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blankseplocked CCP needs $ 8 Mil by October, else bankruptcy!
 
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Spacing Cowboy
Caldari
Rule of Five
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:19:00 - [91]
 

Im no math wizzard or kind of pushed to do it anyway atm

what if ccp would allow to train , 2 caracters ( or 3 ) on 1 account
for a reduced price..

Say, 1 plex a month for your first one *main* , 1/2 a plex for a 2e and even 3e to train
at the same time.

- would this *break* the caracter reselling vallue ( make people go nuts, burn the devs at the stake
- would this, or ... how much, would be needed to screw the whole aurum crap and let the debt
be payed off like this in -record- time

Namura Kautsuo
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:20:00 - [92]
 

Pics or it didn't happen.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:22:00 - [93]
 

Originally by: Josh Bolder
I have not seen this supposed finance document, but you all seem to be speculating on a cash flow forecast. Which may have many varying aspects, not to forget that the engines and code itself will be sold to other markets e.g. the quake engine or the Unreal Engine and many more.
Carbon is not being licensed out to other developers beyond being (essentially) a CCP franchise to get their games into markets that CCP themselves can't/won't cover.

Mr Jebidea
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:23:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: Noran Ferah
I love all the incredible moguls of business chiming in here. Ludicrous.


Of course the banks will never refinance a loan, will they? And there is no possible way that the shareholders of CCP would ever perform a cash infusion if necessary, eh? Nevar!

pffft... Explains everything indeed.


Agreed, I like how people who know nothing of market incentives assume that investors jump ship the second companies dip into the red and that banks are big bad demons that never budge their money grubbing fingers. People need yo get a grip, capitalism isn't at all like they taught in public school.

Heathyy
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:32:00 - [95]
 

quick sell the Yachts!

Valei Khurelem
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:38:00 - [96]
 

Edited by: Valei Khurelem on 28/06/2011 06:38:11
Originally by: Anna Maziarczyk
Originally by: Valei Khurelem
I'm sorry, but how the **** does a relatively small games company like CCP blow 8 million on running one game and developing two others?

Math does not compute.

Unless of course they've been ****ing it away on parties which is the more likely thing.


$1000 Jeans and Chess Boxing.


lol oh I bloody hope not :D That may explain the ******ed comparison that the deb gave on that blog.

CCFAIL
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:41:00 - [97]
 

Well the financial report is quite clear, but where did you guys get that that loan of 2009 is due in october?
I couldn't find that information yet.


Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:51:00 - [98]
 

Originally by: CCFAIL
Well the financial report is quite clear, but where did you guys get that that loan of 2009 is due in october?
I couldn't find that information yet.
Page 31, point 19.1.(i).

Uglavitch Nefrex
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.06.28 07:09:00 - [99]
 

Edited by: Uglavitch Nefrex on 28/06/2011 07:10:23
Speculation. I dunno, Is EvE in financial difficulty's?, possibly. A company as small and fragile as CCP should of never overstretched itself to manage one game and produce two new games at the same time. The problem they have is after burning through $25m they are still left without their new games and subsequently are looking at their "Only" product to to increase the funding of their new projects. Which is fine, CCP isn't a democracy they can spend their profits on whatever they want, but when you mess with the winning formula of their only product, they are going to get themselves into real troubles.

The CSM meeting shall be very interesting if we actually get told what is going on.

PepperPotts
Posted - 2011.06.28 07:10:00 - [100]
 

I guess we should all just cancel our accounts now, since the game will not exist in October anyway..

I just did, will you?

Digital Messiah
Gallente
N7 Corporation
PandaMonium.
Posted - 2011.06.28 07:18:00 - [101]
 

Eve has had a fairly steady subscription increase over it's 8 year life span. eight years... One would consider that a company going for that long while making a profit might have its debts and bills in order? Also why is WOD and Dust being paid for right now. It would make more sense to assume they are on separate loans or being paid in part with savings accumulated over the years. As a game developer doesn't assume it will only make one product. This whole thread only feeds the "i quit" trolls. And I see no constructive value by talking about it, without definitive proof to back it up.

My signature is extended to all those who are quitting.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.28 07:21:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: Zombatar
Edited by: Zombatar on 28/06/2011 00:27:57
Edited by: Zombatar on 28/06/2011 00:26:22
Originally by: Indy Rider
Its 800k, not 8 million.

EVE is still profitable, the problem is that WoD and Dust dev costs are going through the roof at the moment.

The problem is, CCP have a loan of 12 million due in October they have to pay, of which they have 11.2. Once they pay that back they have no cash. Thats the problem, not bankruptcy.

It also explains the 18 months of nothing, it was to cut costs. And as to why Incarna was rushed and buggy, get new subs along side MT so they can pay this loan back.


False.

They had $ 11.223.672 cash at 31 Dec 2010.
They spend about $ 8 Mil cash/year.
By October 2011 they have to bring an extra 12 mil out of nowhere to pay the loan.

You do the math.





I've done the maths, and it looks fine to me, since I took into account the fact that CCP has an income of around $4.5M a month.

Scott Ryder
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2011.06.28 07:22:00 - [103]
 

8 mill, thats like 8000 pants!

Smagd
Encina Technologies
Namtz' aar K'in
Posted - 2011.06.28 07:25:00 - [104]
 

Nice FUD thread there: "MT ARE GOOD OTHERWISE THE GAME ENDS!"

Well, for me, if it goes MT it already HAS ended.

Steve Thomas
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.06.28 07:25:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: Shadow XII
Originally by: Arias Dren
LOVING how the CCP apologists and alts are staying FAR away from this topic right now. Speaks volumes.


You can't argue with cold hard fact, and the fact is CCP has dug themselves into a pit with their own over-ambitious bull****.

Trying to take the income from one game to maintain it and make two others? What the **** were they thinking?


that if they could make EVE with about 20 people originaly (actualy less than that) then surely they could do 3 games with 30 times the staff....

Bascialy I think part of it was "Well we want to do Walking in stations, we want to create a new system for it as well. . . why not make two diferent games with the same Egnine!

lets face it, making a second game(WOD) is actualy more of a plan B for CARBON.

RougeOperator
Posted - 2011.06.28 07:26:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Zombatar
Edited by: Zombatar on 28/06/2011 00:27:57
Edited by: Zombatar on 28/06/2011 00:26:22
Originally by: Indy Rider
Its 800k, not 8 million.

EVE is still profitable, the problem is that WoD and Dust dev costs are going through the roof at the moment.

The problem is, CCP have a loan of 12 million due in October they have to pay, of which they have 11.2. Once they pay that back they have no cash. Thats the problem, not bankruptcy.

It also explains the 18 months of nothing, it was to cut costs. And as to why Incarna was rushed and buggy, get new subs along side MT so they can pay this loan back.


False.

They had $ 11.223.672 cash at 31 Dec 2010.
They spend about $ 8 Mil cash/year.
By October 2011 they have to bring an extra 12 mil out of nowhere to pay the loan.

You do the math.





I've done the maths, and it looks fine to me, since I took into account the fact that CCP has an income of around $4.5M a month.


But are still losing money each month. The overhead is eating them alive.

The are not taking in as enough to pay the bills.

CCFAIL
Posted - 2011.06.28 07:54:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: CCFAIL
Well the financial report is quite clear, but where did you guys get that that loan of 2009 is due in october?
I couldn't find that information yet.
Page 31, point 19.1.(i).


thx, must have missed that one

Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.06.28 07:56:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: RougeOperator
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Zombatar
Edited by: Zombatar on 28/06/2011 00:27:57
Edited by: Zombatar on 28/06/2011 00:26:22
Originally by: Indy Rider
Its 800k, not 8 million.

EVE is still profitable, the problem is that WoD and Dust dev costs are going through the roof at the moment.

The problem is, CCP have a loan of 12 million due in October they have to pay, of which they have 11.2. Once they pay that back they have no cash. Thats the problem, not bankruptcy.

It also explains the 18 months of nothing, it was to cut costs. And as to why Incarna was rushed and buggy, get new subs along side MT so they can pay this loan back.


False.

They had $ 11.223.672 cash at 31 Dec 2010.
They spend about $ 8 Mil cash/year.
By October 2011 they have to bring an extra 12 mil out of nowhere to pay the loan.

You do the math.





I've done the maths, and it looks fine to me, since I took into account the fact that CCP has an income of around $4.5M a month.


But are still losing money each month. The overhead is eating them alive.

The are not taking in as enough to pay the bills.


The maths, he's done them

Zombatar
Posted - 2011.06.28 09:05:00 - [109]
 

Edited by: Zombatar on 28/06/2011 09:07:25
Guys the financial statement is a public document, anyone can get it. It's not like a leak or something you can get banned for.

CCP will certainly receive extra funding, however at what cost and price?

EVE makes over 50 mil a year gross profit. After all expenses the company still makes 5-6 mil profit/year. But this is clearly not enough to pay a 12 $ mil loan during a high season with so many expenses like 2 game developments. I'm afraid CCP does not have such liquidity and thus will need to find additional resources to finance its development.

We only have data up to the end of 2010, so 2011 might bring some interesting surprises, however what is happening in EVE is connected to the above.

Making EvE bring more money is only natural, considering that DUST's whole strategy is to make money by selling better guns, so you see, better ships in EVE is not a far fetched idea.

So how is this relevant? Well what is happening now in EvE and in general at CCP is that first they need some serious quick money to pay their loans and second they want to boost their income with eve by selling crap vanity items and later ubber ships for rl $. This will improve their metrics and maybe increase the profit margins until CCP releases DUST and WoD, making new loans easier to take.

Problem is that if CCP new games will fail, well, they will have some serious damage control to do. As I see it CCP will take some new loans, bigger this time and when they are due, if they wont sell those games nicely they are in **** situation.

This ofc is only speculation, but I can't help it to see how CCP's development is motivated by greed and money. It's no longer about EVE, but how to make more money and sell more stuff (vanity items, new games, etc.). The company has no more connection to the games. It's 100% business from here on.

Is that bad? Well atm for EVE this is very bad IMO. Resources are spent on DUST and WOG instead of EVE, plus EVE gets trashed with expansions that sell clothes, so you see our space game just got trolled.

Make ur own judgement, u got enough info here.


Nobile Sheeraan
Ancient Malevolence
Posted - 2011.06.28 10:38:00 - [110]
 

Guys.

If you really like this game then just keep playing it, stop giving CCP grief, and invite friends to give it a go. What do any of you actually think you'll achieve by whining and *****ing? Let them do their thing, they're one of the most successful MMO companies in existence.

irion felpamy
Minmatar
Assisted Genocide
Unprovoked Aggression
Posted - 2011.06.28 11:16:00 - [111]
 

Originally by: Nobile Sheeraan
If you really like this game then just keep playing it, stop giving CCP grief, and invite friends to give it a go.


I don't throw good money after bad, if this game is going **** up with pay to win and/or eve getting sold off to cover Dust/WoD development costs I want out now not later. I like driving my car but I don't invite my friends to jump into it if I think I'm about to crash.

Harland White
Posted - 2011.06.28 11:28:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: Zombatar
Originally by: ACY GTMI
Edited by: ACY GTMI on 27/06/2011 23:37:47
Are you suggesting that is our fault?

Edit: Forgot one of my favorite mottoes. "Never encourage failure."



I blame $ 20+ Mil spent on WoD and Dust... That is the issue. You can't have one game (EvE) pay 700 wages, finance 2 game developments then have money left to re-invest in EvE.

We are basically paying with our EVE sub for WoD and Dust, I could be ok with that, if EvE wouldn't suffer. This is not the case though.

EVE is being milked to the last drop. Why? Because CCP was TOO ambitious. Too much for EvE it seems...

This, this, this.

Simanti
Posted - 2011.06.28 11:37:00 - [113]
 

Wow - I have to say CCP have done some things to wind people up recently - but clearly very few people here have any idea of how a company works, software companies in particular!

CCP MAY need to look at how they manage their cash flow and beef up their risk analysis - but they are not doomed.

Boaz Hedion Merkava
Posted - 2011.06.28 11:42:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: Simanti
Wow - I have to say CCP have done some things to wind people up recently - but clearly very few people here have any idea of how a company works, software companies in particular!

CCP MAY need to look at how they manage their cash flow and beef up their risk analysis - but they are not doomed.


Nice statement. Please back it up. With facts.

Lederstrumpf
Posted - 2011.06.28 11:44:00 - [115]
 

Originally by: Righteous Deeds
The epic nature of the PR failure is one of the most fascinating parts of this whole thing.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A88B8L6_75s

Vincentus
Posted - 2011.06.28 12:26:00 - [116]
 

Edited by: Vincentus on 28/06/2011 12:46:23
Edited by: Vincentus on 28/06/2011 12:30:04
Originally by: Zombatar
Edited by: Zombatar on 28/06/2011 09:07:25
Guys the financial statement is a public document, anyone can get it. It's not like a leak or something you can get banned for.

CCP will certainly receive extra funding, however at what cost and price?

EVE makes over 50 mil a year gross profit. After all expenses the company still makes 5-6 mil profit/year. But this is clearly not enough to pay a 12 $ mil loan during a high season with so many expenses like 2 game developments. I'm afraid CCP does not have such liquidity and thus will need to find additional resources to finance its development.

We only have data up to the end of 2010, so 2011 might bring some interesting surprises, however what is happening in EVE is connected to the above.

Making EvE bring more money is only natural, considering that DUST's whole strategy is to make money by selling better guns, so you see, better ships in EVE is not a far fetched idea.

So how is this relevant? Well what is happening now in EvE and in general at CCP is that first they need some serious quick money to pay their loans and second they want to boost their income with eve by selling crap vanity items and later ubber ships for rl $. This will improve their metrics and maybe increase the profit margins until CCP releases DUST and WoD, making new loans easier to take.

Problem is that if CCP new games will fail, well, they will have some serious damage control to do. As I see it CCP will take some new loans, bigger this time and when they are due, if they wont sell those games nicely they are in **** situation.

This ofc is only speculation, but I can't help it to see how CCP's development is motivated by greed and money. It's no longer about EVE, but how to make more money and sell more stuff (vanity items, new games, etc.). The company has no more connection to the games. It's 100% business from here on.

Is that bad? Well atm for EVE this is very bad IMO. Resources are spent on DUST and WOG instead of EVE, plus EVE gets trashed with expansions that sell clothes, so you see our space game just got trolled.

Make ur own judgement, u got enough info here.




Ehm no. They have a revenue of 55M a year, but the only reason they are reporting a EBITDA profit is because of some nice accounting gimmicks (totally legal btw). They are actually making a net loss in their cash flow of 8M+ a year because of development costs. Since they had 11M at year end 2010 (which they only had because they made their investors pay 16M, which they were obliged to do by law, otherwise they would have a negative cash balance of 5M, e.a. bankrupt if no one else wants to pay), if they haven't received additional cash in the meantime and since they have hired a bunch of extra staff last year, they probably have around 7.5M left as we speak, and will only have left 4M at the end of October, which is when they need to pay back a loan of 11M+. So that's already a shortage of cash of 7M+. What CCP is hoping is that Dust will be a big success which will solve all their problems, and this is of course also what they are telling investors and their banks. But since no one has any real idea of how successful Dust is going to be (it could be a new cash cow, but it could just as easily be a big fail), they are basically telling their investors and bankers:
Hey look, we made a nice pwetty roulette game, and we want you to collectively put around 20M on black and we will all get :rich:! Of course, they need lots of pwetty charts and pies to convince them to do so, and I'm gonna leave it up to you to figure out where they are going to base those pies on Razz

Elienore
Posted - 2011.06.28 12:38:00 - [117]
 

Edited by: Elienore on 28/06/2011 12:39:00
Originally by: Arias Dren
LOVING how the CCP apologists and alts are staying FAR away from this topic right now. Speaks volumes.


I just logged on and whatnot :l

Would indeed be a shame if they went bankrupt (someone already mentioned it wouldn't be a bankruptcy and more akin to draining all blood from a body).

EDIT: In some sort of extreme magic trick, I have failed to notice the 3 other pages... *starts reading better now*.

Leah Solo
Posted - 2011.06.28 12:43:00 - [118]
 

Originally by: Nobile Sheeraan
Guys.
stop giving CCP grief, and invite friends to give it a go.


So you can grief my newb friends ingame too?

ccc..griefers will be griefers

Haven Wind
Posted - 2011.06.28 12:47:00 - [119]
 

CCP do not have to get a loan, they could issue more stock, sell treasury stock, issue preferred stock, break open the piggy bank and dip into retained earnings, etc.

They could issue corporate bonds as a debt instrument instead of a bank loan, or perhaps they have some assets they could sell off. Perhaps licensing Carbon?

There are many ways to raise capital.

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2011.06.28 12:49:00 - [120]
 

That is only 213 trillion isk.


They could easily spawn that money and buy PLEX after PLEX from the market Razz


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