shares in it until I have a controlling or compelling interest in it. Then I have the privilege of making suggestions.

If I really really cared, I would get a job at the company that had some influence and make a difference that way.

But buying stuff from the company isn't the same as buying a part of the company. The idea that anyone can demand stuff from CCP is completely absurd. You are living in a dreamworld that has no connection to reality.

You are paying for a service. If you don't like it, go find another service. You certainly have no grounds to issue mandates about the corporate strategy.

What exactly is it you think companies do to expand their markets and profits? The good ones use a hit product to fund other products. All this moaning about wod and dust is just stupidity. Of course they aren't making money yet, you dolts! They haven't been released!

Good grief. It's like some of you have never had a job.


So if the Grocery store sells you substandard crap, your ok with it? You don't have the right to complain about something like that?

Go back to school, you certainly have never had a job in customer service.

Tron Flux
Caldari
Midnite Madness
Posted - 2011.06.30 20:40:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Ris Dnalor
Originally by: Tron Flux
Originally by: Khamal Jolstien
Originally by: Tron Flux
Buying a product from a company doesn't award you any rights with regard to that company. I can buy stuff from the grocery store for years and years.

That doesn't mean that I have any right to tell the grocery store what to do or how to do it.

The groceries are not a fundamental right, and the store itself is not a democracy. If the store does things I don't like, I go to a different store.

If I really care about the store, I buy shares in it until I have a controlling or compelling interest in it. Then I have the privilege of making suggestions.

If I really really cared, I would get a job at the company that had some influence and make a difference that way.

But buying stuff from the company isn't the same as buying a part of the company. The idea that anyone can demand stuff from CCP is completely absurd. You are living in a dreamworld that has no connection to reality.

You are paying for a service. If you don't like it, go find another service. You certainly have no grounds to issue mandates about the corporate strategy.

What exactly is it you think companies do to expand their markets and profits? The good ones use a hit product to fund other products. All this moaning about wod and dust is just stupidity. Of course they aren't making money yet, you dolts! They haven't been released!

Good grief. It's like some of you have never had a job.

Swing and miss.
The reality is, we know CCP NEEDS us to be its customers. This is their only profitable product, and if they dont do what WE want, then we will go find that other service. Sure we don't legally have any say in what they do, but if CCP wants to remain in business...


I don't think CCP needs you. Sure, they want your money, but they don't need you.


to CCP there is no difference between me and my money...


That's true, and that's as it should be. If CCP started trying to care about each individual player's wants, they'd go bust. The fact is that a successful company just doesn't care about a couple percent of their market. So long as the majority is happy, strategies move forward.

Race Drones
13th Squadron
E C L I P S E
Posted - 2011.06.30 20:44:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Race Drones on 30/06/2011 20:50:40
Edited by: Race Drones on 30/06/2011 20:46:10
Originally by: Tron Flux
Buying a product from a company doesn't award you any rights with regard to that company. I can buy stuff from the grocery store for years and years.

That doesn't mean that I have any right to tell the grocery store what to do or how to do it.


Salubrity Dept. do it for you!!!, how to store, how to clean floors, how to clean tables, how to manipulate merchandise, temperature, ... and when you pay for a service, ..., another Dept. do it for you!!!.


Gran Asutor
Posted - 2011.06.30 20:44:00 - [38]
 

boring. You shouldn't be playin advocate of the devil. Obviously, as an Eve player, you should have demands, your in-game needs. Else you're just an semi-intellectual, automated consumer slave.

Be human for, once. There is time enough to be immortal and rational in your pod.

Elaine Eza
Posted - 2011.06.30 20:46:00 - [39]
 

Lets say for the last 5 years you went to a fine bakery every day and bought 2 of their fanstatic biscuits. Now suddenly that same bakery keeps selling you very crappy biscuits and they have a white board in front of the store where their customers can exchange oppinion about their product. You say it is unappropriate for the customers to write on the whiteboard that they will buy their biscuits elsewhere in the future if they dont get them back to the old quality standard?

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2011.06.30 20:46:00 - [40]
 

CCP does not care about each player, but they do care about thousands of players. Which is why people should, in addition to complaining on the forums, unsub thier accounts.

ALLYOURMONEY BELONGTOUS
Posted - 2011.06.30 20:47:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Mr Epeen
Originally by: Rekindle



CCP wants cake and to eat it too.


That phrase sounds familiar. Someone used it, but who?

Oh it was me discussing people who expect to be taken seriously when they threaten to quit, but keep playing, posting and talking about the next fanfest.


Trolls trolling trolls... Lol!!!
Mmmmm! Cake.

Mr Epeen Cool

Kitsune Sakai
Posted - 2011.06.30 21:52:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Tron Flux


Do a quick general discusion forum search for the words "We Demand" and come back and tell me that no one is demanding anything. Like I said, if that's not you, this isn't directed at you.



Like I said: You really really need to work on your communication and people skills. I realise it's an uphill struggle for you, but it might pay.

And work on your quoting skills too. Snipping relevant text while levying in less relevant text makes you look stupid, dishonest or both.

Zleon Leigh
Posted - 2011.06.30 22:00:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Ris Dnalor
Originally by: Tron Flux
Buying a product from a company doesn't award you any rights with regard to that company. I can buy stuff from the grocery store for years and years.

That doesn't mean that I have any right to tell the grocery store what to do or how to do it.

The groceries are not a fundamental right, and the store itself is not a democracy. If the store does things I don't like, I go to a different store.

If I really care about the store, I buy shares in it until I have a controlling or compelling interest in it. Then I have the privilege of making suggestions.

If I really really cared, I would get a job at the company that had some influence and make a difference that way.

But buying stuff from the company isn't the same as buying a part of the company. The idea that anyone can demand stuff from CCP is completely absurd. You are living in a dreamworld that has no connection to reality.

You are paying for a service. If you don't like it, go find another service. You certainly have no grounds to issue mandates about the corporate strategy.

What exactly is it you think companies do to expand their markets and profits? The good ones use a hit product to fund other products. All this moaning about wod and dust is just stupidity. Of course they aren't making money yet, you dolts! They haven't been released!

Good grief. It's like some of you have never had a job.


as someone who's been running busineses for 20 years I can tell you that I prefer it when my customers tell me about their dis-satisfaction rather than just leave, because I know from experience that if 1 person tells you about a perceived problem, there are many more that, as you suggest, just left without saying a word and never came back.

So, I value feedback. Is it all valid? of course not. Is it all something that I can change? or even want to change? no. Am I disrespectful to the folks that give me feedback? Never. Because information is always useful, and if someone cares enough to take the time to give you their thoughts on your business, you should be respectful and listen. It's not only common courtesy, but it's good business. Listening to all the "bad" suggestions gives you a reputation that you listen and care, and ultimately yields some "good" suggestions that you end up being thankful for... and ends up making your business more profitable.

The fact isn't that people want to tell CCP how to run their business, on the contrary, they want to let CCP know when they're ****ed off. This merely indicates that they enjoy the service that CCP has provided so much that if it changes it'll make them unhappy that they can't have it any more. Some are just jumping on the band-wagon, sure, but many are voicing a real opinion, and if it's not heard they will leave. And I'm sure CCP is aware that while many of the complainers will stay, there are going to be many silent folks that will leave as well without saying a word, if changes are unliked.

Now, CCP isn't dumb. I don't like the changes, but I think CCP will gain more revenue than they lose. Eve will be different, and I won't like it, but that doesn't mean it won't be more popular overall.

SO yea, CCP is going to do what they want. However, to tell people they should not express their opinion is just stupid.


+1 Obvious OP has never been in business, and even worse - he is a customer sheep. Possibly been so lucky that every business he has dealt with has been without fault, but that would make him too young to be playing EVE.

Uuali
Posted - 2011.06.30 22:08:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Uuali on 30/06/2011 22:09:36

You are wrong sir! In lieu of stocks our money is like shares. If we like what the company has been doing we vote with our wallets and have every right to complain in order to steer that business back to good profitability. That company had better pay attention or go under. You should learn more about the free market system. Obviously, CCP, an icelandic company, doesn't understand that very well. White Wolf seems to have learned that lesson the hard way and got bought out by CCP for failing to continue to deliver a good or useful product.

Just going somewhere else is a cop out. CCP should be so lucky that it has people trying to stick up for the product and give them a chance to continue receiving our money.

Ayame Yubari
Posted - 2011.06.30 22:08:00 - [45]
 

Odd analogy. Last time I checked I certainly didn't go to the grocery store for entertainment. Much less was I ever involved in "shaping the universe" of that store by going there. I was never part of the goods this store consisted of either. I was never a lump of bread trying to market myself properly so I'd get picked first. I was never a box of flakes trying to avoid agro while uh... mining... for milk... I never errected my own shelf in the back of the store behind the door with the "0.0 - enter at your own risk" sign.

Callous Jade
Posted - 2011.06.30 22:12:00 - [46]
 

TL:DR - Idiot builds strawman argument from fail analogy. More at 6.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.30 22:13:00 - [47]
 

The premise of the argument is that the customer gets no rights with regard to that company ... hrm. Avoiding all the possible equivocated directions this could be argued, one simple fact remains, the customer has the money, and he is under no obligation to shop there again.

Good grief, it's like someone of you have never had to do anything but stand behind a counter, put on your fake smile as you ask, "Would you like some chips with that?"

Customers may sometimes be stupid, sometimes wrong, sometimes total fcking unreasonable jack offs, but they remain the customer. It is the customers right to btich and moan, to be unhappy, to be sad and to be disappointed. We should all be happy customers can be such an unruly lot. If customers were not a pain in the ass, we'd all still be riding horses and wiping our asses with leaves.

So wipe that horsesiht of your face OP, I'm not buying the crap you're trying to sell here. Here's a leaf.

Tron Flux
Caldari
Midnite Madness
Posted - 2011.06.30 22:35:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
one simple fact remains, the customer has the money, and he is under no obligation to shop there again.


That's the point. If you don't like it, you don't have to shop at CCP.

Caiyuga Onishi
Posted - 2011.06.30 22:39:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Tron Flux
If the store does things I don't like, I go to a different store.


Damn how did you know that? That's exactely what everyone here is going to do..
I think you should pay CCP for the server load you cause with your useless thread.

0/10

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.30 22:40:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 30/06/2011 22:49:25
Originally by: Tron Flux
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
one simple fact remains, the customer has the money, and he is under no obligation to shop there again.


That's the point. If you don't like it, you don't have to shop at CCP.


So you're pointing out the obvious cause ... ?

Keno Range
Posted - 2011.06.30 22:44:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Keno Range on 30/06/2011 22:50:42
Originally by: Tron Flux
If you don't like it, go find another service.


I guess democracy is too complicated a concept for you to understand. Society is not a grocery store.
(And even your grocery store example is flawed. You have a long list of rights there.)


Tron Flux
Caldari
Midnite Madness
Posted - 2011.06.30 22:50:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Keno Range
Originally by: Tron Flux
If you don't like it, go find another service.


I guess democracy is too complicated a concept for you to understand. Society is not a grocery store.
(Oh, and even your grocery store example is flawed. If the store sells you crap that's beyond the best-before-date or violates laws, you have a long list of rights to complain, change goods, get your money back, sue etc.)



EVE is not a democracy. In real life, we--at least some of us--live in democratic societies. EVE is not a democratic society. It's a game run by CCP. There are no laws that govern what CCP can do, and there are no rights within the game. You buy the service until you don't. That's it.

Keno Range
Posted - 2011.06.30 22:53:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Tron Flux
EVE is not a democratic society. It's a game run by CCP. There are no laws that govern what CCP can do, and there are no rights within the game. You buy the service until you don't. That's it.


Society is always democratic by its very nature. If you choose not to participate, that's your decision.

Caiyuga Onishi
Posted - 2011.06.30 22:53:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 30/06/2011 22:49:25
Originally by: Tron Flux
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
one simple fact remains, the customer has the money, and he is under no obligation to shop there again.


That's the point. If you don't like it, you don't have to shop at CCP.


So you're pointing out the obvious cause ... ?


Answer the question please.

Theoer
Posted - 2011.06.30 22:54:00 - [55]
 

Only thing i feel sorry for is that i payed in advance for a product i was using, and now it's not usable anymore in the same conditions as when i payed for it.

Typhoon Warfreak
Caldari
Definitive Exploration and Excavations
Posted - 2011.06.30 22:57:00 - [56]
 

I'm pretty sure the EULA that we all agreed to said that we have absolutely no rights to EVE.

Better check the EULA to make it says we aren't being forced to bend over or something :P

crymyname
Posted - 2011.06.30 22:57:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Tron Flux
Buying a product from a company doesn't award you any rights with regard to that company. I can buy stuff from the grocery store for years and years.

That doesn't mean that I have any right to tell the grocery store what to do or how to do it.

The groceries are not a fundamental right, and the store itself is not a democracy. If the store does things I don't like, I go to a different store.

If I really care about the store, I buy shares in it until I have a controlling or compelling interest in it. Then I have the privilege of making suggestions.

If I really really cared, I would get a job at the company that had some influence and make a difference that way.

But buying stuff from the company isn't the same as buying a part of the company. The idea that anyone can demand stuff from CCP is completely absurd. You are living in a dreamworld that has no connection to reality.

You are paying for a service. If you don't like it, go find another service. You certainly have no grounds to issue mandates about the corporate strategy.

What exactly is it you think companies do to expand their markets and profits? The good ones use a hit product to fund other products. All this moaning about wod and dust is just stupidity. Of course they aren't making money yet, you dolts! They haven't been released!

Good grief. It's like some of you have never had a job.

but this is not a food shop.. this is a game were we as players drive the world as a whole ..
so if we as players don't like it then as we are paying for it we have some imput..
if most of us don't like it ccp is finished ...well don't have to be most .. just 20-30%

Pok Nibin
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.30 22:57:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Adam Smyth
Unfortunately your analogy (such as it is) is fundamentally flawed.

I think I catch the merest wisp of a poor argument but do not accept either its logic or the basic premise.


Again with the specifics!

Let me help you. Most grocers, if you ask them, will listen to you about stocking things they don't have in stock if you assure them you'll buy them. Then, if they see others are interested as well, they'll add said items to their standard inventory.

Also, if some tattooed punk/metal nunchuck wielding psycho is in the parking lot asking you for a date every time you drive up, mention it to the cashier. No doubt someone will drop a dime (quarter now?) on the guy.

Guess again.

Takseen
Posted - 2011.06.30 22:59:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: Takseen on 30/06/2011 22:59:27
Grocery store isn't a good analogy. A better fit with be something with a subscription service like a gym or golf club. Let's run with the golf club. You've been a member for years, maybe you even played in a few of the club tournaments. But you notice that lately the course has gotten a bit untidy, the greens are lumpy, the grass on the fairway is practically the same as the rough and there's tree branches lying on the tee box. And now they tell you they want to sell you golf balls for $5 a pop. And when you see the club accounts you discover that maintenance of the grounds has been cut so that the club can invest in a new shopping centre development. Sure you might just say screw this and cancel your membership, but if you're really passionate about golfing and the club you played at for yours, you might have a few angry words to say to the management before you go, in case you can persuade them to see reason.

killmc
Gallente
Navajo commandos
Posted - 2011.06.30 23:02:00 - [60]
 

if i could i buy stock in ccp and snap up at less 30% stock and than go at them what few m $$$ to save game i love


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