open All Channels
seplocked Assembly Hall
blankseplocked It's time for CCP to sell skillpoints for RL cash!
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: first : previous : ... 3 4 5 6 7 [8] 9 10 11 : last (11)

Author Topic

Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.07.04 19:14:00 - [211]
 

Originally by: Humpink Omaristos
Let me preface what I am about to say with that I didn't say that vets vs noobs is unbalanced, someone else did, however;
Originally by: Ranka Mei
Vets with more SP than noobs is as 'unbalanced' as a six-grader being further ahead than a first-grader: in other words, not unbalanced at all.

All y'all fail at Economy 101, really.

Honestly, you fail at analogies, for the second time and all on page 7. Comparing vets and noobs to sixth-graders and first-graders makes no sense at all because unlike EVE players they are not limited to being stuck on the same playground.

Originally by: Explosivesonhand
This whole thing about a small, vocal minority of players not liking micro-transactions is absolute rubbish. It's absolutely true that most players don't participate in the forums, the same as most players don't participate in the CSM. But hardly anyone wants to see micro-transactions that allow real money to be a substitute for effort and time in the game.

So your argument is that because a small number of players compared to the overall number of players spoke up against MT it's clear that "hardly anyone" is in support? My argument is that those who were opposed spoke up, the rest didn't care one way or another or are in favor. If a person isn't happy with something, a service, a purchase, whatever, they speak up. They don't continue to pay a company for a service if they don't agree with the way it is performed. I have logic and reality on my side, what do you have?

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
Hell no...

I could probably support an improved SP acquisition for newbies to a degree, but certainly nothing beyond cutting off the difficulty of the first 6 months. And certainly not for older players.

Thanks for being the first CSM to actually post here. Kudos for that.
However, CSM action on this issue isn't required, nor would CSM action either in support or in opposition have any effect on CCP's decision to implement this feature, or any other feature.

I realize that you are spending your time on what you perceive to be the betterment of EVE, and for that I notion I do thank you. I'll leave it at that because this isn't the place to discuss the value of the CSM as a whole.


lollll you're a ****ing idiot

CCP isn't implementing this game breaking nonsense, get real

Jiix Zix
Erasers inc.
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2011.07.04 21:55:00 - [212]
 

sage

Nikita Keriget
Posted - 2011.07.04 22:25:00 - [213]
 

Originally by: Riley Moore



*HARVEST BRAIN*
- Biomasses a character and making half of the SP availible to your other characters.


This way no SP is created out of thin air.


For example:

I buy a 120million SP character, I harvest his brain and the character is destroyed. I then get 60m sp to distribute on my other characters on that account.


Brilliant. Because of the 50% conversion rate it avoids FOTM remapping concerns. Instead of hurting the character bazaar is will actually increase demand. No SP inflation, in fact it reduces the outstanding amount. People get to maintain attachment to their character. I would love this.

Zephy Russ
Posted - 2011.07.05 01:57:00 - [214]
 

That makes even less sense... The number of old characters on the bazaar would decline completely as they are all harvested for their SP.

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.05 04:46:00 - [215]
 

Edited by: Toovhon on 05/07/2011 04:48:20
Originally by: Humpink Omaristos
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
Hell no...

I could probably support an improved SP acquisition for newbies to a degree, but certainly nothing beyond cutting off the difficulty of the first 6 months. And certainly not for older players.

Thanks for being the first CSM to actually post here. Kudos for that.
However, CSM action on this issue isn't required, nor would CSM action either in support or in opposition have any effect on CCP's decision to implement this feature, or any other feature.

I realize that you are spending your time on what you perceive to be the betterment of EVE, and for that I notion I do thank you. I'll leave it at that because this isn't the place to discuss the value of the CSM as a whole.


OMG you're so arrogant. You don't care what the playerbase thinks, you don't care there were massive protests against MT recently, you don't care CCP acknowledges themselves MT for non-vanity items would be harmful to Eve, you don't care about simple economics, and to top it all off you treat CSM Meissa Anunthiel in the most arrogant condescending manner possible...

You're so arrogant it's incredible *laughs in disbelief* How does someone get this arrogant and self entitled? Do you even comprehend you're revoltingly arrogant?

Humpink Omaristos
Posted - 2011.07.05 05:42:00 - [216]
 

Originally by: Toovhon
you don't care there were massive protests against MT recently
Oh yeah, sorry I forgot that instead of 1,200 players in Jita on a normal day there were 2,000 players total, some of which were protesting against MT, yet MT has been implemented and it's here to stay, unlike the protests which fizzled as soon as it wasn't fashionable to shoot the monument anymore. So yes, you are right, I don't care that some people are opposed to MT, which is the same attitude you have for not caring about the people who are in support of MT. Got anything other than that to hit me with?

Originally by: Toovhon
you don't care CCP acknowledges themselves MT for non-vanity items would be harmful to Eve
CCP has merely said that they will not sell items that give you an unfair advantage in the NeX store. The fact that CCP is selling PLEX already proves that CCP doesn't consider spending RL cash on in-game currency which is then used to purchase characters as an unfair advantage. Do you know why that is? Because for every 20 bil character that was bought with PLEX CCP made $900 in cold hard cash, twice! Once for the original subscription to get the character to the SP and once from the guy who bought 60 PLEXes to pay for it.

In addition this thread isn't about in-game items like ships, ammo, bpos, etc., it's about skillpoints and someone who obtains skillpoints via cash (which is already possible today) does not have an unfair advantage over someone who's been gaining skillpoints at a normal rate.

Originally by: Toovhon
you don't care about simple economics
Simple economics are that according to the QEN Q4 2010 PLEX is the item with the highest trade value on any given day and the trade volume of PLEX is growing constantly. Let me put it into simpler terms for you; Lots of people want to dump money into EVE, and CCP wants that money. Those are some pretty simple economics and I do care about them.

Originally by: Toovhon
and to top it all off you treat CSM Meissa Anunthiel in the most arrogant condescending manner possible...

What I did do is thank Meissa for his service even though it is meaningless. That the CSM is irrelevant isn't Meissa's fault. The CSM is a marketing tool to manipulate customers into believing that they have a stake in what decisions are made but the reality is that CCP does what CCP wants to do, whether the CSM agrees or not.

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.05 06:15:00 - [217]
 

Edited by: Toovhon on 05/07/2011 06:34:57
Quote:
Originally by: Humpink Omaristos
Originally by: Toovhon
you don't care there were massive protests against MT recently
Oh yeah, sorry I forgot that instead of 1,200 players in Jita on a normal day there were 2,000 players total, some of which were protesting against MT, yet MT has been implemented and it's here to stay, unlike the protests which fizzled as soon as it wasn't fashionable to shoot the monument anymore. So yes, you are right, I don't care that some people are opposed to MT, which is the same attitude you have for not caring about the people who are in support of MT. Got anything other than that to hit me with?



So you ignore that the protests were against NON-VANITY MT being even considered by CCP? Do you think anyone here missed your lame attempt to try and ignore that?

Quote:
Originally by: Toovhon
you don't care CCP acknowledges themselves MT for non-vanity items would be harmful to Eve
CCP has merely said that they will not sell items that give you an unfair advantage in the NeX store. The fact that CCP is selling PLEX already proves that CCP doesn't consider spending RL cash on in-game currency which is then used to purchase characters as an unfair advantage. Do you know why that is? Because for every 20 bil character that was bought with PLEX CCP made $900 in cold hard cash, twice! Once for the original subscription to get the character to the SP and once from the guy who bought 60 PLEXes to pay for it.



If it isn't clear to you that people being able to buy their way to whatever high level skills they want is harmful to Eve, then you don't understand the whole point of games and why things are high level in the first place... *disbelief* Do you not understand what games are? The whole point of games? I'll give you a clue - it's about overcoming challenges and the reward that brings - not buying your way to everything with zero effort.

I have no idea what on earth you're trying to say about PLEX above, but the reason PLEX is not harmful to Eve is (and I repeat myself here as so many have you already you arrogant moron) a) PLEX required the original buyer to pay CCP with RL money, so CCP still gets paid for the sub, and b) PLEX bought in-game requires in-game player effort and time to earn.

Quote:
In addition this thread isn't about in-game items like ships, ammo, bpos, etc., it's about skillpoints and someone who obtains skillpoints via cash (which is already possible today) does not have an unfair advantage over someone who's been gaining skillpoints at a normal rate.



Uhhh... yes, they do. Duh. How exactly is buying your way to what others had to spent time and effort on not an unfair advantage????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? How? Please use logic and reason to explain why. Because no one here with any brains can work that one out... Not players, not CSM, not other notable players, not the press, not CCP.

Originally by: Toovhon
you don't care about simple economics
Simple economics are that according to the QEN Q4 2010 PLEX is the item with the highest trade value on any given day and the trade volume of PLEX is growing constantly. Let me put it into simpler terms for you; Lots of people want to dump money into EVE, and CCP wants that money. Those are some pretty simple economics and I do care about them.

Quote:
Originally by: Toovhon
and to top it all off you treat CSM Meissa Anunthiel in the most arrogant condescending manner possible...

What I did do is thank Meissa for his service even though it is meaningless. That the CSM is irrelevant isn't Meissa's fault. The CSM is a marketing tool to manipulate customers into believing that they have a stake in what decisions are made but the reality is that CCP does what CCP wants to do, whether the CSM agrees or not.



Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.05 06:21:00 - [218]
 

Let me lay out some mistaken assumptions that many of then proponents of this thread seem to have.

I am going to avoid quoting any specific response, as it seems some people on the thread have a penchant for going off topic into personal attacks or irrelevant arguments, so hopefully a generic response will avoid triggering any testosterone knee-jerk reactions.

Misconceptions:

1) A new player in EVE, you should be allowed to 'catch up' with vet players who have been playing a long time. This is sometimes called the 'rubber banding' AI cheat in racing games. The basic premise is that people (or AI cars) who fall far behind the leader gets game mechanic boosts, in order to level the playing field, allowing them to catch up.

- This is neither a desired feature, nor a necessary one in EVE.

not Desirable:
EVE is a complete economic sandbox. It tries to be a mirror to RL where it can. You don't get a boost when you start working at McDonald's because you started 3 years later. It would be unfair to the people who started 3 years earlier and are already managers. Best you should do is make some manager friends.

not Necessary:
Rich players or vet players are not competing with beginning players. They are not ratting in highsec or mining veldspar. They are busy building their empires, running their alliance, or strategizing about which null sec sector to move into. As you move up the corporate ladder, you do bigger and better things. Your life doesn't necessarily get easier, mind you. A beginner may not be able to match the skills of a vet, but skills don't mean everything. They only are important in a fair toe to toe fight. (and if you find yourself in one, you did something wrong) You can always outsmart or get the jump on someone with higher skills.

2) It's a just a vocal minority against MT etc etc...

- All the arguments in this bucket are irrelevant, as they point to either # people in Jita, number of users who actually read these forums etc etc.
Both sides are guilty of fallacy if you are making any argument based on this premise.

Instead think of it as a have-not's vs have's discussion. What this proposal amounts to, is a META-game method by which you can improve your game.
In the real world, this is called CORRUPTION. Using a friend of the family to get you that promotion, bribing politicians to get your bills passed... insider trading etc. (using means outside the boundaries of the system, in order gain an advantage in the system). Now, I have pointed out many times already that yes, these meta-game loopholes already exist, (in plex->isk) but a) why justify making another loophole? b) plex prices are at least governed by some other supply/demand factors. Selling SP for $ at a fixed rate is a level of magnitude worse as it is direct and at a fixed price.
having BOTH an ISK 'cheat' AND an SP 'cheat' is so detrimental to the game community, it should be obvious any rationally minded person.

3) What's the harm in this change? What if we did allow beginners to jump ahead in skill points... it will be good!

- for the myopic, yes. Sure, we all want more beginners to enjoy EVE, but you have to remember that any beginner only boost will either be grievously unfair to those who came before that did NOT have the option to speed up their learning, OR it will be used and abused by everyone. Just because it can be used for 'good' for noobs doesn't mean that isk rich players won't use it as well, and like an arms race, if you can fly that carrier before your enemies, then you win, so everyone (who can afford it) will start buying SP like pancakes on shrove Tuesday. Who loses? all the casual players who don't want to spend $50usd a month just to 'keep up'. Congratulations, that probably is mostly the BEGINNERS and noobs that this proposal was supposed to HELP.
You have effectively made 'game balance' a meta-game controlled contest going to whoever wants to spend the most USD. Bribery.

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.05 06:27:00 - [219]
 

Edited by: Toovhon on 05/07/2011 06:38:20
Edited by: Toovhon on 05/07/2011 06:35:41
Edited by: Toovhon on 05/07/2011 06:33:10

Continued...

LMAO - so you treat CSM with contempt, and it's all a conspiracy against players like you who if only allowed to buy your way into easy cheat mode, you'd be fulfilled and would have won against us nasty players who like to force effort and challenge onto you in games.

How tragic you're forced to play games that are competitive, with other players willing to abide by the rules and succeed. It must be awful to finally be in a situation where everybody doesn't automatically 'win', as with al past 'games' in your life where your parents made sure little Humpink was never exposed to challenge or the possibility of failure. It must be extremely disturbing to you to discover you actually have to work hard to achieve, and even then you may not succeed or be able to manage everything under the sun. How appalling you're now forced to realise you and life has limitations, and you can't do and be anything you want.

Really - I feel for you. It must be so horrible to deal with what games actually are. You poor, poor thing. It totally excuses your extreme arrogance, laziness, selfishness and condescension.


There there. There there.

Humpink Omaristos
Posted - 2011.07.05 06:51:00 - [220]
 

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Let me lay out some mistaken assumptions that many of then proponents of this thread seem to have.

Misconceptions:

1) A new player in EVE, you should be allowed to 'catch up' with vet players who have been playing a long time.
You have a misconception about the misconception. ;)
Perhaps others in this thread have but personally I am not advocating that a new player can catch up to any old player. The comment about cash allowing one to buy an advantage in my first post was merely to get the discussion going.

I do think that any player, new or old, should have the ability to create a new character which allows the player to experience a larger portion of the game from day 1.

Sorry to say that your analogy with RL employment fails, that's three for three on the analogy side. The comparison to McDonalds fails because skill training is completely passive, all vets had to do was pay and wait.

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
A beginner may not be able to match the skills of a vet, but skills don't mean everything. They only are important in a fair toe to toe fight. (and if you find yourself in one, you did something wrong) You can always outsmart or get the jump on someone with higher skills.
Skillpoints determine which parts of the game one can experience to what degree. New players, or alts, or younger existing players are denied access to aspects of the game simply because they, due to no fault of their own, haven't been playing the game for as long as others.

The flaw in EVE is that skillpoints can not be gained through effort. The rate at which they are gained is fairly constant within a range. In other MMOs you can progress faster if you put in more active playtime, in EVE you can not. This is by design but it's just to illustrate that players are powerless when it comes to gaining SP beyond the 2,400 SP/hr or whatever the max is.

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Instead think of it as a have-not's vs have's discussion. What this proposal amounts to, is a META-game method by which you can improve your game.
In the real world, this is called CORRUPTION.
Sorry, again the comparison just doesn't work because buying SP for cash is nothing like corruption IRL.

It's much more fitting to compare an EVE character to a nice 2,600 sqft house with a double wide detached garage and a pool in back. You can build the house on your own time, a few hours a day after work and on your days off, and it will take you a few years to get it done. Alternatively you can pay a contractor to build it for you and have it ready in just one summer. It's more expensive to have someone else build it but to the buyer that expense is worth it.

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Now, I have pointed out many times already that yes, these meta-game loopholes already exist, (in plex->isk) but a) why justify making another loophole?
It's not a loophole, it's an intended and highly profitable feature. It wasn't introduced by accident and it's not something that till be "fixed". It was created with purpose in mind to address the needs of the consumer. That's what businesses do, they find out what consumers want and then come up with ways to make that happen and make profit.

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Selling SP for $ at a fixed rate is a level of magnitude worse as it is direct and at a fixed price. having BOTH an ISK 'cheat' AND an SP 'cheat' is so detrimental to the game community, it should be obvious any rationally minded person.
Let's just give the proponents the benefit of a doubt and assume that they aren't all total ******s. I don't see how it would be detrimental. Yes there would be some emo rage but apart from that actual reasonable detriment still needs to be pointed out. It wouldn't be unfair since the option will be available to everyone. Times past are "sunk cost" if you will, they have no bearing on the current or the future.

Humpink Omaristos
Posted - 2011.07.05 06:55:00 - [221]
 

Edited by: Humpink Omaristos on 05/07/2011 06:55:42
Originally by: Toovhon
How tragic you're forced to play games that are competitive

You fail to realize that gaining skillpoints is not competitive. Skillpoints are gained at the same rate for everyone (allowing minor variations in SP/hr depending on attributes and implants). Player skill has no impact on gaining skillpoints, all a player does is pay for the skillpoints and wait.

If you want to make an argument against buying SP for cash then make one that at the very least makes some sense because describing skillpoint gain as a competitive activity makes no sense at all.

Zephy Russ
Posted - 2011.07.05 07:18:00 - [222]
 

Look at WoW. Every player there is at the level cap, or is desperately grinding towards the level cap so they can start playing the actual game. People below the level cap? Bah, they're useless in everything! Nobody wants them at all for what they are, excepting as level caps in the making. So, WoW, despite being an RPG with levels, actually has very little to do with experience and levels at the real meat of the game. This is what we'd face here.

"What's that? You haven't ground to level 5 in amarr supercarrier yet? You haven't maxed out all your skills? You're useless, p1ss off!"

Once more it would come down to equipment, but there's not enough variety in PvE or even the selection of equipment available to make that worthwhile. An exaggerated example? Maybe, but my bet is we'd start seeing this kind of thing within weeks of the ability to grind SP coming in.

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.05 07:45:00 - [223]
 

Originally by: Zephy Russ
Look at WoW. Every player there is at the level cap, or is desperately grinding towards the level cap so they can start playing the actual game. People below the level cap? Bah, they're useless in everything! Nobody wants them at all for what they are, excepting as level caps in the making. So, WoW, despite being an RPG with levels, actually has very little to do with experience and levels at the real meat of the game. This is what we'd face here.

"What's that? You haven't ground to level 5 in amarr supercarrier yet? You haven't maxed out all your skills? You're useless, p1ss off!"

Once more it would come down to equipment, but there's not enough variety in PvE or even the selection of equipment available to make that worthwhile. An exaggerated example? Maybe, but my bet is we'd start seeing this kind of thing within weeks of the ability to grind SP coming in.


Indeed. Also for the umpteenth time I point out that one of the great things about Eve is that even a very new player in a low level ship can be useful as part of a team (e.g. scouts, tacklers, haulers), or solo. It is not necessary to be flying an [insert very high level ship and fit here]. In most roles it's not even desirable!

Those with massive entitlement issues in this thread need to get over their hard on for high level skills, and just play the bloody game (or better yet just move on). Everyone else is playing the game, and the vast majority are getting by just fine without years of skills under their belts.

Cry me a river you can't do XYZ high level thing in Eve yet. Diddums. You've still an entire sandbox of options, the vast majority of which are open to anyone with a couple months training time under their belts. If that's too hard for you, then you need to either harden the !@#$ up, or !@#$ off. Stop !@#$ing whinging here.

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.05 08:00:00 - [224]
 

Originally by: Humpink Omaristos
Edited by: Humpink Omaristos on 05/07/2011 06:55:42
Originally by: Toovhon
How tragic you're forced to play games that are competitive

You fail to realize that gaining skillpoints is not competitive. Skillpoints are gained at the same rate for everyone (allowing minor variations in SP/hr depending on attributes and implants). Player skill has no impact on gaining skillpoints, all a player does is pay for the skillpoints and wait.

If you want to make an argument against buying SP for cash then make one that at the very least makes some sense because describing skillpoint gain as a competitive activity makes no sense at all.


You know what - you're 100% right and make total sense. Skill training time is utterly without value! There is nothing competative about the effort required to gather the resorces and build the infrastructure to utilise those high level skills in the highest levels of industry and combat!

Thus I propose every player be given 10,000,000,000 skill points upon account activation. It's not right they should have to do anything but fly the very highest level ships, equip the very highest level mods, and run the highest level iundustry and research jobs from day one. Ignoring how useful all those other ships and jobs are, and the sense of value players get from having taken the time to train high skills, I think every player should get every single skill handed to them on a silver platter! Awesome idea.

My name is Toovhon, and I endorse this grand idiocy :-)

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.05 09:17:00 - [225]
 

Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 05/07/2011 09:19:37
Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 05/07/2011 09:18:34
Originally by: Humpink Omaristos

I do think that any player, new or old, should have the ability to create a new character which allows the player to experience a larger portion of the game from day 1.



Maybe you should stick to console games then.

Quote:

Sorry to say that your analogy with RL employment fails, that's three for three on the analogy side. The comparison to McDonalds fails because skill training is completely passive, all vets had to do was pay and wait.



Maybe you should stop wasting time trying to figure out the problems with my analogies and more on figuring out why your proposal is ridiculous.

Quote:
Skillpoints determine which parts of the game one can experience to what degree. New players, or alts, or younger existing players are denied access to aspects of the game simply because they, due to no fault of their own, haven't been playing the game for as long as others.

The flaw in EVE is that skillpoints can not be gained through effort. The rate at which they are gained is fairly constant within a range. In other MMOs you can progress faster if you put in more active playtime, in EVE you can not. This is by design but it's just to illustrate that players are powerless when it comes to gaining SP beyond the 2,400 SP/hr or whatever the max is.



You say 'flaw' I say 'by design'.
Quote:


Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Instead think of it as a have-not's vs have's discussion. What this proposal amounts to, is a META-game method by which you can improve your game.
In the real world, this is called CORRUPTION.
Sorry, again the comparison just doesn't work because buying SP for cash is nothing like corruption IRL.

It's much more fitting to compare an EVE character to a nice 2,600 sqft house with a double wide detached garage and a pool in back. You can build the house on your own time, a few hours a day after work and on your days off, and it will take you a few years to get it done. Alternatively you can pay a contractor to build it for you and have it ready in just one summer. It's more expensive to have someone else build it but to the buyer that expense is worth it.



really? your analogy relies on you using money to get the house built. Money that you earn IN RL to use on something in RL. That is *NOT* the same as using RL money to get you something in EVE economy. Please look up the definition of "meta-gaming" before you continue with any analogies.


Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.05 09:23:00 - [226]
 

Originally by: Zephy Russ
Look at WoW. Every player there is at the level cap, or is desperately grinding towards the level cap so they can start playing the actual game. People below the level cap? Bah, they're useless in everything! Nobody wants them at all for what they are, excepting as level caps in the making. So, WoW, despite being an RPG with levels, actually has very little to do with experience and levels at the real meat of the game. This is what we'd face here.

"What's that? You haven't ground to level 5 in amarr supercarrier yet? You haven't maxed out all your skills? You're useless, p1ss off!"

Once more it would come down to equipment, but there's not enough variety in PvE or even the selection of equipment available to make that worthwhile. An exaggerated example? Maybe, but my bet is we'd start seeing this kind of thing within weeks of the ability to grind SP coming in.


So what you are arguing is that you start WOW, and you should be able to buy that super +10 armor and vorpal sword +20 just because you are a rich brat who's daddy gives you $100 a month allowance. What a horrible world New Eden will become if every rich brat could get whatever they wanted when they wanted.

I think it is sufficient to say that the argument has been made and proven beyond any doubt here. I don't think I need to say anything else on the matter.

Zephy Russ
Posted - 2011.07.05 09:32:00 - [227]
 

Ow, dude, friendly fire!
Try reading it properly and look at the inflections and word choices and then see whether I support this idea.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.05 09:37:00 - [228]
 

Originally by: Zephy Russ
Ow, dude, friendly fire!
Try reading it properly and look at the inflections and word choices and then see whether I support this idea.


oops sorry! I'm neither dude nor american, so sorry if I missed sarcasm. Embarassed

Zephy Russ
Posted - 2011.07.05 09:38:00 - [229]
 

I'm also Australian, not American if that's what you are implying.

Laurence Pinkitin
Posted - 2011.07.05 09:44:00 - [230]
 

Originally by: Zephy Russ
Look at WoW. Every player there is at the level cap, or is desperately grinding towards the level cap so they can start playing the actual game. People below the level cap? Bah, they're useless in everything! Nobody wants them at all for what they are, excepting as level caps in the making. So, WoW, despite being an RPG with levels, actually has very little to do with experience and levels at the real meat of the game. This is what we'd face here.

"What's that? You haven't ground to level 5 in amarr supercarrier yet? You haven't maxed out all your skills? You're useless, p1ss off!"

Once more it would come down to equipment, but there's not enough variety in PvE or even the selection of equipment available to make that worthwhile. An exaggerated example? Maybe, but my bet is we'd start seeing this kind of thing within weeks of the ability to grind SP coming in.


Outside of tacklers and ewar ships its T2 or GTFO if you want to have a successful roam. So yea its basically "What's that? You haven't ground to level 5 in amarr supercarrier yet? You haven't maxed out all your skills? You're useless, p1ss off!" already.

Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.05 10:15:00 - [231]
 

Originally by: Humpink Omaristos
Let me preface what I am about to say with that I didn't say that vets vs noobs is unbalanced, someone else did, however;
Originally by: Ranka Mei
Vets with more SP than noobs is as 'unbalanced' as a six-grader being further ahead than a first-grader: in other words, not unbalanced at all.

All y'all fail at Economy 101, really.

Honestly, you fail at analogies, for the second time and all on page 7. Comparing vets and noobs to sixth-graders and first-graders makes no sense at all because unlike EVE players they are not limited to being stuck on the same playground..

Au contraire. Sixth-graders and first-graders are both on the same playground (namely, school); the former just happens to be way further ahead of the latter. Yes, the sixth-grader has a clear edge, but it's not an any unfair advantage: his advantage just stems from having been in school longer. In terms of EVE, the sixth-grader is simply in a different league: he's dealing with Sovereignty and supercaps, while the newbie just lost his first destroyer in a lv 1 mission. Yet each player has to go thru the exact same motions of completing skills, without the ability to buy himself into a super-training pack for AUR. That's what makes it all balanced.

Add to this, that the difference between a vet and a newer player is mitigated by game mechanics that are available to the newer player as well: if you can fly a Scorpion, and you can ECM a bit, you can jam the vet: nothing he can do about it (except use his brains and experience to prevent such an encounter, perhaps).

So, I reiterate that some people having (considerably) more SP than others does not in any way, shape, or form make the game unbalanced. And no AUR-for-SP should ever be introduced for the purpose of 'rebalancing' said SP differences.

Evenus Battuta
Posted - 2011.07.05 10:28:00 - [232]
 

Edited by: Evenus Battuta on 05/07/2011 10:33:24
SP means nothing and vets are so afraid of being catched up, they call it cheat if other's bullet cause the same damage as theirs do. Really sad.

Vets have advantage in real life? They also get old and die so the young eventually catch up, do you want that happen to your character? So stop talking about RL, it's just game design. And I must say that as a game design, SP is a terrible failure, it's nothing about justice or necessity or any theory, it is a failure because that as a game design, it DOES drive newbies away. Newbies have so many better choices than getting bored out waiting or playing vulnerable prey for someone they can never catch up to have the chance to fight back.

An average player does start a game with some competive mind no matter it is correct or not to you. And they DO leave as soon as they realize that there is no CHANCE of equality. What will be your choice if your only choice is either play constricted content or get blowed up and trolled, in a video game? I prefer real life where at least robbers don't get insurance pay and sixth-grades are not free to beat up the younger. This problem is so predictable as I wonder how could CCP made this mistake at first if they intended to run the game in long-term.

Sabre Tek
Posted - 2011.07.05 10:41:00 - [233]
 

Edited by: Sabre Tek on 05/07/2011 10:44:54
Newbies as you say can only be useful for scouts/ haulers/ tacklers and then after 3 months maybe a really crappy drake pilot.

Wow are you guys DENSE to see the hold back new player skill limitations are? And why it makes most newbies quit?

I could care less about skill points for people over 50 million SP. What I'm saying is new players are lost daily to having no options open to them to progress upto a level where they can really be useful and enjoy Eve in PVP and enjoying high level missions.

Sure skill points are an incredibly useful part of the game that builds growth and things to look forward too, but new players really should be cut some slack so the new player quit ratio is lower. Amazed CCP's let it go on this long. How many people joined and quit after they hit some 3 week brick wall in training and didn't want to run low level super repetivie level 3 missions???? 100,000's thats how many.

Say what you want, you can't deny the new player experience sucks and loses the Eve universe a huge amount of new players because its too harsh and too freaking limiting and boring

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.05 11:28:00 - [234]
 

Originally by: Laurence Pinkitin
Originally by: Zephy Russ
Look at WoW. Every player there is at the level cap, or is desperately grinding towards the level cap so they can start playing the actual game. People below the level cap? Bah, they're useless in everything! Nobody wants them at all for what they are, excepting as level caps in the making. So, WoW, despite being an RPG with levels, actually has very little to do with experience and levels at the real meat of the game. This is what we'd face here.

"What's that? You haven't ground to level 5 in amarr supercarrier yet? You haven't maxed out all your skills? You're useless, p1ss off!"

Once more it would come down to equipment, but there's not enough variety in PvE or even the selection of equipment available to make that worthwhile. An exaggerated example? Maybe, but my bet is we'd start seeing this kind of thing within weeks of the ability to grind SP coming in.


Outside of tacklers and ewar ships its T2 or GTFO if you want to have a successful roam. So yea its basically "What's that? You haven't ground to level 5 in amarr supercarrier yet? You haven't maxed out all your skills? You're useless, p1ss off!" already.


Then you're joining the wrong roams. I regularly fly in fun roams in ships not requiring more than a couple months to get into suitably decent fits. I've also seen many corps and groups of friends running roams that include month old characters. Yes - their choice of roles is limited at that point, but so is what you can do at the beginning of any RPG, MMO or not. I don't recall running Molten Core on a level 10 druid in vanilla WoW either.

More likely your use of "You haven't ground to level 5 in amarr supercarrier yet?" simply shows you have no idea of the variety most roaming gangs fly or fit, if you think that's the only suitable option. I'm sorry you have such a low opinion of any other role but DPSing supercap, but all that says to me is Eve is really not the game for you.

MorliDots22
Posted - 2011.07.05 11:36:00 - [235]
 

Edited by: MorliDots22 on 05/07/2011 23:43:38
Althought Im for SP for PLEX there is a very good argument against it : In opposite to Bazaar method the amount of high skilled toons could explode. If this happens it could force a "skill race". CCP has to fall a decision : freedom of individual purpose vs. less freedom and more or less equality like we have it now. You can find good arguments in this discussion for both proposals. This decision is more of a moral kind. Its like "Is greed good" ? If you seek personal freedom you say yes, if not no.

I choose yes.

Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.05 11:41:00 - [236]
 

Originally by: Evenus Battuta
An average player does start a game with some competive mind no matter it is correct or not to you. And they DO leave as soon as they realize that there is no CHANCE of equality.

Yes, there IS equality, among their peers: people with a comparable SP count. And they can level the playing field, and even win skirmishes, when using superior numbers and/or smart tactics.

And, btw, what do you think vets are? There have all been noobs too, at some point. And yet they didn't run away either, did they? So, if you mean that EVE is not for the instant-gratification crowd that wants to play in the major league TODAY, then you're right: it isn't.

So, all a new player really can't do is fly a supercap yet. But within his own league he can be every bit as competitive as the vet in his Nyx. That's the charm of EVE.

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.05 11:58:00 - [237]
 

Edited by: Toovhon on 05/07/2011 11:58:31
Originally by: Evenus Battuta
Edited by: Evenus Battuta on 05/07/2011 10:33:24
SP means nothing and vets are so afraid of being catched up, they call it cheat if other's bullet cause the same damage as theirs do. Really sad.


Good on ya for totally ignoring everything you can do and everywhere you can go as a new low SP player. Gosh it's such a closed off universe, isn't it? Well at least it is when you see anything less than flying a supercap as having fun... :-D

Quote:
Vets have advantage in real life? They also get old and die so the young eventually catch up, do you want that happen to your character? So stop talking about RL, it's just game design. And I must say that as a game design, SP is a terrible failure, it's nothing about justice or necessity or any theory, it is a failure because that as a game design, it DOES drive newbies away. Newbies have so many better choices than getting bored out waiting or playing vulnerable prey for someone they can never catch up to have the chance to fight back.


It didn't drive me away. But then I didn't foolishly see doing something requiring high level skills as the the only thing worth doing. Stuff I did in my first month:

Level IV missions as part of a fleet (during my first couple days in-game in fact) - great fun :-) My CEO taught me how to play and handle myself so I didn't die too often, and knew how to handle basic fleet mechanics.

Solo missioning up to level IIs (which also meant getting my first cruiser - a Vexor - and drones! Love pet classes *grins* ).

Mining.

My first venture into lowsec guided by a more experienced mate I made in my rookie corp - scary, but fun!

Salvaging other people's mission - the ISK was rolling in now :-)

Some low level exploration - thank the powers for the YouTube video on how to probe, heh.

None of which required high level skills (unless you count the ability communicate and meet people willing to game together), and all of which were great fun!

Quote:
An average player does start a game with some competive mind no matter it is correct or not to you. And they DO leave as soon as they realize that there is no CHANCE of equality. What will be your choice if your only choice is either play constricted content or get blowed up and trolled, in a video game? I prefer real life where at least robbers don't get insurance pay and sixth-grades are not free to beat up the younger. This problem is so predictable as I wonder how could CCP made this mistake at first if they intended to run the game in long-term.



Maybe you should stop worrying about what others are doing, and start enjoying what you're capable of right now. If you take the attitude that nothing but [insert very high level skill] is worth a damn, of course you're not going to have fun in Eve! Or if you associate with people who only ever say that - same result.

I've never stopped having fun in Eve, right from day one to now when I'm flying a Typhoon Fleet Issue (the most skill intensive T1 non-cap ship in Eve) in missions, various navy frigates and stealth bombers in roams, T2 mining barges for ore and ice, run research operations spanning minmatar and gallente space, etc, etc.

I still can't fly a cap ship. I don't care that I can't fly a capital. I haven't even bothered training towards flying a cap.

Instead I took my first CEO's advice and took a shorter term view towards having fun in Eve: I first worked on training up battlecruisers, as the BC is the easiest way to start running harder content - even wormholes in a gang. Later I built on those skills to get into battleships, but only after I'd spent a couple months getting my BC skills up to a decent level, which helped a lot when it came time to run my new BS (as a lot of the skill bonuses applied to my BSes fit too.

I also spent a lot of time building up my mining, industry and science skills, as those were areas of interest as well.

But the point...

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.05 12:10:00 - [238]
 

...is that I didn't try to train to fly a capital or any other high level skill immediately. I didn't even try to fly a BS till I was several months into Eve. Was I making less ISK than cap pilots in 0.0? Was I taking part in smaller less important operations? Yes, and yes. Was I still having a bunch of fun and earning more than enough ISK to fund my new ventures? Yes again.

You've got a massive hard on for high level skills and/or you're associating with Eve players who either don't want more low level players, or foolishly look down upon them. Well I'm sorry if this sounds harsh - but that's your fault. Take some personal responsibility and get rid of the idea you need to fly a capital or be earning 100's of mil per day to be having fun, and stop associating with people who belittle you (though frankly I'm inclined to believe this is a mental issue of your own making...).

I'm telling you and heaps of other players will tell you the same: there are plenty of opportunities for new players in Eve, and players more than willing to group with and help them out.

For that matter - I'm really rather curious: would you mind telling me why in your case you think lower level skill activities in Eve are not fun for you? I really want to know. Perhaps I can help you see there are other fun options that don't involve ******ing Eve for everyone.

Finally: accept you will not succeed in ******ing Eve. The vast majority of players wouldn't stand for it. CCP wouldn't stand for it. It. Is. Not. Going. To. Happen. So deal with it, please. Stop whinging, and start being proactive with your own experience.

Zephy Russ
Posted - 2011.07.05 12:15:00 - [239]
 

And thank you, Toovhon, for putting into words what I could only descrive as a feeling of horror at the concepts being expressed in this thread.

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.05 12:28:00 - [240]
 

Ha, thanks Zephy, it's a rant that's been building up since the MT riots brought every forum troll, crank, fool and whinger to the surface a couple weeks ago. I'm just glad it turned out semi-readable :-)

Though realistically I doubt it will have much effect. These cranks and whingers seem more interested in whinging, than being proactive in their own play. Still, I feel a bit better having said it all, heh.

See ya starside!


Pages: first : previous : ... 3 4 5 6 7 [8] 9 10 11 : last (11)

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only