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Nilesa Tanaka
Posted - 2011.06.28 18:35:00 - [1]
 

I'm making this post to confirm a theory that came into my head a few nights ago regarding the heat issues because of this last expansion.

I, myself, have the same issues. My GPU (graphics card) stays at 60C to 65C and that's normal so no problems there. The problem is the CPU. I've seen it shot up approximately 10C to as high as 20C jump. The highest recorded temperature I've seen post-Incarna was 88C.

Now, I'm not willing to spend $80 for a Corsair closed-loop liquid cooling system like the H50, H60, and so on just to play this game.

So, what I am asking of EVE players is this:

If you have or are suffering from overheating issues, please answer the following:
- CPU make and model (i.e.- Intel Q6400 or AMD Phenom II X4 810)
- GPU make and model (i.e.- XFX Radeon 5770 or ASUS GTX 560 Ti)

- Motherboard make and model (i.e.- MSI K9A2 CF)
- Is CPU overclocked?

- CPU temperature pre-Incarna while running the game (i.e.- load temperature)
- CPU temperature post-Incarna while running the game (same as above)

- GPU temperature pre-Incarna
- GPU temperature post-Incarna

- GPU in SLI or Crossfire configuration? And, how many graphics cards?
- Do you own a PhysX card or have dedicated an Nvidia GPU as a PhysX card? (Even hacked ones to work alongside an ATI card.)
- If you do not own a PhysX card or an Nvidia GPU, do you have PhysX software installed because of another game?

[Don't worry I don't work for Nvidia.]

This is my system:
AMD Phenom II X4 805 2.5 GHz, not overclocked
MSI HAWK Radeon 5770, single card
8GB DDR2 RAM
Load temperature pre-Incarna: 71C
Load temperature post-Incarna: 88C

[Note: You can use software such as HWmonitor from CPUID: http://www.cpuid.com/softwares/hwmonitor.html]

No PhysX or Nvidia card.
PhysX installed due to another game installed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Theory #1


The reason I'm asking all this and the theory part of my post is this: (It may sound far-fetch but it's WORTH A SHOT.)

The new engine running Captain's Quarters and character rendering is using a feature called APEX PhysX for hair modeling and clothing physics.

[More information here: http://developer.nvidia.com/apex]

Now, my understanding of PhysX is that it runs entirely on CPU when a non-Nvidia GPU is detected (unless you are one of the few who have been able to run an Nvidia card alongside an AMD/ATI card).

My theory is that the Captain's Quarters is stressing the CPU for physics calculations because of all the rendering that's being done in the environment-- from the mirrors to the interactive displays to the holographic interfaces to the character models themselves.

I would have to say that the issue lies with two parties:
  1. Nvidia for not allowing or optimizing the PhysX codebase including APEX for non-Nvidia GPUs. (Yes, laughable assumption but VERY UNLIKELY Nvidia will change their stance on this.) My belief is that it is PURPOSELY programmed to be hindered and non-optimized on non-Nvidia systems.

  2. CCP themselves for not optimizing the code and testing it thoroughly. There is OpenGL and to a lesser extent OpenCL to use instead of proprietary SDKs like Nvidia PhysX and APEX PhysX but however both don't come close to what PhysX is capable of. That is unless you have the money to spend the extra time to create an entirely new physics engine for EVE that uses no Nvidia code whatsoever.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Theory #2

Now, for those that DO HAVE an Nvidia GPU, are you also suffering heat issues?

My theory is that those who do have an Nvidia GPU and suffering these heat problems either have a low-end to mid-range CPU and/or a lower-end to mid-range video card unable to keep up with the extra calculations in CQ.

Shion Saionji
Posted - 2011.06.28 18:40:00 - [2]
 

Theory #2 (continued)

So, those with an Nvidia GPU, have you tried the following:
- Updating or installing the PhysX System Software found here: http://www.nvidia.com/object/physx-9.10.0513-driver.html

- Have you considered either overclocking either your CPU or GPU to keep up with the extra calculations done in CQ?
(It's a silly suggestion to even consider it since many low-end to mid-range systems do not have sufficient cooling hardware to handle the overclocking. SO DO NOT CONSIDER THIS AS A VIABLE SOLUTION!)

- With CQ set to disabled (static background) in the options screen, has your CPU/GPU temperature decreased OR remained the same?

I'm thinking that the heat issues affect mostly lower-end to mid-range systems. My system above is what I would consider mid-range nowadays. I won't be buying or upgrading a newer system until AMD's Bulldozer FX CPUs are out.

So, if at all, I would like to see what other players have as a computer system and what issues they are having.

Thank you for posting.

Kaizool
Posted - 2011.06.28 19:05:00 - [3]
 

I run an Nvidia card and have not noticed any major increase in temps. I run 2 clients with everything turned up, EVGA GTX 460 SE. CPU is an AMD Phenom II 3ghz...940 black edition I think...I know it has the unlocked stuff on it. I don't overclock it tho. Cooled by an Asetek lclc (same as the Corsair H50).

I will have to say I fully agree with your theory 1. I use to push my physx off to my CPU with my old SLI 9800GTX+'s and would notice that the CPU would push higher temps. I havn't messed with pushing the physix to the cpu since upgrading to the 460 SE a few weeks back.

I am/have always been a fan of Nvidia cards, but I'm not going to bash ATI or say stuff against them. I've owned a few ATI cards also and thought they were quite nice. By the looks of your stats our systems, shy of video cards, are pretty close. Unfortunatly I can't really give you running temps since I really don't keep track of them.

Tommbo
Posted - 2011.06.28 21:06:00 - [4]
 

No overheating issues here.

However, I can assure you that Incarna is significantly more dependent on the CPU than in the past. I have noticed significant gains from overclocking the CPU (up to 30% depending on the hardware). For instance on my primary machine; the difference between 2.3 GHz and 3.3 GHz on a 2600K (with a GTX 580) netted 61 FPS average and 85 FPS average respectively. Increasing the clock speed up to 4.8 Ghz only netted an additional 5-8 FPS so it's really a matter of overcoming a CPU bottleneck.

The graphics are much more flexible since the demands can be adjusted using the in-game settings.

As far as Incarna's stress on hardware is concerned, it's not far outside of other demanding games on the market. The coding definitely could be better to utilize resources more efficiently.

Brahsef Stalin
Posted - 2011.06.28 21:44:00 - [5]
 

Intel i7 960, stock 3.3ghz, 12gig DDR3 RAM, 2 x GTX480 in SLI.

CQ basically tries to melt my video cards, they shoot right up to 94C, the fan hits overdrive and it still doesn't cool. I don't have this in any other game, modern or not, and it's not an issue with airflow, thermal paste, dust, faulty hardware.

Two other people have the same video cards as I do and a similiar setup and have the exact same issues.

Kaetzuo
Posted - 2011.07.08 05:22:00 - [6]
 

I've got a intel i7 920 @2.7Ghz. 6Gb ram & a GTX 260 (192 core version :( ) and I shoot up to 97% GPU load and upto 85C. CPU runs upto 70% load with 70C temps.

Cyra Mangeiri
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.08 07:17:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Cyra Mangeiri on 08/07/2011 07:20:56
I'm not entirely sure if my case applies, but..

I have an Acer Aspire m5811 (yeah, too lazy to build), to which I changed a video card post-incarna. I can't say anything about the pre-incarna temps since I didn't have any kind of monitor back then to observe.

However.. Pre-incarna, I still had a GeForce GT320, which performed well enough, and never made sounds until the CarbonUI update, after which the fans went into jet engine mode. After Incarna hit, I switched the card to GTX460, I thought that should have enough bang to make the fans go silent again, but no dice, it seems. GPU temp hovers at 75-77, 75 with no physics simulation and 77 with it turned on (using the NVidia stuff).

What makes this interesting, sort of, is that I get no difference in temperature whether I'm in CQ or in space, level of detail makes at best for 2 degrees, which falls under random variance. CQ performance didn't alter more than maybe 2-3fps with the change of card, it's as smooth as it can be, but for some reason something is using a hell of a lot of power, and not just in station, but same thing is happening in space. I'd guess it's the UI itself, but I have no way of finding out since I can't turn the UI off even temporarily.

And for completeness' sake:
CPU Core i3 530, stock cooler and clocks, 2,93GHz
GPU Asus ENGTX460 stock
MB, no idea, Asus won't tell me and I'm not opening the case :p
8GB DDR3

Edit: haven't bothered to do any bug report on this, since all it's doing at the moment is making my video card noisy as hell.

Loki Vengeance
Posted - 2011.07.08 13:39:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Brahsef Stalin
Intel i7 960, stock 3.3ghz, 12gig DDR3 RAM, 2 x GTX480 in SLI.

CQ basically tries to melt my video cards, they shoot right up to 94C, the fan hits overdrive and it still doesn't cool. I don't have this in any other game, modern or not, and it's not an issue with airflow, thermal paste, dust, faulty hardware.

Two other people have the same video cards as I do and a similiar setup and have the exact same issues.


Of course it's an issue with hardware. What else could it be? Did Eve Online cast a magical spell that caused your hardware to no longer have effective cooling?

Eve is just software. The worst it can do is run your CPU and/or GPU at 100% load, which CPUs and GPUs are absolutely designed to handle when properly cooled. There is no "overheat" instruction. The CPU and GPU can merely store data, retrieve data, and make calculations on numbers. If doing those things causes overheating, that's an issue with the hardware; either with cooling directly (not enough cooling, not enough airflow in the case, fan going bad, dust on parts creating a thermal blanket, etc) or with the device's firmware and driver which are buggy in such a way as to interfere with active cooling in place.

What I suspect is that Eve is now using new features on some video cards which haven't been properly tested and which may end up producing more heat than manufacturers realized. This, again, is not the fault of Eve Online. Absolutely no instruction application software is capable of sending to your CPU or GPU should EVER result in overheating. If it does, that is a hardware problem; plain and simple.

Damon Arnoles
Posted - 2011.07.08 13:49:00 - [9]
 

Same issue for me, with a i920 and a GTX570 + GTX460.
Overheating with 2 or 3 clients.
2 GPU at 100% of load in Captain's Quarters .... and 90 for each GC.

I downclock my 2 GPUs, i win 10, so 80 for each GC now.
I turn off the CQ and i win 3 more.

My tower has 6x80mm ventilator and 2x120mm. With a power supply Corsair of 850W.
Idle, i have 40-45 for each GC.

JeanTor
Posted - 2011.08.22 09:25:00 - [10]
 

Notice Use this info at your own risk

If you use riva tuner hopefully you know how to find your max gpu temperatures. If you don't know how to find this or don't know what this is,,,, STOP NOW!

Before coming to the speed settings mentioned below I of course played around with different speeds before getting a range that seemed to work. All video cards are different and all systems respond differently so don't take my numbers for the perfect solution, but more as a reference for what to try.

Nvidia 295 GTX 576 X 1242 X 999 /w an I7 940. Just played around with this tonight so I dont have long term data. Using Riva Tuner I dropped my Core Clock speed to 325, linked shader = 700, memory speed = 550. I played around with the fan and settled on 85% which is not great but is better then 100% which is what it stays at any other time. In the Nvidia control panel I select 1 gpu mode (this only seems to keep the temperature from rising faster). On a 295 though 2 gpu's only bump the frames up 2-5 fps anyways, so when you are already dealing with 55-60 who cares. Then inside the game all settings maxed out with a 1920 x 1080 rez. In my quick test im running 93 celcius and 26-28 fps both seem to be stable. This is in the hanger over looking the ship which produces more heat then if in a dog fight. The stock clock and memory settings do run the game at almost constant 60 fps but with 95+ celcius and constant 100% fan. So for me assuming it doesnt cause issues while playing outside of the hanger or video card issues this is a small fix that I can live with. On this peticular card going lower on the settings will reduce the heat but results in less then 25 fps in hanger. I will post again once i've done more testing.

As far as cpu goes my fan never gets loud enough to over power the noise of any other fans in my system. I have played around with affinity on Eve and found that multiple cores def are utilized and compared to most games, utilized quite well. I use vista so I was quite surprised to find this out. I will play around with the above settings and see if dropping to 4 and 2 cores still runs the game well as this maybe could be an option for someone with high cpu noise. Also I use a stock cooler for the 940. The case has a 120 mm low rpm fan in the front and 1 in the rear. The power supply is a 140 mm low rpm which exits the rear. Ambient temperature is between 76-80 F (24.4-26.6 C).

As far as the heat issues I can gain or reduce the temperature a little more by not covering the drilled out portion on the side, however this causes more noise being that the gpu fan is close by. Also if you can stand/afford to have your ambient temperature lower than 76 F then this will also make a big difference in the temperatures.

Of course as mentioned in other posts make sure all your fans aren't being blocked by dust as this adds heat/noise very quickly. I hadnt checked my front fan in a while and realized it was 95% blocked. Just by clearing off the dust I dropped around 8-10 C on average on the gpu just by fixing that. For a short time I played AoC and found that there again heat was an issue. In that game I had to stick closer to stock settings so a 500 core speed. Again it made a big difference in heat. This peticular card seems to be a beast and will take anything I throw at it, as long is the fan is running at the right speed for the job.

As far as Physics, I am running Nvidia and all my ati cards have died, so this doesnt affect me. When playing Mafia 2 with physics I found that the 295 just doesnt have enough umpft to make it work in that game. So I just turned it off.... but that game already looks really good anyways so I didnt mind. I would definately miss the effects in Eve, so hopefully someone can figure out a fix. The only thing I might mention on that subject is rather then going liquid cooling, maybe look into a better air cooler for the cpu. I look at tomshardware for stats on this type of thing, or wherever you go.

Grey Stormshadow
Starwreck Industries
Posted - 2011.08.22 11:14:00 - [11]
 

My detailed stats - did 'em few weeks ago.

Zilero
Posted - 2011.08.22 15:33:00 - [12]
 

Performance of the Eve client is simply broken and has been since february 2011.

I think all the gfx dudes are working on other projects (either that or CCP only have ******ed people working for them).

-zil

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.08.23 16:28:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Othran on 23/08/2011 16:29:57
Originally by: JeanTor
I have played around with affinity on Eve and found that multiple cores def are utilized and compared to most games, utilized quite well.


That's the Windows scheduler doing that. Eve is single-threaded and always has been, probably will be until the game dies. The client actually works much better if you restrict affinity to one cpu core - but not core 0 for obvious reasons.

Undistinguished Gray Suit
Posted - 2011.08.24 22:15:00 - [14]
 

Now that I can finally post...

I think some more details on the cases people are using would be helpful.
There are plenty of cases out there with lots of fans that still have a lousy cooling design out there, along with lots of OEM machines that aren't designed to handle much more than what comes in the box. Stuff a high powered GPU in either of these and you're asking for trouble.

I haven't had any trouble with EVE at all. Here's my setup:
Pedestal Case (Chenbro SR107 I think), 2 92mm intake fans, 2 120x25mm center fans, 1 120x38mm (I think 38 is right - it's the thicker common version) exhaust. All steel, weighs about 50 lbs. Cooling is ok but could be better. The main problem is my front vents tend to plug up. Still, it's a server case and it's designed for performance and not looks.
PC Power & Cooling Silencer 750 PSU (80mm exhaust that hardly does anything except keep the PSU from melting)
2 Opteron 285 processors with some relatively inexpensive Thermaltake 80mm heatsinks on a Supermicro H8DC8
EVGA GTX260 (216 sp version)

Rather than mess with EVE, I loaded my rig up with a proper stress test:
Prime95 running 4 threads with priority set to below normal and
Furmark running in "X-treme" burn-in mode. Furmark is designed to torch GPUs.
Setting prime95 to below normal priority lets Furmark have all the CPU time it needs to torch the GPU while keeping the CPU at full load.
Fan controller set to my usual settings (so not loud)
Cleaned last weekend.

After running that for 10 minutes my CPUs were more or less stable at 60C and 62C, and the vid card was at 86 with 71% fan speed. That's with the vid card and all four CPU cores running at full load.

I'm not sure there is a problem with EVE. As far as I'm concerned a computer should be able to run at full load indefinitely, or at least until it needs a good cleaning. It might help if some of the people with problems would try the stress test I ran. A word of warning though: Furmark has ruined a fair number of graphics cards. My view is that those cards were defective, but that won't protect you.

Finally, a tip on desktop computer cleaning:
Use canned air. A vacuum works great for general dust bunny removal, but you'll never get much out of a graphics card that way and many CPU heatsinks aren't much better. Typical fan on top CPU sinks can be cleaned by taking the fan off and hitting them with a brush and vacuum, but canned air is a lot easier. It also works well on fans.

Pay attention to the temperature of the can. Canned air cans get cold when used, and the pressure starts dropping if they get too cold. If you notice a pressure drop stop and let the can warm up. If you're in a hurry feel free to cuddle up to the can.


Undistinguished Gray Suit
Posted - 2011.08.25 11:51:00 - [15]
 

A little more info:
After running EVE for a few hours last evening the hottest things got was about 75C on the GPU and around 50C on both CPUs.

Zilero
Posted - 2011.08.25 11:59:00 - [16]
 

Its not a question of overheating, its a question of performance.

Why would looking at a door cause my GPU temperature to rise? (and sometimes markedly so)

Why does looking at a door sometimes use more GPU than being undocked?

Why is the performance of the Eve graphics engine so extremely crappy?

Why is it not possible to turn down the effects and shiny objects even further, allowing more people to play Eve?

CCP really dislikes these questions and if anyone has graphics performance problems bug reports are closed with "unable to reproduce".

What is really going on here is probably that CCP has 2011 core I7 with $500 GFX cards all around with nobody (or very few) in house playing Eve on computers even remotely similar to the ones the target audience use. It sure feels like it.

CCP, fix the client performance!

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.08.25 15:33:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Othran on 25/08/2011 15:36:19
Its perhaps worth pointing out some facts here.

It is ABSOLUTELY possible to fry a chip by running it at 100% load - but that is generally only possible if you're doing something which is atypical. For example you could run a continuous loop of code on the same section of the chip causing that specific section to die. Its unusual that this occurs - hence me saying "atypical" but its very possible. The temperature sensors on the chip aren't everywhere - in fact until fairly recently they've been incredibly crude. Now I'm sure a lot of you will choose to disbelieve me, but anyone who has actually done design work at this level knows its not just possible - it actually happens frequently on first revision silicon. Edit - although if you're one of the really big boys at 18/22nm then your costs are in simulation before tape out, can't afford a second rev really.

Now given the amount of people who have complained about gpu heat since Incarna, and given that a lot of them also play modern FPS games without problems, the only logical conclusion to come to is that there's some atypical code which has been created by CCP. Its either that or a hell of a lot of "coincidences" Wink

Secondly - unless you are running an NVidia gpu then your cpu will be doing the physics calculations for clothing & hair. There's an option to turn this simulation off - I suggest you do that as a first step if you're having problems with cpu load/heat. If you have an NVidia card then it may/may not be doing the physics stuff.

All this could of course been avoided if :ccp: hadn't gone for the usual "default to :awesome:" settings. There's times you wonder if total bloody-minded denial/refusal to learn from past mistakes is endemic to Nordic culture, there really is Neutral

Bootleg Jack
Potters Field
Posted - 2011.08.27 00:23:00 - [18]
 

Kind of pointless having a heat discussion if you don't have people listing their cooling Rolling Eyes

I'm running dual GTX 460s, i7 have 2x clients in CQ atm and this web page, my temps are all 23c-24c.

But I also have a 875 watt power supply, liquid cooling and a wind tunnel for my GPUs.

GPUs produce heat when used, that is normal, not keeping them cool is a problem.



Zilero
Posted - 2011.09.01 23:49:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Zilero
Its not a question of overheating, its a question of performance.

Why would looking at a door cause my GPU temperature to rise? (and sometimes markedly so)

Why does looking at a door sometimes use more GPU than being undocked?

Why is the performance of the Eve graphics engine so extremely crappy?

Why is it not possible to turn down the effects and shiny objects even further, allowing more people to play Eve?

CCP really dislikes these questions and if anyone has graphics performance problems bug reports are closed with "unable to reproduce".

What is really going on here is probably that CCP has 2011 core I7 with $500 GFX cards all around with nobody (or very few) in house playing Eve on computers even remotely similar to the ones the target audience use. It sure feels like it.

CCP, fix the client performance!


Bump for the above.


 

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