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blankseplocked CCP: Please implement Non-vanity items, and heres why
 
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Cataca
Posted - 2011.06.30 05:30:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Cataca on 30/06/2011 05:37:35
Originally by: Terminal Insanity
Edited by: Terminal Insanity on 30/06/2011 05:26:29
Originally by: Cataca

How about backing up your own theories instead of speaking out of nowhere? I know im just demanding here, but hey, if you please im a steady follower.

I have backed up my theories with examples in my original post, and a post not too far above this one.

It is the anti-nex people who have yet to present a reasonable argument against non-vanity items. All they've shown so far is their mindless rage.



My statement Take of it what you will. I doubt you would change your post no matter how smart the arguments are.Rolling Eyes

Rosa Cardenalis
Posted - 2011.06.30 05:32:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Jimmy Duce
Originally by: Rosa Cardenalis
Can someone actually explain to me why this wouldn't work or would break the economy? It looks fine to me.



It's not breaking the economy, it is breaking the entire game. Many of us play Eve because it is skill and time and effort that leads to a successful or atleast entertaining outcome. Changing that by putting $ into game changing items breaks that desire to fight back, it makes fighting back without $ seemingly unfair and so people quit.


I refuse to play a game where I have to pay, and then pay again to compete and apparently so do many others.


I get that, but its already here and has been for some time in the form of GTC/PLEX for isk, character bazaar and multiple accounts.

All these things give a large advantage to people willing to pay more.

The counter argument to that has been that having items appear from nowhere for RL cash would break the economy. But if it also requires in game items wouldn't that help. I'm sure it would have an effect on the economy but I dont see how it would break it.

Jimmy Duce
Chaotic Tranquility
Posted - 2011.06.30 05:42:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Rosa Cardenalis
Originally by: Jimmy Duce
Originally by: Rosa Cardenalis
Can someone actually explain to me why this wouldn't work or would break the economy? It looks fine to me.



It's not breaking the economy, it is breaking the entire game. Many of us play Eve because it is skill and time and effort that leads to a successful or atleast entertaining outcome. Changing that by putting $ into game changing items breaks that desire to fight back, it makes fighting back without $ seemingly unfair and so people quit.


I refuse to play a game where I have to pay, and then pay again to compete and apparently so do many others.


I get that, but its already here and has been for some time in the form of GTC/PLEX for isk, character bazaar and multiple accounts.

All these things give a large advantage to people willing to pay more.

The counter argument to that has been that having items appear from nowhere for RL cash would break the economy. But if it also requires in game items wouldn't that help. I'm sure it would have an effect on the economy but I dont see how it would break it.



Yes it would help which is why I'm not arguing the economic point, my main point is I do not wish to play a game where you pay $ and are better.


Xydonus Xavior
Posted - 2011.06.30 05:45:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Jimmy Duce
Yes it would help which is why I'm not arguing the economic point, my main point is I do not wish to play a game where you pay $ and are better


That's done already though in the form of plex. Buy a plex, sell a plex, get your isk, gain your advantage. Already implemented.

Terminal Insanity
Minmatar
Convex Enterprises
Posted - 2011.06.30 05:49:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Jimmy Duce

Yes it would help which is why I'm not arguing the economic point, my main point is I do not wish to play a game where you pay $ and are better.




You already do. PLEX allows a brand new player to be instantly better then you, both in isk, skills and ships.

Cataca
Posted - 2011.06.30 05:49:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Xydonus Xavior
Originally by: Jimmy Duce
Yes it would help which is why I'm not arguing the economic point, my main point is I do not wish to play a game where you pay $ and are better


That's done already though in the form of plex. Buy a plex, sell a plex, get your isk, gain your advantage. Already implemented.



Fundamental differences between MT and RMT not included.

Rosa Cardenalis
Posted - 2011.06.30 05:50:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Cataca
Originally by: Xydonus Xavior
Originally by: Jimmy Duce
Yes it would help which is why I'm not arguing the economic point, my main point is I do not wish to play a game where you pay $ and are better


That's done already though in the form of plex. Buy a plex, sell a plex, get your isk, gain your advantage. Already implemented.



Fundamental differences between MT and RMT not included.


which are what?

Aelyn A
Dewa Brotherhood
Bang Bang You're Dead
Posted - 2011.06.30 05:54:00 - [38]
 

When non vanity items come into play, people would want it to have the advantage in game fueling more and more desire to buy these items with AUR in a vicous cycle. More and more PLEX will be bought with isk to obtain more AUR. The number of 'Rich' people in this game is finite. Demand for PLEX will increase compared to its supply. PLEX prices go up and up. People who make in game isk to sub has to make more isk to sub and compete. Since the uber items are bought with AUR the demand for player made items drop making player made item prices drop. eg. NEX ammo requires T1 ammo, so T2 and faction ammo prices drop. Less money making for LP farmers and BPC researchers. The earnings per hour drops for most players who use isk to sub.

However, people also have a finite play time. At some point they'll have to sacifice their irl to spend more time in game until they simply cannot get the isk to compete. They'll either quit or die playing the game non-stop except for 1 hour DT of rest a day.

One possible solution is to make non vanity items only available at major hubs. Not in every station and also these items can drop just like any other items. So the people who aren't NEX customers can blow up the NEX customers ships for the items. The 'Rich' can afford to buy more ammos and the gankers can get NEX ammo for cheap. Seems fair

Rosa Cardenalis
Posted - 2011.06.30 05:58:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Aelyn A
NEX ammo requires T1 ammo, so T2 and faction ammo prices drop. Less money making for LP farmers and BPC researchers.


What if nex ammo requires T2 or Faction?

I gues what you are saying in your post could happen, but a hell of a lot would depend on what was implemented and how much of an advantage it would really give you, and would also probably change over time.

Terminal Insanity
Minmatar
Convex Enterprises
Posted - 2011.06.30 06:02:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Aelyn A
NEX ammo requires T1 ammo, so T2 and faction ammo prices drop. Less money making for LP farmers and BPC researchers.


Where did CCP release this?
Or is this again, just another case of mindless speculation and fear-mongering?

Fact is, you have no idea how they'll implement it,,, or even if they WILL implement it. But dont let that stop you from typing up fantastical stories about CCP plans to murder eve etc, carry on peasant

Aelyn A
Dewa Brotherhood
Bang Bang You're Dead
Posted - 2011.06.30 06:10:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Terminal Insanity
. Just one example: Require a trade-up of a player-built item in addition to Aur for the non-vanity item.



Eg. means example. Where that came from? It came from you

Its just a scenario, means just what could happen, not will happen. I don't care much about MT as i can afford MT atm but i would like to blow up as many NEX customers ship for NEX loot if possible. I hope CCP would make suicide ganking really worthwhile.

Asudem
Posted - 2011.06.30 06:17:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Asudem on 30/06/2011 06:26:16
Originally by: Jimmy Duce
Originally by: Rosa Cardenalis
Can someone actually explain to me why this wouldn't work or would break the economy? It looks fine to me.



It's not breaking the economy, it is breaking the entire game. Many of us play Eve because it is skill and time and effort that leads to a successful or atleast entertaining outcome. Changing that by putting $ into game changing items breaks that desire to fight back, it makes fighting back without $ seemingly unfair and so people quit.


I refuse to play a game where I have to pay, and then pay again to compete and apparently so do many others.


With GTC $ are already into this game and many people dont pay because there skill allows them to buy that GTC ingame for ISK. So as the PLEX, some else buys it and sells it for ISK, just like the PLEX.

The price of non-vanity items matters. If the price is high enough, you can see those items like new Officer modules which costs some billions of ISK - most people will not get enough money to buy them. It wouldnt effect the economy in any way since it is much too expensive for PvP-Fittings so producing items like T2 weapons or drones will still be lucrative. Maybe it wont be touched by this at all. So I see any gaemplay mechanism thats been affected in the negative way and I dont mind a NeX-Store with non-vanity items in this case. Skill ect. is still the most important thing, otherwise you will loose those stuff in no-time.

On the other hand, if the $ price is too low, it definitivly damages the game. So I hope CCP is not dumb enough to lower the prices just to attract people to waste their $ / / whatever. And if that would be the case, I really could understand the riot against CCP.

*EDIT*
This requires that those Item really will have a gameplay advantage like more rate of Fire, damage mod ect. If they would sell regular items, it could damage the game as well - depending on the price again.

Terminal Insanity
Minmatar
Convex Enterprises
Posted - 2011.06.30 06:18:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Aelyn A
Originally by: Terminal Insanity
. Just one example: Require a trade-up of a player-built item in addition to Aur for the non-vanity item.



Eg. means example. Where that came from? It came from you

Its just a scenario, means just what could happen, not will happen. I don't care much about MT as i can afford MT atm but i would like to blow up as many NEX customers ship for NEX loot if possible. I hope CCP would make suicide ganking really worthwhile.


Correct. Its an idea. An idea that actually is supported by CCP in their devblogs, when they admitted they wanted to sell a small number of painted Scorpions "out of thin air" and then immediatly admitted they did not like this, and wanted to tie it into the current economy so that manufacturers dont get cut out.

You are willing to argue that my point is invalid because its an "example" well, why is your argument that ships will spawn out of nowhere? That is equally a theoretical example. The difference between mine and yours is CCP has already stated their views on this subject and it reflects my example.

Rosa Cardenalis
Posted - 2011.06.30 06:25:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Asudem
Originally by: Jimmy Duce
Originally by: Rosa Cardenalis
Can someone actually explain to me why this wouldn't work or would break the economy? It looks fine to me.


On the other hand, if the $ price is too low, it definitivly damages the game. So I hope CCP is not dumb enough to lower the prices just to attract people to waste their $ / / whatever. And if that would be the case, I really could understand the riot against CCP.


Given the cost of a monicle I think it is very unlikely that the price for anything that gives in game advantage would be low, but of course it is not impossible.

However, if there is loads of this stuff about because it is cheap and gives a decent boost, won't there be loads on the market for a small amount of isk? I guess that is not certain either but it seems likely to me.

Cataca
Posted - 2011.06.30 06:29:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Rosa Cardenalis

which are what?


Plex in itself are market neutral, all you really do is giving someone rl money (in the sense of subs for the legal RMT) to farm a certain ammount of isk. It is still restricted by the market, and controlled by it. If you try to outfit an alliance, the market has to supply it in the first place, not to speak of the isk value detoriation because you dumped a bunch of them.

Everyone in the market is involved here. The idustrialists, the t2 researchers, lp farmers, logistics, complex farmers, belt ratters.. and many sidejobs i heavnt even thought of. All people that get their enjoyment of this game from the many facets it has.

Compared to where you just spawn something.

Or if you are into that thing, lets start a thought experiment.
Imagine CCP implements the MT store in a way that will let you outfit a fleet, completely of partly. In 0.0 warfare some alliance will fight against someone, and lose (by what margin is unimportant). They have stored a large number of plex in a nearby npc 0.0 system, or some lowsec system. They will be able to resupply instantly and resume the attack.

Normaly, they would have to haul their crap there, get it manufactured and all that. In this case they will just be attacked again by another alliance that can afford to resupply again. It will initiate a spiral even worse than the cluster**** that is 0.0 warfare now.

Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.06.30 06:29:00 - [46]
 

well I say, I hope I can pimp out my Domi


Rosa Cardenalis
Posted - 2011.06.30 07:07:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Cataca
Originally by: Rosa Cardenalis

which are what?


Plex in itself are market neutral...


Ok I see the difference, but all of that is circumvented by making the process also require an in game item as already discussed.

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Amarr
Divine Power.
Atlas.
Posted - 2011.06.30 07:11:00 - [48]
 

Edited by: Nicolo da''Vicenza on 30/06/2011 07:11:13
Originally by: Rosa Cardenalis
Originally by: Cataca
Originally by: Rosa Cardenalis

which are what?


Plex in itself are market neutral...


Ok I see the difference, but all of that is circumvented by making the process also require an in game item as already discussed.

I agree. Aurum items should require their Estamel equivalents that already outperform their MT-counterparts in every way.

Na'av
Posted - 2011.06.30 07:13:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: "Terminal Insanity"
First and foremost, it would probably cause a lot of crybabies to quit.

If all the crybabies quit, who will fuel my ships?

Kindergarden economics gentlemen:
I made something for free that no one else has, I'm going to charge a lot for it and make pure profit.

The problem with the price is rather serious. 59.85 USD for a monocle using battleclinic GTCs at 52 in 2 days is 3112.2 USD. CCP would have done better selling it for a dollar and having 10% of eve players buy into it in 2 days. Because it's a virtual item, you can make it perishable. In which case people will buy it several times in a few months or for several jump clones. This would have been a better idea.

Your idea, on the other hand,
Originally by: "Terminal Insanity"
Just one example: Require a trade-up of a player-built item in addition to Aur for the non-vanity item.

makes the LP system redundant as well as the regular economy. You're just grinding LP with CCP by giving them money/plex and they call their LP Aur.

The NEX system is redundant. You said it yourself.
Originally by: "Terminal Insanity"
(Again, no different then buying GTC and then selling it for a Machariel.)

It already existed in the game, and was used regularly. However there's a limited supply of Machariel and other faction and shiny stuff on the market that a person can buy. Aur removes the idea of supply because everything in the NEX store is unlimited. So, everyone who makes their money off grinding up the LP, grabbing a mach bpc and running a build to sell on market loses out to the NEX store who always has a supply of their mach.

If you want my real opinion. CCP Flooded the market with isk because of incursions and is looking for a heavy money sink to try and speed things back to normal - without removing or tweaking the incursion system. And their marketing team ran with idea.

El'Niaga
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.06.30 07:19:00 - [50]
 

Absolutely not, undermines industry.

Destroy that core and you destroy the game (just like if you removed non consensual pvp from the game would kill it.).

Cataca
Posted - 2011.06.30 07:25:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Rosa Cardenalis
Originally by: Cataca
Originally by: Rosa Cardenalis

which are what?


Plex in itself are market neutral...


Ok I see the difference, but all of that is circumvented by making the process also require an in game item as already discussed.


Cute. How?

Sure its minimal as it is now, but the MT store allready pumps value in the market. If you think of the entire market, you have plex in there that in its current form means that money changes hands. No aditional value added or reduced.

If you however buy a plex AND buy a MT asset and throw it on the market, you suddenly add something of a certain monetary worth to it. In itself this couldnt possibly have negative reprecussions on the market. (or it might have, economy is as far from my study as can be). But after time it will introduce more and more value in the market for "nothing" (because in the eve market, your real world assets arnt counted) this will lead to devaluation of ISK however you spin it. It doesnt actually matter what you put in the market really.

Blueprints will certainly slow it down, but will never stop it entirely as long as things are sellable on the market.

Kiran
Minmatar
Knights of Azrael
Anti-Social Outcast
Posted - 2011.06.30 07:27:00 - [52]
 

The selling of non-vanity items in the NeX will break the in game market for the traders and industrialist not only that but will also change the way sov warefare is played out.

Basically if you got the RL money to burn your going to win. So therefore setting up a lower class and middle class of players. Those that can afford to buy that special Jove ship off the NeX store and those that can't.

Eventually though that special jove ship will get blown up and you will have to buy another off the NeX store at another 150 to 300 estimated cost as a monocle is 60. And the normal people of the world do not have that kind of money to throw around. So again it boils down to the rich kids being able to gain and hold sov because they can afford the "gold ammo".

CCP wants only the rich people to play Eve from what I have read on their emails and leaked newsletters and the avergae Eve player does not fit that bill, so we are being priced out of a game we all love and enjoy. And its the people like the OP and others who buy these stupid vanity items thats reinforcing CCP's commitment to moving the NeX store forwards.

Ciar Meara
Amarr
Virtus Vindice
Posted - 2011.06.30 07:29:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Terminal Insanity

The argument that it would break the ingame economy? It wont. Why? Because there are countless ways to implement this without breaking the economy. Just one example: Require a trade-up of a player-built item in addition to Aur for the non-vanity item.



"at the moment the aur shop cannot accept any currency or trade in other then aur"

"this will we looked at in the future" =(soonTM)

If you want to talk to talk, you'd better read what CCP themselves say.

Florestan Bronstein
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2011.06.30 07:31:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 30/06/2011 07:34:51
Originally by: El'Niaga
No

This would undermine the industrialists, and ultimately lead to the death of EVE.

obvious solution: just sell the BPCs in the NeX.

Originally by: Ciar Meara
"at the moment the aur shop cannot accept any currency or trade in other then aur"

"this will we looked at in the future" =(soonTM)

If you want to talk to talk, you'd better read what CCP themselves say.

CCP have already invested in the Ishokune Watch Scorpion. That investment will only pay off once they have implemented the trade-in facility.

This thread is talking about strategic direction - if we have to wait 2-3 months for our AUR weapons that's no big deal.


Tla Atij
Posted - 2011.06.30 07:34:00 - [55]
 

There's a reverse to the NeX machariel too. If a monocle is $70, a machariel would probably a (tiny bit) more. So assume you pimp out your new shiny NeX ship with all kinds of NeX modules, spending $300 on all of it. You plan to only run missions in 1.0.

What happens when people spot your juicy ship and 15 brutixes blow you out of the sky in 1.0? I'll tell you what. You'll quit. Sure, you made CCP $300 richer, but unless they make ships indestructible (or make them respawn when they are destroyed) people will quit in droves after being ganked like that.

I don't think CCP wants that. And I don't think they'll give out indestructible or respawning ships either.

Florestan Bronstein
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2011.06.30 07:37:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 30/06/2011 07:45:58
Originally by: Tla Atij
There's a reverse to the NeX machariel too. If a monocle is $70, a machariel would probably a (tiny bit) more. So assume you pimp out your new shiny NeX ship with all kinds of NeX modules, spending $300 on all of it. You plan to only run missions in 1.0.

What happens when people spot your juicy ship and 15 brutixes blow you out of the sky in 1.0? I'll tell you what. You'll quit. Sure, you made CCP $300 richer, but unless they make ships indestructible (or make them respawn when they are destroyed) people will quit in droves after being ganked like that.

I don't think CCP wants that. And I don't think they'll give out indestructible or respawning ships either.

At that point you have already earned CCP much more money than the average subscriber (not sure about the source for these claims but "6-8 months" is the number floating around as the average time a player sticks with eve - that would translate to only ~100$).

Once these 300$ place you at the lower end of the "revenue per subscriber" scale CCP can spend resources looking into how to prevent you from quitting.
Until then they're just fine with your decision.

El'Niaga
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.06.30 07:41:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Florestan Bronstein
Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 30/06/2011 07:34:51
Originally by: El'Niaga
No

This would undermine the industrialists, and ultimately lead to the death of EVE.

obvious solution: just sell the BPCs in the NeX.

Originally by: Ciar Meara
"at the moment the aur shop cannot accept any currency or trade in other then aur"

"this will we looked at in the future" =(soonTM)

If you want to talk to talk, you'd better read what CCP themselves say.

CCP have already invested in the Ishokune Watch Scorpion. That investment will only pay off once they have implemented the trade-in facility.

This thread is talking about strategic direction - if we have to wait 2-3 months for our AUR weapons that's no big deal.




While BPCs is preferred over actual items, I can't help but think it'll hurt inventors.

Cataca
Posted - 2011.06.30 07:42:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Tla Atij
There's a reverse to the NeX machariel too. If a monocle is $70, a machariel would probably a (tiny bit) more. So assume you pimp out your new shiny NeX ship with all kinds of NeX modules, spending $300 on all of it. You plan to only run missions in 1.0.

What happens when people spot your juicy ship and 15 brutixes blow you out of the sky in 1.0? I'll tell you what. You'll quit. Sure, you made CCP $300 richer, but unless they make ships indestructible (or make them respawn when they are destroyed) people will quit in droves after being ganked like that.

I don't think CCP wants that. And I don't think they'll give out indestructible or respawning ships either.


Sure, stupid people are everywhere, but with the old system at least the market had a role to play.

I really dont understand why people have such difficulties accepting that the guys building your ships are an important piece of the economy.

Tla Atij
Posted - 2011.06.30 07:43:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Florestan Bronstein

At that point you have already earned CCP much more money than the average subscriber (not sure about the source for these claims but "6-8 months" is the number floating around as average subscription length - that would translate to only ~100$).

Once these 300$ place you at the lower end of the "revenue per subscriber" scale CCP can spend resources looking into how to prevent you from quitting.
Until then they're just fine with your decision.

Fair enough. Knowing the mentality of eve players, there will probably be intel channels for NeX ships spotters. Probably whole corporations whose mission is to harvest as many tears and as many NeX killmails possible. Griefing will get a whole new dimension.

I'm getting happy in the pants only thinking about it. Twisted EvilYARRRR!!Twisted Evil

Tla Atij
Posted - 2011.06.30 07:48:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Cataca
I really dont understand why people have such difficulties accepting that the guys building your ships are an important piece of the economy.


It's not that big a deal anyway. NPC goods already circumvent player industry. They have no BPOs, they're unlimited in amount and are seeded on the market by CCP. Just as NeX BPCs would be.

And if the AUR cost of the BPC is set reasonably higher than its regular counterpart, they won't compete due to price range. In fact, industrialists will be even in more demand than before, because there will be more ships to build.


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