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Astraias
Amarr
Blue Nova Corp.
Posted - 2011.06.30 17:15:00 - [1]
 

Quote:

@Trebor_CSM Robert Woodhead
@EVE_Svennig Unclear if formal minutes needed. Joint statement + clarifications in forums may be enough #tweetfleet #csm6



I want to make the request that the minutes from the meeting are indeed provided. Off course i can only speak for myself but for me a statement and clarifications are not enough. I would like to see this as a transparent process.

Thanks for considering my statement.

Clavian Voi
Posted - 2011.06.30 17:42:00 - [2]
 

Why in the world would this even be a question?

Trust is in short supply right now in EVE. The players want to know what is happening and why, and I am at a complete loss in attempting to understand why the CSM would not push for as many answers and as much transparency as possible.

The CSM cannot force CCP to do anything it doesn't want to do. But the CSM can and should aggressively represent player interests, and then provide detailed minutes so that players can make up their own minds about what's going on and the future direction of EVE Online. Keeping the meetings secret will only serve to further agitate an already upset playerbase.

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.06.30 18:14:00 - [3]
 

They are, and they will be released as soon as we agree that they correctly portray the stance each participant had.

Ashina Sito
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2011.06.30 21:11:00 - [4]
 

The reason why Tweeter sucks as a form of information distribution.

Habaticus
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.01 00:15:00 - [5]
 

It looks like some of the CSM don't have time to mess around with this communication thing with the community. Too boring and beneath them I guess. If it is a too big a chore or you don't want to dirty yourselves with communicating to the unwashed masses, then resign and let an alternate CSM member give it a try.

Yes we want minutes and a couple of weeks after the meeting not a couple of months.

Lunce
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.01 08:12:00 - [6]
 

A few weeks?

If the community doesn't get something concrete within a day or two of the meeting there will be riots! I don't think most people realize just how precarious the situation is.

Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.07.01 15:55:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
They are, and they will be released as soon as we agree that they correctly portray the stance each participant had.


How many months from now before we can expect them? Maybe we will be into the next expansion? Can you tell us time in the measurement of monocle? You know like for every 3.8 months equals a monocle. So we can expect to see these minutes in four or five monocles?

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.07.01 16:50:00 - [8]
 

With all the recent events, I'm even more interested in seeing what is being discussed. The CSM meeting minutes ceased with the end of the previous CSM. The Iceland summit was a month and a half ago and still no minutes. It seems we get more information from kugu than the Eve website these days. I can't imagine CCP is okay with this.

C4LYP50
Solarwind Interstellar Mining and Production Ltd
Posted - 2011.07.02 08:54:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: C4LYP50 on 02/07/2011 08:56:15
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
They are, and they will be released as soon as we agree that they correctly portray the stance each participant had.


What a ****-and-bull line. The whole purpose of having unedited minutes is so WE can make up our own minds as to each person's stance. We don't need anyone's crappy "sanitizing", we've had quite enough of that, thank you.

Also, no update at all on your blog since Thursday, when you KNOW the playerbase is anxious, is fail. Get a hold of yourselves, jerk off, and get it over with, so you can release your "version of events" to the unwashed masses. Thanks.

Edit: "jerk off" being used as a verb here, not referring to a person.


Extreme
Eye of God
Intergalactic Exports Group
Posted - 2011.07.02 15:04:00 - [10]
 

soon TM

Cool

Morar Santee
Posted - 2011.07.02 15:28:00 - [11]
 

I would really appreciate an unedited version as well. If this ends up being a publicity stunt where every controversial statement was removed and/or altered by CCP to serve as a damage control measure, rather than open communication, it is utterly useless to me.

Janos Saal
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.02 20:24:00 - [12]
 

The purpose of minutes is not to record events, but to protect people.
Don't expect anything to be presented in a way that could be unflattering to CCP.

Aodha Khan
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.05 11:59:00 - [13]
 

edited minutes of meeting. Your almost as bad as CCP at politics.

Bane Darkblade
Posted - 2011.07.05 16:36:00 - [14]
 

I too make the request for all minutes and recordings to be made available to the public, with no edits.

CCP shouldn't have to approve the minutes to be released. The CSMs are our elected representatives. Political meetings behind closed doors = voters getting screwed.

Cedille Mureau
Gallente
Institute of Archaeology
Posted - 2011.07.06 10:43:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Cedille Mureau on 06/07/2011 10:44:08
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
They are, and they will be released as soon as we agree that they correctly portray the stance each participant had.


I agree with CALYP5O, spinning the proceedings is *NOT* serving the primary purpose of CSM. You are,for better or worse, our representatives with CCP. Get a grip and let us know what really was said and agreed, otherwise you are just shills working to CCP's agenda.

Slightly off-topic I know, but related, is this business of NDAs. Now as our representatives you should be in a position to fully inform us of everything said and done at meetings with CCP. If there are things and topics that CCP decide should not be divulged to the peons then you have no business finding out what these topics are. Put simply if we are not allowed to know then you have no business finding out. Only ask about things deemed open to all. As a commited Linux user I am, I suppose, more averse to NDAs and their like than some but this has really rankled and lowered my opinion of the whole CSM exercise.Mad Oh, as to the time taken to publish the minutes; as a former secretary to a large voluntary association if I had procrastinated for as long I would expect to have been on the end of a very vigorous rocket from the members.

Jita Von Trade
Posted - 2011.07.06 15:00:00 - [16]
 

I was going to post a big serious post.

Now, all I want to say is that any minutes will be edited but recording should be considered... I want to know how many times us subscribers are discussed in a bad way and the general feeling towards the Eve community when it comes to planning and/or decision making.

Are we cattle or comrades?

I have to stop typing or I'll textwall this topic with my views. Restraint 101.

Van Derka
Posted - 2011.07.08 06:20:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
They are, and they will be released as soon as we agree that they correctly portray the stance each participant had.


Please discuss and release a 'CSM Minutes Edit Guide v1.0'

I would be happy to have the CSM meeting minutes filtered and edited, as long as the edits/filters were applied consistently.

I'd like to see a report on the meetings discussion rather than a transcript of the group conversation, I don't care about what they did last night etc.

All I'm interested in, is statements, actions and the responses/outcomes/plans.

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.07.09 10:43:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Van Derka
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
They are, and they will be released as soon as we agree that they correctly portray the stance each participant had.


Please discuss and release a 'CSM Minutes Edit Guide v1.0'

I would be happy to have the CSM meeting minutes filtered and edited, as long as the edits/filters were applied consistently.

I'd like to see a report on the meetings discussion rather than a transcript of the group conversation, I don't care about what they did last night etc.

All I'm interested in, is statements, actions and the responses/outcomes/plans.


When I was secretary of the CSM, Meeting minutes making used to be:
- Take notes during the meeting (was a really really tough job, taking notes and participating in discussions was difficult)
- Secretary comes back from Iceland, puts notes into something that resembles english.
- Secretary sends notes to CCP, CCP edits, sends back to CSM.
- CSM checks that everything is ok, tells CCP to publish them.

After a couple of snafus during CSM 5, the revision and back & forth process between CSM & CCP has been extended so everyone is happy about what has been said because mischaracterization of CCP's stance on some things occured.

in CSM 6, we now have the video/audio recording of the sessions made available to make the minutes so the secretary doesn't have to take notes during the meeting (that's a good thing). But it also means said secretary has to spend an additional time listening to it all again and then doing back & forth and all that.

I'll poke robert about it and direct him here so he can comment, but as always, it's a learning process and the next ones should go faster.

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.07.09 10:52:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Cedille Mureau
Edited by: Cedille Mureau on 06/07/2011 10:44:08
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
They are, and they will be released as soon as we agree that they correctly portray the stance each participant had.


I agree with CALYP5O, spinning the proceedings is *NOT* serving the primary purpose of CSM. You are,for better or worse, our representatives with CCP. Get a grip and let us know what really was said and agreed, otherwise you are just shills working to CCP's agenda.

Slightly off-topic I know, but related, is this business of NDAs. Now as our representatives you should be in a position to fully inform us of everything said and done at meetings with CCP. If there are things and topics that CCP decide should not be divulged to the peons then you have no business finding out what these topics are. Put simply if we are not allowed to know then you have no business finding out. Only ask about things deemed open to all. As a commited Linux user I am, I suppose, more averse to NDAs and their like than some but this has really rankled and lowered my opinion of the whole CSM exercise.Mad Oh, as to the time taken to publish the minutes; as a former secretary to a large voluntary association if I had procrastinated for as long I would expect to have been on the end of a very vigorous rocket from the members.


It's not about spinning.

The way the meetings are held and the conversations we have with the devs take place in a manner that is not appropriate for public consumption. When we tell CCP they are <insert expletive here> for doing this or that, it takes place within a certain context and an understanding of what is meant.

The conversations are also back & forth where people express stances in strong words, play devil's advocate, go to extremes, reach consensus, etc. The community as a whole (as opposed to individuals within that community) has always displayed a very strong ability to take things out of context and, yes, spin it.

So these conversations have to be edited to present the arguments made from both sides and the conclusions reached. Not provide more venues for people to read what they want to read into what people say.

About the NDA. It allows us to comment on things CCP do before they do it. Like provide feedback on the most recent marketing campaign, have constructive discussions about possibly unpopular upcoming changes (try to have that on a forum). It also gives CCP the ability to change plans (when they chose to do so) when facing a strongly negative reaction from us without having to go through threadnaughts about things they're changing based on our feedback anyway.

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.09 10:56:00 - [20]
 

The current status of minutes:

May: done, awaiting final CCP comments. This has pretty much been the status for the last two weeks. If they are not out next week, I would be surprised.

Peace Conference: in preparation; first drafts of day 1 have been completed.

AnzacPaul
Perkone
Posted - 2011.07.10 05:05:00 - [21]
 

Why would we want to read a doctored version of events?

Stop treating us like children ffs.

Salria Usenheart
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.10 11:07:00 - [22]
 

Because half the people on the forums do act like children and take things out of context.

Also meeting minutes for most companies are sanitized so discussions can't be taken out of context by people who were not there. Text comes out very differently as you should know and so there has to be some consideration to what to release to put it in the correct light of the verbal discussion.

Cedille Mureau
Gallente
Institute of Archaeology
Posted - 2011.07.11 16:18:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Cedille Mureau on 11/07/2011 19:26:52
"The way the meetings are held and the conversations we have with the devs take place in a manner that is not appropriate for public consumption. When we tell CCP they are <insert expletive here> for doing this or that, it takes place within a certain context and an understanding of what is meant."

Then I suggest that you adopt a more professional approach to the meetings and curb your language. I read the reports of the "fireside chat" recently held. The thought of wading through hours of cursing, swearing and indecent remarks determined me not to listen. For crying out loud, if the reports of the language in a fireside chat are to be believed I would hate to think what pillow talk must be like.

It is generally said that resorting to foul and abusive language denotes either a limited vocabulary/intelligence or contempt for those at which it is directed. I hope that neither is true in the case of CSM. If you cannot express yourself without resorting to such language then I don't think that I want you as my representatives.

What you are really saying is that we must take on trust that you are doing the job that we elected you to do. OK. benefit of the doubt etc. but please be aware that trust is earned not demanded and if you continue to act as if the whole exercise of the CSM is for your edification and gratification alone then I'm sorry, the trust will not be there.

I speak from experience of being the minutes secretary at large, rowdy and heated public meetings as well as committee ones. Try and keep the redactions to an absolute minimum, if any, and always bear in mind that you are not solely there as individuals but the players' representatives and conduct yourselves accordingly. Sorry, the last bit is pompous and maybe obvious but I feel that it had to be said.

Gary Hagon
Gallente
Angry Hobos
Interstellar Hobos
Posted - 2011.07.12 06:45:00 - [24]
 

After reading through everything, I would like to suggest to CSM the following.

1. Publish the edited minutes as normal
2. Publish an unedited audio/video/transcripts
3. Publish additional relevant notes

I believe that all of the above should be done for all future CSM meetings to assist the general populous and "dedicated" EVE players into better understanding the outcome of the meeting, to the last, dirty, gritty, raw and unedited truth.

I know it sounds unorthodox but its the only way to satisfy both the general EVE community and those dedicated to the CSM/CCP/public cluster-****.


 

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