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Yarrrrrhh
Posted - 2011.06.28 05:14:00 - [331]
 

Originally by: Asmodeus Et'Mort
So one question to all you accounting boffins out there, Isnt plex a liability to the company that should be included in these figures?
Apparently they are. Read the FHC thread at page 9 or so.

Benri Konpaku
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:19:00 - [332]
 

Originally by: Grog Barrel
Originally by: Xinxua
Originally by: Yarrrrrhh
Originally by: Lug Thorne
So really their short term financial future depends on keeping Eve going?
After jeopardizing it with WoD and Dust. That's how it looks to me.

Yes sticking to one product line and not expanding into new markets is the best way to expand your company.


why would you expand your company if you are doing well to begin with.



Same reason stupid people buy cars they can't afford even if their "old" car is working perfectly fine and saving them money after it's already been paid for I guess. In businesses some people seems to think if a company isn't growing in size and market share it's stalling. When ironically the pursuit of unrealistic growth is what kills so many companies with promising futures.

Greed is Good! (Even if it leaves you broke and with a huge debt.)

Saving Face
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:30:00 - [333]
 

The report says they recognize subscription revenue on a straight line basis over the time the subscription is paid for. This means PLEXes that are not yet redeemed should fall under unrecognized revenue as they can't have started recognizing it yet per these rules. This puts an upper limit on PLEX liability at around $3 million.

This is not really a problem. They already have the money. A PLEX credited to an account will make the balance sheet look about $15 prettier because the PLEX would be moved from liabilities to equity. It robs them of another opportunity to get money from you for that month but the reduction in income is still capped by the $3 million above.

If you buy a PLEX now, their liabilities go up by one PLEX. However they also get a cash infusion of one PLEX at a time where they are burning cash, which is a good thing. You don't even have to trash the PLEXes or spend them on monocles. You're effectively giving them a loan.

Whyther
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:41:00 - [334]
 

I'm also a bit concerned about the $4M+ in goodwill that hasn't been impaired in the last two fiscal cycles. Honestly, that's one of the first red flags we look for during an audit. It doesn't necessarily mean something is wrong, but lack of impairemens on assets is a good indicator that a company is buffering its numbers for end-of-year reports. Also, IFRS is a lot more forgiving than GAAP when it comes to allowing companies to make "judgement" calls on how to report certain items.

Saving Face
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:51:00 - [335]
 

Originally by: Whyther
I'm also a bit concerned about the $4M+ in goodwill that hasn't been impaired in the last two fiscal cycles.


I don't know if we have any indication that it would actually be reduced. They acquired White Wolf and their IP before the current emovampire rage.

Whyther
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:58:00 - [336]
 

Aye, didn't say it was impossible, just unusual, and a red flag. Impairments are tricky, and can never be reversed. Most corps wait until they absolutely have to recognize them, to do so. And as I said IFRS is a lot more lenient than GAAP.

Ryea Eripmav
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.28 07:01:00 - [337]
 

Edited by: Ryea Eripmav on 28/06/2011 07:51:39
Edited by: Ryea Eripmav on 28/06/2011 07:49:41
Edited by: Ryea Eripmav on 28/06/2011 07:08:36
I've read a few of the responses on the first page and all I have to say is I love that I was right about the EVE community.

I wrote the following letter as a comment to one of EVE-Online posts on Facebook. It reads as follows:
Originally by: My Facebook Comment on June 25
Dear CCP,

Here's an idea. Try and make good use of another growing business trend/model: Social responsibility. The way I try to put this into play as a consumer is by paying a fair price for the goods and services provided and repeating my business. I will ♦ willingly pay more ♦ if it means that 1) I get more of your quality goods and services and 2) your reputation and business model/culture is sustained and propagated as "good business."

My experience with EVE Online, thus partly why I enjoy it so much, has been that the player-base is [caring and] mature. Test and see if the players don't latch onto the idea of taking care of you as you take care of us, preserving the integrity of and sustaining the existence of your company. Set the tone, tell us your hopes for and expectations of the players and we can help you to blaze trails with our MMORPG player culture, conduct and attitude. From where I sit, that's a powerful thing!

CCP -if you really want to grow and expand, look to the player-base you have nurtured. We fight so vehemently because we ♥ LOVE ♥ this game and what you have given us so very much. I'm sure I'm not the only one that adores the CCP culture and innovations we read about in the dev blogs and gaming magazines: Some of them compel me to feel ♦ PROUD ♦ to be part of that as a patron of your offerings. I would be more than happy to combine my EVE subscription with a DUST514 subscription, say for $3-5 more a month or something.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Regarding micro-Transactions, my personal stance is this:
So long as micro-transaction inventory is limited to "fluff", as one person in the Fearless newsletter puts it, I take no issue with the system. When players can outright pay for an advantage, that's where I draw the line. I have*adored* EVE (got that CCP? EVE is my first, one and only MMORPG love) because it doesn't have a micro-transaction system that allows whiny, impatient, intellectually-challenged people to pay for big guns, big advantages and the ability to grief others through their monetary might.

I can't turn a blind-eye toward which has paved the way for micro- transactions: PLEX. From where I sit, PLEX has been a testbed for micro-transactions, and thus far, I'm sure it has proven to be quite successful. But it is nonetheless an essentially roundabout way of legally purchasing ISK, and thus an advantage, but what's done is done. It cannot be undone. But I cannot advocate taking it further than what already exists, so please don't press the matter.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
♥,
A Smitten CCP patron


Other ideas [list may be added to on a later date as they are gleaned from this thread and others]:
  • Start selling DUST514 to EVE players in advance of actual release/launch. Once it launches, kick in some token of thanks like a kick-ass outfit for the avatar of our choice or something for the char we setup in DUST514.

  • Put a time-limit on PLEX's.

Zeta Kalin
Large Rodent Hunters
Posted - 2011.06.28 07:02:00 - [338]
 

Originally by: Saving Face
Originally by: Whyther
I'm also a bit concerned about the $4M+ in goodwill that hasn't been impaired in the last two fiscal cycles.


I don't know if we have any indication that it would actually be reduced. They acquired White Wolf and their IP before the current emovampire rage.


WoD Vampires are more Ann Rice's than Stephenie Meyer's. Not the same crowd at all.

Saving Face
Posted - 2011.06.28 07:07:00 - [339]
 

Yeah I just think they will want to wait with the impairment of White Wolf goodwill until they know how profitable WoD is. Since that gives them a benchmark for the value of their IP.

kari bourza
The Black Legionnares
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2011.06.28 07:08:00 - [340]
 

They sure as hell not going to make as much money from selling indestructible fluff items, how many monocles can one buy or want to

own ? and even the increase of subscriptions from incarna hype is gone with the wind, no body is going to join a game with such a

poisonous atmosphere, so what do we have left ? non fluffy items ! which mean either way EVE is ****ed, i do hope i'm wrong

Saving Face
Posted - 2011.06.28 07:17:00 - [341]
 

Oh they don't need to make *much* money. They only need to show that they can milk us for more cash. It doesn't actually have to be a lot since they are just starting.

So if all goes well, they will straight out tell the CSM they are desperate for cash. The CSM will help them find ways to milk us in a way that will not pee all over those customers who don't want to be milked. A realistic guess I think would be cheaper clothes appearing in the NEX. If they can see profit in that sort of thing then the CSM might be able to extract a promise about non-vanity MT, which would cause the rage to subside. With no rage and very little profits from MT they would still have shown a potential to increase profits so I don't quite understand why they didn't do that in the first place.

Also you know how it is with predictions that start out with "if all goes well". If CCP decides on being :ccp: they will flat out refuse everything the CSM could possibly ask for and go full MT. They may even be able to show a profit from that - I don't know how forum rage translates to lost subscription income. EVE might no longer be the game we're playing right now (or not). But it might well become another game that is more profitable than EVE is right now.

The sad part is that EVE on its own is profitable. They overestimated their strength with regard to Dust and WoD and now have to milk EVE to fix it, or sell some of their assets. Since their assets are mostly code they wrote, that can't mean anything good either.


Aelius
Caldari
Mnemonic Enterprises
Dark Matter Coalition
Posted - 2011.06.28 07:20:00 - [342]
 

Edited by: Aelius on 28/06/2011 07:54:30

Seriously... hire me.

-I know the game from the start

-I know exactly why players care so much about EVE.

-I know for a fact that cheap vanity items means more people buying them (10000@2€ =20000€ > 42@60€ =2520€)
Example "League of Legends"

-Don't ever sell game advantage items in MT. It goes against the reason players care so much about EVE.

-Reinforce bot and RMT fight.

-Empower the players by letting them invest in EVE by buying CCP stocks. (you never know which of us are RL millionaires, remember that Samuel L. Jackson plays EVE)
This is called issuing more company shares to raise your capital, perhaps a better solution then a new loan.

-But most important don't lie to us, don't use cloak device T3 to hide stupid plans to MT game advantage items. Be honest, and if in trouble simply ask for our help and we won't refuse to give it.

-Again... BE HONEST WITH US.

Lemmy Kravitz
Minmatar
Rebirth.
Posted - 2011.06.28 07:47:00 - [343]
 

Dust is going to fail miserably as a title too much competition between monster titles like HALO, COD, MOH, BF

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.06.28 08:05:00 - [344]
 

Originally by: Velvet Dream
I frankly don't understand what all the rage is about. You can already buy SP for USD (USD->PLEX->ISK->character bazaar), uber weapons and modules that are enormously more powerful than anything 99.999% of population can reasonably afford or risk (USD->PLEX->ISK->estamel's invulneravility field). So why don't you just let CCP have this and people who either don't care about the cash or are stupid enough to blow the money on an advantage that simply exposes them to a higher monetary risk?
Because there are fundamental differences between PLEX and MT. All the things you've mentioned are subject to in-game limitations when it comes to supply, and they are all part of the in-game economy. MT bypasses all of that and injects value into the economy in a way PLEX does not.

So yes, it's very new and not comparable to what PLEX lets you do.
Originally by: Josh Bolder
I have not seen this supposed annual report, but you all seem to be speculating on a cash flow forecast. Which may have many varying aspects, not to forget that the engines (Carbon) and code, itself will be sold to other markets e.g. the quake engine or the Unreal Engine and many more.
Originally by: Terminal Insanity
Huh, i guess ID Software, Valve Software, Epic Games, Turbine, etc, etc, never got that memo.

Good thing we've got these brilliant eve players here to show these industry fools how to run a corp! I'll bet they'll be glad to know they need to stop selling game engines.
…and again, no, it will not be sold to other markets. “The Carbon Framework is used by CCP to create virtual worlds, and not intended or available for licensing.” They have decided (and clearly communicated) that Carbon is their magic sauce that gives them a competitive edge. Reversing that decision and starting to license it to third-party developers would be a huge step.

At best, you can become (essentially) a local-market CCP game franchise, buy you can't get the engine to build your own game.


Andrei Vassaliev
Cursed Inc.
Not Found.
Posted - 2011.06.28 09:12:00 - [345]
 

Edited by: Andrei Vassaliev on 28/06/2011 09:26:29
Originally by: Yarrrrrhh


They will have to repay a large loan later this year which will require most of their cash assets therefore they'd have to take another loan or sell parts of their company. For that to be feasible though CCP has to show that it's making a profit and apparently they're trying to use MT to make their cash flow problem look less serious.

Which explains pretty much everything that CCP has done, said and hinted at so far.

TL;DR
Dust and WoD are burning too much cash and therefore CCP needs to show that microtransactions can work in EVE so they can convince banks/investors to give them a cash injection. Ideally yesterday.



So, CCP is burning 50% of the money we give them monthly, not to work on EVE Online, but to develop a FPS game on PS3 and a Vampire MMO? If only we had some good expansions on EVE Online, it could be ok. But this last 2 years we got unfinished and/or useless expansions.

I don't pay 26€/month to subsidize the development of Dust 514, nor World of Darkness, but to play a MMO spaceship game. I don't care about these other games, nor about the financial issues due to a questionable strategy of CCP.

Focus on EVE Online, that's what we pay for Exclamation
Or die.

edith prickley
Posted - 2011.06.28 09:27:00 - [346]
 

Originally by: Grog Barrel
Originally by: Xinxua
Originally by: Yarrrrrhh
Originally by: Lug Thorne
So really their short term financial future depends on keeping Eve going?
After jeopardizing it with WoD and Dust. That's how it looks to me.

Yes sticking to one product line and not expanding into new markets is the best way to expand your company.


why would you expand your company if you are doing well to begin with.



Probably safety from having all their eggs in one basket. Right now, CCP enjoys a monopoly in a niche market. But that could change quickly. If another developer steps in with a single-sharded economic sandbox and provides a bit of extra polish over what CCP is offering (which wouldn't be hard), they could pull a large fraction of EVE users who are perpetually on the verge of quitting but just have nowhere else to go for a similar experience at the moment.

So once they were on solid economic footing and had good cash flow coming in, it made sense to try to look for alternative money-makers -- not necessarily out of greed, but to give their company a more secure footing in case the golden goose stops laying eggs.

But at that point, a number of decisions stop making sense to me. An FPS doesn't play to any of CCP's strengths, unless they have some hidden talents we're not aware of. The WoD IP seems of questionable value, and I just don't see that CCP's the company who can make something work in that genre. Vampires are supposed to be cool, and sorry CCP, but "a man's gotta know his limitations."

In any case, while you're looking for new ventures, unless you are very sure of their success and want to do acrobatics without a safety net, your first priority still has to be to maintain the customers who have been paying the bills all along. CCP looks to be playing on riskier side of this line.

Anyhow, I think you can't blame them for looking into other investments, every company does it. But it's hard to understand, for me at least, many of the investment choices they've made.

Liam Snow
Posted - 2011.06.28 09:35:00 - [347]
 

Does ANYONE know what the source of these documents are? I have looked everywhere and all I can find are documents from 2008... While these documents are available to the public there are other documents released yearly in conjunction to this. If anyone could find the origin of this, and thus the location of the other documents.

Kristina Vanszar
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.28 09:39:00 - [348]
 

FFS i'd ****ing donate 500 € for eve if needed, why not just ask, stay clear "hey guys we in trouble, need help"
Sell ****ing share to your customers -> problem solved.

Zombatar
Posted - 2011.06.28 09:44:00 - [349]
 

Originally by: Liam Snow
Does ANYONE know what the source of these documents are? I have looked everywhere and all I can find are documents from 2008... While these documents are available to the public there are other documents released yearly in conjunction to this. If anyone could find the origin of this, and thus the location of the other documents.


See this thread, you got the report from end of 2010. Click on start reading.

Kuronaga
Black Snake Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.28 09:54:00 - [350]
 

They could just stop production of WoD (which everyone knows is going to fail) and focus purely on eve/dust.

I suppose thats making too much sense though.

edith prickley
Posted - 2011.06.28 09:55:00 - [351]
 

Edited by: edith prickley on 28/06/2011 10:00:29
Originally by: Kristina Vanszar
FFS i'd ****ing donate 500 € for eve if needed, why not just ask, stay clear "hey guys we in trouble, need help"
Sell ****ing share to your customers -> problem solved.


Does this look like a good investment to you? What fundamental problems does it solve which will not recur six months from now?

You are currently paying $180/year for EVE. Are you getting your money's worth? Regardless of whether you can afford it, is $180+$500 really a fair price for this game? What has CCP done to earn their bonus?

When someone in Jita-local says "hey guys we in trouble, need help," how do you respond?

Artemidoros
Dark Crystal Research
Posted - 2011.06.28 09:58:00 - [352]
 

Not sure if its been brought up before, but would commercial endorsements work? I wouldn't mind wearing a "Nike" or "Adidas" shirt if it meant that CCP would get more monies for new/more content designers. Surely there would be money to be made if possible that way?

Hell even seeing a blimp flying around the hanger spamming Subway/McDonald's or Coke/Pepsi insignia wouldn't hurt.

Takseen
Posted - 2011.06.28 10:04:00 - [353]
 

Originally by: Josh Bolder
LMAO guys i seriously doubt this is real the audit goes from january 1st to dec 31 companies year end usually crosses over e.g. 2010/11. they had 300,000 accounts (which they had more of last year) at $20 a pop = 72 million dollars, not 50 million.

I only skim read it so I am not sure, but It is an audit so could have a lot of other paper work we cant see. But i do no wages are a cost of sale and seemed to be missing from the gross profit


This is a shopped audit, I can tell from some of the numbers and because I no wages.

Katra Novac
Posted - 2011.06.28 10:06:00 - [354]
 

Originally by: Takseen
Originally by: Josh Bolder
LMAO guys i seriously doubt this is real the audit goes from january 1st to dec 31 companies year end usually crosses over e.g. 2010/11. they had 300,000 accounts (which they had more of last year) at $20 a pop = 72 million dollars, not 50 million.

I only skim read it so I am not sure, but It is an audit so could have a lot of other paper work we cant see. But i do no wages are a cost of sale and seemed to be missing from the gross profit


This is a shopped audit, I can tell from some of the numbers and because I no wages.



You 'no wages' are you saying you don't have an income?

Kuronaga
Black Snake Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.28 10:07:00 - [355]
 

Not sure why some of you are encouraging the idea of appealing to CCP and helping them out.

They have made it clear that they wish to over extend the expansion of the company foolishly and without longterm foresight.

They have made it doubly clear that the answer for their mistake is to sacrifice the game that got them to where they are.

Why should any of you want to help them?

They made a long series of mistakes -- let them pay for it.

Doing anything else just encourages them to continue abusing their fanbase.

RaTTuS
BIG
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2011.06.28 10:08:00 - [356]
 

Jeeze,
I thought rumour threads where banned anyway,

people in this thread are pulling figures out of dark places for FUD reasons -

OP and failblog are just mentally wrong on so many fronts [and no I dont work for ccp]

Katra Novac
Posted - 2011.06.28 10:09:00 - [357]
 

Originally by: Kuronaga
Not sure why some of you are encouraging the idea of appealing to CCP and helping them out.

They have made it clear that they wish to over extend the expansion of the company foolishly and without longterm foresight.

They have made it doubly clear that the answer for their mistake is to sacrifice the game that got them to where they are.

Why should any of you want to help them?

They made a long series of mistakes -- let them pay for it.

Doing anything else just encourages them to continue abusing their fanbase.



Yeah, they have to take the responsibility for their actions, just like anyone else.

Saving Face
Posted - 2011.06.28 10:20:00 - [358]
 

Originally by: Katra Novac
Yeah, they have to take the responsibility for their actions, just like anyone else.


Sure, but that doesn't mean we want EVE to stop if we can help it.

Cataca
Posted - 2011.06.28 10:23:00 - [359]
 

Im not exactly qualified but tbh, i dont see the issue here.

They are relatively debt light and just have an issue with cashflow. Assuming that DUST will stop eating funds and generate some kind of profit they should easily be in the green again.

That said, they will have to find a new investor before october.

edith prickley
Posted - 2011.06.28 10:31:00 - [360]
 

Originally by: Saving Face
Originally by: Katra Novac
Yeah, they have to take the responsibility for their actions, just like anyone else.


Sure, but that doesn't mean we want EVE to stop if we can help it.


Are you paying for your subscription? Then you are doing all that is required of you.

If CCP can't manage your subscription money, throwing more money at them won't solve that problem.


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