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Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
Posted - 2011.06.28 01:44:00 - [301]
 



But nothing to worry about, CCP have a SOLID REPUTATION and their investors are well liked in Iceland.


Indy Rider
Amarr
Firebird Squadron
Terra-Incognita
Posted - 2011.06.28 01:44:00 - [302]
 

Edited by: Indy Rider on 28/06/2011 01:44:23
Originally by: Miilla
Edited by: Miilla on 28/06/2011 01:40:28



$8m in 4 months. That's a lot of monocles. 114285.7142857143 to be exact. I don't think there is that many customers to buy monocles.




Oh god, please stop posting.

They won't have a reputation if they can't pay the loan. Remember the bank problem in Iceland? Whos going to give money to an Icelandic company who can't fund their own ****.

Andrea Griffin
Posted - 2011.06.28 01:44:00 - [303]
 

Originally by: SciWolf
JUST RAISE THE SUB. THAT IS ALL. OR A DONATE BUTTON FFS.Mad
What on earth is wrong with you? Confused If you want to give CCP money then buy another year of account time. Or, start a second account or something. That's fine. But donating? Neutral This is a business not a charity.

diaufop
Posted - 2011.06.28 01:44:00 - [304]
 

Originally by: PepperPotts
The link in the OP to the fiscals is no longer valid, anybody got a better - working - link ?


Linkage

Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
Posted - 2011.06.28 01:46:00 - [305]
 

Edited by: Miilla on 28/06/2011 01:48:08
Originally by: Andrea Griffin
Originally by: SciWolf
JUST RAISE THE SUB. THAT IS ALL. OR A DONATE BUTTON FFS.Mad
What on earth is wrong with you? Confused If you want to give CCP money then buy another year of account time. Or, start a second account or something. That's fine. But donating? Neutral This is a business not a charity.


They can issue us Bonds as security for the loan, then it matures, they pay us back.

Safer than JUNK BONDS (just about).

Then they can keep doing whatever they do and keep issuing bonds that mature each year.

No sense in fixing the actual problem, just dig your way out.



Raise the sub is almost as funny as the donate button lol

They target every player to spend $3000 per YEAR on Eve, that is $250 per MONTH ... MINIMUM

So yeah raise the sub... just $250 per month... MINIMUM

Idiot.

Kilmiester
Posted - 2011.06.28 01:48:00 - [306]
 

Originally by: The PDF
The terms of such bank loan provide that the Company will not secure its property with respect to additional financial debt, other than permitted exceptions outlined in the agreement.


Not a financial wizard, so probably wrong. But it seems to me that there are limitations on their ability to just roll over the loan as it stands right now. So as someone said earlier in this thread. CCP needs to inflate their numbers a little so they can show off prettier charts and spreadsheets. Working money store(at least on paper) adds a lot of value to borrow against.

Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
Posted - 2011.06.28 01:49:00 - [307]
 

Edited by: Miilla on 28/06/2011 01:50:32
Originally by: Kilmiester
Originally by: The PDF
The terms of such bank loan provide that the Company will not secure its property with respect to additional financial debt, other than permitted exceptions outlined in the agreement.


Not a financial wizard, so probably wrong. But it seems to me that there are limitations on their ability to just roll over the loan as it stands right now. So as someone said earlier in this thread. CCP needs to inflate their numbers a little so they can show off prettier charts and spreadsheets. Working money store(at least on paper) adds a lot of value to borrow against.



And those creditors can see through that smoke and mirrors, it is their job. What they want to see is the actual store MAKING MONEY and CCP have to have it up and profiting NOW.

Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
Posted - 2011.06.28 01:53:00 - [308]
 

Edited by: Miilla on 28/06/2011 01:54:46
Originally by: Indy Rider
Edited by: Indy Rider on 28/06/2011 01:44:23
Originally by: Miilla
Edited by: Miilla on 28/06/2011 01:40:28



$8m in 4 months. That's a lot of monocles. 114285.7142857143 to be exact. I don't think there is that many customers to buy monocles.




Oh god, please stop posting.

They won't have a reputation if they can't pay the loan. Remember the bank problem in Iceland? Whos going to give money to an Icelandic company who can't fund their own ****.





Somebody should make a webpage with a counter that keeps a tally of monocles sold :) (or not)

I can see the situation room in CCP HQ now, A huge screen with a Monocle Counter and a Doomsday clock beside it.




kari bourza
The Black Legionnares
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2011.06.28 01:58:00 - [309]
 

Big lol at the people giving suggestions and feeling sorry for CCP, isn't it already obvious that they dont give a flying **** about

us ? it was already obvious when they started this DUST crap, so they decide without asking our opinion to go and create a new game

for console and when they fail we're supposed to pay ? never gonna happen CCP not even in your wildest Dreams

Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.28 02:05:00 - [310]
 

Forum hobby economists at work. Surely they know best!

Back in 2006 it used to be: "I work as an IT-Professional and I think what CCP are doing wrong in fixing the lag is connecting their cables wrong"

Now it's "I'm in law-school, this shows that CCP are bankrupt in a few months!"

And these are the people who want to have open doors access to the CSM-meeting, oh boy! I can't wait to have Mr. "I got an MIT-graduation in my e-mail" influence the future of EVE.

Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
Posted - 2011.06.28 02:05:00 - [311]
 

Originally by: Headerman
Originally by: Miilla
Edited by: Miilla on 28/06/2011 01:56:19
Originally by: Headerman
I for one get alot of enjoyment out of Eve and i am happy to pay to keep them going and expanding. The whole 'Greed is good' email made CCP look like they wanted a pay rise. But it not, and they really do need the money, i am fine with it.



$8m in 4 months. That's 114285.7142857143 Monocles to be exact.

Better start shopping rich boy.



Hmmm i have 17 chars, so thats 17 monacles... 3 plex each... should be easily do-able.

You want one too Hobo?


Definition of SAD.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.28 02:06:00 - [312]
 

Originally by: Terminal Insanity
Originally by: Miilla
Show where CCP is planning to license the Carbon engine, licensing it to your competitors is not really a good idea, unless you expect them to bail you out, but that could back fire.


Huh, i guess ID Software, Valve Software, Epic Games, Turbine, etc, etc, never got that memo.

Good thing we've got these brilliant eve players here to show these industry fools how to run a corp! I'll bet they'll be glad to know they need to stop selling game engines.


License Carbon? Really?

If this was brought to my desk for evaluation I'd laugh. It has no documentation, it's not been ported any place except Eve, there's no community of independent developers around it, no one to consult much less hire.

They don't even have documentation for the API at $99 a year.

No one would buy it when there are other proven platforms with tons of support.

Josh Bolder
Posted - 2011.06.28 02:10:00 - [313]
 

LMAO guys i seriously doubt this is real the audit goes from january 1st to dec 31 companies year end usually crosses over e.g. 2010/11. they had 300,000 accounts (which they had more of last year) at $20 a pop = 72 million dollars, not 50 million.

I only skim read it so I am not sure, but It is an audit so could have a lot of other paper work we cant see. But i do no wages are a cost of sale and seemed to be missing from the gross profit

Neira Momaki
Posted - 2011.06.28 02:10:00 - [314]
 

Originally by: kari bourza
Big lol at the people giving suggestions and feeling sorry for CCP, isn't it already obvious that they dont give a flying **** about

us ? it was already obvious when they started this DUST crap, so they decide without asking our opinion to go and create a new game

for console and when they fail we're supposed to pay ? never gonna happen CCP not even in your wildest Dreams


Think abut it dofus, why would they risk angering the whole population of EVE if they didn't absolutely have to? How long do you think a company can innovate and progress with a platform that doesn't appeal to a large group, so out comes Dust which must have envelopment costs in the millions.

now you are between a rock and a hard place, you are too far down the path of PS3 game development to pull out and the EVE subscriptions might not have been enough to cover the costs of EVE alone by its self with constant hardware upgrades an the such. The millions of dollars have to come from somewhere o MT and the EVE community suffers.

But if you ask me I'd rather have EVE suffer a little than CCP closes or gets gobbled up by EA who would want a WOW competitor.

I wish CCP would have just been honest with the player base instead of trying to slid it in on us. If they had pleaded with the player base every ne of the EVE players would have chipped in.

and before you say '**** you ccp, you get what you deserved". what good do you honestly think would come of CCP failing? YEA **** YOU CCP TAKE THAT, NOW LET ME LOG INTO EV... oh **** ball...

4IN1
Posted - 2011.06.28 02:11:00 - [315]
 

Well having 3 game in line is not all that insane afterall, just take a look at BIS(many people who are in mil sim gaming should know who they are, no?)They have 3 game in developement cycle, 2 of them use already exsisted engine, one use new engine and had been under long development time, and their pass game all have bugs problem but you don't hear their CEO crying about and their patch do fix some bugs, what they have, it seems, is good management.

Benri Konpaku
Posted - 2011.06.28 02:12:00 - [316]
 

Originally by: Miilla



But nothing to worry about, CCP have a SOLID REPUTATION and their investors are well liked in Iceland.




LOLOLOLOLOL Laughing

Machete Visor
Posted - 2011.06.28 02:18:00 - [317]
 

Edited by: Machete Visor on 28/06/2011 02:29:40
i dont see an bankruptcy potential here.

i see $11M in the bank in cash at 12/31.
$11M due in October
$17M in operating free cash flow.


the only trouble spot I see:
$30M in salaries. That is more than 50% of all revenues. $23M was capitalizd and not including the free cash flow. That is an issue.


So basically, what i see is a business that has a nice little annuity (eve) and is developing... it may be sold if its development efforts fail, but bankruptcy is not on the doorstep ... nothing like that.

Frankly i expected more debt. t

Ignore the deferred income, development costs, capitalized items etc etc. Bankers (lenders) look for free cash and debt ratio + any valuable assets for a company like this.

equity holders (including CCP employees) would care about the other stuff, but equity holders aren't gonna send the company under.

They may, however, buy out the company if return targets aren't being met. That is far more likely, imho, than a bankruptcy.

Obviously Confidential
Posted - 2011.06.28 02:19:00 - [318]
 

Seems the CSM is already making progress with CCP and communication is flowing - this is the right thing to happen.

These things we have identified, vented and protested about, will not get solved in 1-2 days.

CCP seems to be doing the right thing and we should give them a chance to sort it out.

The possibility that a game company will change it's ways after the community speaks and that this is achieved through an elected body of player representatives is pretty awesome in itself, we can set a standard for EVE and other games.

This is a good thing for "us": EVE, community, CCP. Not to mention my favorite game get's to write another page on the annals of the gaming industry Very Happy

kari bourza
The Black Legionnares
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2011.06.28 02:28:00 - [319]
 

I still didn't see a single proof that a company absolutely need to grow to survive, i know a lot of companies that didn't

grow an inch since 1970 but instead focused on what they already have or do, and tried to make it better, and they're still around,

and they don't owe money to banks, because simply they don't try to play with heavy weights when they cant afford it and keep their

ambitions in check, either way they didn't ask our opinion and if they ****ed up , they shouldn't afterward expect us to bail them

out, and believe me i don't want to see EVE dying, but like the old saying goes : you make your own bed, and you lie in it

Selinate
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.28 02:30:00 - [320]
 

bad link for the annual report.

Machete Visor
Posted - 2011.06.28 02:31:00 - [321]
 

Originally by: kari bourza
I still didn't see a single proof that a company absolutely need to grow to survive, i know a lot of companies that didn't

grow an inch since 1970 but instead focused on what they already have or do, and tried to make it better, and they're still around,

and they don't owe money to banks, because simply they don't try to play with heavy weights when they cant afford it and keep their

ambitions in check, either way they didn't ask our opinion and if they ****ed up , they shouldn't afterward expect us to bail them

out, and believe me i don't want to see EVE dying, but like the old saying goes : you make your own bed, and you lie in it


companies must grow, period.
if you don't, your equity holders will sell. they sell, company folds.

you can't sit without growth unless you are owned by a single person who will keep their money in. anyone with economically rationale investors must grow

Linar Mardolak
Minmatar
Phlogiston Absorption
Posted - 2011.06.28 02:53:00 - [322]
 

Originally by: Obviously Confidential
Seems the CSM is already making progress with CCP and communication is flowing - this is the right thing to happen.

These things we have identified, vented and protested about, will not get solved in 1-2 days.



This didn't come from the CSM, it came from finding the public financial records that CCP is required to file as an Icelandic corporation.

Bklyn 1
Posted - 2011.06.28 02:57:00 - [323]
 

Originally by: Machete Visor
Originally by: kari bourza
I still didn't see a single proof that a company absolutely need to grow to survive, i know a lot of companies that didn't

grow an inch since 1970 but instead focused on what they already have or do, and tried to make it better, and they're still around,

and they don't owe money to banks, because simply they don't try to play with heavy weights when they cant afford it and keep their

ambitions in check, either way they didn't ask our opinion and if they ****ed up , they shouldn't afterward expect us to bail them

out, and believe me i don't want to see EVE dying, but like the old saying goes : you make your own bed, and you lie in it


companies must grow, period.
if you don't, your equity holders will sell. they sell, company folds.

you can't sit without growth unless you are owned by a single person who will keep their money in. anyone with economically rationale investors must grow



but CCP is privately owned, isn't it?

Linar Mardolak
Minmatar
Phlogiston Absorption
Posted - 2011.06.28 02:57:00 - [324]
 

Edited by: Linar Mardolak on 28/06/2011 03:35:18
Originally by: kari bourza
I still didn't see a single proof that a company absolutely need to grow to survive, i know a lot of companies that didn't

grow an inch since 1970 but instead focused on what they already have or do, and tried to make it better, and they're still around,

and they don't owe money to banks, because simply they don't try to play with heavy weights when they cant afford it and keep their

ambitions in check, either way they didn't ask our opinion and if they ****ed up , they shouldn't afterward expect us to bail them

out, and believe me i don't want to see EVE dying, but like the old saying goes : you make your own bed, and you lie in it


Yes, plenty of companies - Joe's Drycleaning, Fred G. Sanford and Son Salvage....wait:

Hilmar and Touborg...Salvage

Oveur has to be Uncle Woodrow...players are Esther?
Grady is Zulu?

Grog Barrel
Posted - 2011.06.28 03:00:00 - [325]
 

Originally by: Xinxua
Originally by: Yarrrrrhh
Originally by: Lug Thorne
So really their short term financial future depends on keeping Eve going?
After jeopardizing it with WoD and Dust. That's how it looks to me.

Yes sticking to one product line and not expanding into new markets is the best way to expand your company.


why would you expand your company if you are doing well to begin with.

Linar Mardolak
Minmatar
Phlogiston Absorption
Posted - 2011.06.28 03:01:00 - [326]
 

Originally by: Bklyn 1
Originally by: Machete Visor
Originally by: kari bourza
I still didn't see a single proof that a company absolutely need to grow to survive, i know a lot of companies that didn't

grow an inch since 1970 but instead focused on what they already have or do, and tried to make it better, and they're still around,

and they don't owe money to banks, because simply they don't try to play with heavy weights when they cant afford it and keep their

ambitions in check, either way they didn't ask our opinion and if they ****ed up , they shouldn't afterward expect us to bail them

out, and believe me i don't want to see EVE dying, but like the old saying goes : you make your own bed, and you lie in it


companies must grow, period.
if you don't, your equity holders will sell. they sell, company folds.

you can't sit without growth unless you are owned by a single person who will keep their money in. anyone with economically rationale investors must grow



but CCP is privately owned, isn't it?


Privately owned, but mostly held by VCs.
(hint: The VCs don't just let you do whatever you want with their company.)

Velvet Dream
Posted - 2011.06.28 03:07:00 - [327]
 

Edited by: Velvet Dream on 28/06/2011 03:09:39
I frankly don't understand what all the rage is about. You can already buy SP for USD (USD->PLEX->ISK->character bazaar), uber weapons and modules that are enormously more powerful than anything 99.999% of population can reasonably afford or risk (USD->PLEX->ISK->estamel's invulneravility field). So why don't you just let CCP have this and people who either don't care about the cash or are stupid enough to blow the money on an advantage that simply exposes them to a higher monetary risk?

Nubs in EVE can already buy a 75b nightmare (equivalent to 200 plex or about $3400 USD in CCP PLEX sale price), which sure is much more powerful than many other ships. I think the foundation of EVE is power/ISK and risk management, not absolute power. The uber nubs will be outnumbered and slaughtered and will lose their precious AUR. Better kill board mail for you, more money for CCP, Nothing to cry about. As long as CCP doesn't start selling uber ammo for super cheap in AUR... who cares? Nothing new. PvP outcome is still mainly going to be based on skill and numbers.

If you want to feel powerful based on your time investment into the game and you feel like your hard work and advantage is being taken away by introduction of potential time shortcuts, EVE is not a game for you and has never been. WoW is. Also nothing will substitute for actual play experience. PvP in EVE is often not about absolute power but better intel, fitting and fleet command.

I do find the fact that AUR prices are not aligned to an even number of PLEX a super cheap move on CCP part. It forces you to spend double in AUR on some items. Cheap and rather disgusting marketing trick.

I also think selling SP is not in CCP's interest as people will get bored of the game quicker if they can get all the uber power fast.

Also, AUR items can be sold on contracts, so the USD->PLEX->ISK->AUR->ISK->whatever is a closed loop and doesn't really change anything except providing opportunities for profit for AUR item resellers. The PLEX->ISK->AUR loop is closed even though AUR can't be directly traded back for PLEX or ISK.

Nothing new here, move on.

Linar Mardolak
Minmatar
Phlogiston Absorption
Posted - 2011.06.28 03:16:00 - [328]
 

Edited by: Linar Mardolak on 28/06/2011 04:52:43
Originally by: Velvet Dream
hurf blurf PLEX is exactly the same as AUR, pasted into 4 separate threads so far


Yeah, try starting another worthless General thread for that, like the other 433987 identical ones that are shot down every couple of minutes. The topic here is "CCP's Financial Situation". Do you have some insight into their burn rate, or whether PLEX are deferred income in the financial documents?

Rainer Unsinn
Posted - 2011.06.28 03:42:00 - [329]
 

Originally by: Slymah
I would support a "donate" button over MT's


There is one: buy PLEX, trash it.

Rowbin Hod
InterSun Freelance
The Forsaken.
Posted - 2011.06.28 05:11:00 - [330]
 

Originally by: Josh Bolder
LMAO guys i seriously doubt this is real the audit goes from january 1st to dec 31 companies year end usually crosses over e.g. 2010/11. they had 300,000 accounts (which they had more of last year) at $20 a pop = 72 million dollars, not 50 million.

I only skim read it so I am not sure, but It is an audit so could have a lot of other paper work we cant see. But i do no wages are a cost of sale and seemed to be missing from the gross profit


Companies often align their year end with tax years in their country (eg in UK a disproportionate number of companies have YE of march 31st as the tax year ends on April 5th). But it's by no means a requirement, and you can make your company year end whenever you want.


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