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buck herrick
101st Space Marine Force
Posted - 2011.06.28 01:17:00 - [61]
 

spin from a player that has already publicly un-subbed and posted my concerns / disapointment and rage in other posts?

a brilliant masterstoke i must have pulled.

aside from that, blatant panic posts like this have no place other than to induce panic in the uneducated.

but please feel frrr to keep preaching the end of the world for CCP. matters not to me, i am more interested in facts.

Katra Novac
Posted - 2011.06.28 01:19:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Graic Valente

nervous investors.




More than likely, especially with the bad press and protests.

Jada Maroo
Posted - 2011.06.28 01:20:00 - [63]
 

Their financial situation isn't as bad as it looks, for now. When Dust fails, though, CCP will get really scared. Then, watch out. All options on the table, Eve as you know it will be gone.

Mister Dreyfus
Posted - 2011.06.28 01:20:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: buck herrick
you guys seriously need to understand business finance and administration.

many organisations like CCP carry debt. its usually cheaper than using cash on hand or refinancing and provides flexibility.

however, fear not, CCP like many other organisations will be able to restructure their financial agreements - usually when this happens a company is able to save money not burn it or lose it.

sorry to burst the bubble of doom™.

restructuring their debt is probably already under agreement and right now i beleive their focus is firmly on their subscription revenue projections.




I doubt they are restructuring their debt, but with credit as cheap as it is now they will probably roll it over, possibly borrowing additional funds to meet their cashflow needs. Tbqh, CCP is not doing bad financially. They are a little thin on cashflow at the moment but that's to be expected with 2 new products in development. As long as they roll Dust and WoD out within reasonable timeframes, they'll probably be fine.

buck herrick
101st Space Marine Force
Posted - 2011.06.28 01:21:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Mister Dreyfus
Originally by: buck herrick
you guys seriously need to understand business finance and administration.

many organisations like CCP carry debt. its usually cheaper than using cash on hand or refinancing and provides flexibility.

however, fear not, CCP like many other organisations will be able to restructure their financial agreements - usually when this happens a company is able to save money not burn it or lose it.

sorry to burst the bubble of doom™.

restructuring their debt is probably already under agreement and right now i beleive their focus is firmly on their subscription revenue projections.




I doubt they are restructuring their debt, but with credit as cheap as it is now they will probably roll it over, possibly borrowing additional funds to meet their cashflow needs. Tbqh, CCP is not doing bad financially. They are a little thin on cashflow at the moment but that's to be expected with 2 new products in development. As long as they roll Dust and WoD out within reasonable timeframes, they'll probably be fine.


agreed

Benilopax
Gallente
The Ashen Lion Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.28 01:23:00 - [66]
 

If CCP were in financial trouble would they be planning to release Dust for a small cover charge?

However the high prices for Vanity items could explain it.

Big Bad Guy
Posted - 2011.06.28 01:27:00 - [67]
 

I think there's at least one thing that everyone can agree on - EVE by itself IS PROFITABLE for CCP.
Vanity items or not, they could at least do something for the game that was actually requested years ago. Just for example: EVE still has no official killboard! Feature that been asked billion times. Not saying about numerous problems that exist in the game since dawn of times...
New shop just got people to the boiling point, but it's not the main problem with EVE.

Mister Poopypants
Posted - 2011.06.28 01:33:00 - [68]
 

CCP fail, "because of monocle™"?

gdjghjhgjfh
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.06.28 01:45:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Zombatar
Edited by: Zombatar on 28/06/2011 00:27:57
Edited by: Zombatar on 28/06/2011 00:26:22
Originally by: Indy Rider
Its 800k, not 8 million.

EVE is still profitable, the problem is that WoD and Dust dev costs are going through the roof at the moment.

The problem is, CCP have a loan of 12 million due in October they have to pay, of which they have 11.2. Once they pay that back they have no cash. Thats the problem, not bankruptcy.

It also explains the 18 months of nothing, it was to cut costs. And as to why Incarna was rushed and buggy, get new subs along side MT so they can pay this loan back.


False.

They had $ 11.223.672 cash at 31 Dec 2010.
They spend about $ 8 Mil cash/year.
By October 2011 they have to bring an extra 12 mil out of nowhere to pay the loan.

You do the math.

Originally by: fdfsadgfasdgvasdfasdfasd Uanid
Originally by: Zombatar
They can simply take a new loan, bigger this time, release DUST/WoD and then we are all happy, with extra monocles colours on the market in eve. Or they can fail like a noob.

Anyway, CCP is risking all on DUST/WoD AFAIK, eve would be fine alone, actually pretty damn profitable $ 5-10 mil a year.

If you don't risk u don't win. Well you do but not as much. :P


Why would a bank give a company another loan when they can't pay off their current one?

Would a bank give a loan to someone on the dull?


This happens all time mate. Banks give u cash, so at the end they take double back. And they will give CCP loans, u know why? Because CCP has assets worth $ 20+ Mil, so if they can't pay CCP defaults and the bank takes that and sells it.



11.223.672 at end of 2010 <--yes, i said that in another thread.

but what all of you are missing the the 50 mil earned by eve subs, they could easily pay back a loan by restricting their salaries/company benefits if it came down to that.

As for the 11mil surplus they had last year, you have to consider that is what they have after all the dev and research for the other games.

What I got from the document was not bankruptcy but a stable company.

Noran Ferah
Red Sky Morning
Posted - 2011.06.28 01:46:00 - [70]
 

I love all the incredible moguls of business chiming in here. Ludicrous.


Of course the banks will never refinance a loan, will they? And there is no possible way that the shareholders of CCP would ever perform a cash infusion if necessary, eh? Nevar!

pffft... Explains everything indeed.

Portmanteau
Gallente
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2011.06.28 01:50:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Noran Ferah
I love all the incredible moguls of business chiming in here. Ludicrous.


Of course the banks will never refinance a loan, will they? And there is no possible way that the shareholders of CCP would ever perform a cash infusion if necessary, eh? Nevar!

pffft... Explains everything indeed.


IIRC correctly sm1 spotted that the investors had already been milked quite recently... somewhere in the sister thread in MD

Mr Kidd
Posted - 2011.06.28 01:52:00 - [72]
 

Edited by: Mr Kidd on 28/06/2011 01:53:26
Dear CCP,

Due to recent uncertainty brought to light by your own customer base, I can no longer play your game. The years required to navigate your time sinks before one can do anything really interesting in the game seems like a longer commitment than you have life.

Sincerely,

Mr. Kidd

Joking of course but, it's not far from the truth. Still unsubbed here pending outcome of CSM meeting.

Eleena Wolf
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.06.28 02:06:00 - [73]
 

Edited by: Eleena Wolf on 28/06/2011 02:06:40
Originally by: alexreborn
if CCP goes bankrupt at least some ****ty company like EA or Ubisoft or Blizzard might pick it up.

EA might be a *****, but at least they know how to sell the **** out of their titles. I predict turn around to profitablility in 3 months. Monocoles on every player, and SP for USD!!.




EA bought dark age of camelot (mythic entertainment) when it was competeting and agains everquest. daoc players thought ea would fix daoc because ea wanted to make money, what they didnt realize is that ea made more money by not fixing a damn thing. they milked daoc for all it was worth to fund other ea developed games, while at the same time making their own mmos more profitable by removing a competitor title.

While a competeting game developer buying out another competeting game developer does not happen often, when it does the buying party stands to make more profit by either not fixing the problems of game they just bought out or removing it from scene entirely.

Maman Brigitte
Licentia Ex Vereor
Intergalactic Exports Group
Posted - 2011.06.28 02:16:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Eleena Wolf
Edited by: Eleena Wolf on 28/06/2011 02:06:40
Originally by: alexreborn
if CCP goes bankrupt at least some ****ty company like EA or Ubisoft or Blizzard might pick it up.

EA might be a *****, but at least they know how to sell the **** out of their titles. I predict turn around to profitablility in 3 months. Monocoles on every player, and SP for USD!!.




EA bought dark age of camelot (mythic entertainment) when it was competeting and agains everquest. daoc players thought ea would fix daoc because ea wanted to make money, what they didnt realize is that ea made more money by not fixing a damn thing. they milked daoc for all it was worth to fund other ea developed games, while at the same time making their own mmos more profitable by removing a competitor title.

While a competeting game developer buying out another competeting game developer does not happen often, when it does the buying party stands to make more profit by either not fixing the problems of game they just bought out or removing it from scene entirely.


That's less true now than it was then. Back then, customers leaving DAOC had very few other places to go. Now, the market is saturated. Driving customers away from a title you own is not generally a good idea now, since that is likely to leave them with a bad taste for you specifically, thus actually reducing the chance of them falling into the arms of another of your titles.

Still, the point is well noted.

Dobbs Head
Hot Coffee Mojo
Posted - 2011.06.28 02:17:00 - [75]
 

Edited by: Dobbs Head on 28/06/2011 02:17:06
Originally by: Zombatar
Edited by: Zombatar on 28/06/2011 00:35:17
Edited by: Zombatar on 27/06/2011 23:37:08
Quote:
But again, CCP had $11M in cash Jan 1 2011. They are burning about $8M a year and will have about $4M left by the time their $11.8M dollar loan is due October 28th.


This explains EVERYTHING. Start reading!

(see note 19, pg 31)

New ways to make money in EvE will help when doing negotiation with the banks for a new loan.

Thank you.

Not one of you has a complete picture of CCP finances or their financial options. I would caution you against moving from nerd rage into libel. There are real world consequences for causing damage to a company by spreading false information regarding financial viability.

You can't possibly have the kind of information required to make any sort of public claims about CCP's financial viability. I don't care what "documents" you link. You don't have access to the internal information that you would need to make the kind of proclamation that you are making.

Be careful.

Eleena Wolf
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.06.28 02:29:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Maman Brigitte
Originally by: Eleena Wolf
Edited by: Eleena Wolf on 28/06/2011 02:06:40
Originally by: alexreborn
if CCP goes bankrupt at least some ****ty company like EA or Ubisoft or Blizzard might pick it up.

EA might be a *****, but at least they know how to sell the **** out of their titles. I predict turn around to profitablility in 3 months. Monocoles on every player, and SP for USD!!.




EA bought dark age of camelot (mythic entertainment) when it was competeting and agains everquest. daoc players thought ea would fix daoc because ea wanted to make money, what they didnt realize is that ea made more money by not fixing a damn thing. they milked daoc for all it was worth to fund other ea developed games, while at the same time making their own mmos more profitable by removing a competitor title.

While a competeting game developer buying out another competeting game developer does not happen often, when it does the buying party stands to make more profit by either not fixing the problems of game they just bought out or removing it from scene entirely.


That's less true now than it was then. Back then, customers leaving DAOC had very few other places to go. Now, the market is saturated. Driving customers away from a title you own is not generally a good idea now, since that is likely to leave them with a bad taste for you specifically, thus actually reducing the chance of them falling into the arms of another of your titles.

Still, the point is well noted.


debatable. Ea not only did this DAOC, they continued this sort of thing with warhammer online. However I believe they intended simply to milk as much profit as they could from sub par mmorpgs because it didnt cost them all that much to develop halfassed code and put it on the market. they relied on ads and names, in the case of warhammer online, gamesworkshop Sad

the profit they get from these mmorpg titles is for the most part funneled directly in the areas of the game industry they were already succesful with and are still successful with; shooters, rts, and sports related games. essentially companies like ea already have an established niche, when they need money they go destroy an mmorpg from a dying rival.

Jeff Severasse
Posted - 2011.06.28 03:23:00 - [77]
 

Edited by: Jeff Severasse on 28/06/2011 03:41:57
Edited by: Jeff Severasse on 28/06/2011 03:39:37
If I am reading this statement correctly according to page 31 on October 28th, 2011 a loan of 11.6mil USD (1.35bil ISK) will be due with interest (so let’s use 12mil USD to make math easy). According to the statement of cash flows on page 7, of the same document, the company held almost 12mil USD on hand at the end of fiscal year 2010 with a yearend gain of 7.4mil USD.

This gain was because of Q1 2010 where 9.9mil USD was realized due to a share offering, page 36 under credit risk management (section 25.7). This number is also reflected on the statement of cash flows, again page 7 under net increase in share capital, with the difference of 6.6mil USD being realized in Q3 2010. This raises an alarm in my brain (as crazy as my mind may be) because in the statement of cash flows, CCP increased cash by 7.4mil USD only after the realization of 16.6mil USD implying without the offering of share capital CCP actually decreased cash assets by 9.2mil USD. This implies that without the offerings, CCP would have run out of cash around Q2 2010.

With these numbers, assuming 2011 is similar to 2010, CCP is hemorrhaging approx. 750K USD or 6% of their cash monthly. With these projections it can be estimated that by October 28th, 2011 CCP may in fact only have about 4.5mil USD on hand by the time the loan comes due (12mil – 750K*10). So with my research and knowledge (minor in accounting so my knowledge is limited) I confirm CCP COULD be facing some serious cash flow issues.

Final note of interest, I find it bizarre that CCP paid 23mil USD in CASH on their development and yet they claim only 11mil USD in R&D on their income statement. Makes you wonder what they spent that cash on. (Oh wait, it’s because they are reporting the development as an asset and they are using cash to fund it…herp a derp…see the balance sheet on page 6 and follow the development costs through the statement of cash flows and note section 12 on page 24/25.)


*edit for emphesis on 'could' as my analysis is of course low level and given I have no information on 2011's financial information.

Sloppy Podfarts
Posted - 2011.06.28 03:30:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Arias Dren
LOVING how the CCP apologists and alts are staying FAR away from this topic right now. Speaks volumes.


HOT POTATO

scepternine
Gallente
podsquish
Posted - 2011.06.28 03:33:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Sloppy Podfarts
Originally by: Arias Dren
LOVING how the CCP apologists and alts are staying FAR away from this topic right now. Speaks volumes.


HOT POTATO


Yeah, anyone with a couple of minutes of basic economy studies would avoid this joke of a thread for risk of being irreversibly contaminated by the wagon-loads of stupid.

Maman Brigitte
Licentia Ex Vereor
Intergalactic Exports Group
Posted - 2011.06.28 05:37:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: scepternine
Originally by: Sloppy Podfarts
Originally by: Arias Dren
LOVING how the CCP apologists and alts are staying FAR away from this topic right now. Speaks volumes.


HOT POTATO


Yeah, anyone with a couple of minutes of basic economy studies would avoid this joke of a thread for risk of being irreversibly contaminated by the wagon-loads of stupid.


So from your presence here, we can derive either irony or idiocy, as we choose?

Jita Monitor
Posted - 2011.06.28 05:43:00 - [81]
 

CCP has all the money they will ever need right now. Your attempt to tarnish CCP's good name is petty, at best. You are as PRESUMPTUOUS as your are POOR AND IRISH.

52 MonocIes
52 Monocles
Posted - 2011.06.28 05:46:00 - [82]
 

Thats kinda true, seem from the annual report that they need cash desperately. What are we willing to buy from them to help them out? Check this thread.

Khamelean
Posted - 2011.06.28 05:48:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Zombatar
Edited by: Zombatar on 28/06/2011 00:35:17
Edited by: Zombatar on 27/06/2011 23:37:08
Quote:
But again, CCP had $11M in cash Jan 1 2011. They are burning about $8M a year and will have about $4M left by the time their $11.8M dollar loan is due October 28th.


This explains EVERYTHING. Start reading!

(see note 19, pg 31)

New ways to make money in EvE will help when doing negotiation with the banks for a new loan.

Thank you.


You really think their plan to fix this situation is to sell $60 monocles to 100 people? If CCP was was planing to solve their alleged cash flow troubles with the nex store, then it would look very different that it does now.

As it stand the nex store is far from the cash cow people seem to claim it is.

Anna Maziarczyk
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:00:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Zombatar
Originally by: ACY GTMI
Edited by: ACY GTMI on 27/06/2011 23:37:47
Are you suggesting that is our fault?

Edit: Forgot one of my favorite mottoes. "Never encourage failure."



I blame $ 20+ Mil spent on WoD and Dust... That is the issue. You can't have one game (EvE) pay 700 wages, finance 2 game developments then have money left to re-invest in EvE.

We are basically paying with our EVE sub for WoD and Dust, I could be ok with that, if EvE wouldn't suffer. This is not the case though.

EVE is being milked to the last drop. Why? Because CCP was TOO ambitious. Too much for EvE it seems...


i r agree with the you.

Anna Maziarczyk
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:02:00 - [85]
 

Could you imagine Iceland man ego under the harness of say SOE or Major Corp Director?

Serious. They know the situation they are in, and they know what it means.

I don't know if the financial issues are even real/accurate. But if they are, it may spell doom for EVE as a whole. Not just MT, but no EVE at all.

I really cant see these devs being subservient to oversight from some other corp.

Valei Khurelem
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:02:00 - [86]
 

I'm sorry, but how the **** does a relatively small games company like CCP blow 8 million on running one game and developing two others?

Math does not compute.

Unless of course they've been ****ing it away on parties which is the more likely thing.

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:04:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Khamelean
Originally by: Zombatar
Edited by: Zombatar on 28/06/2011 00:35:17
Edited by: Zombatar on 27/06/2011 23:37:08
Quote:
But again, CCP had $11M in cash Jan 1 2011. They are burning about $8M a year and will have about $4M left by the time their $11.8M dollar loan is due October 28th.


This explains EVERYTHING. Start reading!

(see note 19, pg 31)

New ways to make money in EvE will help when doing negotiation with the banks for a new loan.

Thank you.


You really think their plan to fix this situation is to sell $60 monocles to 100 people? If CCP was was planing to solve their alleged cash flow troubles with the nex store, then it would look very different that it does now.

As it stand the nex store is far from the cash cow people seem to claim it is.


Actually I think that's a large part of peoples concern. The Cash store as it stands now is not a good implementation of the MT model the prices are a joke. But it does put the mechanic in the game which opens up the possibility of the real MT money maker of performance enhancers. things like accelerated skill training character remaps outright SP purchases or faction adjustments. Things that frankly are game changers but are required to really make the MT model work.

I honestly think people would be a bit less concerned if the NEX had come out with some reasonable priced items as it is the existing price structure made people go "huh?" then combine that with the Fearless leak and well....

Monstress
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:10:00 - [88]
 

I would be curious to know if CCP had received any large investments from Sony this year that would not yet have been reported on their financial statements.

Troy LS
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:17:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: fdfsadgfasdgvasdfasdfasd Uanid

Why would a bank give a company another loan when they can't pay off their current one?

Would a bank give a loan to someone on the dull?


Where do you think Icelands financial problems started?

Anna Maziarczyk
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:18:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Valei Khurelem
I'm sorry, but how the **** does a relatively small games company like CCP blow 8 million on running one game and developing two others?

Math does not compute.

Unless of course they've been ****ing it away on parties which is the more likely thing.


$1000 Jeans and Chess Boxing.


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