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Maman Brigitte
Licentia Ex Vereor
Intergalactic Exports Group
Posted - 2011.06.27 21:59:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: SciWolf

JUST RAISE THE SUB. THAT IS ALL. OR A DONATE BUTTON FFS.


For real.

This is why communication is good. Tell your loyal fans that you're in trouble and they'll help you. Show your loyal fans that you're willing to screw them over a barrel for a dime, and they suddenly could care less.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.27 21:59:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Obviously Confidential

The CEO should really stop attending business gaming conventions and just play more EVE.


Lot of wisdom in that

Benri Konpaku
Posted - 2011.06.27 22:00:00 - [123]
 

Originally by: Biomassed everyoneelse
This is strange

Makes me wonder.


Well, Iceland companies don't have the best record when it comes to finances, so I wouldn't rule it out. ugh

Nuramori
Amarr
Drama Llamas
Posted - 2011.06.27 22:00:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: Fire Watch
Originally by: i5L4NDOF5T4BiLiTY
I just get the feeling, this game and this company is already over.


Drop WoD and they should be fine.


Fixed it for you. Smile

I agree. Too much, not isolated from main company as a separate entity, etc. Dust would be fine as an MT game, just like it's competition. Larger potential market, and a large established sister audience from eve.

Funny thing is, if the CSM was less of a popularity contest and viewed as more of a brain trust resource, better input could have been given. This of course assumes that CCP would also be more forthright about the entire picture and not myopic with the disseminated information. The demographics of the eve user base is an older crowd; the older crowd likes more comprehensive approaches to fees than the nickel and diming perspective that comes with MT. While other games with a younger crowd would tolerate MT, the one that supports eve now is more in tune with the all inclusive fee approach. Just raise the rate, perhaps give the vanity items to appeal to the peacocks and younger crowd, but maintain the perception of not messing with what has been established as a player affected sandbox. Player inertia after 8+ years is not something you can easily fight.

Randaltor
Posted - 2011.06.27 22:01:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Benri Konpaku
I'm really disappointed at CCP for misunderstanding PLEX income as an extra income.


For the most part you are right.. however I think, if there's a difference between the cost of a plex vs cost of subscription, then they make a slight profit.

Also it's possible that PLEX never get used.. in which case , it can be claimed as profit. For example, remember that 75 plexes that got destroyed in Jita. that's purre profit ! :)

Toawa
EVE Mercantile Exchange
Virtue of Selfishness
Posted - 2011.06.27 22:02:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: The Pteradactyl
A lot of retail businesses sell gift cards. They do this because on average (I work in this industry) just over 5% of all gift card purchases never get redeemed. You get money immediately (for reinvestment etc) and 5% of those cards never come back for product. PLEX is similar. If the PLEX is sitting in someones hangar and that person leaves suddenly for whatever IRL reason. The PLEX just sits there and EVE already has the profit.


Of course, I can only speak for the US, but in many states unclaimed gift card money has to be turned over to the state after five years or so (it varies), which then holds it in case it is claimed. Of course, many stores would put a monthly fee on the card balance to avoid that, except now there are states which have forbidden the practice.

mrbreakit
Caldari
Universal Module Acquisition Department
Posted - 2011.06.27 22:03:00 - [127]
 

Edited by: mrbreakit on 27/06/2011 22:05:14


I'm talking about the card game. WoD being my favorite setting, I have a feeling the Vampire MMO will be good, but niche as eve. Referring to it as "Twilight Online" shows you've never even so much as flipped through the original source book. But I digress, the point is, CCP cancelled something that was literally direct cash flow injection. Also They quietly moved nexet years North American Championship for VtES down to New Orleans to try to shoe horn in the VTES crowd to their giant "Masquerade" even they have for the LARPers and such. CCP doesn't like to communicate with it's player bases period D:

Portmanteau
Gallente
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2011.06.27 22:06:00 - [128]
 

Originally by: Nizran L'Crit
Originally by: Portmanteau
Originally by: Maul555
Edited by: Maul555 on 27/06/2011 20:37:41
If your listening CCP, just be honest with us. We love eve! I have been plexing recently but would be willing to re-sub if you guys really need it! I would even buy some stupid pants if you price it reasonably...



plexing or subbing makes no difference whatsoever to CCP' revenue


Actually, PLEXing is a big issue. A lot of people buy Plexes and then hold onto them instead of liquidating them in-game to be able to pay subs for the unforseeable future without actually having to pay money. This is a problem because that profit from plexes is realized on the books for that month, then they spend it as either "extra" money or as part of a sub amount, however, when it comes time for that person/people to redeem those plexes, they end up having to take the hit that month or year because it was already pre-paid. If they have a lot of these, they end up having far less income in the months they have to honor the plexes as opposed to when they received the funds for the plexes. Monthly subs are fairly straightforward, plexes can, if enough are redeemed at once, cause a huge hole where they aren't receiving any monthly income from that person/players.



yes ... all very true and absolutely sod all to do with my statement Wink

(hint, i was rebutting the assertion that paying with subs instead of grinding for plexes would increase CCP's revenue)

The Pteradactyl
Posted - 2011.06.27 22:07:00 - [129]
 

Edited by: The Pteradactyl on 27/06/2011 22:10:00
Originally by: Toawa
Originally by: The Pteradactyl
A lot of retail businesses sell gift cards. They do this because on average (I work in this industry) just over 5% of all gift card purchases never get redeemed. You get money immediately (for reinvestment etc) and 5% of those cards never come back for product. PLEX is similar. If the PLEX is sitting in someones hangar and that person leaves suddenly for whatever IRL reason. The PLEX just sits there and EVE already has the profit.


Of course, I can only speak for the US, but in many states unclaimed gift card money has to be turned over to the state after five years or so (it varies), which then holds it in case it is claimed. Of course, many stores would put a monthly fee on the card balance to avoid that, except now there are states which have forbidden the practice.


Are you referring to debit type cards? What you are saying is true of anything with a Visa/Mastercard/Other company logo on it. The card you bought at the GAP, or the PLEX you bought from CCP does not provide such features.

Plus since there is no two-way transfer of PLEX (IE PLEX for real money) they don't need to reserve that cash for anything. If they did offer PLEX for real money transfer it would create a whole myriad of sticky situations especially taxes. It would be like chips at a casino, the government would come calling and people would accrue PLEX to sell for real money as a profession (making RMT easier and more legal). Not the intended idea.

Anderling
Posted - 2011.06.27 22:10:00 - [130]
 

I wonder if Greece owes Icland Banks alot of Money! ...

But if i understand this correctly ...28th October CCP will be insolvent!!

So this may be the last year of EvE.... I better not buy to much Plex ...or i could sit with a worthless item at the end of the year!

Holy One
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2011.06.27 22:11:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: Maul555
I do not want to put CCP between a rock and a hard place just for our own wants. I just want them to start acting right again. All else will follow...


Hoo ****ing ra!

Icecold Spacebeer
Posted - 2011.06.27 22:11:00 - [132]
 

Originally by: SciWolf

JUST RAISE THE SUB. THAT IS ALL. OR A DONATE BUTTON FFS.


Noooo, they dont get away with this so quickly. I like the idea of an investment group and wont have a problem investing a few $.

Im pretty sure the EVE playerbase could easily afford to save the company or even buy a big part of it. But it would include some serious ass kicking in CCPs senior management meeting room, the one or other manager looking for a new job and a "communications 101" crash course for Hilmar, Zulu and the whole bunch.

Ibram Sedingway
Posted - 2011.06.27 22:12:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: Obviously Confidential
It is insane to develop three games at the same time.

WoD and DUST are two risky projects with highly dubious commercial prospects and that require large amounts of investment.

Coming from the same company that has recently failed at simple internet forums and keeps on neglecting its main revenue generator, that is being used as a milking cow / golden goose instead of being perceived as a real opportunity for growth. Their best source of organic and sustainable growth is being gambled for some risky crap that I think will end up as not one, but two commercial disasters - if ever released.

Instead of growing with their feet on the ground from a small and solid base, CCP decided to shoot for the moon and chase after the :bigbux: markets.

Let's hope all is not lost in this folly. The real opportunity is EVE! Stop being blinded by greedy megalomania.

The CEO should really stop attending business gaming conventions and just play more EVE.




QFT QFT

Its insane for CCP to think that DUST is going to be good. They picked the PS3, first round of fail right there. They picked First Person Shooter Genere. Second round of fail right there; good luck competing with Battlefield 3 in a few months from now.
3rd round of failure; if Incarna is any indication of what CCP can do with graphics, then they have another thing coming to them when DUST goes live.

Kirkland Langue
Posted - 2011.06.27 22:14:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Obviously Confidential

The CEO should really stop attending business gaming conventions and just play more EVE.


Lot of wisdom in that


This is exactly the right answer. EVE has been unlike any other MMO previously - that is, until the introduction of this crappy new currency. I'm not even sure why I continue to post.. maybe I still have some faint hope that CCP will backpedal and start fixing their crap instead of playing some tune that sounds good to the investors. Many.. MANY EVE players would be more than happy to pay a higher monthly fee if the game was improved, instead of the P2W system that CCP is clearly aiming towards.

Unfortunately, I sorta think that EVE is dying and beyond the point of no return.

Ray Butts
Minmatar
Sniggerdly
Posted - 2011.06.27 22:15:00 - [135]
 

I been playing for 8 years. Why should I pay more for a game thats only fun when playing with your allaince.

And ccp got them selfs in this mess, but trying to make some fps that is going to fail hard.

Stick to eve ccp. Stop the greed.

Hilmar has to GO

Benri Konpaku
Posted - 2011.06.27 22:16:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: Randaltor
Originally by: Benri Konpaku
I'm really disappointed at CCP for misunderstanding PLEX income as an extra income.


For the most part you are right.. however I think, if there's a difference between the cost of a plex vs cost of subscription, then they make a slight profit.

Also it's possible that PLEX never get used.. in which case , it can be claimed as profit. For example, remember that 75 plexes that got destroyed in Jita. that's purre profit ! :)



Good point, that is indeed an extra profit on every PLEX sale. Though on the other hand it would be too much of a gamble for me to bet on unused PLEXes for projections, so that would probably be better considered as an extra just in case.

Holy One
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2011.06.27 22:16:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: Kirkland Langue
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Obviously Confidential

The CEO should really stop attending business gaming conventions and just play more EVE.


Lot of wisdom in that


This is exactly the right answer. EVE has been unlike any other MMO previously - that is, until the introduction of this crappy new currency. I'm not even sure why I continue to post.. maybe I still have some faint hope that CCP will backpedal and start fixing their crap instead of playing some tune that sounds good to the investors. Many.. MANY EVE players would be more than happy to pay a higher monthly fee if the game was improved, instead of the P2W system that CCP is clearly aiming towards.

Unfortunately, I sorta think that EVE is dying and beyond the point of no return.


Seriously, I think Hilmar and co. have probably spent more hours playing eve than I did getting my Phd. Shocked

DeODokktor
Caldari
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
Posted - 2011.06.27 22:18:00 - [138]
 

Dont think it's odd for a company to run in the red, most MMORPG's that have given details were made with the view that for every years worth of input will be repaid within 1 month of the retail release.

CCP's books shouldnt be in the black when developing these games, If the books are in the black then they are doing things too slowly.

If you strip out Dust and Vamp2012 then the books look healty.
If these projects drag ccp down too much all they have to do is give the boot to 400/500 staff working on those projects and they are then back in the good (on a month to month basic).

Benri Konpaku
Posted - 2011.06.27 22:19:00 - [139]
 

Fraud is not nice outside of the game. Laughing

Even less when it can cause the servers to shut down or go to other company.

Toawa
EVE Mercantile Exchange
Virtue of Selfishness
Posted - 2011.06.27 22:21:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: The Pteradactyl
Of course, I can only speak for the US, but in many states unclaimed gift card money has to be turned over to the state after five years or so (it varies), which then holds it in case it is claimed. Of course, many stores would put a monthly fee on the card balance to avoid that, except now there are states which have forbidden the practice.


Are you referring to debit type cards? What you are saying is true of anything with a Visa/Mastercard/Other company logo on it. The card you bought at the GAP, or the PLEX you bought from CCP does not provide such features.

Plus since there is no two-way transfer of PLEX (IE PLEX for real money) they don't need to reserve that cash for anything. If they did offer PLEX for real money transfer it would create a whole myriad of sticky situations especially taxes. It would be like chips at a casino, the government would come calling and people would accrue PLEX to sell for real money as a profession (making RMT easier and more legal). Not the intended idea.


As I said, it varies from state to state, but it does include store/company level cards in those states. I know that because they were talking about it before the Visa/Mastercard prepaid cards became a big thing. And I never said that the same would apply to PLEX (it's not even in the US), I'm saying that it might not have been a bad idea for CCP to bank it somewhere safe instead of spending it immediately.

coolzero
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.27 22:23:00 - [141]
 

quote from failheap explains it pretty well

.....

CCP is making an accounting profit but is burning $8.4M a year. This is because of how accounting treats research and development costs for new products.

They have $11M in the bank, have to repay a loan of $11.8M at the end of October, and will spend about $8M more on salaries than they take in in cash for the year. With no new loans or financing they will end the year at -$8M in their bank account. So that means they would be bankrupt October 28th. If they roll over the loan they well have $3M in the bank and still be burning cash at $2M per quarter. Which means they go bankrupt May 15th 2012 with no other new money or serious spending cutbacks.

.....

Entity
X-Factor Industries
Synthetic Existence
Posted - 2011.06.27 22:24:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: DeODokktor
Dont think it's odd for a company to run in the red, most MMORPG's that have given details were made with the view that for every years worth of input will be repaid within 1 month of the retail release.

CCP's books shouldnt be in the black when developing these games, If the books are in the black then they are doing things too slowly.

If you strip out Dust and Vamp2012 then the books look healty.
If these projects drag ccp down too much all they have to do is give the boot to 400/500 staff working on those projects and they are then back in the good (on a month to month basic).


The first part makes sense. the latter does not.

They cannot dump WoD (it's too tied with incarna, which is the same technology and has the same people working on it). They cannot dump Dust because it's past the point of no return, financially speaking.
Cutting employee count by 400 will set the company back 6 years and basically forfeit all the cash poured into WoD and Dust. How do you think investors will respond? That's right, they pull out, and I wouldn't blame them.

TLDR: They're stuck between a rock and a hard place.

The Pteradactyl
Posted - 2011.06.27 22:25:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: Toawa
I'm saying that it might not have been a bad idea for CCP to bank it somewhere safe instead of spending it immediately.


Regardless of whether they'll ever need to cover the value of their PLEX (they won't) I can agree with this statement. It is always a good idea to have some cash on hand.

spackles Ibsol
Posted - 2011.06.27 22:26:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: ddogg
Originally by: Yarrrrrhh
Edited by: Yarrrrrhh on 27/06/2011 19:22:51
Someone got their hands on the latest annual report of CCP. You can check it out yourself here.

CCP is a profitable company but it looks like it is having some cash flow problems because development costs for Dust and WoD are high. You can read an analysis of their situation here.

The will have to repay a large loan later this year which will require most of their cash assets therefore they'd have to take another loan or sell parts of their company. For that to be feasible though CCP has to show that it's making a profit and apparently they're trying to use MT to make their cash flow problem look less serious.

Which explains pretty much everything that CCP has done, said and hinted at so far.

TL;DR
Dust and WoD are burning too much of CCPs cash and therefore they need to at least show that MT can work in EVE so they can get their hands on fresh cash from loans/equity deals.


would be a shame to see the finest mmo ever made burned to finance new projects. ccp should have organised separate revenue streams for long term development, still easy to say in hind site. Hope they get it all sorted and don't have to sellout to one of the big companies to survive.


Agreed it would bew really sad to see th eonly Adults MMO on market die. None will ever make another one, because EVE is only real MMO to ever make it for so long. SWTOR forums are laughingly stating thousands of EVE players are migrating to play swtor. I couldn't stop laughing. When I made it clear to them that EVE players like to pvp an tor has none, the fanbois all reported me, I now have a 6 day ban for "insighting"....

But as for EVE,I am only a fisherman so I dont understand finance on this level, I can only hope they manage to fix things.

Bruce Svedker
Posted - 2011.06.27 22:27:00 - [145]
 

So if CCP goes bankrupt and dispands, would they reform as CCPdot and buy EVE from themselves?

RC Denton
Posted - 2011.06.27 22:28:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: Entity
Originally by: DeODokktor
Dont think it's odd for a company to run in the red, most MMORPG's that have given details were made with the view that for every years worth of input will be repaid within 1 month of the retail release.

CCP's books shouldnt be in the black when developing these games, If the books are in the black then they are doing things too slowly.

If you strip out Dust and Vamp2012 then the books look healty.
If these projects drag ccp down too much all they have to do is give the boot to 400/500 staff working on those projects and they are then back in the good (on a month to month basic).


The first part makes sense. the latter does not.

They cannot dump WoD (it's too tied with incarna, which is the same technology and has the same people working on it). They cannot dump Dust because it's past the point of no return, financially speaking.
Cutting employee count by 400 will set the company back 6 years and basically forfeit all the cash poured into WoD and Dust. How do you think investors will respond? That's right, they pull out, and I wouldn't blame them.

TLDR: They're stuck between a rock and a hard place.


Dust is definitely past the point of no return. But I disagree about WOD. They could certainly postpone it, or drop it all together. I do think Incarna is a beta test for WOD tech, but since they haven't hyped WOD up that much they should be able to push the pause button on it and drop some headcount. Since they're not, they're either not that worried about what's on the financial statement (I.E. They've got it taken care of), or they have some info that we don't such as Dust will release before then or whatnot.

Holy One
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2011.06.27 22:29:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: Bruce Svedker
So if CCP goes bankrupt and dispands, would they reform as CCPdot and buy EVE from themselves?


/thread

o7

gdjghjhgjfh
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.06.27 22:29:00 - [148]
 

what I see after costs, subs adding $$, and employee stock/pay is $11,000,000 surplus. Whats the problem?

Mindseamstress
Gallente
Jovian Labs
Jovian Enterprises
Posted - 2011.06.27 22:31:00 - [149]
 

Eve standalone could probably be worth around $300-500mil. It's unlikely CCP would be forced into default and restructuring given the long term cash flow profile of its core MMO, regardless of short-term cash flow issues (after all if the other games bomb, they can just fire a large chunk of personnel).

As far as I can see there is little actual downside here for player. Just uncertainly... Shame though that all this development cash wasn't deployed to build the Eve Universe. Very disappointing in fact and explains a lot.



Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.27 22:32:00 - [150]
 

Originally by: Lug Thorne
So really their short term financial future depends on keeping Eve going?


Looks like they need to repay 11 mil by or on 10-28-11. With an profit of 5-6 mil a year, have fun with that.

80 dollar monocle indeed.


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