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Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2011.06.29 20:28:00 - [121]
 

Edited by: Diomedes Calypso on 29/06/2011 20:28:45
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Diomedes Calypso

Bounties make isk out of thin air... sure people rat for the bouties but moving a bounty from 500k from a battleship to 800k or vice versa is an elective decision to pump more or isk into the game "POOF" .. no different in effect than their direct buying or selling of plex on the market.



This is false. ISK requires time and effort to go and collect from rats, agents and all the other sources of ISK. ISK doesn't just spew from space into Everyone's wallets, you have to go get it. ISK is a commodity money, it requires time and effort to collect, it is an abstraction of labor. It is the basis for all value in the sandbox and understanding its true nature is key in understanding all the little itty bitty parts of the sandbox.

PLEX doesn't create ISK at all. In fact, trading PLEX removes a little ISK in the form of station fees and taxes.

I didn't read the rest of your post, my apologies. Not understanding this key fact about ISK can lead to all other assumptions being fallacious with one word, so I didn't take the time to pursue your post any further.


If you read what i said, it is the edit(delta) between the two bounty rates that is created out of thin air.

People will do missions.. out of habit or whatever.. how much they get can change .. if the change is elective to developers they decided to up the bs payout for a day, thats like deciding to just throw another how many hundred billion into circulation out of thin air based upon expected activity

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2011.06.29 20:37:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Diomedes Calypso

Bounties make isk out of thin air... sure people rat for the bouties but moving a bounty from 500k from a battleship to 800k or vice versa is an elective decision to pump more or isk into the game "POOF" .. no different in effect than their direct buying or selling of plex on the market.



This is false. ISK requires time and effort to go and collect from rats, agents and all the other sources of ISK. ISK doesn't just spew from space into Everyone's wallets, you have to go get it. ISK is a commodity money, it requires time and effort to collect, it is an abstraction of labor. It is the basis for all value in the sandbox and understanding its true nature is key in understanding all the little itty bitty parts of the sandbox.

PLEX doesn't create ISK at all. In fact, trading PLEX removes a little ISK in the form of station fees and taxes.

I didn't read the rest of your post, my apologies. Not understanding this key fact about ISK can lead to all other assumptions being fallacious with one word, so I didn't take the time to pursue your post any further.


And I also never said that the current plex system Makes isk out of thin air as it is supposed to work

I was replying to AKITA (the op) contention that CCP was in fact buying plex with isk they made from thin air. True, they made the isk first.. but they put it into circulation by buying the plex if it is what he alleges.

Please read the rest of the post.

It is the game design differences based on what sort of mt you have and how using Plex didn't change their view of game dynamics like otehr mts will

Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.29 20:39:00 - [123]
 

Originally by: Xaelix Sativa
I've commented for years how all MT-based MMO games are lousy. The Noble Exchange, as explained by CCP will not ruin Eve Online.

A major difference between games that are F2P/MT-based and Eve, with its optional vanity MT's, is that the strictly MT-based games give you barely ANYTHING for free that distinguishes yourself from other players. Eve has an absolute TON of content and customization options that's available with your subscription. So again, it's not the traditional MT-based game and never will be, and plenty of us will love it whether we're buying our game bling with real money or not. Have a little faith that CCP won't inject more powerful ships/items that can only be paid for with real money - until the day it happens, chill the *** out.

If CCP becomes really cash-strapped, they can always do what others who charge subscription fees do - charge $60 for a license key (per account) and $40 for expansion keys. Let's give the Noble Exchange a chance - there are far worse methods they could resort to.
Relatively few are all that excited about whats already in the store. The main concern is what might be placed in the store in the future. The internal CCP newsletter and CCPs flat refusal, so far, to say there will not be non-vanity/P2W items in the future are what most of the excitement is about.

Having faith in CCP is something the community craves. Its just a little hard when were faced with recent blogs and leaks plus a history that isnt exactly squeaky clean.

-Windjammer

Sub Prime
Posted - 2011.06.29 20:42:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: Jenn aSide
Edited by: Jenn aSide on 29/06/2011 16:12:35
Originally by: Takseen
I don't think they're cash grubbing monsters. Just a bit full of themselves thinking that Incarna is the best thing since sliced bread when the actual reception ranges from rage to indifference. And foolish enough to think they could sell those custom items for so much when so few people can see them.




I agree, but I also think CCP has gotten big headed in other areas. They made ONE hugely successful game and haven't really experienced the kind of tragic end other companies have.

In short, because EVE rocks CCP thinks they are invincible (like we say in my part of the world about a drunk, "10 feet tall and bullet proof") and it concerns me because I know what happens to people and companies when they get convinced of their own fallabilty....


+1 I'm concerned the CEO is too focussed about creating his own dream using Eve (as it is) to fund it rather than making Eve a better game.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.06.29 20:48:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Diomedes Calypso
I was replying to AKITA (the op) contention that CCP was in fact buying plex with isk they made from thin air. True, they made the isk first.. but they put it into circulation by buying the plex if it is what he alleges.

That CCP COULD HAVE created ISK out of thin air to some purchase PLEX if they wanted, and that this would have been an easier way to make RL cash out of the general population rather than bother with the NEX.
At absolutely NO POINT was I saying that they ACTUALLY did any of that, quite the opposite.

Just to make sure we have no misunderstandings.

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.06.29 20:54:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: Diomedes Calypso
Edited by: Diomedes Calypso on 29/06/2011 20:28:45
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Diomedes Calypso

Bounties make isk out of thin air... sure people rat for the bouties but moving a bounty from 500k from a battleship to 800k or vice versa is an elective decision to pump more or isk into the game "POOF" .. no different in effect than their direct buying or selling of plex on the market.



This is false. ISK requires time and effort to go and collect from rats, agents and all the other sources of ISK. ISK doesn't just spew from space into Everyone's wallets, you have to go get it. ISK is a commodity money, it requires time and effort to collect, it is an abstraction of labor. It is the basis for all value in the sandbox and understanding its true nature is key in understanding all the little itty bitty parts of the sandbox.

PLEX doesn't create ISK at all. In fact, trading PLEX removes a little ISK in the form of station fees and taxes.

I didn't read the rest of your post, my apologies. Not understanding this key fact about ISK can lead to all other assumptions being fallacious with one word, so I didn't take the time to pursue your post any further.


If you read what i said, it is the edit(delta) between the two bounty rates that is created out of thin air.

People will do missions.. out of habit or whatever.. how much they get can change .. if the change is elective to developers they decided to up the bs payout for a day, thats like deciding to just throw another how many hundred billion into circulation out of thin air based upon expected activity


Still not the equivalent of spawning isk to buy plex to then destroy. Plex bought by a player will always represent a potential months worth of game time, plex purchased by CCP via currency spawned on demand and then destroyed erases that value.

Since it is that real world value as game time that is being traded on removal of isk via alternative means that do not result in CCP having to give face value to someone distorts the market.

And of course CCP wants to destroy Plex, each plex in existence is a $15 dollar liability on their books. Because it can always be redeemed for $15 worth of play time or donated resulting in CCP having to make an actual cash donation to what ever cause they are doing plex for at the time.

The NEX allows them to kill two birds with a single stone as it were, One it allows them to erase that $15 liability from their books for essentially nothing. 2 it creates a greater demand of those $15 plex's that can then be destroyed.

No wonder all the finance people are pushing it so hard and are so reluctant to limit what they can do with it. It's a masterstroke of design if they can just get us to accept it.

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2011.06.29 20:57:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Diomedes Calypso
I was replying to AKITA (the op) contention that CCP was in fact buying plex with isk they made from thin air. True, they made the isk first.. but they put it into circulation by buying the plex if it is what he alleges.

That CCP COULD HAVE created ISK out of thin air to some purchase PLEX if they wanted, and that this would have been an easier way to make RL cash out of the general population rather than bother with the NEX.
At absolutely NO POINT was I saying that they ACTUALLY did any of that, quite the opposite.

Just to make sure we have no misunderstandings.


sorry , i misread that .. I don't think they did either thats why i used the word allege...

(I do think they -might- if the plex price dropped below 275 million or so for a sutained period more to counter the black market but thats another issue and probably won't happen unless there is a mass exodous in a absolute failscade type way (like from 300k accounts to 75k in less than a year which I give 0% chance of)

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2011.06.29 21:11:00 - [128]
 

Edited by: Diomedes Calypso on 29/06/2011 21:22:11
Originally by: Skex Relbore

Still not the equivalent of spawning isk to buy plex to then destroy. Plex bought by a player will always represent a potential months worth of game time, plex purchased by CCP via currency spawned on demand and then destroyed erases that value.

Since it is that real world value as game time that is being traded on removal of isk via alternative means that do not result in CCP having to give face value to someone distorts the market.

And of course CCP wants to destroy Plex, each plex in existence is a $15 dollar liability on their books. Because it can always be redeemed for $15 worth of play time or donated resulting in CCP having to make an actual cash donation to what ever cause they are doing plex for at the time.

The NEX allows them to kill two birds with a single stone as it were, One it allows them to erase that $15 liability from their books for essentially nothing. 2 it creates a greater demand of those $15 plex's that can then be destroyed.

No wonder all the finance people are pushing it so hard and are so reluctant to limit what they can do with it. It's a masterstroke of design if they can just get us to accept it.


I'll leave the definition of plex to other threads. In the end the distinctionsn aren't material to the point about the ways that more extentive types of MTs as outlined will have additional ways that they motivate CCP to make balance change decisions on top of the abilty of players to buy isk from other players with $ through the exchange of game time mechanism.

Please read my parts where I tried to explain those.. if after reading those parts you think that the current system is no worse in terms of potential motivation to skew the customers who do not elect to pay beyond their basic subscription then I'd be interested in your thoughts why .

As I said, my issues were with the future plans suggested in Fearless and what I read as support of those plans by what was and wasn't said (no clear denial or specific distancing themselves from NPC created and sold game play advantage enhancements).

On in place already (not hypothetical future) there isn't as much to take issue with except that as it stands now, the captains quarters appears more to do with vanity thang game play.. in fact is a hinderance to a fair percentage of players with either poor computers or who had the habit of running mutiple clients and other non ccp applications with characters in station.

I am not against the use of plex / aurum for many types of vanity goods

I'll agree wholeheartedly with you that finding isk sinks for the wealthiest players and motivations not to hord or in fact destroy hordes of plex is a good thing. I in fact supported the use of plex for remaps as, related to my thoughts in my longer post above, the change in sp accumulation over the course of the year wasn't game shattering and the game play is designed in a way to already balance players with vastly vastly different sp levels . Someone able to accumulate 10 to 15% more sp over the course of a year doesn't really throw fleet make-up or amount of isk a typical player needs to stay competive into any uproar.

Using plex>aurmum for vanity things that fit within existing play and didn't force other players to change their habits in a time consuming way as a forced incarna station eviroment would, would have no effect. If they sold specialty hob gobblin II's with your futbol teams color scheme on them, or had the npc anouncments address you as "sir" when leaving station.. those type of vanity expenses would have no effect on others game play... pure vanity...and actually they might be fun to have.. I'd pay a plex to be called "sir" by npc's from here on out ! ; )

Ghoest
Posted - 2011.06.29 21:21:00 - [129]
 

Im the one who has consistently said "CCP is obviously" selling isk for cash by means of the plex market.

Akita has on the other hand been saying that CCP could this but surely they arent.


Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.06.29 21:34:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Diomedes Calypso
snippy



I think you may have misunderstood my position. I'm not in favor of the NEX system I'm just pointing out what it does and how it's different from the old plex.

I am very concerned about what CCP plans on doing with this system my point is to explain another motivation for them to push this system as far as they can get us to accept.

Mirage Excelsior
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.29 21:38:00 - [131]
 

Would just like to add in another factor that people discussing here seem to have missed, or specifically missed (PLEX = liability covering it in a general sense).

You buy the PLEX for $15, CCP gets the $15 but, until the PLEX is:

A) Used to purchase game time.
B) Converted to Aurum.
C) Destroyed.

It's actual value to CCP fluctuates heavily. Due ofcourse to one tiny detail. Net Income does not equal profit.

A PLEX converted to game time loses its profit margin to the overhead costs of that particular player for the 30 days provided.

A PLEX converted to AURUM, can either be better, or worse in profit terms, dependant on the deal in place with the designers creating the NeX clothing.

A PLEX destroyed on the other hand, is 100% pure profit, the perfect reason to allow them to be destroyable in the first place, and imo perfectly acceptable. As soon as you purchase the PLEX from CCP, what you do with it is down to you, not them. You lose your $15 flat out, they however make a different profit margin on it based on your related decisions.

Elrica bloodbane
Posted - 2011.06.29 21:44:00 - [132]
 

Edited by: Elrica bloodbane on 29/06/2011 22:05:45
Edited by: Elrica bloodbane on 29/06/2011 21:50:34
When plex first came out, they were confined to stations.
Then they were transportable. Why the change?.
ccp reduce bounties on rats. Thus reducing isk supply in game.
CCP make it more expensive to hold sov reducing isk in game.
ccp sell more plex increasing revenue. And isk in game.
ccp introduce mechanism's to remove isk from game.
worm holes, incursions, mt trading.

Maybe. but we will never knowVery HappyVery Happy

Every plex destroyed is the same as 1 person paying double subs.
= every item bought with a plex, destroyed is like another subscriber.

Would CCP buy plex ingame, without first removing isk from the game to balance it.Twisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted Evil

Tu Ko
Predator's Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.29 21:52:00 - [133]
 

Akita T

You're normally on the ball with your posts Akira, so I'm kinda suprised by this one. CCP is not just greedy that's is as we say "a-duh"; What has really happened is that at the corporate level the company suffers fro ADHD and cannot finish anything they start. This led them to running multiple concurrent projects with little planning and even less effort. So in the end this has pulled their budget thin and they only have one running online game so this is where they run to get the cash. Let's also just understand that every dollar earned from microtransaction is confirmation that Eve's subscription based model is less desirable than the complete MT model they will use for WoD and Dust514. Quicker return on developed content, IE I made a widget today and because it was the newest thing in the store 100 people bought the item in an hour. As opposed to developing a fully realized feature, advertizing it and waiting for more subscriptions to roll in. Either way it is pretty safe to say that with a full fledge MT store, content updates that we don't pay directly for will be slower and smaller inversely dependant on how popular the MT itself is

Zinyai
Posted - 2011.06.29 22:05:00 - [134]
 

Akita T never has anything useful to say. Just a bunch of conspiracies.

Jimmy Duce
Chaotic Tranquility
Posted - 2011.06.29 22:49:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Smagd
You must be better at economics than CCP, and they got a professor!

I'll say ! They should be, shouldn't they ?
You'd think it would be normal to be so, but then again...




I had 100 mill to my name when you made this prediction, I now have 500 mill is that good?

Elrica bloodbane
Posted - 2011.06.29 22:51:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: Zinyai
Akita T never has anything useful to say. Just a bunch of conspiracies.


Where you never say anything useful period. Twisted Evil

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2011.06.29 22:57:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: Elrica bloodbane
Originally by: Zinyai
Akita T never has anything useful to say. Just a bunch of conspiracies.


Where you never say anything useful period. Twisted Evil

Girls ... period ... fight. Laughing

Kogh Ayon
Posted - 2011.06.30 00:14:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Diomedes Calypso
I was replying to AKITA (the op) contention that CCP was in fact buying plex with isk they made from thin air. True, they made the isk first.. but they put it into circulation by buying the plex if it is what he alleges.

That CCP COULD HAVE created ISK out of thin air to some purchase PLEX if they wanted, and that this would have been an easier way to make RL cash out of the general population rather than bother with the NEX.
At absolutely NO POINT was I saying that they ACTUALLY did any of that, quite the opposite.

Just to make sure we have no misunderstandings.


It's a good point. Maybe they are just doing so. I mean, it's not what you said, but what you said let me worry that they are probably doing so, and still couldn't get enough money they wantConfused

P42ALPHA
Gallente
Epidemic.
THE D0MINION
Posted - 2011.06.30 00:28:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Who's to say that haven't already been doing this, but want even more money?

I'm going to need a second T3 tinfoil hat, my first one appears to do nothing.
Should I upgrade to a T4 tinfoilhat ? Twisted Evil


No t4 hats in devolopment till 2018. Got to finish WOD firstRazz

Zinyai
Posted - 2011.06.30 02:01:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: Elrica bloodbane
Originally by: Zinyai
Akita T never has anything useful to say. Just a bunch of conspiracies.


Where you never say anything useful period. Twisted Evil


You're full of crap. Stop posting.

Get back on topic.

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.06.30 03:54:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Zinyai
Akita T never has anything useful to say. Just a bunch of conspiracies.


Actually Akita usually has very good arguments and valid points even when I disagree.

This is just one of those rare occasions when she/he's wrong.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.30 04:26:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Diomedes Calypso
Originally by: Adunh Slavy



I was replying to AKITA (the op)


LOL ok, Akita and Akita's hypotheticals, mine fields. Smile

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.06.30 17:40:00 - [143]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 30/06/2011 17:44:32
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
LOL ok, Akita and Akita's hypotheticals, mine fields. Smile

Yeah, a lot of people have problems with "what if" and "devil's advocate" type of scenarios Wink

Originally by: Skex Relbore
Actually Akita usually has very good arguments and valid points even when I disagree.
This is just one of those rare occasions when she/he's wrong.

You mean, you DON'T think that the scenario I described would have been a better cash earner for CCP (or at least have cost far less in terms of scandal and manpower while bringing in similar amounts of cash) ?
Or you think they're actually already doing that but it's still not enough ?
What exactly am I wrong about here ?


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