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N'maro Makari
Posted - 2011.06.30 14:32:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: N''maro Makari on 30/06/2011 14:46:14
As anyone who logged onto the Summit yesterday will know, there was yet another spat over the issue of slavery, during which the message that I had given, which sparked the discussion, was lost in word games and name calling.

I would like to make clear my postition, my original message and leave no doubt in anyones mind as to my opinion. I am posting it here because I wil not be interepted and the disusion can be checekd if needs be

First off, my message was targeted at those who have attempted to fob off the issue of slavery. The people who have attempted to justify what the Empire has done and to claim that the anger amongst Matari is unjustified.

Consider the acts of the past. The Empire took the Matari away from and defiled their home, in the name of a God who they wanted no part of. It forced them to work for its benefit and gave nothing in return. It forced procreation on many, all to expand the workforce. It put poison into the bodies of slaves as a means of control.

This itself would not be such a problem, if it were not still going on, much as it has done. Even the benevolent acts of Her Majesty the Empress does not change the fact that one third of the Matari still live in chains. The apparent lack of sorrow of what was done and what is still being done incenses the Republic further.

One claim I have heard banded about is that the Minmatar want genocide and the Empire wants nothing of the sort. Nonsense.

I do not hide that many in the Republic wrongly want to make the Amarr as a people pay for their suffering. But the empire is not innocent either. Twice now, the Empire has attempted Genocide of the Starkmanir, who only lived because of the bravery and cunning of the Nefantar, whom I personally have found great respect for.

Then of course, there is the accusation that the Republic and the Tribes are being favouritist, focussing on their people. Of course they are.

Consider what would happen, if a planet full of Khanid was to be obliterated. Would'nt most if not all who call themselves Khanid feel a sense of outrage? If I was to kidnap the family of the Empress, would she not want to tear the cluster apart to find them?

Furthermore, what would you do if you're family was unjustly imprisoned? A tribe is a family. Asking us not to show concern for the Matari slaves or to leave them be is like telling us to abandon our Mothers, Fathers, Brothers and Sisters. I know the importance of an Amarrian family. Can you not see that a Tribe is at least simmilar?

I have not written here to stir personal emnities. I have written here to respond to unjust accusations.

I do not hate the Empire or its people.

I feel shame for many of the things my people have done.

But I refuse to accept that the anger and feeling of injustice of the Matari is something completely baseless.

I apologize if I indirectly offended any of my freinds in the Summit.

N'maro Makari
Posted - 2011.06.30 14:36:00 - [2]
 

I humbly ask that you think before replying, and stick to the points made here. I do not want my message to be lost in another slogging match.

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.06.30 15:45:00 - [3]
 

I do not recall having seen anyone saying that Matari's anger and feeling of injustice are baseless yersterday, though the whole channel was such a mess it was difficult to keep track on every single statement.

And if you really are looking to know why your accusations were recieved with very poor acclamation and patience by the opposed side, I ask you to read my personnal explanation that can be found here.

Jason Galente
Gallente
mishima ryu
Posted - 2011.06.30 15:51:00 - [4]
 

I recommend avoiding cliches if you don't want to annoy the hell out of people. I know this from experience.


N'maro Makari
Posted - 2011.06.30 16:05:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Lyn Farel
I do not recall having seen anyone saying that Matari's anger and feeling of injustice are baseless yersterday, though the whole channel was such a mess it was difficult to keep track on every single statement.

And if you really are looking to know why your accusations were recieved with very poor acclamation and patience by the opposed side, I ask you to read my personnal explanation that can be found here.


Well that response is frankly innacurate if you are trying to ascribe it to me. I suggest you re-read the post.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.06.30 17:14:00 - [6]
 

The anger and feelings of injustice by the Makari people are not baseless.

The responsive frustration and anger by the Amarr people are not baseless.

Efforts have been made to improve the situation. Her Majesty the Empress even made a giant step toward rectifying the injustice of generational slavery and it was met with dismissive disdain and continued reassertion that it wasn't enough.

Perhaps it wasn't enough but it was a start. Rather than recognizing this, the Empress' efforts have been spat back in her face.

This issue is spouted and argued repeatedly. No answer will be satisfactory, no response will be worthy and no action is adequate. Except for, and I quote, "The immediate release of all slaves." This mindset does not indicate a desire for peaceful resolution. It is a demand that your terms be met, much the same as a conditional surrender.

This will not happen. It simply is not possible for reasons that have been explained time and time again.

Efforts are being made to bring about change. Positive results are already evident.

Until those efforts and results are recognized, the situation will continue to be met with frustration and hostility.

I am sorry if my response is not well received or liked, but it is the truth as best as I can relay it. Peace and resolution will require an effort on both sides and it will require that both sides stop stabbing the injustices of one another and start working on a compromise. (Which is both sides making efforts to meet one another, sacrificing and giving as necessary until an agreement is reached).

N'maro Makari
Posted - 2011.06.30 17:52:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Raze Valadeus
The anger and feelings of injustice by the Makari people are not baseless.

The responsive frustration and anger by the Amarr people are not baseless.

Efforts have been made to improve the situation. Her Majesty the Empress even made a giant step toward rectifying the injustice of generational slavery and it was met with dismissive disdain and continued reassertion that it wasn't enough.

Perhaps it wasn't enough but it was a start. Rather than recognizing this, the Empress' efforts have been spat back in her face.

This issue is spouted and argued repeatedly. No answer will be satisfactory, no response will be worthy and no action is adequate. Except for, and I quote, "The immediate release of all slaves." This mindset does not indicate a desire for peaceful resolution. It is a demand that your terms be met, much the same as a conditional surrender.

This will not happen. It simply is not possible for reasons that have been explained time and time again.

Efforts are being made to bring about change. Positive results are already evident.

Until those efforts and results are recognized, the situation will continue to be met with frustration and hostility.

I am sorry if my response is not well received or liked, but it is the truth as best as I can relay it. Peace and resolution will require an effort on both sides and it will require that both sides stop stabbing the injustices of one another and start working on a compromise. (Which is both sides making efforts to meet one another, sacrificing and giving as necessary until an agreement is reached).


Raze, I think a beter course of action would be to make these things known. The Empress is a politician after all, all politicans make gestures. If we can be shown things visibly changing in the Empire among the ordinary holders, then I believe the Matari will at least be placated. But it must be soon Raze, simmering is only a step away from boiling.

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.01 00:53:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: N'maro Makari
Originally by: Lyn Farel
I do not recall having seen anyone saying that Matari's anger and feeling of injustice are baseless yersterday, though the whole channel was such a mess it was difficult to keep track on every single statement.

And if you really are looking to know why your accusations were recieved with very poor acclamation and patience by the opposed side, I ask you to read my personnal explanation that can be found here.


Well that response is frankly innacurate if you are trying to ascribe it to me. I suggest you re-read the post.


And yet lord Valadeus just summed up quite similarily what myself answered, just in another light. And to answer to your last statement, again, the same thing could be asked of Shakor, who is considered by many in the Empire - you just have to talk to the amarrian people to know that - like a 'tyrannical butcher', because at the opposite of the Empress, he has done absolutely nothing in the direction of peace, at the contrary.

N'maro Makari
Posted - 2011.07.01 01:35:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Lyn Farel
Originally by: N'maro Makari
Originally by: Lyn Farel
I do not recall having seen anyone saying that Matari's anger and feeling of injustice are baseless yersterday, though the whole channel was such a mess it was difficult to keep track on every single statement.

And if you really are looking to know why your accusations were recieved with very poor acclamation and patience by the opposed side, I ask you to read my personnal explanation that can be found here.


Well that response is frankly innacurate if you are trying to ascribe it to me. I suggest you re-read
the post.


And yet lord Valadeus just summed up quite similarily what myself answered, just in another light. And to answer to your last statement, again, the same thing could be asked of Shakor, who is considered by many in the Empire - you just have to talk to the amarrian people to know that - like a 'tyrannical butcher', because at the opposite of the Empress, he has done absolutely nothing in the direction of peace, at the contrary.


Again, you have grasped what I am saying in completely the wrong way. I am not here to debate the morality of the Republic as such. I know that Shakor can be overzealous. What i am saying is that Shakor and many of the people who follow him are NOT unjustified in their rage as has been claimed.

N'maro Makari
Posted - 2011.07.01 01:39:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: N''maro Makari on 01/07/2011 01:40:08
In one scentence, the Empire must aknowledge why the Republic is enraged before they atempt to claim the moral high ground.

There can be no peace without understanding.

Nausea
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.07.01 08:22:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: N'maro Makari


In one scentence, the Empire must aknowledge why the Republic is enraged before they atempt to claim the moral high ground.




As with all conflicts, it would be important to consider the reverse aswell...

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.01 11:38:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Nausea
Originally by: N'maro Makari


In one scentence, the Empire must aknowledge why the Republic is enraged before they atempt to claim the moral high ground.




As with all conflicts, it would be important to consider the reverse aswell...


This is exactly what I have been saying since the beginning. And in the current case scenario, even if both parties still have a lot of "acknowledging" to do, it is currently the Empire that has done the first steps, and not the contrary.

Do not try to reverse the roles, Mr Makari. It was maybe the case hundred years before, but not now.

N'maro Makari
Posted - 2011.07.01 15:22:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Lyn Farel
Originally by: Nausea
Originally by: N'maro Makari


In one scentence, the Empire must aknowledge why the Republic is enraged before they atempt to claim the moral high ground.




As with all conflicts, it would be important to consider the reverse aswell...


This is exactly what I have been saying since the beginning. And in the current case scenario, even if both parties still have a lot of "acknowledging" to do, it is currently the Empire that has done the first steps, and not the contrary.

Do not try to reverse the roles, Mr Makari. It was maybe the case hundred years before, but not now.


The roles are still the same, the Empire still holds Matari slaves, and that is the root reason behind the current troubles. There is no way around that.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.01 15:48:00 - [14]
 

The conflict may have started with the slavery issue and the subsequent rebellion of the Matari peoples. The conflict continues because the Matari continue their rebellion and the Empire continues to hold slaves.

The Empire has made an effort to ease the situation with the emancipation of a great number of slaves. The Republic has made no effort to reduce or cease hostilities until they have obtained absolute victory (the immediate and permanent release of all slaves).

If the Republic cannot take a step toward peace in response to the Empire's step toward peace, then there will be no peace. As stated above, both sides will have to compromise in order for there to be peace in the future.

We can point out each other's sins until the cluster implodes upon itself, nothing will change. We will need to work together, compromise and make positive strides in order for anything to be accomplished.

Anabella Rella
Minmatar
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.07.01 22:34:00 - [15]
 

Pilot Valadeus you've pointed to the empire's "freeing" of 9th generation slaves as if it's something to be viewed as a positive sign. I submit that it was no such thing; it was a shrewd political move on the part of Jamyl to gain a PR advantage in the court of public opinion.

Let's face facts here. Millions of ex-slaves (who after enduring 9 generations of servitude as well as religious and cultural indoctrination in the empire and were for all intents and purposes Amarrians) were unceremoniously dumped at our border with no employment, no clan or Tribe to help them, no ties at all to anything Matari and certainly no help in the transition from slave to freedom. It was a cold and calculated move designed to appear as humane and progressive, yet what it did in reality was to offload millions of people to the Republic's governmental and charitable organizations. Oh, and as a side benefit all those ex-slaves will of course continue to practice their religion and customs, effectively infiltrating the very fabric of Matari society with scores of potential rebels, all without firing a single shot. And when the project inevitably fails the imperials can point to the failure as another "reason" that the Minmatar would be better off as Amarrian subjects.

While I appreciate the efforts at moderation made by people such as yourself I feel I have to point out that it will take more than Jamyl's PR stunt to qualify as genuine progress on the part of the empire. When legitimate efforts are made by your people (who after all started this whole mess by your invasion and occupation) to show goodwill and reconciliation, I'm sure they will be reciprocated by my people.

N'maro Makari
Posted - 2011.07.01 23:34:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Raze Valadeus
The conflict may have started with the slavery issue and the subsequent rebellion of the Matari peoples. The conflict continues because the Matari continue their rebellion and the Empire continues to hold slaves.

The Empire has made an effort to ease the situation with the emancipation of a great number of slaves. The Republic has made no effort to reduce or cease hostilities until they have obtained absolute victory (the immediate and permanent release of all slaves).

If the Republic cannot take a step toward peace in response to the Empire's step toward peace, then there will be no peace. As stated above, both sides will have to compromise in order for there to be peace in the future.

We can point out each other's sins until the cluster implodes upon itself, nothing will change. We will need to work together, compromise and make positive strides in order for anything to be accomplished.


Raze, I do appreciate and welcome the Empress' actions. But very much in keeping with Sarum family traditions, she still emphasises the importance of a new reclaiming. The specifications are kept unclear but you do realise the implications of the word do you not? As well as bringing back painful memories to the Republic, a return to the reclaiming of old strikes a chord with a large section of Amarrian society.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.01 23:53:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Anabella Rella
Pilot Valadeus you've pointed to the empire's "freeing" of 9th generation slaves as if it's something to be viewed as a positive sign. I submit that it was no such thing; it was a shrewd political move on the part of Jamyl to gain a PR advantage in the court of public opinion.

Let's face facts here. Millions of ex-slaves (who after enduring 9 generations of servitude as well as religious and cultural indoctrination in the empire and were for all intents and purposes Amarrians) were unceremoniously dumped at our border with no employment, no clan or Tribe to help them, no ties at all to anything Matari and certainly no help in the transition from slave to freedom. It was a cold and calculated move designed to appear as humane and progressive, yet what it did in reality was to offload millions of people to the Republic's governmental and charitable organizations. Oh, and as a side benefit all those ex-slaves will of course continue to practice their religion and customs, effectively infiltrating the very fabric of Matari society with scores of potential rebels, all without firing a single shot. And when the project inevitably fails the imperials can point to the failure as another "reason" that the Minmatar would be better off as Amarrian subjects.

While I appreciate the efforts at moderation made by people such as yourself I feel I have to point out that it will take more than Jamyl's PR stunt to qualify as genuine progress on the part of the empire. When legitimate efforts are made by your people (who after all started this whole mess by your invasion and occupation) to show goodwill and reconciliation, I'm sure they will be reciprocated by my people.



And herein lies the crux of the matter. I must commend you for your clarity and respectful presentation of your argument.

The point is that, as you can clearly see, the same incident can be viewed in very different lights by different angles and organizations. It is near impossible to tell what is genuine and what is not. Even if efforts are made in the right direction from either side, will the other side see it as a genuine effort or will they view it as some clever ploy to gain an upper hand?

It's a circular catch either way and all we can do as continue to try and prove our individual sincerity in the hopes that the future will be paved in that light.

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.02 14:28:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Lyn Farel on 02/07/2011 14:29:29

Originally by: N'maro Makari
Originally by: Lyn Farel
Originally by: Nausea
Originally by: N'maro Makari


In one scentence, the Empire must aknowledge why the Republic is enraged before they atempt to claim the moral high ground.




As with all conflicts, it would be important to consider the reverse aswell...


This is exactly what I have been saying since the beginning. And in the current case scenario, even if both parties still have a lot of "acknowledging" to do, it is currently the Empire that has done the first steps, and not the contrary.

Do not try to reverse the roles, Mr Makari. It was maybe the case hundred years before, but not now.


The roles are still the same, the Empire still holds Matari slaves, and that is the root reason behind the current troubles. There is no way around that.


If by "root" you mean "of origin", yes. But now, it is only the ideological sugarcoat of the war.

Originally by: N'maro Makari

Raze, I do appreciate and welcome the Empress' actions. But very much in keeping with Sarum family traditions, she still emphasises the importance of a new reclaiming. The specifications are kept unclear but you do realise the implications of the word do you not? As well as bringing back painful memories to the Republic, a return to the reclaiming of old strikes a chord with a large section of Amarrian society.


There is still not a lot of clues about what this "New Reclaiming" consists of. A traditionnalist Reclaiming, like the old one ? A liberal New Reclaiming ?

You can perfectly notice too that the Empress has yet to reverse the decrees that forbid any imperial citizen to enslave people or practice slave trading outside of the imperial borders. Too much speculation around this for the sake of backing up inflammatory disputes with the Empire does not seem to be the right thing to do for me.

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.02 14:33:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Lyn Farel on 02/07/2011 14:33:23
Originally by: Anabella Rella
Pilot Valadeus you've pointed to the empire's "freeing" of 9th generation slaves as if it's something to be viewed as a positive sign. I submit that it was no such thing; it was a shrewd political move on the part of Jamyl to gain a PR advantage in the court of public opinion.

Let's face facts here. Millions of ex-slaves (who after enduring 9 generations of servitude as well as religious and cultural indoctrination in the empire and were for all intents and purposes Amarrians) were unceremoniously dumped at our border with no employment, no clan or Tribe to help them, no ties at all to anything Matari and certainly no help in the transition from slave to freedom. It was a cold and calculated move designed to appear as humane and progressive, yet what it did in reality was to offload millions of people to the Republic's governmental and charitable organizations. Oh, and as a side benefit all those ex-slaves will of course continue to practice their religion and customs, effectively infiltrating the very fabric of Matari society with scores of potential rebels, all without firing a single shot. And when the project inevitably fails the imperials can point to the failure as another "reason" that the Minmatar would be better off as Amarrian subjects.

While I appreciate the efforts at moderation made by people such as yourself I feel I have to point out that it will take more than Jamyl's PR stunt to qualify as genuine progress on the part of the empire. When legitimate efforts are made by your people (who after all started this whole mess by your invasion and occupation) to show goodwill and reconciliation, I'm sure they will be reciprocated by my people.



As much as I understand your concerns, for the simple reasons I have the same, your statement contradicts itself. You point out the dangers of releasing so many ex slaves in the wilderness and what it can cause either to the Empire, the State, the Federation, and either to the Republic, and yet you want the Empire to take more radical and "legitimate" efforts to "show goodwill and reconciliation". What do you want then ? I suppose you were not refering here to a full release of all the slaves, like many of your brethren do ?

Anabella Rella
Minmatar
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.07.02 15:23:00 - [20]
 

Of course I want what my brothers and sisters are asking for. What I'm saying though is that the two nations must first sit down and come up with a comprehensive plan to encompass the entirety of the repatriation process from the logistics of moving billions of people to cultural integration, skill training, education, housing assistance, etc. A task of this magnitude can't be hurriedly thrown together, nor can it be done unilaterally.

The empire's freeing of the 9th generation slaves did none of these things therefore, I assume it was as I stated earlier, merely a PR ploy. At the very least it was a rushed and very ill-considered half-measure.



N'maro Makari
Posted - 2011.07.02 15:27:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Lyn Farel
Edited by: Lyn Farel on 02/07/2011 14:33:23
Originally by: Anabella Rella
Pilot Valadeus you've pointed to the empire's "freeing" of 9th generation slaves as if it's something to be viewed as a positive sign. I submit that it was no such thing; it was a shrewd political move on the part of Jamyl to gain a PR advantage in the court of public opinion.

Let's face facts here. Millions of ex-slaves (who after enduring 9 generations of servitude as well as religious and cultural indoctrination in the empire and were for all intents and purposes Amarrians) were unceremoniously dumped at our border with no employment, no clan or Tribe to help them, no ties at all to anything Matari and certainly no help in the transition from slave to freedom. It was a cold and calculated move designed to appear as humane and progressive, yet what it did in reality was to offload millions of people to the Republic's governmental and charitable organizations. Oh, and as a side benefit all those ex-slaves will of course continue to practice their religion and customs, effectively infiltrating the very fabric of Matari society with scores of potential rebels, all without firing a single shot. And when the project inevitably fails the imperials can point to the failure as another "reason" that the Minmatar would be better off as Amarrian subjects.

While I appreciate the efforts at moderation made by people such as yourself I feel I have to point out that it will take more than Jamyl's PR stunt to qualify as genuine progress on the part of the empire. When legitimate efforts are made by your people (who after all started this whole mess by your invasion and occupation) to show goodwill and reconciliation, I'm sure they will be reciprocated by my people.



As much as I understand your concerns, for the simple reasons I have the same, your statement contradicts itself. You point out the dangers of releasing so many ex slaves in the wilderness and what it can cause either to the Empire, the State, the Federation, and either to the Republic, and yet you want the Empire to take more radical and "legitimate" efforts to "show goodwill and reconciliation". What do you want then ? I suppose you were not refering here to a full release of all the slaves, like many of your brethren do ?


Well this might come as a shock to you, but yes, we want sooner or later depending on who you talk to, all the slaves freed, before more generations become eclipsed. The Republic will not wait another 100 years.

As to the slaves released by Her Majesty the Empress, we feel that it would have been better if they were actually freed into the Republic, instead of just turned out into the cluster where many would experience disorientation and culture shock.

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:39:00 - [22]
 

I do not see why it would come as a shock to me : I have read and read this simple statement countless times, Mr Makari.

And no, you can't ask to free the slaves in the Republic. The Republic has definitly no right over all the slaves living in the Empire : a lot of not of Matari origin, and even the ones that are of Matari origin, be it at the 1st generation or at the 8th generation, can for a lot of them not being the slighiest 'Matari' in their mind, and willing to go elsewhere, or stay in the Empire. Unless you do not value their right to free will as you claim it to be the case, you can't tell them where to go in the first place.

Originally by: Anabella Rella
Of course I want what my brothers and sisters are asking for. What I'm saying though is that the two nations must first sit down and come up with a comprehensive plan to encompass the entirety of the repatriation process from the logistics of moving billions of people to cultural integration, skill training, education, housing assistance, etc. A task of this magnitude can't be hurriedly thrown together, nor can it be done unilaterally.

The empire's freeing of the 9th generation slaves did none of these things therefore, I assume it was as I stated earlier, merely a PR ploy. At the very least it was a rushed and very ill-considered half-measure.





This is what people like lord Valadeus or myself want, and many others as well. Yet you continue in others threads to yell at us or insult us for being hypocrites. Please forgive us if I, at least, was a bit surprised.

Though your last point is unfair in itself. I can assure you measures were taken and slave emancipation and re-integration was more or less well done in the Empire at least. You should have seen the streets of Dam Torsad just after the celebration. But you can't ask to the Empire to take care alone of the whole repatriation process for the people willing to go into the Republic and the Federation : you have to remember the context. The Empire was just recovering from the Elder invasion, and the war declaration was barely several weeks old. You really wanted the Imperial governement to take contact with the Republic for a full cooperation around slave re integration in that scenario ? I also remember that the Republic said they were taking measures to make sure that the new arrival of slaves was correctly handled (though it happened the wave was too overwhelming for them like you say). And even if that was the case : apparently the Republic was not even willing to talk anymore. It is way too easy to always point fingers in the Empire's direction.

Anabella Rella
Minmatar
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:57:00 - [23]
 

I've not yelled anything at Lord Valadeus and what I called you out on, Pilot Farel, was for something else altogether.

Be that as it may, the fact remains that what your empress did was not a show of good faith, else she would have at least warned the other nations beforehand so that the necessary preparations could have been made. If the situation was too "hot" diplomatically then communications could have been handled via third party back-channel entities so that all involved could maintain plausible deniability, yet state publicly that no negotiations were taking place with the "enemy".

There were all manner of things the empress could have done differently to make the process smoother and have a greater chance of success if her actions were sincere. The fact that she chose the course that she did speaks volumes.

Nur AlHuda
Amarr
Callide Vulpis
Posted - 2011.07.03 00:25:00 - [24]
 

Minmatar republic doesnt want peace and cant have it. We would speak about collapse of economy of epic proportions within several months if they would sign peace treaty.

The reasoning is this. The entire foundation that holds republic together is fight against amarr empire. If there would be no enemy and no goal tribes would turn against each other like they did in the past.

Most of the republican army was recruiting ex slaves, convicts and people with dubious backround. Many soldiers doesnt own property or wouldnt be able to afford it.

Entire military system was build to support and protect border supply lines including outposts and colonies. With peace treaty majority stations would be closed down to save upkeep and thriwing colonies that housed garrisons would turn to backwater planets.

Current matari goverment cant afford peace because majority of population involved in military industry or army would become unemployed with their war skills hardly for any use in post war matari society.

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.03 00:32:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Anabella Rella
I've not yelled anything at Lord Valadeus and what I called you out on, Pilot Farel, was for something else altogether.

Be that as it may, the fact remains that what your empress did was not a show of good faith, else she would have at least warned the other nations beforehand so that the necessary preparations could have been made. If the situation was too "hot" diplomatically then communications could have been handled via third party back-channel entities so that all involved could maintain plausible deniability, yet state publicly that no negotiations were taking place with the "enemy".

There were all manner of things the empress could have done differently to make the process smoother and have a greater chance of success if her actions were sincere. The fact that she chose the course that she did speaks volumes.



And yet you said this :

Farel I had thought better of you originally. I see now that you're no reform-minded free thinker, merely a agent provocateur here to stir up arguments and to be fascinated by your own addled ramblings. You're a liar and a hypocrite. You tarnish the good name of real agents of change. I'm done dealing with you and next time I see you in Arzad my weapons will be free.

As to why I called you an argumentative hypocrite one need merely look back over what you've posted within the last month or so. You've taken an increasingly strident tone and seem to enjoy playing the contrarian for no other purpose than to generate controversy, or as my father used to say, "talking just to hear your head rattle".

This, seems to me pretty clear that I was called a liar and hypocrite for "doing nothing but talking". Which was precisely the point, by the way, to be heard.

As for the Empress, this does not "speaks volumes" to me. This is merely speculation. A valid one, but merely speculation and one point of view. A lot of counter arguments could be given, and they would also be speculation, unless the people telling them being in the close confidents of the Empress herself.

Sinjin Mokk
Stillwater Corporation
Posted - 2011.07.04 05:09:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Anabella Rella
Of course I want what my brothers and sisters are asking for. What I'm saying though is that the two nations must first sit down and come up with a comprehensive plan to encompass the entirety of the repatriation process from the logistics of moving billions of people to cultural integration, skill training, education, housing assistance, etc. A task of this magnitude can't be hurriedly thrown together, nor can it be done unilaterally.

The empire's freeing of the 9th generation slaves did none of these things therefore, I assume it was as I stated earlier, merely a PR ploy. At the very least it was a rushed and very ill-considered half-measure.




This is laughable.

You whine and beg the Empire to free Matari and when the Empress, in an historic display of compassion actually releases an entire generation of Matari, you say it was a PR stunt?

Iíve said countless times that the Republic government has no ability to properly care for itís people. Iíve said over and over that free Matari suffer because the Republic insists on wasting itís resources to maintain a war machine beyond the capabilities of itís economy to fight a war it cannot win. Iíve illustrated countless times how the Matari would be better served if even a percentage of those resources were put to education, employment, healthcare and appropriate housing and integration.

Now, not only do you say that my words are right, that the Republic cannot take care of itís own people, you now claim it is the responsibility of the Empire to feed, clothe, educate and care for the Matari once weíve freed them?

Perhaps the Empress should free all the Matari and ship them across the border. Then a week or so later the Imperial Navy can fly in and rescue the entire Matari people from starvation and chaos. YesÖI can see it now. The war could be over in a matter of a few months.

You are right. Your Republic is incapable of managing its own affairs. But if you want the freedom to govern yourselves outside of Imperial control, you must accept the responsibility that is inherent with that freedom. If you want the Empire to provide for your quality of life, then you must accept Imperial rule and all that goes with it.

Perhaps it would be better for all Matari, slave and freemen, to exist under Imperial rule. Because, by your own admission, the Matari are clearly incapable of governing themselves.



Gosakumori Noh
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2011.07.04 06:48:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Anabella Rella
Be that as it may, the fact remains that what your empress did was not a show of good faith, else she would have at least warned the other nations beforehand so that the necessary preparations could have been made.



Mr. Mokk beat me to the point as I composed this, but far be it from me to refrain from stating an opinion, anyway...

Her Majesty is not responsible for Matari intelligence and infrastructure shortcomings. In fact, her action demonstrated the Republic remains fundamentally incapable of realizing its ostensible goal.

Perhaps counter-intuitively, establishing that fact moves the ball forward. Two nations at war are under no obligation to "warn" one another about anything. By normalizing relations, however, the two powers might create a framework not only for the Republic to receive "warnings" about future releases, but also for it to receive assistance with the logistics such releases entail.

Consequently, Her Majesty's gesture should serve as a teachable moment to anyone who looked closely: normalizing relations will help the Republic deal with the eventuality it purports to seek.

Now we come to the fiction of the Republic's objective.

Slavery serves as a tool of assimilation for the Amarr. It worked well with many conquered civilizations, particularly the Ni-Kunni and Khanid. It worked less well with the Minmatar. Even without slavery, however, Amarr retains that root culture others are assimilated into - and most importantly, her Faith. Emancipation threatens Amarr's elites with nothing more than temporary economic inconvenience.

For the Minmatar government, however, slavery is a tool of social distraction. Problems in the Republic can be glossed over by pointing at Amarr. Without that deflection, how will the elites keep their citizenry from demanding greater freedom from their own, local rulers?

Elites dislike change because there is a chance they may be displaced. The Empress demonstrated that she does not need slavery to retain power. I submit the Minmatar elite do need slavery to retain power, and actively work to prolong that institution - all under the jingo of "total emancipation or death." Conveniently, this extends their hold over their own people.

I believe there is a word for that...

Anabella Rella
Minmatar
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.07.04 16:29:00 - [28]
 

Just because you bigots continue to repeat the same lies over and over again doesn't make them the truth. The fact that people aren't departing the Republic in droves for greener pastures says all anyone needs to know about the state of affairs in our nation. We're all doing pretty well, no thanks to the likes of you. As to my assertion that your empress was simply making a shrewd political move and playing to the court of public opinion, I stand by it.

I'd honestly expected a bit better from a Khanid, Mokk.

Oh well, I see that reason and intelligence have left the conversation so I'll depart as well and leave others to waste their time on the likes of Mokk and Noh.

Gosakumori Noh
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2011.07.04 19:27:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Anabella Rella
Oh well, I see that reason and intelligence have left the conversation so I'll depart as well and leave others to waste their time on the likes of Mokk and Noh.


Yes, of course, dear. It comes as no surprise that a member of your organization would take such a position, given that the singular reason for any of its members to speak is to present some tragic complaint about slavery. You cry about "PR" and demand "warnings" when you get what you presumably want, but are too intellectually stunted to understand that thinking people might recognize them as partial solutions to a larger problem.

Absent slavery, however, your monotonous collection of bohemians would be as devoid of purpose as the Matari political class, and so you work tirelessly to ensure there can be no solution. Beyond simple "PR," Her Majesty demonstrated that she was strong, the Republic was weak, and that Electus Matari needs better writers.

All around, quite a successful stunt, that.

N'maro Makari
Posted - 2011.07.17 17:15:00 - [30]
 

Clearly the purpose of the message has been lost as Matari come here to start a fight and the Amarr attempt to washt their hands of any wrongdoing.

Is Slavery used as propaganda in the Republic? Yes, yes it is.

But that doesnt make it untrue. No.

The Matari are not warmongers. Many have become such, due to the actions of the Empire.

The Empire is responsible for the hate in recieves. Freeing less than 10% of Matari slaves is no good when our people are still kept in breeder facilities, are still worked to the bone on agricultural colonies, are still experimented on like lab animals, and still have Vitoxin put into their bodies as a matter of routine.

The Ammarrians simply cannot claim Matari have no reason to be angry, nor can it be claimed that they have much reason to be any more placated than they are (I remind you all that the Emancipation Proclamation came after the Elder invasion).

Peace is possible but only if the Empire acknowledges that it has done wrong.

The Elder Fleet was a result of the Empire's wrongs, not the other way round. This does not justify the innocent casualties however.


 

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