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RC Denton
Posted - 2011.06.28 23:32:00 - [1]
 

I'm sure like almost everyone else on here I don't care about vanity items. If they want to price monocles at $70 USD then more power to them and good luck with that. However I think there's a grey area about what is game affecting and what is not. Overall I'm not against being able to pay for something that you can grind to get. I draw the line at being forced to pay for something, in other words you can't get it through normal game play. My $.02 for the CSM are as follows:

Things that don't cross the line:
New ship skins that consume the basic ship to get
Clothes etc for space barbies and Kens
PLEX
Standings (corp specific non-empire. I.E. Cal Navy not Caldari Empire) increases (I don't think this directly affects competition between players enough to qualify as P2W).
Extra fittings slots on the server
Pets for barbie and Ken


Things that do cross the line (P2W stuff)
Gold ammo w better stats
Gold ships w better stats
AUR for SP
AUR for access to regions
AUR for specific skills
Etc


Mouk Sarn
Posted - 2011.06.28 23:59:00 - [2]
 

I would like to see CCP rent out invulnerable 0.0 systems for AUR on a monthly rental basis.

I would also like to see the ability to upgrade such rented systems for some monthly AUR charge. Example upgrades could include a system decloaker that prevents cloaking in that system or access control lists for gates so that the gate will only let you through if you have sufficient standings.

If the CSM doesn't bring these ideas forward at the summit it will only confirm that the CSM is just a PR tool.

Nariya Kentaya
Coalition Of Gentlemen.
Posted - 2011.06.29 01:04:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Mouk Sarn
I would like to see CCP rent out invulnerable 0.0 systems for AUR on a monthly rental basis.

I would also like to see the ability to upgrade such rented systems for some monthly AUR charge. Example upgrades could include a system decloaker that prevents cloaking in that system or access control lists for gates so that the gate will only let you through if you have sufficient standings.

If the CSM doesn't bring these ideas forward at the summit it will only confirm that the CSM is just a PR tool.



or maybe if they dont bring it up it will prove their COMPETENCE, since anything making 0.0 even more stagnant and expensive to live in is total BS...

Vandrion
Gallente
The Collective
B O R G
Posted - 2011.06.29 02:45:00 - [4]
 

The line was here last year when CCP said this:

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.06.29 03:47:00 - [5]
 

Buying standings for Aurum certainly does cross the line - standings services are a popular player-driven industry. Your actions have consequences, and you have to work your way out of those consequences.

Extra fittings slots for saved fittings are being artificially limited to 50. Why should we pay for more? No doubt the folks at CCP would say, "babble babble database load rabble blah" - but then that would open the door to paying Aurum any time you jump into a system that has more than 200 in local.

Out of the three groups defined in Fearless, only "vanity" are acceptable. No "concierge" items, no "power" items. I'd extend a little concession to allow BPCs to be sold, along with seed resources for some PI schematics that result in e.g: "Crate of Monocles" being produced.

Hekira Soikutsu
Posted - 2011.06.29 08:30:00 - [6]
 

Standings are only permissible if it is for the purpose of fixing broken standings, i.e -5 with empire factions. Anything else is for the players to provide such services.

Make it so that there is an option for saving fittings on the computer instead of on the server. There is no reason to to.

Bawbb
Posted - 2011.06.29 08:40:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Bawbb on 29/06/2011 08:40:33
Why would you agree to any market where items can be bought only with AUR but sold for isk? Isk is power too, and if players can't earn AUR or AUR items ingame (without cash in the equation somewhere) that means the vanity items isk market would be completely dominated by real cash investors. In other words its a market for laundering cash to isk. And in case you think that's just like it used to be with plex, I think you're very much mistaken.

The cash>isk market and vanity items MT - Player market in control

*Damn posted with the wrong character, shouldve been Lilandraa

Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.29 08:51:00 - [8]
 

who cares until i can spend my isk to buy aurum

Veshta Yoshida
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.29 10:07:00 - [9]
 

Line for me is drawn where an item bypasses in-game requirements of skill/time.

No standings, no missions, no nothing that is not 100% fluff.

Cyriel Longinus
Caldari
XERCORE
Posted - 2011.06.29 10:19:00 - [10]
 


Micro Transaction in the Noble Exchange store are a means to charge extras for expansions.

“An expansion pack, expansion set, or supplement is an addition to an existing role-playing game, tabletop game or video game. These add-ons usually add new game areas, weapons, objects, and/or an extended storyline to a complete and already released game” - Wikipedia

"CCP does not charge extra for game expansions.“ - EVE Online FAQ

CCP Markets that it does not charge extra for expansion when in fact micro transactions sell addons that should have been included by the subscription fees based upon the customer expectations CCP has set since 2003.

That should include anything a player uses in game.



.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.29 10:39:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Naomi Knight
who cares until i can spend my isk to buy aurum


Sure you can. Go to Jita and pay ISK to buy a Plex. QED

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.29 10:44:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Bawbb
Edited by: Bawbb on 29/06/2011 08:40:33
Why would you agree to any market where items can be bought only with AUR but sold for isk? Isk is power too, and if players can't earn AUR or AUR items ingame (without cash in the equation somewhere) that means the vanity items isk market would be completely dominated by real cash investors. In other words its a market for laundering cash to isk. And in case you think that's just like it used to be with plex, I think you're very much mistaken.

The cash>isk market and vanity items MT - Player market in control

*Damn posted with the wrong character, shouldve been Lilandraa


Sure you can, go to Jita, drop the 360mil isk to buy a plex. QED
In fact, this is going to be the bigger supply of AUR, from people using isk to buy plex to get AUR. I don't think that ANYONE is silly enough to buy AUR with real cash. And its better this way.

At the end of the day, AUR and NEX items is a way for the ISK trillionaires to go around and show you how much better they are than you. As flying their Titans around in highsec is not allowed, how else can you show your wealth in highsec? With a monocle. Or a sexy uniform. Its their way of saying "hey losers, I'm better than you. and don't even think about aggroing me, else I will have my alliance kick you and yours back to the lowsec hole you crawled out of.

:)

Lilandraa
Posted - 2011.06.29 11:23:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Kaelie Onren

Sure you can, go to Jita, drop the 360mil isk to buy a plex. QED
In fact, this is going to be the bigger supply of AUR, from people using isk to buy plex to get AUR. I don't think that ANYONE is silly enough to buy AUR with real cash. And its better this way.


Well I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean, but my point is that plex has to be bought with cash first by a player before it can be turned into aur or sold on the market for isk. So any ingame purchase of plex or aur items for isk is ultimately a trade of cash for isk, there's no way around it. The AUR items market increases the size of the cash>isk items market ingame (formerly that was only plex) enormously.

RC Denton
Posted - 2011.06.29 16:19:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn
Buying standings for Aurum certainly does cross the line - standings services are a popular player-driven industry. Your actions have consequences, and you have to work your way out of those consequences.

Extra fittings slots for saved fittings are being artificially limited to 50. Why should we pay for more? No doubt the folks at CCP would say, "babble babble database load rabble blah" - but then that would open the door to paying Aurum any time you jump into a system that has more than 200 in local.

Out of the three groups defined in Fearless, only "vanity" are acceptable. No "concierge" items, no "power" items. I'd extend a little concession to allow BPCs to be sold, along with seed resources for some PI schematics that result in e.g: "Crate of Monocles" being produced.



With standings I think that buying say 9.0 standings with the caldari navy would be acceptable. Buying increased standings with the caldari empire would not be. Also I could see being able to buy things like loyalty points. You can grind to get there if you want, but if you don't have the time and do have the cash I think it would provide an additional avenue. Anything that basically comes down to cash to isk I think would be ok, because they already have it with PLEX.

Lilandraa
Posted - 2011.06.29 16:33:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Lilandraa on 29/06/2011 16:34:01
Sorry to be spamming your thread :P

Originally by: RC Denton
Anything that basically comes down to cash to isk I think would be ok, because they already have it with PLEX.


That's a big misconception I think, the market for plex was controlled by the limited demand for game time for isk. This made sure that the cash->isk flow would always be marginal compared to the size of the player base (and thus the player market).

Plex was by its nature a very limited cash->isk market, the AUR store is NOT, it opens the floodgates.

Aineko Macx
Posted - 2011.06.29 18:08:00 - [16]
 

The line can't be drawn low/far enough. Every single inch they can get, they'll take to push in MT, introducing more and more of it over time, slowly eroding player resistance, their own philosophy and ethics...

RC Denton
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:27:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: RC Denton on 29/06/2011 19:28:39
Originally by: Lilandraa
Edited by: Lilandraa on 29/06/2011 16:34:01
Sorry to be spamming your thread :P

Originally by: RC Denton
Anything that basically comes down to cash to isk I think would be ok, because they already have it with PLEX.


That's a big misconception I think, the market for plex was controlled by the limited demand for game time for isk. This made sure that the cash->isk flow would always be marginal compared to the size of the player base (and thus the player market).

Plex was by its nature a very limited cash->isk market, the AUR store is NOT, it opens the floodgates.


No worries about spamming. I welcome the discussion. If I understand your argument you're saying that the PLEX market is limited because of the limited demand for isk->playtime. While the NEX store will not be because there will be high demand for the items contained therein. I would say perhaps, but definitely not at the price points they currently have in there. The only thing that might change would be the efficiency. Since AUR has a fixed exchange rate to PLEX and isk does not.

Right now anyone who wants to can purchase a PLEX and sell it to a buy order for isk at a price reasonably close to the sell orders. This suggests that there is a high demand for PLEX since the price is close to equilibrium (buy orders are close to sell orders), and there are a large number of both types of orders. The only thing I would see the NEX store doing would be to fix the PLEX/ISK exchange rate. Assuming they don't sell items that directly affect gameplay that can't be obtained through any other means.

Lilandraa
Posted - 2011.06.29 23:03:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: RC Denton
If I understand your argument you're saying that the PLEX market is limited because of the limited demand for isk->playtime. While the NEX store will not be because there will be high demand for the items contained therein. I would say perhaps, but definitely not at the price points they currently have in there.

I meant that the plex market WAS limited because of the limited demand for isk->playtime, not anymore. But I agree, the current situation is not really a problem. But I believe the intention is to have a bigger selection with a greater price range. The way it is now is kinda half-baked Laughing. I guess just to limit the amount of plex flowing in suddenly since a lot of people have been stockpiling.
Originally by: RC Denton
The only thing that might change would be the efficiency. Since AUR has a fixed exchange rate to PLEX and isk does not.

Hmhm, and I don't think CCP has a good control on that efficiency. The only control they have on the AUR store is limiting the supply of aur items and setting aur item prices. I believe the only way to control the flow of cash to isk is to tie it directly to either an activity or the growth of the eve population with a ratio that the eve universe can cope with.

Originally by: RC Denton
Right now anyone who wants to can purchase a PLEX and sell it to a buy order for isk at a price reasonably close to the sell orders. This suggests that there is a high demand for PLEX since the price is close to equilibrium (buy orders are close to sell orders), and there are a large number of both types of orders.

Well since plex can be traded for aur now we can't use current supply and demand as an example for what i mentioned (would have to check some old stats). But regardless, the market can be deceptive. Unless plexes were consumed by the populace or if the populace grew or if popularity of isk for plex grew, real demand for plex would not have risen. Market manipulation by players (traders trying to buy low and sell high, or traders holding on to plex for instance) can cause fluctuations, bubbles and scarcity though.

There's lots of isk contained in the isk market in the form of unspent plex. But the isk contained in the plex market was exactly that, contained. In order to gain isk from the plex market to spend in other markets you had to either buy a plex with isk and sell it for profit or buy one with cash and sell it. But if a player buys plex with isk to resell it for profit, the real plex supply was not lowered, while demand was (the trader is "holding" the plex for sale). If too much plex was supplied there was natural market saturation and price drops, reducing profitability.

So even though the plex market may still have been profitable, it was competitive because demand was relative to the eve population at a stable and acceptable ratio. Also the "consumption rate" for plex was much lower than what I expect for MT vanity items. I'm worried that the proposed AUR items market can't be controlled by means of prices and supply alone because of the greatly increased and renewed demand. I don't think we can count on the control of demand by the populace like we could with plex.

RC Denton
Posted - 2011.06.29 23:26:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Lilandraa
So even though the plex market may still have been profitable, it was competitive because demand was relative to the eve population at a stable and acceptable ratio. Also the "consumption rate" for plex was much lower than what I expect for MT vanity items. I'm worried that the proposed AUR items market can't be controlled by means of prices and supply alone because of the greatly increased and renewed demand. I don't think we can count on the control of demand by the populace like we could with plex.


I agree. Which is also why I don't think non-vanity items would be a problem as long as there is an alternatate means of obtaining them through player activity. What I would guess is that because the Plex->AUR exchange is fixed but Isk->Plex is not that as new items go into the NEX the isk prices for PLEX would rise astronomically. The MT goods that are based on AUR would inflate in ISK in step with the PLEX costs. At some point the advantage to buying the items for PLEX/AUR instead of ISK would go away as it became alot cheaper to buy it in ISK instead of AUR. Once again assuming that they are items or services that you can get via alternate means. Anything that is game changing and completely NEX specific (outside of things like standings changes) would break that and thus break the economy pretty badly.

There may be some overall inflation on the "isk based" goods that make it into the NEX store, but as long as they can be player made competition should keep that inflation managable which should minimize the impact on the overall EVE economy.

Lilandraa
Posted - 2011.06.30 09:53:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Lilandraa on 30/06/2011 10:21:27
I'd never agree to non-vanity items MT even when they can be earned ingame too because the ppl who can buy them for cash would probably still be at an advantage (easier/quicker access to goods, 100% availability, no need to earn isk first). But I agree that any kind of competition on the market between players working for goods and players paying cash for goods would help to control prices. I would still be slightly worried though about the amount of cash ppl are willing to pay for a little bit of isk vs. the amount of work ingame ppl are willing to do for a certain item. If the cash ppl would accept lower exchange rates (sell for lower isk prices) than the ingame ppl are willing to work for, cash traders would still dominate the market. So yeah there would be natural market saturation like there was with plex, but because of the much bigger market and the greatly increased and renewed demand it would still facilitate a lot more cash->isk trading than we were used to.

It also wouldn't solve the problem with things appearing out of thin air. That's why I thought up the plan in the The cash>isk market and vanity items MT - Player market in control thread. It's the only thing I can think of atm that would solve most of those issues.

Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.30 10:01:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: RC Denton
I'm sure like almost everyone else on here I don't care about vanity items. If they want to price monocles at $70 USD then more power to them and good luck with that. However I think there's a grey area about what is game affecting and what is not. Overall I'm not against being able to pay for something that you can grind to get. I draw the line at being forced to pay for something, in other words you can't get it through normal game play. My $.02 for the CSM are as follows:

Things that don't cross the line:
New ship skins that consume the basic ship to get
Clothes etc for space barbies and Kens
PLEX
Standings (corp specific non-empire. I.E. Cal Navy not Caldari Empire) increases (I don't think this directly affects competition between players enough to qualify as P2W).
Extra fittings slots on the server
Pets for barbie and Ken


Things that do cross the line (P2W stuff)
Gold ammo w better stats
Gold ships w better stats
AUR for SP
AUR for access to regions
AUR for specific skills
Etc




Agreed in full.


 

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