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Mei Serine
Posted - 2011.07.05 13:05:00 - [241]
 

Edited by: Mei Serine on 05/07/2011 13:05:09
Hi,

I hope the OP still reads this thread. In a nutshell; the massive difference between PLEX for ISK and then ISK for characters/in-game items and PLEX for items or skillpoints is injection.

CCP have PLEX being sold to players for in-game currency because the currency is generated at a normal pace. The same goes for selling characters; they were trained at a regular pace.

To sell skillpoints or items that were not created by 'normal' means (time investment, looting, etc) is the fastest way to break an economy like Eve's. It will also quickly change the dynamic of the game if thousands of people can quickly buy their way into a particular type of ship.

I hope that explains why your idea, while theoretically fine, is fundamentally game breaking.

Tekashi Kovacs
Posted - 2011.07.05 14:06:00 - [242]
 

Didnt read whole thread but imo they should sell partial respecs instead of SP. Like 1m SP respec (of skills of choice), 2m 5m max or so. One/two months delay between respecs. No full respec though.

Guillas Atild
Posted - 2011.07.05 14:31:00 - [243]
 

I agree with Humpink that skillpoint (SP) should be allowed to be brought with RL cash. Even if one buys SP one still needs the ISK to buy the skillbooks, ship and etc.

The reason I support buying of SP is purely personal. I was unable to play EVE due to RL issues. These issues have are gone now and I am back playing but I am a full two years behind on SP training. I would love a game mechanic so I could catch up on those skill point training.

Evenus Battuta
Posted - 2011.07.05 14:33:00 - [244]
 

Edited by: Evenus Battuta on 05/07/2011 14:40:56
Originally by: Toovhon
I'm inclined to believe this is a mental issue of your own making


well you don't really need to worry about me that much or try that hard to argue with me. The game didn't bother me that much: I subbed and moved on, just enjoying some last whine while dying out.

I understand your point: although there are many unplesant in the game, you chose to overcome(or enjoy) it with your patience and optimism etc. That's good personality of you you r a life enjoyer, and I chose to simply unsub. It is not saying that I don't have the good personality as you do, it is just I don't see the point of using my patience and optimism in a video game. I pay CCP, not the opposite; and I pay for some simple entertainment of flying spaceship, not for some harsh lesson to learn. You see a game as the best place to use your good personality, while I don't. So when I realized that it is 3 years ahead of flying the ship I like and one can NEVER have a revenge to the sixth-graders, I blame CCP rather than quited players--to newbies it is simply not 15 dollar per month worth entertainment.

Actually I personally, as a player, can go with the skill stuff, I quited more because the game has too many broken stuff to be merely called finished. As somewhat a designer myself, I will be very shamed to sell these crap UI and flawed system to the customer, and I see skill system as one big money disperser too, that's why I reply here.

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.05 14:49:00 - [245]
 

Respecs only make sense to me in games with a fixed skill point allocation, e.g. WoW.

If you train as a miner in Eve, and then decide to train as a missioner, or researcher for example, your mining skills have not become useless, nor are they stopping you from training something else. You're simply not using them right now.

Tradeoffs and choices are a key part of gaming, and life in general. Do I go left or right in this FPS level? Do I bring my exploding cherries or walnuts in this Plants Vs. Zombies level? Do I train to fly a freighter, or a stealth bomber in Eve? I have to make a choice which to prioritise. If I could respec I wouldn't have to make these choices or tradeoffs. I could just throw my SPs into one skill, and bump up it's relevant attributes to maximise training time. Then later I could put those SPs into whatever I feel like at the time.

No having to make difficult choices. No having to live with your choices. That smacks of easy mode to me, and I don't play Eve to have no choices or challenges. And I say again it's unnecessary given you can can switch your training any time, and once more - you don't need to have skills at a high level to enjoy Eve.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.05 15:41:00 - [246]
 

Originally by: Toovhon
... where your parents made sure little Humpink ...


Little Humpink is far too impressed with wealth to have actually grown up with it.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.05 15:44:00 - [247]
 

Originally by: Humpink Omaristos

The flaw in EVE is that skillpoints can not be gained through effort.


This is not a flaw in Eve. It is one of the selling points of Eve. It is also one of the selling points of Dust according to one of the blurbs. It's a flaw to you because you can't use your welfare check to pay for SPs.

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.05 15:59:00 - [248]
 

Originally by: Evenus Battuta
Edited by: Evenus Battuta on 05/07/2011 14:40:56
Originally by: Toovhon
I'm inclined to believe this is a mental issue of your own making


well you don't really need to worry about me that much or try that hard to argue with me. The game didn't bother me that much: I subbed and moved on, just enjoying some last whine while dying out.

I understand your point: although there are many unplesant in the game, you chose to overcome(or enjoy) it with your patience and optimism etc. That's good personality of you you r a life enjoyer, and I chose to simply unsub. It is not saying that I don't have the good personality as you do, it is just I don't see the point of using my patience and optimism in a video game. I pay CCP, not the opposite; and I pay for some simple entertainment of flying spaceship, not for some harsh lesson to learn. You see a game as the best place to use your good personality, while I don't. So when I realized that it is 3 years ahead of flying the ship I like and one can NEVER have a revenge to the sixth-graders, I blame CCP rather than quited players--to newbies it is simply not 15 dollar per month worth entertainment.


Well I still think you're overlooking an awful lot of fun that can be had with lower level ships. It's not just an optimistic attitude on my part. Truth be told I'm actually quite a cynical person! :-D Certainly I was highly critical and downcast about CCP during the recent protests over MT and Incarna's shoddiness and focus on fluff and new features over fixing and improving current features.

But anyway - some of the best fun I've had in Eve was flying the smallest ships. Big ships in big fleets are not actually that exciting most of the time. Seriously. Small gang roams in smaller ships have been some of the most heart pounding frenetic fun I've ever had in Eve :-)

Quote:
Actually I personally, as a player, can go with the skill stuff, I quited more because the game has too many broken stuff to be merely called finished. As somewhat a designer myself, I will be very shamed to sell these crap UI and flawed system to the customer, and I see skill system as one big money disperser too, that's why I reply here.


I agree 100% about CCP's general crappiness when it comes to buggy code, testing, listening to testers, and feature and commitment ADHD. I myself am taking a break when my current sub runs out in about 40 days as protest against this, as well as recent attitudes towards customers that were revealed in leaks leading up to the riots.

I am pleased by the results of the recent emergency CSM summit, but I'd like to see some action from CCP before I start trusting them again.

I also admit a break from Eve is a great excuse to play some of the other games that have piled up unplayed while my MMO addiction runs rampant :-) Not to mention some RL projects that have gone neglected too for long, heh.

Anyway, go well and I hope you find an MMO that better suits you! (Did Jumpgate 2 ever come out...?)

pyth3
Posted - 2011.07.05 16:57:00 - [249]
 

TROLOLOLOLOL

Humpink Omaristos
Posted - 2011.07.05 18:23:00 - [250]
 

Originally by: Zephy Russ
This is what we'd face here.

"What's that? You haven't ground to level 5 in amarr supercarrier yet? You haven't maxed out all your skills? You're useless, p1ss off!"
Not sure what game you are playing but if you are talking 0.0 alliances that's what is largely already happening. If you can't fly/fit a fleet fit BS then you are in many cases not allowed to join. Less than 10/15/20/25 mil SP? Nope, sorry go back to Empire noob!

Unless you never leave Empire you will run into discrimination based on skillpoints all over. Don't make me link recruitment threads to illustrate the point, just have a look at it yourself.

Originally by: Toovhon
Indeed. Also for the umpteenth time I point out that one of the great things about Eve is that even a very new player in a low level ship can be useful as part of a team (e.g. scouts, tacklers, haulers), or solo. It is not necessary to be flying an [insert very high level ship and fit here]. In most roles it's not even desirable!
The bottom line is that it should be up to the player to decide which ship he or she finds necessary or desirable to fly, preferably without having to wait a couple of years to do so.

Originally by: Ranka Mei
And, btw, what do you think vets are? There have all been noobs too, at some point. And yet they didn't run away either, did they? So, if you mean that EVE is not for the instant-gratification crowd that wants to play in the major league TODAY, then you're right: it isn't.
The thing to consider is that it isn't 2003 anymore. Back in the day there was very little true competition for good games. Today things are vastly different. NDP released their 2011 gaming report stating that over 40% of all game purchases were made from mobile devices. The gaming population is extremely fractured between PC, consoles, and mobile devices. In addition people tend to simply have less time. In 2007 CCP released some stats saying the average age of the EVE player was 27 years old. That's working adults, people who have to think about how to spend their very limited entertainment time to their maximum entertainment benefit (those selfish bastards!!!). When looking at it from that perspective then EVE is simply not a good choice. While some vets may have their head in the sand CCP is well aware that EVE holds very little appeal to the casual gamer. Selling SP for cash in some controlled fashion would raise the appeal and the profits.


Humpink Omaristos
Posted - 2011.07.05 18:25:00 - [251]
 

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Humpink Omaristos

The flaw in EVE is that skillpoints can not be gained through effort.


This is not a flaw in Eve. It is one of the selling points of Eve. It is also one of the selling points of Dust according to one of the blurbs.

Not sure want blurbs you are reading but DUST will be 100% MT based. Want a better gun or better ammo? Pay for it.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.05 18:33:00 - [252]
 

Originally by: Humpink Omaristos
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Humpink Omaristos

The flaw in EVE is that skillpoints can not be gained through effort.


This is not a flaw in Eve. It is one of the selling points of Eve. It is also one of the selling points of Dust according to one of the blurbs.

Not sure want blurbs you are reading but DUST will be 100% MT based. Want a better gun or better ammo? Pay for it.


Blurbs such as the ones you ignore. You do have this habit of ignoring whatever it is you do not like.

http://us.playstation.com/games-and-media/games/dust-514-ps3.html?amp

"Fight, die, and develop your skills to become the character you want to be. Use skill points you earn both as you play, and when you're offline, to advance and develop your skills. Learn to use specialized gear or enhance your ability to modify and upgrade existing gear for that extra edge on the battlefield."

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.05 19:11:00 - [253]
 

Originally by: Humpink Omaristos
Originally by: Zephy Russ
This is what we'd face here.

"What's that? You haven't ground to level 5 in amarr supercarrier yet? You haven't maxed out all your skills? You're useless, p1ss off!"
Not sure what game you are playing but if you are talking 0.0 alliances that's what is largely already happening. If you can't fly/fit a fleet fit BS then you are in many cases not allowed to join. Less than 10/15/20/25 mil SP? Nope, sorry go back to Empire noob!

Unless you never leave Empire you will run into discrimination based on skillpoints all over. Don't make me link recruitment threads to illustrate the point, just have a look at it yourself.


First of all I wouldn't want a new player in a serious 0.0 fleet fighting over sov. Even if they could easy cheat mode their way into a decently fit BS right off the bat, I doubt they could fly it for more than five minutes without it turning into a pretty ball of plasma, and/or ****ing off the FC by not knowing WTF to do.

Secondly once again you treat anything that isn't 0.0 fleet warfare in big ships as some kind of lesser activity lacking fun. Not IME. Not in most player's experiences. I repeat - I've had some of my best moments in Eve in small fleets of frigate to BC size ships in lowsec, highsec and WH space. My times in 0.0 by contrast have not been as exciting, so far. If you really think massive fleet warfare is some kind of crazy nonstop joyride... well, I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this, but by and large it isn't for most pilots involved. It's enjoyable, yes. But hardly edge of the seat like the small gang warfare I've taken part in.

Thirdly - if you're not having fun yet, it's no one's fault but yourself. You can try and blame it on not being a big ship in big fleets, but sorry - that's not really why. See my earlier posts in this thread for more on that subject.

Quote:
Originally by: Toovhon
Indeed. Also for the umpteenth time I point out that one of the great things about Eve is that even a very new player in a low level ship can be useful as part of a team (e.g. scouts, tacklers, haulers), or solo. It is not necessary to be flying an [insert very high level ship and fit here]. In most roles it's not even desirable!
The bottom line is that it should be up to the player to decide which ship he or she finds necessary or desirable to fly, preferably without having to wait a couple of years to do so.


Once more with the dismissive attitude towards ships and activities requiring less SPs, and the bizarre idea that letting every noob immediately fly BSes and caps is going to work out well. If nothing else instant gratification in MMOs works against the very idea behind MMOs - the whole point of progression is to give players something to always work towards. Without goals and rewards over time, MMOs die a quick death as players burn through everything in a flash, then leave bored.

This is not a game that lasts two days and then you've done it all. It's a game where you can play two years and still not have scratched the surface - which is as it should be. *sighs* You really don't get what an MMO is, do you?

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.05 19:36:00 - [254]
 

Originally by: Humpink Omaristos
Originally by: Ranka Mei
And, btw, what do you think vets are? There have all been noobs too, at some point. And yet they didn't run away either, did they? So, if you mean that EVE is not for the instant-gratification crowd that wants to play in the major league TODAY, then you're right: it isn't.
The thing to consider is that it isn't 2003 anymore. Back in the day there was very little true competition for good games. Today things are vastly different. NDP released their 2011 gaming report stating that over 40% of all game purchases were made from mobile devices. The gaming population is extremely fractured between PC, consoles, and mobile devices. In addition people tend to simply have less time. In 2007 CCP released some stats saying the average age of the EVE player was 27 years old. That's working adults, people who have to think about how to spend their very limited entertainment time to their maximum entertainment benefit (those selfish bastards!!!). When looking at it from that perspective then EVE is simply not a good choice. While some vets may have their head in the sand CCP is well aware that EVE holds very little appeal to the casual gamer. Selling SP for cash in some controlled fashion would raise the appeal and the profits.



If "EVE holds very little appeal to the casual gamer" then WTF are you still doing here? Despite it being spelt out to you by CCP just a few days ago in the devblog on the recent summit, you still seem to think they're going to start selling non-vanity stuff like SPs in Eve. I'm sorry, but it's beginning to come across as a rather pathetic delusion at this point.

The playerbase is against your absurd game-breaking ideas. CCP is against them. CSM is against it. Simple logic dictates your ideas are utterly wrong for a game like Eve. But nothing seems to register for you. What exactly would it take for sense to register for you?

Because so far you've tried to portray the vast anti-MT majority in Eve as a minority (LMAO), CSM as irrelevant (who do you think elected them and made clear what issues matter to them? :-D Well??), and you speak like you think you know what CCP really believes, even when your words fly directly in the face of what CCP has said multiple times, most recently under great pressure from a very annoyed playerbase, an exasperated and more than a little frustrated CSM, a PR disaster, and a stream of unflattering media coverage.

But still - none of it registers for you...

You're either a super annoying troll, or seriously in need of therapy. Because you sir are badly, badly out of touch with reality.

Baaldor
Black Sail Anarchists
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2011.07.05 20:17:00 - [255]
 

Originally by: Toovhon

First of all I wouldn't want a new player in a serious 0.0 fleet fighting over sov. Even if they could easy cheat mode their way into a decently fit BS right off the bat, I doubt they could fly it for more than five minutes without it turning into a pretty ball of plasma, and/or ****ing off the FC by not knowing WTF to do.





Noob, frigate, point, mwd.....fcking hero.

You do not need to be in a BS to be of use to a fleet or gang. All you need to do is listen, and learn by doing.




Durin Sarga
Posted - 2011.07.05 20:59:00 - [256]
 

CCP Tagline: EVE is REAL

Q: What is real about instantly being good at whatever you want to learn?

A: Nothing

In real life things take time to learn, and become good at. I can't instantly buy ZOMG brilliance at Astrophysics. It takes years of study(learning/training), hard work, and research.

So if CCP wants EVE to be real, training time stays.

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.06 07:51:00 - [257]
 

Originally by: Baaldor
Originally by: Toovhon

First of all I wouldn't want a new player in a serious 0.0 fleet fighting over sov. Even if they could easy cheat mode their way into a decently fit BS right off the bat, I doubt they could fly it for more than five minutes without it turning into a pretty ball of plasma, and/or ****ing off the FC by not knowing WTF to do.





Noob, frigate, point, mwd.....fcking hero.

You do not need to be in a BS to be of use to a fleet or gang. All you need to do is listen, and learn by doing.






Indeed. The most useful experience of my first month in Eve was being taken under my first CEO's wing and given some guidance on how to handle myself in a fleet, and common firefights, so I didn't !@#$ up too badly once real ops began.

And as Baaldor says - give a noob a tackling frigate, some decent instruction, and they've all the potential to be the hero of an encounter. Young players in cheap ships can and do make a difference :-)

Marabel Naari
Posted - 2011.07.06 11:44:00 - [258]
 

Originally by: Toovhon

Cry me a river you can't do XYZ high level thing in Eve yet. Diddums. You've still an entire sandbox of options, the vast majority of which are open to anyone with a couple months training time under their belts. If that's too hard for you, then you need to either harden the !@#$ up, or !@#$ off. Stop !@#$ing whinging here.



I've never understood this argument. Perhaps you don't realize it but it implies that EVE isn't hard at all. It just takes a long time. Just because something takes a long time doesn't make it hard.

This is a point I've seen people argue in every MMO I've played. In this case its quite amusing because to consider training SP in this game to be "hard" is laughable.

Milamara
Posted - 2011.07.06 17:48:00 - [259]
 

I have been keeping an eye on this thread and it's amusing to see how various folks are trying to insult the OP and he just doesn't take the bait and instead sticks to his message. For a forum warrior that's pretty unusual as they tend to be easy to set off. lol

Originally by: Mei Serine
In a nutshell; the massive difference between PLEX for ISK and then ISK for characters/in-game items and PLEX for items or skillpoints is injection.

I hope that explains why [the] idea, while theoretically fine, is fundamentally game breaking.


I have been playing the game since the day the first retail copy made it onto the store shelves. I am currently down to four accounts with the lowest character at 71mil and the highest at 119mil. I would appreciate being able to buy SP because while I don't need a Titan pilot I could use a few more JF alts and a few skilled covert cyno alts. I would probably buy a couple more trade alts as well. I don't have enough room on my existing accounts so I would likely pay for 2 more accounts to hold those characters. Yes, I can buy characters on the bazaar, and I have already done that on numerous occasions. My issue with the bazaar is that I don't want to pay for skills I don't need. Call me frugal. It's not that I can't afford the asking price, it's that it just rubs me the wrong way to pay a couple bil extra for something I will never ever use. I can't stand that.

The injection argument is valid. Selling limitless SP would break the game for sure, but I don't see how limited controlled SP sales would break the game. The EVE economy has already shown that it can survive controlled injection just fine. Invention is that controlled injection and it didn't break the game. All Invention did is lower my profits and I was sore about that but I dealt with it. I can see how some people will be sore that others just buy SP, but just the same they will deal with their emotional issues and move on. The game will be fine.

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.06 17:59:00 - [260]
 

Originally by: Marabel Naari
Originally by: Toovhon

Cry me a river you can't do XYZ high level thing in Eve yet. Diddums. You've still an entire sandbox of options, the vast majority of which are open to anyone with a couple months training time under their belts. If that's too hard for you, then you need to either harden the !@#$ up, or !@#$ off. Stop !@#$ing whinging here.



I've never understood this argument. Perhaps you don't realize it but it implies that EVE isn't hard at all. It just takes a long time. Just because something takes a long time doesn't make it hard.

This is a point I've seen people argue in every MMO I've played. In this case its quite amusing because to consider training SP in this game to be "hard" is laughable.


Good job ignoring how MMOs work with progression and keeping players interested and inspired to play by slowly unlocking new content and kit. Don't worry - nobody noticed you skipping over this. I promise. Giant flaw in your argument: unnoticed. Totally.

Also - if waiting isn't hard, why can't you?

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.06 18:05:00 - [261]
 

Edited by: Toovhon on 06/07/2011 22:35:09
Originally by: Milamara
I have been keeping an eye on this thread and it's amusing to see how various folks are trying to insult the OP and he just doesn't take the bait and instead sticks to his message. For a forum warrior that's pretty unusual as they tend to be easy to set off. lol


Yes, I was also impressed how the OP totally rejected all sense time after time. Way to go OP! You're a winner (only not in logic and reason it seems...).

Quote:
Originally by: Mei Serine
In a nutshell; the massive difference between PLEX for ISK and then ISK for characters/in-game items and PLEX for items or skillpoints is injection.

I hope that explains why [the] idea, while theoretically fine, is fundamentally game breaking.


I have been playing the game since the day the first retail copy made it onto the store shelves.


Then why don't you undersand how MMOs work after all these years? Hint: it has to do with keeping players interested.

Your case where apparently you have to keep buying character after character and gosh darn it, isn't that a hassle, is a bit out of the ordinary, to say the least. I'm not sure what you're doing, but perhaps you're in the wrong corp (or game *gestures at SP games over there*) if you're having to do everything yourself.

Milamara
Posted - 2011.07.06 18:23:00 - [262]
 

Originally by: Toovhon
Then why don't you undersand how MMOs work after all these years? Hint: it has to do with keeping players interested.
I really do understand how MMOs work. I just think that EVE is totally unlike other MMOs. For example, in WoW once you hit the level cap there is nothing else to do. You are limited to raiding the same zone over and over to eventually receive marginally better gear. In EVE reaching the skillpoint cap does not result in the same outcome. The way I see it is that in EVE the relationship is inverse to that in WoW. In WoW the higher your level is the less content is available to you because you cannot go back and have a meaningful low level experience. In EVE you can easily fly that Rifter even if you have 600mil SP. WoW -> more skillpoints = fewer options. EVE -> more skillpoints = more options.

There is no harm in having high SP. I believe that people will be more likely to play the game and stick with the game if more content is available to them earlier.

Originally by: Toovhon
Your case where apparently you have to keep buying character after character and gosh darn it, isn't that a hassle, is a bit out of the ordinary, to say the least. I'm not sure what you're doing, but perhaps you're in the wrong corp (or game *gestures at SP games over there) if you're having to do everything yourself.
I agree that my case is not the norm.
I want to be self-sufficient and I want to keep making that ISK. To me EVE isn't as much about PvP as it is to see really big ISK numbers. It's about making profit where everyone else said that it can't be done or that it is too complicated. It's about being able to just pay for an outpost when my corp is considering to build one but is unsure how to pay for it or being able to reliably run the alliance ship replacement program or any other number of logistics tasks that need to be done. I make a lot of ISK and I also spend a lot of it on things that don't necessarily benefit me personally. Being able to do that is what EVE is about to me it is were I get my kicks and fun.

I could easily get help hauling or with cynos or even with trades, but I don't want that help, I want to put in the effort and do it myself. I never had anything handed to me in game. I paid for my T2 BPOs instead of winning them and I never bought a PLEX for RL cash. I know how to make ISK and if SP sales would come through I would buy PLEX with ISK and apply those to get AUR to buy SP.

The reason I posted here is to point out that there are people other than "spoiled brats with daddy's credit card" who would have reasons to buy SP for cash if that option were to exist.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.06 18:47:00 - [263]
 

Originally by: Milamara
I have been keeping an eye on this thread and it's amusing to see how various folks are trying to insult the OP and he just doesn't take the bait and instead sticks to his message. For a forum warrior that's pretty unusual as they tend to be easy to set off. lol



Then you've not been reading very carefully, or you are reading selectively, and you vote for the proposal, so we can draw our own conclusions.

Baaldor
Black Sail Anarchists
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2011.07.06 18:51:00 - [264]
 

Edited by: Baaldor on 06/07/2011 19:21:54
Edited by: Baaldor on 06/07/2011 18:51:30
Originally by: Milamara

The reason I posted here is to point out that there are people other than "spoiled brats with daddy's credit card" who would have reasons to buy SP for cash if that option were to exist.


It would still be an unfair advantage between the have and have nots. Think of that poor bastard that can barely pay for condoms.

But yeah, it is unbalanced, it directly affects the game, it becomes a race to see who can get something faster better etc etc. And you still have no fcking clue how to play the game.

Most peeps who buy characters to avoid the progression of the game, don't know **** about how to play the game, and then later rage quit because they get pwned by someone with half the SP, but twice the game experience.

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.06 22:41:00 - [265]
 

Originally by: Milamara
Originally by: Toovhon
Then why don't you undersand how MMOs work after all these years? Hint: it has to do with keeping players interested.
I really do understand how MMOs work. I just think that EVE is totally unlike other MMOs. For example, in WoW once you hit the level cap there is nothing else to do. You are limited to raiding the same zone over and over to eventually receive marginally better gear. In EVE reaching the skillpoint cap does not result in the same outcome. The way I see it is that in EVE the relationship is inverse to that in WoW. In WoW the higher your level is the less content is available to you because you cannot go back and have a meaningful low level experience. In EVE you can easily fly that Rifter even if you have 600mil SP. WoW -> more skillpoints = fewer options. EVE -> more skillpoints = more options.

There is no harm in having high SP. I believe that people will be more likely to play the game and stick with the game if more content is available to them earlier.


You say you know how MMOs work, but then you go right ahead and suggest giving players access to anything right off the bat is fine. So I don't think you really do know how MMOs work.

If you really think there's such limited content in Eve for new players, then I have to say I think we're playing two vastly different games. As a new player I could have done something different every day of the week. I didn't need high level skills for that.

Kyle Sucks
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2011.07.06 23:06:00 - [266]
 

The only reason I as a player tolerate PLEX sales is because in the end I am able to pay for my game with ISK. Introducing a new SP faucet, subject to some fortunate individuals' income (which I don't care how they obtained, or how much time they spent obtaining), letting them rapidly build super characters in a spaceship game where I and many of my fellow pilots feel "spaceship skill" and long-term decisions should be key elements in building your ingame persona, would ruin something important in the rules of the game for us. Many have spent 6, 7, 8+ years meticulously plotting their training paths, adapting to changes and events. What you have or are willing to do IRL is irrelevant to me.

I would rather see PLEX and character sales removed, than direct SP purchasing introduced. I would even like to see new proposals for SP accumulation that might solve the lack of interesting or useful stuff for vets to train. And most importantly, I would rather stick to the status-quo than move in your direction.

I fully support giving nubs more SP to start though; It used to be 100K, then it was 900K to help noobs catch up, and now it's 50K, which is complete bull.

Chartle
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.07 02:27:00 - [267]
 

Originally by: Humpink Omaristos
Right now the most limiting factor, other than the learning curve, for a new player to enter EVE is the fixed rate at which skillpoints can be acquired. Even someone who wants to just go out and tackle in a T1 frig still needs to put a few days of training into it before they can do out and do that.

New characters really should start with all skillpoints required to fly and fit a T1 tackler, but that's a different topic altogether.

CCP should sell skillpoints for RL cash!

As a rough estimate one can acquire 12 million skillpoints per year. So go ahead CCP and sell 1 million skillpoints for $15, or 1 million skillpoints for one PLEX.

This shouldn't jade the bitter vets any further since they didn't "work" for their skillpoints either, they merely paid for them and waited for the training to be completed. New players will have the option to skip the wait by paying up, or just pay monthly and wait.


My experience was not that skill points were a limiting factor at all. However if that is true for new players then selling SP is not an answer. Fixing the game mechanics that keep them interested is the answer. One thing I noted as I began playing Eve was that time at the keyboard had zero effect on my game progression other than earning ISK. I also noted there was an extreme amount of repetitive grinding. And that everyone was trying to kill me.

CPP should consider creating a 'Playpen' inside the sidebox. An area that new players can compete against themselves without interference. Once their SP and accomplishments reach a certain level they are removed from the Playpen. This area should have lots of 'kids toys' such as competitions for battle, industry etc. SP accrues but can not be used until they 'graduate' from the Playpen. Once they are out in the real Eve world they can now spend their SP on the path they decided on. One reward in the Playpen could be ISK another could be SP for winning competitions. The Playpen should of course be named something more user friendly like 'Eve School' or 'New Eden University'.

People quit any game because they feel they are losing. In real life we are losing all the time so we GO TO GAMES to escape that. To find a place where we can WIN. In Eve it is very hard to win anything and keep it for the first year. I often feel like I'm playing against every single player in Eve except my corporation and playing against CPP. Right now my home Tew is having its second incursion in a month. I don't have the skills to play in the incursion which means I have to leave the system until its over if I want to do anything meaningful in Eve. I will lose about 200m ISK just like I did the last incursion last month. Partly because of my own choices. I will likely log on for just an hour a day to maintain the basics of my personal economy. Maybe log on for a couple of hours to mine at my backup base. Get bored, curse my luck for having picked a system that sufferes an incurion a month and wonder if I really want to play this game after all. As a note I'll be playing a lot more WoW this week until the incursion is over. I have no interest in buying Plex I pay for my subscription annually. I want to 'WIN' Eve by at least feeling that I am progressing. If that feeling goes away then I'll quit playing and won't renew my subscription. It's that simple. And though I wouldn't bat an eye at paying out $10,000 US for anything it must meet one criteria - value. For a game (value = fun), fullfilment, escape AN EVEN PLAYING FIELD. If I can just buy my SP like anyone else and it gave me game satisfation I would. But as I've found buying your way to the middle or top gives zero satisfaction. You are left with "Whats next?". I believe CPP's challenge is to provide that 'whats next' from day one until they want to go out of business. Selling SP is not a solution. Playable content for ALL the players is the solution.

Humpink Omaristos
Posted - 2011.07.07 03:18:00 - [268]
 

Originally by: Kyle Sucks
long-term decisions should be key elements in building your ingame persona, would ruin something important in the rules of the game for us. Many have spent 6, 7, 8+ years meticulously plotting their training paths
The older a game becomes, any game, the less relevant long term decisions become. EVE will not be around in 6 years, counting on being able to do something after learning skills for 6 years from today is misguided.

Before you go all ape on my saying that EVE will not be around in 6 years, look at the current vets, many are jaded to a degree that they only play EVE on the forums anymore. Anyone who has spent any amount of time shooting at sov structures pre and post Dominion knows that basically sov is irrelevant. Sov is merely a proxy for purpose except that there is no purpose. It doesn't matter whether you hold or lose sov, that has no bearing on the actual goal of the game which is to provide entertainment value. More an more people whine that there is no PvP to be had outside of blobs either. Yadda yadda yadda, the bottom line is that EVE absolutely needs new players and lots of them.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.07.07 03:56:00 - [269]
 

Originally by: Humpink Omaristos
Even someone who wants to just go out and tackle in a T1 frig still needs to put a few days of training into it before they can do out and do that.


A few hours, you mean? Or minutes - T1 frigate, propulsion jamming -> tackle frigate. After that they can train a few weeks to keep getting better at doing that same thing. Level 5 in frigate, propulsion jamming, engineering, electronics, mechanic, hull upgrades, energy management, etc: these support skills will make them better tacklers but they won't add more ability to activate a warp scrambler or disruptor (just the ability to do so more efficiently/longer).

Originally by: Humpink Omaristos
CCP should sell skillpoints for RL cash!


Why sell SP for cash directly?

I would like to see items sold through NeX being ingredients or BPCs, not the final items. This way every MT purchase benefits a greater number of players and improves the game for everyone.

Why not tie in SP gains with a new booster type. The booster requires certain ingredients only sold through the NeX (thus providing the real money sink). The booster needs certain materials (nullsec, w-space gases), and a hefty production chain.

Different grades of booster will increase your SP gains by 50% to 200% for a period of time (such as 30 days), then hit you with a drawback of e.g.: 25% SP ******ation for another month. Having a decent drawback means the users will be tempted to use more/better boosters, or just accept that they got to their goal of Minmatar Frigate 5 and Assault Ships 4 so they can now fly that Jaguar they've been lusting after, a month early, but get slower SP gain for another month.

So for one game mechanic we've introduced a NeX component, industry components, targets for military action (the production chain such as reactors in POSes), targets for vigilante action (boosters are contraband), and something to do off-grid in stations.

Selling SP for cash directly would only provide benefits to one pilot.

Danillo X
Posted - 2011.07.07 11:33:00 - [270]
 

Having played this game for 4 years and being able to fly most ships I took a break and have started with a new toon. Now I can see from a new players perspective that 50k SP and 5,000 ISK in the bank isn't very much of an incentive to carry on playing and the thought of taking another year before i can fly a ship proficiently is a long term investment. Personally I quite like eve but for the newcomer they don't know what eve has to offer in the long term so they wont stick around. Luckily I have pals that will help me get back up and running otherwise it would be a long hard slog and I doubt I would want to do that on my own.

I think new players should at least start with a few more mil to get going. Maybe a training boost for the first year just so they can ENJOY the game abit more, as we all want more people to shoot right? ;)


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