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blankseplocked EVE Has Been Pay 2 Win for YEARS
 
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Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.06.29 18:55:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Zagdul on 30/06/2011 08:32:26
Edited by: Zagdul on 30/06/2011 08:07:38
Edited by: Zagdul on 30/06/2011 08:03:31
Edited by: Zagdul on 29/06/2011 19:03:29
Corrected title.

This may be hard to accept, but.

$$ > ETC > PLEX > ISK >

Officer Fit Titan
Implants (I can train faster)
Deadspace Tengu (I can rat/make isk faster)

Come into the game, go to the character bazaar and buy a 20m sp tengu pilot for about $200 using PLEX > isk conversion.

A new player to EVE can fly any ship and win the game.




NeX is less P2W than EVE has been in a VERY long time.

In other words, there are a lot of dumb people, hurfing and durfing over nothing.
Absolutely, nothing.

Originally by: Wooker Tosk

The new system creates assets out of thin air while the plex system only creates a plex. The over all effect on the economy is much different.


BPO's
Skillbooks
PI Command Centers
... <insert something I know I'm missing>


Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 29/06/2011 19:16:23
Originally by: Li Taran
One uses the player-driven market. The other bypasses it entirely.

But you may get exactly the same. P2W isn't not about who provides it but what the buyer gets. If some african dictator wants guns he doesn't care if it's bought legally at some gun shop or illegally smuggled, as long as he wins by paying money.

Even if you get stuff superior to things made by Players you're paying RL money for advantage just the same.



Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
Posted - 2011.06.29 18:56:00 - [2]
 

Longer than that, I'm pretty sure GTCs were around in 2006 ish.

DeODokktor
Caldari
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
Posted - 2011.06.29 18:57:00 - [3]
 

You call us dumb, and your topic says "Play to Win" and your post says "Pay to Win"

Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.06.29 18:57:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Patient 2428190
Longer than that, I'm pretty sure GTCs were around in 2006 ish.


That would fall under... years.

no?

Bad Messenger
draketrain
Posted - 2011.06.29 18:57:00 - [5]
 

People believe illegal RMT guys propaganda that NeX is bad, rmt guys do not want that PLEX isk price will raise and ruin their income.

Trainwreck McGee
Posted - 2011.06.29 18:58:00 - [6]
 

o great this thread again.........

Predator Nyx
Posted - 2011.06.29 18:59:00 - [7]
 

I completely agree.

But remember, it's not "Pay 2 Win"

It's "Pay 2 Monocle"

That's what the whiners have their panties in a bunch about , not P2W, but P2M!

Brodde Dim
Hyper-Nova
Posted - 2011.06.29 18:59:00 - [8]
 

Eve should be pay to post imho.

Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:00:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Zagdul
Originally by: Patient 2428190
Longer than that, I'm pretty sure GTCs were around in 2006 ish.


That would fall under... years.

no?


Yes, but it did exist before PLEX as well too.

Not to mention e-bay or whatever as well.

Maman Brigitte
Licentia Ex Vereor
Intergalactic Exports Group
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:00:00 - [10]
 

PLEX without NeX is just game-time converted into a tradeable item.

It makes ISK more valuable by allowing wealth in EVE to replace dollar-value when paying subscriptions.

Because PLEX is game time, CCP was selling subscriptions with PLEX, nothing more, nothing less. The value of PLEX fluctuated based on the value of ISK and the value of other items in the game.

However, the PLEX -> AUR conversion is a set quantity. The items you purchase with AUR do not have fluctuating values, because they are not subject to market pressures.

What annoys me about NeX is that the players aren't determining the value of the items in that store.

I mean hell, even COFFEE in EVE fluctuates based on market pressures. PROSTITUTES are subject to market forces. Yet pants aren't? The hell?

Sig Sour
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:01:00 - [11]
 

I think you mean to say "pay to win" not "play to win".

Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:03:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Predator Nyx
I completely agree.

But remember, it's not "Pay 2 Win"

It's "Pay 2 Monocle"

That's what the whiners have their panties in a bunch about , not P2W, but P2M!


Who cares?

CCP needs money... they put a NeX shop in game that sells garbage. This garbage changes the way you LOOK. Who gives a flying monkeys ass how much it costs? If you can't afford it, sorry, you don't get the high cost item.

What is the problem?

Who cares? It doesn't effect game play.



Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:04:00 - [13]
 


I agree with the title of this thread.


EVE has been "PLAY 2 WIN" for years.



Ealric Sorden
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:04:00 - [14]
 

Buying PLEX can't earn you standing with a faction. It can't get you immediate skill points. Any items you buy with the ISK earned from PLEX had to be created/looted by players.

PLEX probably wasn't the best idea ever for EVE, but the solution isn't to take another step in the wrong direction. That's what people are worried about.

NEX can't do this either yet. And hopefully it never will be able to.

Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:05:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Patient 2428190
Originally by: Zagdul
Originally by: Patient 2428190
Longer than that, I'm pretty sure GTCs were around in 2006 ish.


That would fall under... years.

no?


Yes, but it did exist before PLEX as well too.

Not to mention e-bay or whatever as well.
e-bay does not fall under the EULA and I do not support it.

PLEX does and I do.

Originally by: Sig Sour
I think you mean to say "pay to win" not "play to win".
I did, corrected, thanks.

Tautut
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:05:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Tautut on 29/06/2011 19:09:42
I thought I had logged on to the Eve forums .... but instead it appears to be Groundhog day again.

The arguments for Plex are well justified. Without Plex, people would turn to black market isk sellers which in itself would promote macro mining and botting.

Edit ... point being that it fuels a player driven economy. Nothing you would buy from NeX would be player made.

Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:07:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Zagdul
Edited by: Zagdul on 29/06/2011 19:03:29
Corrected title.

This may be hard to accept, but.

$$ > ETC > PLEX > ISK >

Officer Fit Titan
Implants (I can train faster)
Deadspace Tengu (I can rat/make isk faster)




Someone gets game time for that meaning that someone can take that money and earn their own implants and their own Titan.


When you use PLEX for AURUM, noone gets anything except CCP and someone who realy wants to blow a large amount of "PLEX" and USD on virtual nothing.


Maman Brigitte
Licentia Ex Vereor
Intergalactic Exports Group
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:07:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Zagdul
Originally by: Predator Nyx
I completely agree.

But remember, it's not "Pay 2 Win"

It's "Pay 2 Monocle"

That's what the whiners have their panties in a bunch about , not P2W, but P2M!


Who cares?

CCP needs money... they put a NeX shop in game that sells garbage. This garbage changes the way you LOOK. Who gives a flying monkeys ass how much it costs? If you can't afford it, sorry, you don't get the high cost item.

What is the problem?

Who cares? It doesn't effect game play.





No one is as angry as we are about the current NeX store. It's stupid, and the Incarna expansion removed useful features and offered nothing of value in return, but we're used to that.

What we're angry about is the documents that leaked indicating that EVE's devs weren't so much considering *whether* to implement pay-to-win MT (gold ships, ammo, w/e) as considering *how* to get the EVE playerbase to accept those things with minimal rioting.

You seem a little not-up-to-date. There's a news article on Eurogamer about it that's not too bad at filling in the blanks.

Care Bear King
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:07:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Zagdul
Edited by: Zagdul on 29/06/2011 19:03:29
Corrected title.

This may be hard to accept, but.

$$ > ETC > PLEX > ISK >


PLEX can be justified, or argued to be justified, under the very real role it plays in dissuading 3rd party RMT and the ills that come with it. As far as I am aware, there is no third party black market for virtual skirts and golden manholes (err... monocles).

Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:08:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Zagdul
$$ > ETC > PLEX > ISK >

Officer Fit Titan
Implants (I can train faster)
Deadspace Tengu (I can rat/make isk faster)

100% true

Originally by: Zagdul
NeX is less P2W than EVE has been in a VERY long time.
In other words, there are a lot of dumb people, hurfing and durfing over nothing.
Absolutely, nothing.

Wel you don't know what they were planning to do .. that's what people are afraid/angry about.

But yes, it must be quite terrifying if you could do even more with AUR than what you already can accomplish with PLEX.

Katrina Cortez
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:08:00 - [21]
 

Not this thread AGAIN....

Li Taran
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:10:00 - [22]
 

At present, it isn't Pay to Win.

It is "Pay CCP for a GTC to convert to PLEX to sell on the Market for a variable price to get ISK to buy things that must be made by Players, with minerals and blueprints acquired by Players, and moved by Players". Said PLEX retains it's redeemable value of gametime.

If non-vanity MT's are implemented, it becomes "Pay CCP to get a GTC to convert to PLEX to convert to Aurum to purchase things that cannot be made by Players, that are superior to things made by Players". Said PLEX is removed from circulation entirely.

One uses the player-driven market. The other bypasses it entirely.

Amber Villaneous
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:10:00 - [23]
 

OP is an idiot, that has no clue on how stuff works.

Close redundant thread.

Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:11:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Zagdul on 29/06/2011 19:13:07
Originally by: Bloodpetal
Originally by: Zagdul
Edited by: Zagdul on 29/06/2011 19:03:29
Corrected title.

This may be hard to accept, but.

$$ > ETC > PLEX > ISK >

Officer Fit Titan
Implants (I can train faster)
Deadspace Tengu (I can rat/make isk faster)




Someone gets game time for that meaning that someone can take that money and earn their own implants and their own Titan.


When you use PLEX for AURUM, noone gets anything except CCP and someone who realy wants to blow a large amount of "PLEX" and USD on virtual nothing.




You seem to miss a point. This is what you call and ISK/PLEX sink.

It's a place do dump isk into or PLEX that removes it from the game because currently the economy is inflated.

In the long term Arum plans to make the game easier to play but people are too hung up on simple thoughts and simple ideas that they would rather just riot in the streets instead of listen to reason. Or even better, instead of realizing that the game has always been the way they're protesting it shouldn't be.

What about skillbooks? BPO? PI Command Centers?

Titan Skillbook: 4.5 Billion isk.

I'll be damned if I'm ratting that isk up.

Hekira Soikutsu
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:13:00 - [25]
 

3 reasons why P2W is bad, not because of RL money being used for that purpose, but because the way the NEX store functions goes counter to the sandbox.

1) Price locking. Similar items and substitutes will be price locked to the NEX.

2) Unlimited supply. Unlimited officer grade modules when no current game mechanic allows this to happen.

3) Logistics. Spawning ships at stations that would be alot harder to resupply.

PLEX is not equivalent to MT.

Toawa
EVE Mercantile Exchange
Virtue of Selfishness
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:14:00 - [26]
 

This argument has been bandied about many, many times. It's been countered by the "but with the ISK from PLEX, you're still employing people to create that ISK, not magicing it from thin air", many, many times.

I think the counterargument is valid, but it is missing a subtle but important point, which I think properly illustrates the difference between paying for ISK via PLEX and paying for ships/ammo/whatever via AUR via PLEX, and which I have yet to see put forward (although I have not read every instance where it was used, of course).

Hypothetically, say I need Tempests. I need a lot of them. And say, hypothetically, I'm limited to only buying it from Jita 4-4. And I need them very, very quickly. I need them fast enough and bad enough that I'm willing to pay $$ for it.

Right now, there are 151 Tempests available in Jita. Even if I buy enough PLEX to pay for more than 151, I can only get 151 *right now*, because that's all there is. Now, the natural market forces will say "Hey, someone's buying up all the Tempests... They must really want them. I better build more." And more will be built and sold, probably for higher prices than originally planned. The effect of that is, even if I thought I bought enough PLEX to pay for, say, 200 Temptests, that might not be enough.

It also means that others will be saying, "Hey, that guy's buying up Tempests... What is he up to?" and all of the spacio-political affects that can have.

Now say I can just trade in AUR for Tempests directly. There is no imposed spending limit. I could buy 200 or 2000, if I was willing to pay that much. I could build an unstoppable Tempest fleet in a matter of minutes, because the natural limiter of the market is no longer there.

That is the difference between PLEX and AUR/P2W: PLEX can only supply as much as the market can supply. AUR can supply as much as anyone is willing to pay for at that moment.

Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:14:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Jennifer Starling

Originally by: Zagdul
NeX is less P2W than EVE has been in a VERY long time.
In other words, there are a lot of dumb people, hurfing and durfing over nothing.
Absolutely, nothing.

Wel you don't know what they were planning to do .. that's what people are afraid/angry about.

But yes, it must be quite terrifying if you could do even more with AUR than what you already can accomplish with PLEX.
Neither do you.


Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:14:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 29/06/2011 19:16:23
Originally by: Li Taran
One uses the player-driven market. The other bypasses it entirely.

But you may get exactly the same. P2W isn't not about who provides it but what the buyer gets. If some african dictator wants guns he doesn't care if it's bought legally at some gun shop or illegally smuggled, as long as he wins by paying money.

Even if you get stuff superior to things made by Players you're paying RL money for advantage just the same.

Takseen
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:15:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Li Taran
At present, it isn't Pay to Win.
It is "Pay CCP for a GTC to convert to PLEX to sell on the Market for a variable price to get ISK to buy things that must be made by Players, with minerals and blueprints acquired by Players, and moved by Players". Said PLEX retains it's redeemable value of gametime.
If non-vanity MT's are implemented, it becomes "Pay CCP to get a GTC to convert to PLEX to convert to Aurum to purchase things that cannot be made by Players, that are superior to things made by Players". Said PLEX is removed from circulation entirely.
One uses the player-driven market. The other bypasses it entirely.



That's still pay to win in practice though. As you inject more and more $ into the game and convert it to ISK, you can have a bigger and bigger impact on the game. Either by pimping out your ships with expensive modules or just paying other people to do stuff for you. Just because it operates through a player run market doesn't mean its not still Paying to Win.

Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:17:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Hekira Soikutsu
3 reasons why P2W is bad, not because of RL money being used for that purpose, but because the way the NEX store functions goes counter to the sandbox.

1) Price locking. Similar items and substitutes will be price locked to the NEX.

2) Unlimited supply. Unlimited officer grade modules when no current game mechanic allows this to happen.

3) Logistics. Spawning ships at stations that would be alot harder to resupply.

PLEX is not equivalent to MT.


Since when does the LP store run out of implants?

Or, since when does the market run out of PI Command Centers?


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