open All Channels
seplocked EVE General Discussion
blankseplocked CCP needs $ 8 Mil by October, else bankruptcy!
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6

Author Topic

cyclobs
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.28 00:29:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Where are the sources here? Or is it just more baseless speculation?

On the other hand, who would want to hire an Icelandic economist? XD


sources are the CCP financial report

Crispin McTarmac
Posted - 2011.06.28 00:30:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Shadow XII

Trying to take the income from one game to maintain it and make two others? What the **** were they thinking?


Actually, it's more like 3 at least in terms of workload. Incarna is almost like a separate game in itself, and these are also mmos we're talking about so they're much more hefty than most other types of project

Graic Valente
Gallente
Valente Galactic Enterprises
Posted - 2011.06.28 00:30:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: 7Boy Curry
Sony buyout coming by default?

I hate to say it but with that Insta-denial the other day coming out as the only response in this forum firestorm it can't be far from people's minds and CCP are obviously now *blank* scared of a public perception that EVE and CCP will just be more grist for the mill of a mega code chop-shop.

Angry customers, stressed staff lashing out, debt levels rising and I would bet - nervous investors.

Barely a recipe for success I would reckon.

Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
Posted - 2011.06.28 00:32:00 - [34]
 

Relevant quotes:

Quote:
No, just a bunch of people ITT who can't read a financial statement or who are just trolling (hi Maz)

As was said before, the Income Statement isn't where the information is. It's in the balance sheet, cash flow, and, as always, in the notes.

So CCP raised $16.5M in equity over 2010. The shares were issued in 09 and CCP received the money from existing investors over the course of 2010. This is how they improved their cash position.

The loan CCP took out is repayable on October 28, 2011 and is listed as Current maturities of non-current liabilities in the balance sheet with a value of $11.8M (see note 19, pg31). It was interest only until its maturity this October.

CCP lists an operating profit $6.5M but this relies exclusively on the capitalization of in-process R&D. It is the most accurate and appropriate way to treat those expenses, but it can make it difficult for the inexperienced to understand what is going on with the company.

CCP increased its development asset by $23.5M in 2010 and amortized $6.5M of its existing intangible assets. This shows as a net capitalization of $17M. In the cash flow statement you can see that net cash from operations is $17.3M vs cash charges for investment activities (development + other) of $25.9M. Raising net $16M only improved their cash position by $7.4M

TLDR CCP is burning $8M a year in cash. They have to repay $11.8M this October which will wipe out their current cash balances. This leaves a rather large hole which can only be filled through further debt or equity instruments.

CCP is making an accounting profit but is RAPIDLY running out of cash thanks to the cost of WoD and Dust. They are desperate for money and need MT to show investors/banks that their business is improving. They are also carrying a large amount of capitalized development that should really be written off, wiping out the "retained earnings" of the balance sheet.


Add this to the list of things too:

Quote:
Quote:
Hum, looks like they a have a real nice business going, why the hell do they need to burn it to the ground.

Also, they acquired the Unreal license for dust in 2010 (http://www.ccpgames.com/en/public-relat ... t-514.aspx), shouldn't they have depreciated the in-house engine they binned?
Yes, if they have not then it makes their position on the balance sheet a lot better than it really is.


This is all from official documents, so most of it is cold facts supplied by CCP themselves.

Zombatar
Posted - 2011.06.28 00:33:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Where are the sources here? Or is it just more baseless speculation?

On the other hand, who would want to hire an Icelandic economist? XD


Start reading!

(see note 19, pg 31)

Indy Rider
Amarr
Firebird Squadron
Terra-Incognita
Posted - 2011.06.28 00:34:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Zombatar


False.

They had $ 11.223.672 cash at 31 Dec 2010.
They spend about $ 8 Mil cash/year.
By October 2011 they have to bring an extra 12 mil out of nowhere to pay the loan.

You do the math.




Might have to give it a reread... If it is 8 million good luck trying to get that much in that time...

The guys over at the M&D haven't mentioned 8 mill...

Shadow XII
Posted - 2011.06.28 00:36:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Indy Rider
Its 800k, not 8 million.

EVE is still profitable, the problem is that WoD and Dust dev costs are going through the roof at the moment.

The problem is, CCP have a loan of 12 million due in October they have to pay, of which they have 11.2. Once they pay that back they have no cash. Thats the problem, not bankruptcy.

It also explains the 18 months of nothing, it was to cut costs. And as to why Incarna was rushed and buggy, get new subs along side MT so they can pay this loan back.


Still. If they had told us the situation I'm sure we would have understood. Now they're in an even worse position than they were.

Falbala
Gallente
Ishtar's Destiny
Posted - 2011.06.28 00:36:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Falbala on 28/06/2011 00:38:01
They can buy PLEX with isk. 50,000 PLEX out of the market here are your 800k.

Eranicus II
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.28 00:37:00 - [39]
 

DUST is actually a very good idea and it will get CCP some good profits at least for 5-6 months covering all the expanses.

The main problem is that, I dont understand why CCP is bothering and spending money on fantasy MMORPG (World of darkness). Looking at the current market situation and all the future projects from industry giants, CCP has absolutely no chances on fantasy MMORPG market.

And of course EVE suffers because of the present situation...

Josefine Etrange
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.28 00:40:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Eranicus II
DUST is actually a very good idea and it will get CCP some good profits at least for 5-6 months covering all the expanses.

The main problem is that, I dont understand why CCP is bothering and spending money on fantasy MMORPG (World of darkness). Looking at the current market situation and all the future projects from industry giants, CCP has absolutely no chances on fantasy MMORPG market.

And of course EVE suffers because of the present situation...


WoD is a strong RPG brand, whitewolf was cheap I guess, a lot of fans waiting to play WoD and their concept seems to be different from other mmorpgs. Plus they can use parts of the engine from dust and for eve. Still they are going to fast imo.

Uuali
Posted - 2011.06.28 00:44:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Eranicus II
DUST is actually a very good idea and it will get CCP some good profits at least for 5-6 months covering all the expanses.

The main problem is that, I dont understand why CCP is bothering and spending money on fantasy MMORPG (World of darkness). Looking at the current market situation and all the future projects from industry giants, CCP has absolutely no chances on fantasy MMORPG market.

And of course EVE suffers because of the present situation...



I dunno. I'll bet the Twilighters would eat WoD if CCP markets it the right way. Of course they haven't really marketed EVE the right way. If they're wondering why they don't have enough subscribers one problem would be that they don't pump the advertising through enough channels. There's a number of times that I've thought how CCP could better advertise EVE. The bookstores, movie ads, action figures, music/ipod downloads free with ipod purchase etc etc.

And best of all, not just a boxed version of the game like they have now but every two years release all the good stuff as a paid expansion with all the hoopla at the game shops that go with it! I'd pay $30 every two years for big stuff rather than have to pop $60 for every little item along the way.

Mister Dreyfus
Posted - 2011.06.28 00:46:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Mister Dreyfus on 28/06/2011 00:47:49
This financial report isn't as bad as it seems. 12m loan on 57 million/yr in revenue isn't that much. They can probably roll over a good chunk of the debt if not the entire thing. I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.28 00:47:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Zombatar
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Where are the sources here? Or is it just more baseless speculation?

On the other hand, who would want to hire an Icelandic economist? XD


Start reading!

(see note 19, pg 31)


Headscratch. This is where my skills really are limited (economy analysis). But how do these figures affect 2011? Surely they have new income? v0v

nubile slave
Posted - 2011.06.28 00:48:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Eranicus II
DUST is actually a very good idea and it will get CCP some good profits at least for 5-6 months covering all the expanses.

The main problem is that, I dont understand why CCP is bothering and spending money on fantasy MMORPG (World of darkness). Looking at the current market situation and all the future projects from industry giants, CCP has absolutely no chances on fantasy MMORPG market.

And of course EVE suffers because of the present situation...


How is Dust going to show a profit in the first 5-6 months? It's a free game, it will have it's own distributed server farms to pay for.
It's dependent on CCP selling a LOT of stuff, or selling it at an extremely high price....hmm, lol $49.95 for a gun?

Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
Posted - 2011.06.28 00:49:00 - [45]
 

They can get another loan if they run out of cash reserves, by showing off projections on future properties and games. Increasing the revenue on EVE would lead to them to showing off even better projections on their future projects.

Its not a dire situation, you are p1ssy little ****s and you want it to be dire situation.

Josh Bolder
Posted - 2011.06.28 00:49:00 - [46]
 

I am a producer and very often sort out money for new films and completion. I have not seen this supposed finance document, but you all seem to be speculating on a cash flow forecast. Which may have many varying aspects, not to forget that the engines and code itself will be sold to other markets e.g. the quake engine or the Unreal Engine and many more. Also the company most likely have A class Shares and B class Shares for investors in each project, with each project also being supported by other projects and products. Plus the projects will also have completion bonds. The loan itself we already have a refinancing option built in.

In other words none of you know what the F your talking about so for gods sake move on and concentrate on other issues.

RougeOperator
Posted - 2011.06.28 00:56:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Arias Dren
LOVING how the CCP apologists and alts are staying FAR away from this topic right now. Speaks volumes.


Sycophants will abandon ship when they perceive there is no gain from sucking up.

Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
Posted - 2011.06.28 00:57:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: RougeOperator
Originally by: Arias Dren
LOVING how the CCP apologists and alts are staying FAR away from this topic right now. Speaks volumes.


Sycophants will abandon ship when they perceive there is no gain from sucking up.


I posted, and everyone tells me I'M an alt.

Eranicus II
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.28 00:59:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Josefine Etrange
Originally by: Eranicus II
DUST is actually a very good idea and it will get CCP some good profits at least for 5-6 months covering all the expanses.

The main problem is that, I dont understand why CCP is bothering and spending money on fantasy MMORPG (World of darkness). Looking at the current market situation and all the future projects from industry giants, CCP has absolutely no chances on fantasy MMORPG market.

And of course EVE suffers because of the present situation...


WoD is a strong RPG brand, whitewolf was cheap I guess, a lot of fans waiting to play WoD and their concept seems to be different from other mmorpgs. Plus they can use parts of the engine from dust and for eve. Still they are going to fast imo.



You might be right but if we look back for example on AOC (Age of Conan) which also had some very strong story line, lots of fans and one of the best graphics engine (by the time of release) it was a fail in the end... Warhammer online is another example.

There is one phrase in my country "If you will run after 2 rabbits, in the end you will catch none" My point is that CCP need to more focus on EVE

Tavin Aikisen
Caldari
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
Posted - 2011.06.28 01:00:00 - [50]
 

Hey look, I bet I can fix this in less than 5 minutes!

Release DUST on XBox and PC as well as PS. Postpone WoD development until after DUST is released. Bring out way more vanity items and lower the prices across the board.

Thank me later CCP.

Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
Posted - 2011.06.28 01:02:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Patient 2428190 on 28/06/2011 01:02:02
Originally by: Arias Dren
LOVING how the CCP apologists and alts are staying FAR away from this topic right now. Speaks volumes.


You are all idiots without the slightest clue of how a business works. Remember the rage and panic caused by the SoE buyout rumors (which clicking on the link for the "source" it just linked back itself)

I've realized why CCP doesn't listen to the forums. You all don't have a ****ing clue.

Portmanteau
Gallente
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2011.06.28 01:02:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Eranicus II
DUST is actually a very good idea and it will get CCP some good profits at least for 5-6 months covering all the expanses.

The main problem is that, I dont understand why CCP is bothering and spending money on fantasy MMORPG (World of darkness). Looking at the current market situation and all the future projects from industry giants, CCP has absolutely no chances on fantasy MMORPG market.

And of course EVE suffers because of the present situation...



lol... since when is covering developments costs considered profit

Zakua Corbin
Posted - 2011.06.28 01:03:00 - [53]
 

They must be somewhere past 100 monocles now...hell they are probably printing out profit share checks as we speak!

I think they'll be fine. 8 mil on a buisness like this should roll.

Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
Posted - 2011.06.28 01:04:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Tavin Aikisen
Hey look, I bet I can fix this in less than 5 minutes!

Release DUST on XBox and PC as well as PS. Postpone WoD development until after DUST is released. Bring out way more vanity items and lower the prices across the board.

Thank me later CCP.


Microsoft won't allow Dust to communicate with EvE, which is why CCP and Microsoft couldn't come to an agreement (solo dust is not what CCP was after).

And with a PS3 exclusive, why not let Sony pay for development costs and hold off on a PC release, thus allowing proper resources to be dedicated to the game?

Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
Posted - 2011.06.28 01:05:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Tavin Aikisen
Hey look, I bet I can fix this in less than 5 minutes!

Release DUST on XBox and PC as well as PS.


You can't release Dust for Xbox, Microsoft would not let them do it. Its not an option

You can't release an FPS on a console and a PC at the same time and have players fighting on the same servers. The debate of mouse/controller and PC cheaters would absolutely ruin it.


Portmanteau
Gallente
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2011.06.28 01:05:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Josh Bolder
I am a producer and very often sort out money for new films and completion. I have not seen this supposed finance document, but you all seem to be speculating on a cash flow forecast. Which may have many varying aspects, not to forget that the engines and code itself will be sold to other markets e.g. the quake engine or the Unreal Engine and many more. Also the company most likely have A class Shares and B class Shares for investors in each project, with each project also being supported by other projects and products. Plus the projects will also have completion bonds. The loan itself we already have a refinancing option built in.

In other words none of you know what the F your talking about so for gods sake move on and concentrate on other issues.



you mean Carbon ? The dodgy pile of crud that gets ****ty FPS and overheats GPUs.. who's going to buy that ?

Opertone
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.28 01:06:00 - [57]
 

I suggest that monocle sees through clothes!

and AUR buys erotic show in go go minmatar bars.

Black Dranzer
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.28 01:06:00 - [58]
 

I'm not an economist and I don't understand finance at all, so my opinions are completely uneducated, but I find it hard to believe that it's as bad as some people are saying.

buck herrick
101st Space Marine Force
Posted - 2011.06.28 01:11:00 - [59]
 

you guys seriously need to understand business finance and administration.

many organisations like CCP carry debt. its usually cheaper than using cash on hand or refinancing and provides flexibility.

however, fear not, CCP like many other organisations will be able to restructure their financial agreements - usually when this happens a company is able to save money not burn it or lose it.

sorry to burst the bubble of doom™.

restructuring their debt is probably already under agreement and right now i beleive their focus is firmly on their subscription revenue projections.


RougeOperator
Posted - 2011.06.28 01:13:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: buck herrick
you guys seriously need to understand business finance and administration.

many organisations like CCP carry debt. its usually cheaper than using cash on hand or refinancing and provides flexibility.

however, fear not, CCP like many other organisations will be able to restructure their financial agreements - usually when this happens a company is able to save money not burn it or lose it.

sorry to burst the bubble of doom™.

restructuring their debt is probably already under agreement and right now i beleive their focus is firmly on their subscription revenue projections.




Yeah the spin factory by a guy with a quafe shirt is spinning up.


Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only