open All Channels
seplocked EVE General Discussion
blankseplocked CCP's financial situation (annual report inside)
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: first : previous : ... 3 4 5 6 [7] 8 9 10 11 ... : last (14)

Author Topic

Zverkice
Posted - 2011.06.27 23:07:00 - [181]
 

Originally by: Obviously Confidential
It is insane to develop three games at the same time.

WoD and DUST are two risky projects with highly dubious commercial prospects and that require large amounts of investment.

Coming from the same company that has recently failed at simple internet forums and keeps on neglecting its main revenue generator, that is being used as a milking cow / golden goose instead of being perceived as a real opportunity for growth. Their best source of organic and sustainable growth is being gambled for some risky crap that I think will end up as not one, but two commercial disasters - if ever released.

Instead of growing with their feet on the ground from a small and solid base, CCP decided to shoot for the moon and chase after the :bigbux: markets.

Let's hope all is not lost in this folly. The real opportunity is EVE! Stop being blinded by greedy megalomania.

The CEO should really stop attending business gaming conventions and just play more EVE.



THIS

Tel'Kar'Tir
Posted - 2011.06.27 23:07:00 - [182]
 

Cut WoD, cut the least profitable item. Dust is within a year of release. WoD is at least 2 or 3 ears off. If it's less than 50% done cut it to save expenses.

Vincentus
Posted - 2011.06.27 23:09:00 - [183]
 

Originally by: Mindseamstress


It's normal to be cash flow negative when you develop software. The 8m they burn a year can also be axed at any time since they just have to downsize. What investors look at is growth and value creation. Creditors will to a great degree do the same but may collateralise their lending with co assets or shares. Eve is worth a fair bit (maybe $300-500m) so 8m is no big deal in the grand scheme of things.




That you have negative cashflow for a certain product: yes. That if you are a small company with only 1 product: yes. If you have a successfull business that brings in 55M in cash each year: not so much. They have burned through all of their liquid assets they had build up over the years, they have called in 16M from investors to pay their bills, they had 11M in the bank in December 2010 but need to pay back a loan in October 2011 of a little over that amount, and they are still losing at least 8M a year. Sure, if WoD and Dust are a big success and (just as important) CCP can release them in time, then no worries. The thing is, that's a pretty big gamble to make, and investors know it. At this moment CCP has no assets (when you deduct liabilities and don't count development costs of WoD and Dust as assets, since these are only assets if they are a success), big bills and a huge loan coming due. I don't know about you, but I would be a little worried if that was my financial situation.

uncloned
Posted - 2011.06.27 23:11:00 - [184]
 

they could do some "buy plex for helping ccp first to make eve a big "pay to win"

of course, it will not provide them enougnt money, but i hope they will find another solution than partially destroying eve for helping their other game devellopement..

Govinda Sertan
Posted - 2011.06.27 23:12:00 - [185]
 

That report explain everything...

MT is only one of the main issue.
The second one is the fact they dont care about their game anymore (because of some really stupids placements).

CCP is actually focus on 2 things :

1. WoD and DUST developpement.
2. Milking Eve gamers till they are dry, because the above point is requesting more money.

So yes. Eve is basically a farm now. And we are the cows.

Consider that all the money that gamers are putting in Eve since 2 years, is only used for developping other games and implementing AUR-based economy.

That's the reason i am mad. The game actually needs lots of attention due to tons of bugs, lag, and lacks of upgrades. And it wont get it any time soon, considering CCP dont care anymore.

Terminal Insanity
Minmatar
Convex Enterprises
Posted - 2011.06.27 23:12:00 - [186]
 

Originally by: Yarrrrrhh
Another very personal note: Thanks to the EVE sandbox for teaching me how to do stuff like this. Learned how to run a corporation in EVE, done the same IRL after that, now I get a shot at helping save CCP's own ass.


i lol'd.

No seriously, you learned how to run a corporation.... in eve online? Seriously? And you took the knowledge from running eve corps and applied it to real life? I hope this is a troll, because lol.

also:
Originally by: Terminal Insanity
Should random videogamers be dishing out financial suggestions to a company that has managed to stay in business from the same product for over 7 years? Probably not.

The last thing CCP needs is a bunch of spoiled brats telling them how to run their company. They've been successful so far. If you don't think they have, then what the **** are you still doing here?


Vincentus
Posted - 2011.06.27 23:12:00 - [187]
 

Originally by: Asmodeus Et'Mort
So one question to all you accounting boffins out there, Isnt plex a liability to the company that should be included in these figures? Havent CCP already been paid RL cash thats been accounted for in these figures but have yet to provide the service? So Im just asking if the value of plex in the game counts as an official accounting liability?

Does that make it better or worse? sorry im an historian i have no concept of figures other than dates!


Plexes are counted as deferred income, no liability whatsoever (unless everyone would at the same time unsub and only pay with plexes from then on, but that could only last a month or so anyway :) )

Takseen
Posted - 2011.06.27 23:14:00 - [188]
 

I remember we were taught back in accounting classes that having greater current liabilities compared to your current assets was a very bad sign. CCP have $19.6m in current assets, and $25.3m in current liabilities. Not good.
Not to mention the fact that a whopping $54m of their $63m non-current assets are made of up development costs.

Mindseamstress
Gallente
Jovian Labs
Jovian Enterprises
Posted - 2011.06.27 23:17:00 - [189]
 

Originally by: Vincentus
Originally by: Mindseamstress


It's normal to be cash flow negative when you develop software. The 8m they burn a year can also be axed at any time since they just have to downsize. What investors look at is growth and value creation. Creditors will to a great degree do the same but may collateralise their lending with co assets or shares. Eve is worth a fair bit (maybe $300-500m) so 8m is no big deal in the grand scheme of things.





That you have negative cashflow for a certain product: yes. That if you are a small company with only 1 product: yes. If you have a successfull business that brings in 55M in cash each year: not so much. They have burned through all of their liquid assets they had build up over the years, they have called in 16M from investors to pay their bills, they had 11M in the bank in December 2010 but need to pay back a loan in October 2011 of a little over that amount, and they are still losing at least 8M a year. Sure, if WoD and Dust are a big success and (just as important) CCP can release them in time, then no worries. The thing is, that's a pretty big gamble to make, and investors know it. At this moment CCP has no assets (when you deduct liabilities and don't count development costs of WoD and Dust as assets, since these are only assets if they are a success), big bills and a huge loan coming due. I don't know about you, but I would be a little worried if that was my financial situation.



I would as a shareholder as this could dilute my equity substantially. However Eve is an annuity that is worth a fair bit, so if they want to raise equity capital, they can probably do a private placement without too much trouble. Remember the player base is sticky (presumably)


diaufop
Posted - 2011.06.27 23:22:00 - [190]
 

Edited by: diaufop on 27/06/2011 23:23:34
Edited by: diaufop on 27/06/2011 23:22:18
Originally by: Markus Jome
Edited by: Markus Jome on 27/06/2011 23:09:16
I don't see the connection between the Vanity Store and CCPs financial situation. It's easy to say "they sell monocles because they need money", but noone in CCP could think that they could sell even remotely enough monocles to solve their financial problems (8 mio loss per year -> 100k+ monocles per year). In other numbers: everyone of the 300k plus subscribers would have to buy stoff worth more than 25 dollar per year.

$70 monocles doesn't pay off the big bill in October. $70 monocles - plus rising subscription numbers due to an "awesome" expansion - gives CCP a pretty graph they can show to investors about how much money they stand to make in the future from their cash shop, especially once said pretty graphs start applying to Dust - only 1 year away from launching - and WoD.

Winning over investors is far more important than your cash balance in the bank for companies, by and large. And winning over investors is 90% BS and pretty graphs.

Kerrisone
Posted - 2011.06.27 23:25:00 - [191]
 

Originally by: Tel'Kar'Tir
Cut WoD, cut the least profitable item. Dust is within a year of release. WoD is at least 2 or 3 ears off. If it's less than 50% done cut it to save expenses.


I think WOD has the greater chance of being a hit than Dust does and 'living/growing' longer/larger than Dust. Canceling either is a 'no win' IMO, Dust is close to release and a waste to gut now, can't really sell it as it ties into EVE. WOD is farther off BUT has the better chance of surpassing EVE as a money maker.

Portmanteau
Gallente
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2011.06.27 23:26:00 - [192]
 

Originally by: Tahnil
This community puzzles me. Shocked

You're falling for a mud campaign of some disgruntled employees and bitter veterans, who use the first suitable moment for an all-out attack against CCP. On top the amateur media like failheap and evenews24 publish every piece of stupidity and half-truth, just for their 15 minutes of fame. And everybody seems to tune in by trying to find the next sensational interpretation or half truth.

As of this moment, you're destroying the very foundations of this community in some kind of lust for doom. This is malicious gossip, even if some bits of truth can be found in this discussion.

This is insane. Confused


hmm

fearless magazine leak - confirmed by CCP

Hilmar email - confirmed by CCP

CCP annual financial report - matter of public record ... no confirmation needed

yes it's all BS and we are just soooo gullible

Tom Peeping
Posted - 2011.06.27 23:27:00 - [193]
 

So... the real issue behind microtransactions, is poor decision making by CCP higherups who are determined to develop too much, without having to go through the usual funding routes.... they want EVE players to pay for it.

Indy Rider
Amarr
Firebird Squadron
Terra-Incognita
Posted - 2011.06.27 23:30:00 - [194]
 

Now I understand why there was 18 months of nothing.

They only have one choice if they want to avoid not being able to pay the $12 million loan back, force out Incarna which as pretty new features to hope for new subs, even if it is bugged to hell which has a MT along side it.

Theres nothing to do with "changing the gaming world". They need money, and fast, otherwise they wont have any cash in October.

Vincentus
Posted - 2011.06.27 23:31:00 - [195]
 

Originally by: Mindseamstress
Originally by: Vincentus
Originally by: Mindseamstress


It's normal to be cash flow negative when you develop software. The 8m they burn a year can also be axed at any time since they just have to downsize. What investors look at is growth and value creation. Creditors will to a great degree do the same but may collateralise their lending with co assets or shares. Eve is worth a fair bit (maybe $300-500m) so 8m is no big deal in the grand scheme of things.





That you have negative cashflow for a certain product: yes. That if you are a small company with only 1 product: yes. If you have a successfull business that brings in 55M in cash each year: not so much. They have burned through all of their liquid assets they had build up over the years, they have called in 16M from investors to pay their bills, they had 11M in the bank in December 2010 but need to pay back a loan in October 2011 of a little over that amount, and they are still losing at least 8M a year. Sure, if WoD and Dust are a big success and (just as important) CCP can release them in time, then no worries. The thing is, that's a pretty big gamble to make, and investors know it. At this moment CCP has no assets (when you deduct liabilities and don't count development costs of WoD and Dust as assets, since these are only assets if they are a success), big bills and a huge loan coming due. I don't know about you, but I would be a little worried if that was my financial situation.



I would as a shareholder as this could dilute my equity substantially. However Eve is an annuity that is worth a fair bit, so if they want to raise equity capital, they can probably do a private placement without too much trouble. Remember the player base is sticky (presumably)




I agree that Eve is certainly worth a fair bit, I'd say around 100-150M if valued separately (10x-15x separate annual profits of guestimate 10M in a good financial climate, which we don't have atm, but let's leave that aside for now) and if CCP had no liabilities etc. whatsoever there would certainly be people willing to pay for it, but the thing is that CCP and it's other operations look pretty bad atm., so I would want a big discount as an investor. And since the current shares are already bookvalued at about 50M (equity), which will all go up in air if WoD and Dust fail, I wouldn't be willing to pour a whole lot more into it just like that. I'm not saying CCP is dead, but Hilmar has a lot to worry about...

Portmanteau
Gallente
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2011.06.27 23:32:00 - [196]
 

Originally by: Asmodeus Et'Mort
So one question to all you accounting boffins out there, Isnt plex a liability to the company that should be included in these figures? Havent CCP already been paid RL cash thats been accounted for in these figures but have yet to provide the service? So Im just asking if the value of plex in the game counts as an official accounting liability?

Does that make it better or worse? sorry im an historian i have no concept of figures other than dates!
I was wondering that altho I think we can safely say they aren't going to be liable for all that gametime at once.

Linar Mardolak
Minmatar
Phlogiston Absorption
Posted - 2011.06.27 23:32:00 - [197]
 

Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny
And to think of how they could have had help digging themselves out of the hole they dug by just coming forward about it


Exactly. By hiding it and lying to the players, they burned their bridge to solvency while standing on it.

Doav Inarvo
Posted - 2011.06.27 23:33:00 - [198]
 

Originally by: Terminal Insanity
I just bought a 70 dollar monocle, so their new features definatly seem to be selling ^_^

now what to do with my leftover 2k aur...


I think CCP have actualy sold more monacles through people just wanting to troll the forums than through vanity.

If there hadnt been such an upoar I don;t think anyone would have brought one, now owning a monocle is the equivalent of sticking 2 fingers up to the EVE community.

Juliette DuBois
Posted - 2011.06.27 23:35:00 - [199]
 

Edited by: Juliette DuBois on 27/06/2011 23:38:15
PLEX acts as gold for EVE economy. It will be hoarded for as long as investors think it will keep its value better than isk (which it will). Of course, if there was an expiration date on it then it would get redeemed asap but I doubt CCP would like that result.

About vanity items, might surprise you but often the most desired result you want from aquiring such items or other abilities is to annoy other people. Like emotes of showing middle finger or mooning or whatever rude gesture or sound you can come up with.

diaufop
Posted - 2011.06.27 23:36:00 - [200]
 

Originally by: Doav Inarvo

I think CCP have actualy sold more monacles through people just wanting to troll the forums than through vanity.

If there hadnt been such an upoar I don;t think anyone would have brought one, now owning a monocle is the equivalent of sticking 2 fingers up to the EVE community.

I said exactly the same thing after Hilmar's e-mail was leaked. Of those 52 monocles, 1 was bought by CCP Zinfandel, and 51 were bought by trolls.

Bklyn 1
Posted - 2011.06.27 23:39:00 - [201]
 

If CCP had been honest from the get-go and answered the big yellow question 'no', I'd have bought 3 monocles just to help them. Instead, I'm unsubbed.

diaufop
Posted - 2011.06.27 23:40:00 - [202]
 

Originally by: Bklyn 1
If CCP had been honest from the get-go and answered the big yellow question 'no'

Small correction: If CCP were being honest, the answer to the big yellow question would be "yes".

Jolteon Taylor
Posted - 2011.06.27 23:40:00 - [203]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux
Why is the report in English, and why does it use US dollars?



Most of the worlds banking reports use USD, same for English, also CCP themselves have stated all their internals are done using English too, not Icelandic.

mechtech
SRS Industries
SRS.
Posted - 2011.06.27 23:40:00 - [204]
 

So CCP must have banked on a linear increase of subscribers (as the first 5 years of the game yielded). Unfortunately, that won't happen with underwhelming expansions like Incarna, Dominion, and Tyrannis. Look at Apocrypha, that's the awesomeness that can happen when CCP really puts all of their effort in an expansion. Then WoD and Dust dev really started and the expansions got worse.

Now Eve has to take yet another hit (MT) to support 2 side projects. Great.

Seriously, if CCP needs money, the player investment group idea is something I'd be up for. I'd invest 2k USD in CCP, and I actually think it would be a good investment.

Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
Posted - 2011.06.27 23:41:00 - [205]
 

Edited by: Miilla on 27/06/2011 23:41:52



October 28th is going to be an interesting date. :)




Do we make this a threadnaught and dump the other?



I will just leave some links here

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1106/CCPRoyalsLaugh.jpg
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1106/StarWarsHelloKittyDarthVaderVanityItemsAlterPlan.jpg
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1106/CCPMMOofTheYearAward.jpg
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1106/EveFarmville.jpg
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1106/IncarnaWarping.jpg
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1106/CCPGag.jpg
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1106/CCPHilmarStayTheCourse.jpg
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1106/CCPPublicRelations.jpg


Takseen
Posted - 2011.06.27 23:41:00 - [206]
 

Its too late for them to cancel Dust 514 now that they've made that deal with Sony. And if they drop development of WoD they'd have to write off whatever part of that $54m development asset as an expense, basically breaking their balance sheet. The latter doesn't even have a release date yet, and I can't imagine how much longer they'll be able to siphon cash from Eve Online to pay for it.

Portmanteau
Gallente
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2011.06.27 23:41:00 - [207]
 

Originally by: Doav Inarvo
Originally by: Terminal Insanity
I just bought a 70 dollar monocle, so their new features definatly seem to be selling ^_^

now what to do with my leftover 2k aur...


I think CCP have actualy sold more monacles through people just wanting to troll the forums than through vanity.

If there hadnt been such an upoar I don;t think anyone would have brought one, now owning a monocle is the equivalent of sticking 2 fingers up to the EVE community.


while true, it's not very sustainable and doesn't bode well for future monocle sales does it, that and the fact that they are kind of "tarnished" with this whole debacle now

Katrina Cortez
Posted - 2011.06.27 23:42:00 - [208]
 

File mirror link broken.

Senlia Hucel-Ge
Posted - 2011.06.27 23:43:00 - [209]
 

Such a shame that they cannot restructure their debts like anybody else, especially since they have a solid plus when they finish their new products.


/facepalm

Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
Posted - 2011.06.27 23:44:00 - [210]
 



So, basically, CCP is a JUNK BOND :)



Pages: first : previous : ... 3 4 5 6 [7] 8 9 10 11 ... : last (14)

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only