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52 MonocIes
52 Monocles
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:05:00 - [181]
 

Originally by: White Tree
So here we stand now at a crossroads.


They failed to listen, so we yelled. They failed to listen again, so we primed our guns and pulled our cashflows back. Now they listen. We count on you to deliver to them our voice.

I'm pretty confident that you and other CSM members understand the core problems. I'm just afraid about the one that isn't voiced often enough. Data follows:

1. Developers of LOTRO have a habit of introducing in game (gameplay and interface) obstacles, and then charging players for the ability to remove them. In a free to play game. Looks sad, but understandable in f2p.

2. CCP moved our fittings database to the server and limited the amount to 50, without leaving the option to keep our fittings locally without limits. In 'Fearless' Soundwave speaks about selling more space on the server for them. Looks like the same pattern as in LOTRO, but in a subscription based game.

3. Many players have no problems with buying server space, as long as they also have the option to keep fittings locally without importing/exporting (very non-ergonomic) /mailing them to themselves or similar work-arounds. (check one of many threads about the issue).


4. Will you address the practice of introducing in-game obstacles intentionally?

5. Will you address the above indicated case and can you pressure them to get removed functionality (infinite local storage) back?


Thank you for your time.


Captain Mung
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:10:00 - [182]
 

When the CSM meets with CCP, they need to point them to this thread and make sure they actually pay attention.:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1538210

San Severina
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:13:00 - [183]
 

Edited by: San Severina on 28/06/2011 07:53:27
Blah blah blah blah.

Enjoy your free trip to iceland fanboi!

Just remember it was the players who paid for it. a lot of those players are gone already & by the time the CSM gets through with it's PR exercise a lot more will be gone.

Subs are running out everywhere & valuable players are leaving & we get puff pieces from CSM ****ers telling us how great this cr4p company is & how nobody is to blame yadda yadda yadda.

Whatever dude.

DOOR

edit; it's almost laughable that with the NDA we won't know for sure what in hell happens over there. Seriously, whole thing is a fvcking pathetic joke of the highest order.
Anyway, my sub runs out in 12 days & I doubt I'll even bother to check these forums for whatever BS comes out of the junket - just like to say good Job CSM, you failed me. Miserably & completely failed me.

Cham Palaung
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:24:00 - [184]
 

And what guarantees us that you will indeed represent our concerns ?
You have not listed precisely which points you would defend.
Why should we trust the CSM more than CCP now ?
Anyway, there will have to be an unambiguous answer earlier or later, be it in words or facts.
My subscription remains cancelled until then, because i hate to be handled like an idiot with silence, or hypocrite empty answers.

TheGunslinger42
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:26:00 - [185]
 

Originally by: White Tree
So here we stand now at a crossroads. We've had documentation on the state of internal dialog with CCP made public, we've had analyses of CCPs 'apparent' financial affairs, we've caused a thunderous rumble that the entire gaming world has paid attention too. We've brought Jita to a halt and our collective outrage has caused CCP to stop on a dime and swing towards us with open ears. The CSM has been summoned for an emergency meeting, something that has only happened once before.

So now it may be time to reflect on what we've done. As a community we've come together to express our collective outrage, something I'm personally impressed and excited about. That seems strange though, to use the word 'excited', doesn't it? It's not that I'm not worried but my 'excitement' comes from this communities ability to be so loud, so mighty and so powerful that for brief moments in time we are nothing short of glorious supernovae in the proverbial galaxy of pinpoints that is gaming as a medium.

So, what do we do now? For me, and as many of the CSMs that can make it we will carry the torch of outrage to CCP. We'll stand at Zeus's foot and in your name we'll roar so loud that Olympus will shake. But this is where your opinions and mine may diverge, friends. I don't see our custodians of content as enemies. I can't because I've seen CCP Soundwave reminisce with CSM Seleene about some of the greatest events in EVEs history because he was there. I've sat and talked to CCP Tallest about how this game is balanced, and when I thought he might be getting bored of me he pulled me back because he wanted to talk about EVE with the sort of passion only someone who plaid the damn game would have. I've watched CCP Hilmar (an enemy as we've made him) tell The Mittani about how people in the gaming industry laughed at him when he talked about EVE, and yet here we all are. We walked through the art department knowing that these people spend many a night actually sleeping at the office and working into the wee hours because this was and still is their passion.

CCP isn't really an enemy to me and hey I'm sorry if you don't like that. CCP isn't infallible, they've boned this one, yeah I'm going to tell you that because its the truth. But they've never been infallible, so its our job to make sure that we steer them in the right direction because without the community Captaining this great ship to her ports of call we're all going to sink.

So what I'm asking you for now, as your CSM, as a member of the community and as an EVE player is a moment of patience. They know they fumbled the ball and they're calling half-time to sort their heads and we're going to be the coach that gives them the pep talk and sets them straight so that we, the denizens of New Eden can continue to enjoy this entirely unique and intricate experience.





who the bloody hell talks like that?

Pavel Bidermann
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:27:00 - [186]
 

I want to hope, but there is little left. CCP has botched this "update" beyond belief. However, they have also ruined a community. If it ever comes together again, it will be incomplete. The community is now fighting with itself as well as CCP. I know the CSM will try to get something good out of this, but there is little to hope for there either. Deep down I suspect that CCP is just going to try to get you to say "It's going to be great!". I don't think they have any intentions of doing anything else. The recent events with useless patches, poorly designed software, REALLY bad PR, and no indication of having the ability to even respond to questions has been quite educational. I don't believe CCP has the ability to solve problems since they can't figure out what they are even when they are held up in front of their faces. I am greatful for your optimism but it is probably misplaced. Still, I hope.

BabyEating Dingo
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:28:00 - [187]
 

This just goes to show how useless the CSM is. Enjoy your free vacation, *******.

Mister Poopypants
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:31:00 - [188]
 

It's not what they say, it's what they do.

Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:35:00 - [189]
 

CCP is already well aware of the concerns and desires of the EVE community. CCP is completely informed of what is causing the anger in the community. We’ve been crystal clear. It doesn’t take a trip by the CSM to Iceland to make it any clearer and it does not take consultation with the CSM to remedy the problems. If CCP wanted to ease the anger of the community they could easily do so without the CSM. If they wanted to get input from the CSM, they could easily do that long distance by voice and audio.

The CSM is going to Iceland to be convinced by CCP that they should support CCP’s desires and “manage the player’s expectations”. That’s CCP’s view. I believe the CSM has a somewhat different view, but they should be prepared for CCP’s.

I’ve played this game for five years and I have patience, but my patience is coming to an end. If I don’t hear something good during or, at the very least, immediately after this meeting in Iceland, I will be gone………..and others with me. Gone, not in rage, but quietly leaving something that won’t be working for us anymore.

I wish you luck in Iceland and would urge you to accept fewer free drinks and chummy conversation this time. Do not let yourselves be used to “manage player expectations”.

-Windjammer

Cean
Caldari
Hihhulit
The Polaris Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:35:00 - [190]
 

Originally by: Dreya Renthold
Originally by: Kelly Alleron
Below is my input to CCP Pann's thread. This sums up how me and my mates feel about CCP atm. We still love them and will be playing till the servers shutdown. But, as with most relationships we are in a slump.

Originally by: Kelly Alleron
Edited by: Kelly Alleron on 24/06/2011 06:41:03
@ CCP Pann: Welcome back to the foreground. We've missed seeing you.
@ CCP Manifest: Thank you for reading and responding, even in the limited way you are able to atm.
@ CCP Fallout and the other Moderators: I figure the outrage over this is causeing you to work extramly hard and put in much overtime, that you could be spending elswhere. Thank you.

Now on to my bit.

I am aware that i'll probably never get a responce for this (seeing how far back in the post it is and how busy everyone is (Edit: and cause its in the middle of the page)). I also apoligize for my spelling on some words. I joined EVE for several reasons.

1. My friend who told me about it said it was "A syfi MMO, with a ruthless community, and a made by a company that dosnt care about making money or what the rest of the gaming industry is doing, they cared about making the best syfi mmo possible."
2. EVE runs on a sub base, not MT, not FTP. Sub.
3. Over the years i have played (excluding the past 9 or so months) CCP has repeatedly proven that they are far better masters then say.. Blizzard or insert other mmo developer here. CCP listens to its player base and are players themselves.

Till recently. I feel abandond by CCP.

When the majority of the player base said "WIS will be fine if we can keep the old hanger view and just have a button to to disembark to our CQ." CCP brushed us off, or flat out ignored us. Making the use of WIS MANDITORY.
When the majority of the player base said "MT is not ok. We dont want it." or "We want it so long as its affordable." CCP brushed us off, or flat out ignored us. Pants that cost hundreds of millions of isk is not ok. the most expencive desiner clothing i have ever seen (in person) was 17000 USD. Just walking in the door of that store you got free cappachino, and where treated like a god. They even had a fountain with fish in there lobby. The NEX dose not give/have that. Why dose a T-Shirt cost more to buy then a Battlecruiser?
So far this year i have noticed that the Devs and the leadership of CCP have drifted farther and farther away from the players. The more money CCP seems to make the less they seem to care about us. And the closer the get to being like OTHER mmo companys. Are we nothing more then a pay check to you?
I dont blame anyone. I will not quite. You spent years shaping the community of EVE into a terrifyingly dedicated force. Please dont abandon us or what you have created in order to pad your pockets with an influk of WOWers, and FB gamers.



Wow. Good words.


This.

I am currently thinking about Blizzard being better host. They atleast had balls to **** on my face and not hide stuff or **** on my back like CCP now... Should I laugh or cry?

ViperLok
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:42:00 - [191]
 

I'm Sure that this is exactly what CCP was trying to slip past us. I WONT PAY MORE TO Save this game.
CCP Never gives back ships lost because we forgot to turn on our hardeners. A mistake is a mistake.


Silas Cooper
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:43:00 - [192]
 

Per Hilmar's email; words mean nothing, only actions. My accounts stay unrenewed (first one to run out in 8 days) until the CSM meeting is over and the result is both positive as set in stone. Until then we can't do much other than keeping the "pressure" on, showing that we haven't run out of steam just yet.


RougeOperator
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:54:00 - [193]
 

Will they do non vanity MTs.

What is their financial status. Should we be worried.

Have they actually read and understood the threads on this forum. Has mister CEO see what they do read the threads.

Pickaxe Mike
Psykotic Meat
C0NVICTED
Posted - 2011.06.28 07:06:00 - [194]
 

Originally by: Anna Maziarczyk
Edited by: Anna Maziarczyk on 28/06/2011 06:09:29
Its painfully obvious EVE has been abandoned for work on Twilight Online and Dust. This needs to be addressed.



This is my take on the problem and why I've unsubscribed my accounts.

EVE's future is bleak because game design decisions are being driven by Dust and WOD. The last couple of expansions really crystalized the problem for me. EVE has just become a cash cow and testing ground for CCP's other games. Honestly, if Dust didn't exist, would CCP have thrown planetary interaction into EVE? If CQ didn't share code with WOD, would they have grafted CQ onto a spaceship game?

Everyone knows what needs to be fixed in EVE: ship balancing, making PVE more interactive, incentives for lowsec, and so on. CCP isn't attaching resources to these problems because the fixes won't help their other games.

I hope the CSM can impress on CCP that EVE has been seriously neglected. I also hope that CCP can do great things in the future. As it stands CCP is not making a game I want to buy.

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
Posted - 2011.06.28 07:08:00 - [195]
 

Having second thoughts for deciding to make this thread yet, White Tree?

You know nothing short of Hilmar shooting himself in the head on a live stream will appease these animals.

Is it any wonder CCP ignores them completely? As you will too, shortly.

They are setting themselves up for a self fulfilling prophesy by destroying any chance of communication and then blaming CCP for it.

Tools!

Get out of my EVE!

Mr Epeen Cool

Dr Hsu
Posted - 2011.06.28 07:12:00 - [196]
 

CCP needs to own that their continued neglect of EVE resulted in the conditions for a firestorm. They have no good-will left. This WILL happen again if they don't maintain the core game.

The specter of Pay to Win made me ready to give up on EVE. The idea of paying twice for a game that isn't even getting 1x payment worth of development made me go nuclear.

2014 the soonest for T3 frigs? Sry nop. CCP gets good money from EVE subscriptions, they need to apply it to their game. SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!

I get that they have other games to develop, but they need to get that they have a commitment to a subscription based game, a commitment that they ignore at their own peril.

Ciar Meara
Amarr
Virtus Vindice
Posted - 2011.06.28 07:15:00 - [197]
 

Originally by: Obviously Confidential

The CSM will handle this with CCP, I have confidence in both.



I'll trust you completly until you betray me.

CCP has lost my faith, let the CSM rebuild it.

But I keeping my accounts unsubbed
But I am not remaining silent on the forums
And If my ship happens to circle amarr statues and shooting them these past few days. I find it relaxing...(plus I got some really good hits)

IVeige
Caldari
IVever.
Posted - 2011.06.28 07:16:00 - [198]
 

The question was simple, we asked for a simple answer. If you dont come back with that simple answer..you will have failed us.

Here is your chance to prove us that you can make a difference, that you can be there for us....dont miss it or those torchs that you carry from us to ccp, will burn you as well Wink


Baillif
AQUILA INC
Posted - 2011.06.28 07:17:00 - [199]
 

Let the CSM take their crack at CCP and see what happens. It's hard to stay mad for long periods of time so it's best to just chill out (for now) and save all our ****storm riot energy in case it becomes necessary.

In the meantime take some Valiums and think happy thoughts.

Like ponies

Markus Jome
Posted - 2011.06.28 07:18:00 - [200]
 

White Tree, your words are respectable. But the patience is gone. Whatever change in behaviour CCP wants from us, it won't come before thursday.

Smagd
Encina Technologies
Namtz' aar K'in
Posted - 2011.06.28 07:20:00 - [201]
 

Honest guys, I wish you the best of luck but please don't come back with a 2 week NDA and then bad news.

Lemmy Kravitz
Minmatar
Rebirth.
Posted - 2011.06.28 07:42:00 - [202]
 

Let there be no pause let there be no quarter, mercy is reserved for people of honor. CCP through it's actions and leaks have shown they have no honor, their word has as much worth as the gum under our boot. Let the subscriptions continue to drop in protest, keep CCP's feet to the fire if and only if a majority of the communities issues are resolved should we pull back from the brink. Do not listen to this UNCLE TOM of a CSM representative, a placater an apologist. A representative who writes to us like he doesn't have the balls to the use the leverage given to the CSM by the community to change CCP and improve EVE. Strikes don't work if you back off during negotiations.

Pearljammer 5657
Caldari
Last Exit.
Posted - 2011.06.28 07:42:00 - [203]
 

This is why I love Eve, as a communtiy we have come together to protect the game we love. I am so damn proud of all the protesters. I want to feel optimistic and believe the tide has turned and CCP is ready to fix the mistakes and answer the questions.

CSM you must be strong, and aggressive. You know what we want and now its time for you to take your place in Eve history. Will it be hero or enemy, I dont know.

Make CQ optional
Bring back the old hanger
Vanity items only in Nex Store

Next expansion has to be huge, dont say sorry, make a pvp expansion in the winter CCP.



Inara 5
Posted - 2011.06.28 07:45:00 - [204]
 

Originally by: Kaltor e'Daw
I applaud the optimism, but the only thing that will ever appease the vast majority of those who have indeed banded together is a complete reversal of the proposed RMT.

I don't believe anything else will be effective.



(Disclaimer: I know that you and most of the posters get this. This is for the person skimming through the thread going 'WTF?')

The problem is that even the Russian and Chinese macro miners are at least putting some effort into things. They then go and sell their minerals or whatever for real money, so that the buyer can get the ISK. Supposedly, including according to CCP, this "destroys the EVE economy" and is therefore bad. Then CCP turns around and does it.

PLEX is something where a person gives CCP x dollars, and gets y ISK out of it. Those ISK were produced in the economy. Someone had to raise those ISK somehow. (Ignoring the people just playing swing trading on the PLEX market.) CCP has to find some way to reduce the amount of ISK in the game, and reduce the stockpile of PLEXes. The first is for the good of the game. The second is so they can make their corporate balance sheet better for investors. AUR is a good way to do it, but if they start selling game-changing things, then they are doing the same thing the Chinese and Russian botters are doing. (No, PLEX is different because it creates nothing. Someone made the ISK in game.)

AUR for vanity items makes a lot of sense. Implement it, and if people want to buy the stuff, then they can either buy PLEX and convert it, or buy GTCs, convert them into PLEX, and then convert it. CCP wins in either case here. In the first, the total number of PLEX out there is reduced. In the latter, they sold another GTC with no real impact on the economy.

Unfortunately, the issue here is that pay-to-win scenario. If people are paying $68 for monocles, let them. I think they're stupid, but it's their money, and ultimately I (and CCP and the rest of EVE) benefit from it. On the other hand, if someone can pay $68 to buy soverignty in a system or something, then they just broke the game. Horribly.

All that people are really wanting is for CCP to say "No, we are never going to have any kind of micro (or macro) transaction which provides a player with in-game advantages because they forked over cash." Unfortunately, because CCP has danced around this and blown a lot of the community's trust, even if they said that it probably wouldn't be believed.

Before this incident, I quit several MMOs including Star Trek Online because, as in the case of STO, they were selling major 'play-to-win' items. That makes what I accomplish in the game not matter, because someone can go sell a few crack rocks and buy a Titan (extreme example).

In short: Vanity items? Who gives a damn. Game-changing items? Big problem.

The issue here is that CCP cannot actually assure us that they won't implement the latter, which is why there's so much rage and gnashing of teeth. Even if they do, they've trashed their own credibility, and nothing short of a massive writeup is going to ever even start to repair that.

Instead, we get the comment about no "gold ammo," and then no clarification. This indicates to me that the writer was told to STFU.

The other issues, like walking-in-stations, is also a big who cares as long as it can be turned off, and they fix however they screwed up the graphics code. (ATI cards are running pretty hot, but I can run CQ on my nVidia _laptop_, which makes me wonder how this got screwed up.)Now, if they do that and then they add other content, like multiplayer aspect to WiS and more than one room, then it actually enhances the environment. Now you can hang out in a bar with your pirate buddies screaming 'Yarrr!' and talking about plans. Frankly, I think CCP can actually pull that off.

Dr Hsu
Posted - 2011.06.28 07:59:00 - [205]
 

I wouldn't even mind paying like $15 for an expansion if there was legally binding language that stipulated that 100% of that $15 was ear-marked for EVE R&D. No stealing it for WoD or Dust.

Make the expansion stuff unlock for everyone that didn't buy the expansion after like 1-2 months. i.e. if Tier 4 battleships were in the expansion, then only people who ordered the expansion would be able to pilot them until such time as they unlocked for everyone.

Offer the winter expansion up for pre-order before this loan re-financing business comes to pass to hopefully give CCP some good numbers to get monies with.

Mikal Morataya
Posted - 2011.06.28 08:01:00 - [206]
 

Good luck White Tree. Like others I am skeptical as CCP could just say 'No game changing items will be added for MT, vanity items only'. They have not. So there is a good chance CCP will just be trying to persuade you guys why MT for win is not evil. :(

Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.06.28 08:02:00 - [207]
 

How many monocles and designer jeans did CCP promise you to say that White Tree? Pathetic.

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
Posted - 2011.06.28 08:03:00 - [208]
 

Originally by: Dr Hsu
I wouldn't even mind paying like $15 for an expansion if there was legally binding language that stipulated that 100% of that $15 was ear-marked for EVE R&D. No stealing it for WoD or Dust.

Make the expansion stuff unlock for everyone that didn't buy the expansion after like 1-2 months. i.e. if Tier 4 battleships were in the expansion, then only people who ordered the expansion would be able to pilot them until such time as they unlocked for everyone.

Offer the winter expansion up for pre-order before this loan re-financing business comes to pass to hopefully give CCP some good numbers to get monies with.


I'm sure they will have have their legal dept. get to work on this as soon as your post is brought to their attention.

Because you're really important.

San Severina
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.28 08:05:00 - [209]
 

Originally by: Inara 5
Originally by: Kaltor e'Daw
I applaud the optimism, but the only thing that will ever appease the vast majority of those who have indeed banded together is a complete reversal of the proposed RMT.

I don't believe anything else will be effective.



(Disclaimer: I know that you and most of the posters get this. This is for the person skimming through the thread going 'WTF?')

The problem is that even the Russian and Chinese macro miners are at least putting some effort into things. They then go and sell their minerals or whatever for real money, so that the buyer can get the ISK. Supposedly, including according to CCP, this "destroys the EVE economy" and is therefore bad. Then CCP turns around and does it.

PLEX is something where a person gives CCP x dollars, and gets y ISK out of it. Those ISK were produced in the economy. Someone had to raise those ISK somehow. (Ignoring the people just playing swing trading on the PLEX market.) CCP has to find some way to reduce the amount of ISK in the game, and reduce the stockpile of PLEXes. The first is for the good of the game. The second is so they can make their corporate balance sheet better for investors. AUR is a good way to do it, but if they start selling game-changing things, then they are doing the same thing the Chinese and Russian botters are doing. (No, PLEX is different because it creates nothing. Someone made the ISK in game.)

AUR for vanity items makes a lot of sense. Implement it, and if people want to buy the stuff, then they can either buy PLEX and convert it, or buy GTCs, convert them into PLEX, and then convert it. CCP wins in either case here. In the first, the total number of PLEX out there is reduced. In the latter, they sold another GTC with no real impact on the economy.

Unfortunately, the issue here is that pay-to-win scenario. If people are paying $68 for monocles, let them. I think they're stupid, but it's their money, and ultimately I (and CCP and the rest of EVE) benefit from it. On the other hand, if someone can pay $68 to buy soverignty in a system or something, then they just broke the game. Horribly.

All that people are really wanting is for CCP to say "No, we are never going to have any kind of micro (or macro) transaction which provides a player with in-game advantages because they forked over cash." Unfortunately, because CCP has danced around this and blown a lot of the community's trust, even if they said that it probably wouldn't be believed.

Before this incident, I quit several MMOs including Star Trek Online because, as in the case of STO, they were selling major 'play-to-win' items. That makes what I accomplish in the game not matter, because someone can go sell a few crack rocks and buy a Titan (extreme example).

In short: Vanity items? Who gives a damn. Game-changing items? Big problem.

The issue here is that CCP cannot actually assure us that they won't implement the latter, which is why there's so much rage and gnashing of teeth. Even if they do, they've trashed their own credibility, and nothing short of a massive writeup is going to ever even start to repair that.

Instead, we get the comment about no "gold ammo," and then no clarification. This indicates to me that the writer was told to STFU.

The other issues, like walking-in-stations, is also a big who cares as long as it can be turned off, and they fix however they screwed up the graphics code. (ATI cards are running pretty hot, but I can run CQ on my nVidia _laptop_, which makes me wonder how this got screwed up.)Now, if they do that and then they add other content, like multiplayer aspect to WiS and more than one room, then it actually enhances the environment. Now you can hang out in a bar with your pirate buddies screaming 'Yarrr!' and talking about plans. Frankly, I think CCP can actually pull that off.



CCP Alt detected ^^ I struggled through that mind bending-ly stupid post just to make sure.


Johannes Alexodia
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.28 08:08:00 - [210]
 

I see insults from both sides. What is the point of CCP trying to open a dialog if your going to not give the CSM a chance. CCP can bite me for their stupid letter and if they cant get rid of hilmar damn im gonna be ****ed. However... A pragmatist is a realist. We ranted and raved about no dialog. CCP is calling the CSM possibly to browbeat them or to actually negotiate. We must give the CSM a chance to do what we elected them to do.

If we don't were doing exactly what CCP did to us. I say give CSM a chance. They fail we do to them what we do to CCP. Simple.


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