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blankseplocked Why worry about power MT when PLEX are already "buy to win"?
 
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.29 21:40:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Takseen

Oh I see. PLEX don't inject extra items to the market, they just allow it to be shuffled from the $ rich, time poor players to the $ poor, time rich players. Yes it is quite clever. Although unfortunately for CCP its also less effective at generating extra revenue for them.



False. Every GTC sold to purchase PLEX lands in CCP's bank account and not in a blackmarket RMT "gold farmer's" bank account.

Originally by: Takseen

I suppose the question is about which part of microtransactions bother you. If you're a $ poor person that doesn't like to get beaten by $ rich people, you might dislike PLEX *and* MT. If you don't like your player market sandbox being messed up, you'll love PLEX and hate MT.


The fallacy of 'False Dilemma'. Wrong, try again.

cyndrogen
Posted - 2011.06.29 21:44:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Bootleg Jack
Magically appearing like an LP item.

There is nothing new except the drama...



I'm pretty certain LP items are not just something that APPEAR.
Some have ISK costs, and most require player time to grind to earn LP points since they cannot be bought.

I think you don't understand the fundamental difference of time and money.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.06.29 21:48:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 29/06/2011 21:52:14
Originally by: Malcanis
OK I made a pretty long post detailing exactly how there are real non-psychological differences. Did you read it, or did you just reply to the thread title? (It's OK to admit this, we've all done it)

U Mad? I am not reading walls of text for a while (skimming only) after last weekend, going to cost a fortune to restore my sanity. Very Happy

Yes there are non-psych differences but they evaporate the further down the chain you go.
Were items bought from NeX store then the only thing you bypass is redistribution of ISK in game as some ratter is left with his merchandise .. but then you have that to some extent with the LP stores which can also create items from thin air.

Plex made ISK = Cash. If you have either you can buy Win™ (necessary evil to help keep RMT in check).
If you look at Eve in its entirety then all of the things that a full-blown MT store would add are already present .. it is just 2-3 links down the chain.

Hence the primary difference being psych in nature.
Originally by: cyndrogen
I'm pretty certain LP items are not just something that APPEAR....

But where is the difference in spending AUR to get a specific instanced rat spawn and running missions and getting an item from LP store?
And once you go there, why then not sell the potential drop directly?

That is the slippery slope that has to be fought, not the store itself, but what it might become in the wrong hands .. and what I think the CSM is painfully aware of.

Maplestone
Myth and Peace Lords
Posted - 2011.06.29 21:51:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Maplestone on 29/06/2011 21:58:11
Originally by: Jennifer Starling

* CCP earns $2.50 ($17.50 plex price - $15.00 loss for 30 day sub)



That assumes that every account (main or alt) which runs on PLEX will convert to a paid subscription which I think is highly unlikely. If one takes the opposite assumption, that all PLEX-funded accounts are only still open because PLEX exists, the loss is only the marginal cost of an active account (which isn't $0, but is probably not too far away from it).

Takseen
Posted - 2011.06.29 21:56:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Maplestone
Edited by: Maplestone on 29/06/2011 21:52:03
Originally by: Jennifer Starling

* CCP earns $2.50 ($17.50 plex price - $15.00 loss for 30 day sub)



That assumes that every account (main or alt) which runs an account on PLEX will convert to a paid subscription which I think is highly unlikely. If one takes the opposite assumption, that all PLEX-funded accounts are only still open because PLEX exists, the loss is only the marginal cost of an active account (which isn't $0, but is probably not too far away from it).


Indeed. I think the truth is somewhere inbetween. There's probably people who are willing to pay a subscription fee, but just use PLEX instead because they've got ludicrous amounts of ISK and would rather spend the $15 a month on something else.

Ariel Nova
Posted - 2011.06.29 21:56:00 - [36]
 

OP needs to read the other 1 million threads explaining the difference between
the NeX store PLEX sink and trading Game Time for chars and isk.

(hint: it's how the former bypasses the players in this sandbox)

NoobPwn
Posted - 2011.06.29 22:02:00 - [37]
 


ISK does not come from nowhere, sources including mission rewards and NPC buy orders, which is universially controlled. Players can only have a certain amount of missions done in a certain period of time, rats spawn every so often, etc.

As for trading PLEX in game, you ultimately trade it with the time to build/drop the stuff you bought, because you will literally get it at no other cost but time to interact with the game mechanism, but MT for item is going beyond that, you creating stuff out of game mechanism and costs no time.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.06.29 22:03:00 - [38]
 

Only two problems in OP's reasoning.

1. The assumption that the existence of PLEX (and GTC sales) does not affect the amount of ISK in EVE.
That assumption is just flat out patently false.

Sure, ISK might not have been just spawned into existence because of it, but QUITE A FEW PEOPLE DO WORK EXTRA compared to what they would have normally worked just to get that extra ISK.
Now, while a portion of the players that do work extra do not actually tap ISK from an ISK faucet, quite a few of them actually do, in particular mission-runners, ratters and people who run complexes. All that ISK coming from faucets ? Extra ISK that could have just as well have been just spawned.
But wait, the rest of the population that does not tap the ISK faucets surely can't possibly affect the economy negatively in any way, shape or form, no ?
Actually, they do. Even a manufacturer or an inventor who works just a little bit extra to cover whatever needs he has PLUS whatever a PLEX costs will affect the economy by ever so slightly lowering the profit of other manufacturers and inventors.

Basically, the only people that purchase PLEX to pay for their sub who DO NOT affect the balance of the economy in any way at all are those that already have so much ISK that they have no idea what the hell to use it all on, and are just making more only when bored or when they feel like it. The ones that do NOT do any EXTRA work just to keep the PLEX rolling.


2. The assumption that if CCP sold ISK, the smaller the price, the larger the revenue.
This is much trickier than the previous one, and the previous one was not quite straightforward either.
And it comes in multiple parts.

Let's start at the current level, say a round 20 mil ISK per USD (or 350m per PLEX equivalent, compared to 370 mil you can get about now, or better said, around 362 mil after default sales tax and broker fee on a no-standings minimal skills alt).
Volumes of PLEX purchased would not change much (some might switch for convenience reasons, but not many), numbers of PLEX subscribers will remain largely the same, total revenue will be mostly unaffected.

They up the price to, say 40 mil ISK per USD (or 700 mil per PLEX equivalent).
Unless in-game PLEX prices would quickly adapt and go to at least 714 mil ISK (you get around 700 mil for that after default sales tax and broker fee) or preferably even more, PLEX purchased would dry up quite fast, replaced by direct ISK purchases from CCP.
The very funny thing here however would be that very likely, PLEX prices WOULD NOT go up to that level very fast, thanks to existing PLEX stockpiles and people who don't actually hold them for self-use, but rather resale. It would take quite a while for PLEX prices to go that high, but meanwhile, PLEX-fueled accounts would start unsubscribing. Granted, this does not really affect CCP's bottom line JUST YET, but they slowly inflate mineral-related, PI-related, RP-related and other S&I-related prices.
At the same time, EACH INDIVIDUAL that used to purchase PLEX now no longer purchases the same amount of PLEX on average as he used to do, since prices for everything don't also go up by the same percentage, even after all PLEX users have dried up.
Some extra people might be tempted to also buy some PLEX, but it is unknown how many. Overall, it is not certain that CCP would actually make more money than they used to make before, but at least they don't have to contend with leftover PLEX stockpiles.
But they'd have a noticeably smaller userbase.

Go up much higher in ISK per USD, and the proportion of price hikes starts to get closer to the rate of price hikes, but never quite the same.
Almost everybody is a cash subscriber now, and quite a few buy ISK instead of doing work.
But overall, you would have even less subscribers, since those unwilling to purchase ISK and just work for it would have quit.
Overall, you might not make a lot more money than you do now.

Templar Dane
Amarr
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2011.06.29 22:10:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Jennifer Starling

Definitely. PLEX is legalized RMT with some extra profit for CCP.
I definitely don't approve.

But well, it's not my game ..


An evil, yes, but a necessary one.

While it cheapens the game experience, it does prevent a lot of RMT.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.06.29 22:16:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Only two problems in OP's reasoning.

1. The assumption that the existence of PLEX (and GTC sales) does not affect the amount of ISK in EVE.
That assumption is just flat out patently false.

Sure, ISK might not have been just spawned into existence because of it, but QUITE A FEW PEOPLE DO WORK EXTRA compared to what they would have normally worked just to get that extra ISK.



This is trivially obvious: player B works to make an extra 400M ISK a month.

But, and this is important: Player A doesn't.

Additionally, player B does not necessarily make his ISK in ISK-creating ways. If Player B makes his ISK by eg: Invention, then no new ISK is created.

Overall the PLEX system causes a moderate expansion of the EVE economy, but there's no explicit reason for it to cause a disproportionate amount of extra ISK to be created.

Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.29 22:20:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Barbara Nichole on 29/06/2011 22:21:57

Much of the Micro-Tranaction idea is what makes many free-to-play games unbearable to play. Sure they're tempting at first, but after a month of the impossible grind or pay "attitude" most quit. Fairness is out the window when your abilities are governed by how much outside currency you can bring to bare. Would CCP be tempted to fall into this trap? "Level 6 missions seem impossibly hard to solo.. unless you buy your T4 ship from the item store.." I offer that this is a slippery slope that even CCP will not be able to avoid if they start down that path.

Now, Plex was a compromise to fight RMT happening that was ruining game play for many; it is not a perfect solution and brings its own problems (inflation). Still, at least players are not changing the fundimentals of manufacture speed, skilling speed, logistical and tactical advantage, or cutting out buyer and seller middlemen by using plex.

Templar Dane
Amarr
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2011.06.29 22:26:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida

But where is the difference in spending AUR to get a specific instanced rat spawn and running missions and getting an item from LP store?
And once you go there, why then not sell the potential drop directly?



It's hardly different than mining. Sure, the activity is much different but you "mine" LP doing missions, then turn in isk that someone had to make, plus tags/required items which are "mined" in the same fashion to get things from the lp store. Time X effort = item

Swiping your credit card to get an item from the store only benefits CCP and the involved player. Cash = item

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida

That is the slippery slope that has to be fought, not the store itself, but what it might become in the wrong hands .. and what I think the CSM is painfully aware of.


Agreed. One step, no matter how small, towards ingame benefits for cash is bad. After that first step there will always be a push towards bigger and better in that store.

SAVANT Mahr
Firebird Squadron
Posted - 2011.06.29 22:32:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Spurty

Magically appearing like rats and their bounties

Magically appearing like big isk drops from anoms

There's an awful lot of magic in this game but it's best not to talk about it or the trolls will ethug you on the forums with their twisted loic as to why some magic is good, but other magic not so good especially as they aren't using that magic.



This is not a reply in opposition, so much as an opportunity for me to ramble and perhaps shed some light to whomever bothers to read my esoteric ramblings.

It's not magic, not like MTs are magic. To get the loot drops from rats, to get the ISK bounties, someone has to go put in the time and effort to do it. ISK is an expression of time and effort, of labor. ISK, since it bears no burden of debt upon its creation, is a commodity money.

This is quite important to this entire discussion about MTs versus PLEX, buying skill points, ships magically created out of thin air, "convenience" services sold by CCP to make your game play "easier".

Understanding that ISK is a representation of time and effort, we must consider that MT created items are also an expression of time and effort. They are the time and effort NOT spent collecting ISK. So the net effect of MTs is to create an "inflation of time". This will push down the value of ISK in the game and lead to a distortion towards PLEX.

We know this because we know ISK is a commodity money, an expression of labor, time and effort. So all that "time" stored up in ISK now has to compete with all the "time saving" that comes from MT. All the "effort" not being done due to MTs removes all those game play opportunities.

This concept, this understanding of what ISK really is, is paramount to understanding how the entire sandbox works. Reread Malcanis' very good OP that does a walk through, and keep these concepts in mind. You may read it, and understand it more holistically than before.


The OP's posts and this post are probably the 2 most important posts on understanding how ISK, plex and MT interact together in EVE. By understanding these concepts it crystalizes how truly detrimental the Nex store could become to EVE.

How I wonder will it effect Plex if it only remains for vanity items that are
1) not being sold at laughable prices.
2) highly appealling & desireable items (such as paint jobs) are offered in quantity?
will this not also bring about the negative effects mentioned above?

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.06.29 22:33:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Akita T
Only two problems in OP's reasoning.
1. The assumption that the existence of PLEX (and GTC sales) does not affect the amount of ISK in EVE.
That assumption is just flat out patently false.
Sure, ISK might not have been just spawned into existence because of it, but QUITE A FEW PEOPLE DO WORK EXTRA compared to what they would have normally worked just to get that extra ISK.

This is trivially obvious: player B works to make an extra 400M ISK a month.
But, and this is important: Player A doesn't.

The question is, would he have done it ?
Or would he have just sighed and said "meh, I won't buy that ship NOW afterall".

Quote:
Additionally, player B does not necessarily make his ISK in ISK-creating ways. If Player B makes his ISK by eg: Invention, then no new ISK is created.
Overall the PLEX system causes a moderate expansion of the EVE economy, but there's no explicit reason for it to cause a disproportionate amount of extra ISK to be created.

I just spotted two issues in your argument. This was one of them.
Which in conjunction with the second one puts the whole "death inflation spiral imminent" slippery slope argument on shaky ground.

Note how I'm NOT saying you're wrong Twisted Evil
The argument might very well be warranted in case CCP turn out to fudge it just like they have a habit of fudging a lot of other things, and the end result of too much tinkering could eventually end up to be almost the same as your scary conclusion... but still...

Sergeant Spot
Galactic Geographic BookMark Surveying Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.29 22:37:00 - [45]
 

I will agree, strongly, that Eve would be better off without PLEX.

However.

PLEX has two factors that PARTLY redeem it (I still don't like PLEX, but I can hold my nose and stomach PLEX....)

1. ALL Isk gained by players selling PLEX was grinded IN GAME, high end modules and ships purchased with PLEX were either grinded by players, or built by players.

2. The existance of PLEX royally screws Professional Gold Farmers.

AUR has a 100% lack of number 1, and almost entirely lacks Number 2 (AUR makes use of PLEX, but in no way increases how much the existance of PLEX screws Pro Gold Farmers...)


PLEX NEEDS NO COMPANY.
PLEX ALREADY PROBABLY GOES TO FAR.
USING THE EXISTANCE OF PLEX TO JUSTIFY AUR IS AN ARGUMENT TO ""NOT"" ADD AUR TO GAME> AT LEAST NOT FOR ANYTHING BUT VANITY STUFF.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.06.29 22:43:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 29/06/2011 22:48:26
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
It's not magic, not like MTs are magic. To get the loot drops from rats, to get the ISK bounties, someone has to go put in the time and effort to do it. ISK is an expression of time and effort, of labor. ISK, since it bears no burden of debt upon its creation, is a commodity money.
This is quite important to this entire discussion about MTs versus PLEX, buying skill points, ships magically created out of thin air, "convenience" services sold by CCP to make your game play "easier".

Understanding that ISK is a representation of time and effort, we must consider that MT created items are also an expression of time and effort. They are the time and effort NOT spent collecting ISK. So the net effect of MTs is to create an "inflation of time". This will push down the value of ISK in the game and lead to a distortion towards PLEX.
We know this because we know ISK is a commodity money, an expression of labor, time and effort. So all that "time" stored up in ISK now has to compete with all the "time saving" that comes from MT. All the "effort" not being done due to MTs removes all those game play opportunities.


And this is why it's extremely important for all MT items to have a very HORRIBLE exchange rate as far as time goes.
Read : be freaking expensive in RL cash equivalent.
As long as the RL time cost of actually getting that money is comparable to the in-game time savings brought forth by not getting the corresponding ISK valued goods, items or services, you're golden.

Basically, the "time cost" of ISK right now is on average roughly "less than half of minimum wage in <insert RMT-prone country here>" per hour of work.

The cash->AUR cost of obtaining any alternate versions of existing items need to come up at a "time cost" equivalent to "part-time minimum wage job in the USA/Germany/UK/whatever".



TL;DR - as long as NEX items cost x10 in ISK compared to whatever nearly identical alternate you have in EVE right now...
Twisted Evil

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.29 23:01:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Akita T

Only two problems in OP's reasoning.

1. The assumption that the existence of PLEX (and GTC sales) does not affect the amount of ISK in EVE.
That assumption is just flat out patently false.

Sure, ISK might not have been just spawned into existence because of it, but QUITE A FEW PEOPLE DO WORK EXTRA compared to what they would have normally worked just to get that extra ISK.



The incentive by PLEX, to generate ISK, is not the same as two players trading ISK for PLEX. Your argument fails. Players are also get an incentive by Faction Battle ships, meta 4 gear, T2, Moon minerals, so on and so forth.

Is PLEX and incentive to generate ISK? Yep. Is black market RMT an incentive to generate ISK, yep. Do either one of these incentives actually generate ISK with out player/character investment of time and effort? Nope.

Originally by: Akita T

2. The assumption that if CCP sold ISK, the smaller the price, the larger the revenue.
This is much trickier than the previous one, and the previous one was not quite straightforward either.
And it comes in multiple parts.



Cause the first one is a complete fallacy Smile

If CCP started to sell ISK into the sandbox, we should expect wide scale inflationary pressure. But we must remember we are in an inside out economy of the real world. Basitiat's broken window fallacy does not apply here. There is no unlimited expression of development beyond the confines of the sandbox. There is no credit market of any note in which to invest a debt free currency. The ultimate manifestations of deliberate inflation of the monetary base are difficult to predict. All we can know for sure is that the equilibrium of ISK will go down. This should result in a higher amount of ISK for each PLEX. But if CCP is selling the ISK, then it's really quite a silly thing to even consider.

There is also the question of sinks. Would they be more loose, and if so that giant sucking sound would be the ISK sucked out of the economy and ultimately $cash sucked out of your wallet.

Far too many variables to say with certainly what exactly would happen. If CCP started to tinker with the monetary base by outright selling ISK. If they tried it, economy dies in some twisted form of the Weimar Republic as Basiat rolls in his grave, Mises cackles, Keynes rises from the dead, wearing $1000 pants made from the souls of kittens and hearts of anime ponies.

Jerry Pepridge
Posted - 2011.06.29 23:03:00 - [48]
 

100% agree with OP.

If i want to buy 20 titans, and 20 characters to use them i can with plex.

I win button was always there, you're all just buttsore you don;t have a monocle.

Damodreda Makura
Caldari
Bulgarian Experienced Crackers
Posted - 2011.06.29 23:10:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Jerry Pepridge
100% agree with OP.

If i want to buy 20 titans, and 20 characters to use them i can with plex.

I win button was always there, you're all just buttsore you don;t have a monocle.


Random poster that agree with something that never read.

Daemonspirit
Six Degrees of Separation
Posted - 2011.06.29 23:15:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Bootleg Jack
I've just proved, in one post, the old saying:
Better to remain silent and thought a fool, than to speak once and remove all doubt...

And:

Proverbs 17.28 Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.


Fixed your post.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.06.29 23:18:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
The incentive by PLEX, to generate ISK, is not the same as two players trading ISK for PLEX. Your argument fails.

THAT argument fails indeed. But that's NOT what I said Smile
Hint : I'm disagreeing a whole lot less than you seem to think I do Razz
Not over substance, but over emphasis.

P.S. See the reply to your other post before too Wink

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.29 23:20:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 29/06/2011 23:20:25
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
The incentive by PLEX, to generate ISK, is not the same as two players trading ISK for PLEX. Your argument fails.

THAT argument fails indeed. But that's NOT what I said Smile
Hint : I'm disagreeing a whole lot less than you seem to think I do Razz
Not over substance, but over emphasis.

P.S. See the reply to your other post before too Wink


yeah, we bump heads in an odd way as it relates to this issue.

Other post, 7.5% post?

Jimmy Duce
Chaotic Tranquility
Posted - 2011.06.29 23:21:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
The incentive by PLEX, to generate ISK, is not the same as two players trading ISK for PLEX. Your argument fails.

THAT argument fails indeed. But that's NOT what I said Smile
Hint : I'm disagreeing a whole lot less than you seem to think I do Razz
Not over substance, but over emphasis.

P.S. See the reply to your other post before too Wink



Did I ever tell you you scare me when you smile that much.

cBOLTSON
Star Frontiers
Posted - 2011.06.29 23:22:00 - [54]
 

Im personally in agreement with the OP. However I would like to add - If CCP want to make money of people buying fancy vanity items, cool bits and bobs then fair play. As long as we have the chance later to buy with isk (if someone sells JUST like PLEX) then thats fine.
For me IF CCP started selling game changing / Buff items thats when I take offence to the whole thing. Paying a subscription and only recieving part of the game is just plain wrong to me.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.06.29 23:23:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 29/06/2011 23:23:16
Originally by: Jimmy Duce
Did I ever tell you you scare me when you smile that much.

U SCARED ? Very HappyLaughingVery Happy

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Quote:
P.S. See the reply to your other post before too Wink

yeah, we bump heads in an odd way as it relates to this issue.
Other post, 7.5% post?

No, post #47 just a tad bit above.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.29 23:31:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 29/06/2011 23:34:30
Originally by: Akita T

And this is why it's extremely important for all MT items to have a very HORRIBLE exchange rate as far as time goes.
Read : be freaking expensive in RL cash equivalent.
As long as the RL time cost of actually getting that money is comparable to the in-game time savings brought forth by not getting the corresponding ISK valued goods, items or services, you're golden.

Basically, the "time cost" of ISK right now is on average roughly "less than half of minimum wage in <insert RMT-prone country here>" per hour of work.

The cash->AUR cost of obtaining any alternate versions of existing items need to come up at a "time cost" equivalent to "part-time minimum wage job in the USA/Germany/UK/whatever".



TL;DR - as long as NEX items cost x10 in ISK compared to whatever nearly identical alternate you have in EVE right now...
Twisted Evil


note, ref. post #52 this thread - yours.
Yes, we may be putting the emphasis different things and bumping heads. I am not sure here, that to which I am responding, if you are speaking for or against an trade-in of equal value to get a vanity item or not. The response below assumes you are not requesting a trade-in of equal mechanical value. If I am mistaken, take no offense. Checking your listed refrence too edit: lol, to which this below is the response. :)

---

There should be NONE at all that introduce a mechanical value in the sandbox that do not also remove that same value - none, never ever, nada zip, don't care how much it costs. Pure vanity BlingTard Space Chavs, no one really cares, cept pirates who want to gank said BlingTard Space Chav. I am sure that BlingTard tears, for $100 paint jobs, will indeed be delicious.

Even if there was some $3000 pimped out super freaking shuttle magically poofed out of thin air, that had no mechanical difference from a normal shuttle, suddenly everything has an artificial value fulcrum that is coming from outside the sandbox. PLEX works with the cost of a GTC because it is ultimately neutral as far as the monetary base is concerned, the value floats on desires of the sandbox. Magically poofed items ... see previous essay.

Mechanical value in with out equal mechanical value removed, should never even be considered. "ThingA + Aurum = Sparkle ThingA" is neutral. Fine whatever, no mechanical change to the sandbox, happy days are here again, PLEX traders rejoice.

Trainwreck McGee
Posted - 2011.06.29 23:32:00 - [57]
 

Seriously wtf this topic has been made like 500 times. Do people think its a revelation everytime they put up a new trhead about this?? WE know your argument and we don't care. STFU and GTFO

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.29 23:35:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Trainwreck McGee
Seriously wtf this topic has been made like 500 times. Do people think its a revelation everytime they put up a new trhead about this?? WE know your argument and we don't care. STFU and GTFO


No you, nyah, pbbbt.

VKhaun Vex
Posted - 2011.06.29 23:39:00 - [59]
 

Just wanted to weigh in for a sec here.

I often argue with people what probably looks exactly like this. Saying we 'must be P2Win already' but I don't think we are at all. EVE is a deep game and space combat done right. Ships can't fit all they like, you must select your ammo ahead of time, fit your set number of modules ahead of time, and each can only fill so many roles in a group.

If you want to stare at two identical ships matching math like it's an 8bit RPG then yeah, it's pay to win. As soon as you bring a buddy or learn a few maneuvers it's so much more.

We are not, and will never be Pay 2 Win, in my opinion.

Novice to the game, NOT a novice to PvP or MT.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.06.29 23:44:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 29/06/2011 23:54:24

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Mechanical value in with out equal mechanical value removed, should never even be considered. "ThingA + Aurum = Sparkle ThingA" is neutral. Fine whatever, no mechanical change to the sandbox, happy days are here again, PLEX traders rejoice.

Obviously, absolutely nobody can ever object to that.
But.
Hypothetical example.

On one hand, take "Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System".
For simplicity's sake, let's say it sells for 10k LP and 10m ISK plus T1 launcher and a host of tags in the LP shop.
We introduce "Sparkle Ballistic Control System". It's functionally identical to a "Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System".
Except it has a different colour. Or missiles shot with it explode in a different animation. Or something trivial anyway.
Let's say it sells for X AUR and 10m ISK plus T1 launcher and a host of tags in the NEX.

Basically, it's either 10k LP or X AUR to get the same thing, functionally speaking.
Now, how much should X be in order to NOT create any sort of _NOTICEABLE_ problems for the game ?

You say that as far as your personal taste is concerned, X might as well be the maximum possible amount that fits in the variable type (I don't know, maybe 2,147,483,647 AUR?) and you still wouldn't quite be happy, just because the possibility exists that somebody would actually ever buy it.

I however say that as long as that X AUR is worth at least 10 times more (preferably higher) than 10k LP will ever be worth realistically, we don't actually have a problem from a practical standpoint.
Putting an upper estimate of around 5k per LP (so 50 mil ISK), choosing 20 instead of 10 (so 1 bil ISK) and using a lower estimate of 175m ISK per PLEX - 50k ISK per AUR - we get 20,000 AUR.

Or, at current exchange rates, roughly 2.2 bil ISK just for the AUR. Then add the same things needed for the CN BCS in the LP shop.
Remember, there are several other much cheaper BCSs that actually have better stats than the "Sparkle", not just a gimmick effect.

How threatened would you be about the existence of the "Sparkle" BCS in this case exactly, and why ?
And how exactly do you think it will actually effect the economy ?

__

P.S. Obviously, if the "Sparkle" BCS would cost just 2,000 AUR or something like that, I would totally agree that it could indeed start to be a problem, and if it only costs 500 AUR, it would be downright outrageous. But at 20,000 AUR ?


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