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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.02 00:20:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: Humpink Omaristos

Other than that, attacking the person because you don't like the idea is a logical fallacy. You want to argue the point then do so, whom the idea is coming from is irrelevant to the discussion.



Something you do with frequency.

Originally by: Humpink Omaristos

Originally by: Morar Santee
A second indicator: If he was so happy with the current MTs, he would have a monocle.

That in itself is a reasonable argument. However, from my personal perspective vanity MT don't excite me.



Translation: I contradict my self regularly, so as to sound reasonable, however if I think you do, because I am too ignorant to know what you are talkng about, I will accuse you of it and call you a "politician"

Originally by: Humpink Omaristos

Originally by: Morar Santee
... he had to realize, to his dismay, that he cannot buy EVE status with RL money.

I don't want to buy status. I want to give money to receive time because time is my most valuable and very finite asset.



In other words, your time matters more than someone else's time simply because it is yours. Selfish much?

Originally by: Humpink Omaristos

Originally by: Morar Santee
And yes, clearly it adds to my entertainment if more "virtual goods" are sold on EVE. In fact, lets disable skill training altogether until people pay 1000 Aurum/day to activate it. Would make my gameplay so much more enjoyable.

That line of reasoning that makes it impossible to take your arguments seriously. No one is talking about disabling skill training. You are trying to go to some extreme to invoke an emotional response in the readership, which incidentally is exactly what trolls do.



Which is exactly what you do.

Originally by: Humpink Omaristos

The sale of virtual goods can (can, doesn't have to) add to your entertainment value if it results in more people joining EVE for you to play with or to shoot at (if you are a PvPer).



Not at the expense of turning Eve into a theme park for dopamine junkies.

Originally by: Humpink Omaristos

Being opposed to non-vanity MT is a bit like being opposed to buying bread, because at the end of the day you really didn't earn the bread, you didn't plow the field, didn't buy the seeds, didn't tend to the crop, didn't harvest it, didn't mill the grain, didn't fire the oven, didn't kneed the dough, you merely cheated your way to some bread by exchanging money for it.


In other words, you don't know what you are talking about.

Humpink Omaristos
Posted - 2011.07.02 01:32:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Humpink Omaristos
I don't want to buy status. I want to give money to receive time because time is my most valuable and very finite asset.



In other words, your time matters more than someone else's time simply because it is yours. Selfish much?

Obviously my time matters more to me than your time, it would be utterly crazy to even suggest anything to the contrary. Now all you need to do is to explain how that fact relates to the discussion at hand.

Zephy Russ
Posted - 2011.07.02 02:08:00 - [123]
 

Hello. Time to present you with a kickass analogy courtesy of Ben "Yahtzee" Crosshaw:

"In Minecraft, you have to find your own entertainment, whether that be skipping through the wilderness picking flowers or building an eighty-foot golden **** and balls. (...) But then again part of the appeal of Minecraft is the effort involved in gathering the materials. That eighty-foot **** and balls wouldn't be so satisfyingly turgid if it weren't for the entire continent you had to turn over to find the ore. (...) Minecraft is a responsible parent; it knows that you'll swiftly get bored of your golden **** and balls if it just ''gives'' you one, so it pays you five dollars a week to wash its car so you can save up and gain an appreciation for value so when you finally have your golden **** and balls, you'll love it all the more. Until Minecraft sends the suicide shrubs to demolish it because you also need to learn that sometimes life will just **** on you. As it will when your boss finds out what you spent your entire workday on."

That sums up my view on the issue quite succinctly.

Humpink Omaristos
Posted - 2011.07.02 02:33:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: Zephy Russ
Hello. Time to present you with a kickass analogy courtesy of Ben "Yahtzee" Crosshaw:

"... part of the appeal of Minecraft is the effort involved in gathering the materials. That eighty-foot **** and balls wouldn't be so satisfyingly turgid if it weren't for the entire continent you had to turn over to find the ore."

That sums up my view on the issue quite succinctly.

Let's, as a purely academic exercise, assume that some readers don't get how the active gathering of resources in Minecraft, the dangers of doing so, the risk of 100% loss of those resources, is a valid analogy to the completely passive task of gaining SP in EVE.

How would you explain to those readers that in your opinion actively playing Minecraft is the same as logging into EVE once every week to set some skill training?

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.02 02:43:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Humpink Omaristos
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Humpink Omaristos
I don't want to buy status. I want to give money to receive time because time is my most valuable and very finite asset.



In other words, your time matters more than someone else's time simply because it is yours. Selfish much?

Obviously my time matters more to me than your time, it would be utterly crazy to even suggest anything to the contrary. Now all you need to do is to explain how that fact relates to the discussion at hand.


You're the one that brought it up, you answer it.

Zephy Russ
Posted - 2011.07.02 02:51:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: Humpink Omaristos

Let's, as a purely academic exercise, assume that some readers don't get how the active gathering of resources in Minecraft, the dangers of doing so, the risk of 100% loss of those resources, is a valid analogy to the completely passive task of gaining SP in EVE.

How would you explain to those readers that in your opinion actively playing Minecraft is the same as logging into EVE once every week to set some skill training?


Quite simple. The means of generation in this case is irrelevant (Though it may be relevant to the concept of non-vanity MT, and yes, PLEX, but that's not the topic now.) I will post the most important excerpt of the piece:

Quote:
Minecraft is a responsible parent; it knows that you'll swiftly get bored of your golden **** and balls if it just ''gives'' you one,


ISK and SP, summed up quite nicely if you ask me. A big part of eve is learning to make do with what you have while you're waiting to get something better. If you automatically have the something that's better, where is the deire towards it? A large part of the satisfaction of skill training is the journey. As such, I wouldn't be against a means to speed up your training a little through active participation, but direct cash to SP will do more harm than good, no matter what you might think now.

Sabre Tek
Posted - 2011.07.02 04:14:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: Zephy Russ
Originally by: Humpink Omaristos

Let's, as a purely academic exercise, assume that some readers don't get how the active gathering of resources in Minecraft, the dangers of doing so, the risk of 100% loss of those resources, is a valid analogy to the completely passive task of gaining SP in EVE.

How would you explain to those readers that in your opinion actively playing Minecraft is the same as logging into EVE once every week to set some skill training?


Quite simple. The means of generation in this case is irrelevant (Though it may be relevant to the concept of non-vanity MT, and yes, PLEX, but that's not the topic now.) I will post the most important excerpt of the piece:

Quote:
Minecraft is a responsible parent; it knows that you'll swiftly get bored of your golden **** and balls if it just ''gives'' you one,


ISK and SP, summed up quite nicely if you ask me. A big part of eve is learning to make do with what you have while you're waiting to get something better. If you automatically have the something that's better, where is the deire towards it? A large part of the satisfaction of skill training is the journey. As such, I wouldn't be against a means to speed up your training a little through active participation, but direct cash to SP will do more harm than good, no matter what you might think now.



A big part of Eve currently is FORCING you to make do and go get another hobby while you pay subscription fee's and wait years for your toon to level so you can fly a new ship or use module. I gotta tell you most people don't have the patience for that. I sure as hell didn't. I hated Eve's restrictions and quit twice because there was no options to grow faster. As soon as I bought a 100mill sp toon the game opened up I went to 0.0 joined a pvp corp and am engrossed in the game loving every minute of it with big plans for the future of one day owning a super or running a corp of my own. I didn't want to wait years to achieve this I'm a successful business owner in RL and I want to get ahead fast and achieve my goals not have some stupid time rule put on me that says "Go play another game cause your actions nolonger have any impact on your characters level"

Really think about it, your playing a game that says "you can't level any further by playing this game anymore or less, just go away and come back in a week/months time."

Give me a break, you can't say thats a good thing for the game.

Joyana Dakota
Posted - 2011.07.02 04:59:00 - [128]
 

I'm for selling skill points as a microtransaction, would make entering the game the game so much easier for new players.

Humpink Omaristos
Posted - 2011.07.02 06:00:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
You're the one that brought it up, you answer it.

I didn't compare my time with your time, you did.
I compared money with my time. If I by means of spending money can save my time then I will gladly spend money, as would most professional adults who value their time and who have disposable income available to them.

Here's a simple example to illustrate the concept;
If one needs 380 mil then one can grind them, or one can buy a PLEX for RL cash and sell it in game. If one can make $15 IRL faster than one can make 380 mil in game, and if one does not find entertainment value in the grind, then a reasonable person who has the resources available will pay the $15 instead.

The same "I value my time" concept applies to SP for RL cash. If one finds no entertainment value in playing this game in the low SP range and one has the resources available to shorten the wait, then it's reasonable to do so.

Originally by: Zephy Russ
Quite simple. The means of generation in this case is irrelevant (Though it may be relevant to the concept of non-vanity MT, and yes, PLEX, but that's not the topic now.) I will post the most important excerpt of the piece:

Quote:
Minecraft is a responsible parent; it knows that you'll swiftly get bored of your golden **** and balls if it just ''gives'' you one,


ISK and SP, summed up quite nicely if you ask me. A big part of eve is learning to make do with what you have while you're waiting to get something better. If you automatically have the something that's better, where is the deire towards it?

The answer to that question should be left up to the individual to decide and chances are fairly good that there are any number of reasonable answers to it.

Just because you would not enjoy such a circumstances does not mean that others wouldn't and more importantly your personal preference should not become the mandate for everyone. Don't want to shorten the wait and buy SP? Then don't. No one would be forcing you to buy in, you can play the game any way you like.

However, I do want to drive the point home that waiting is never part of any learning curve because waiting is inherently passive. Before someone jumps in and says that waiting teaches patience and builds character let me stop you right there and mention that it is not the responsibility of the entertainment industry to teach me patience when I am paying for entertainment.

Zephy Russ
Posted - 2011.07.02 07:46:00 - [130]
 

Quote:
The answer to that question should be left up to the individual to decide and chances are fairly good that there are any number of reasonable answers to it.

There are any number of "reasonable" answers, but only a few that are best for the playerbase. Direct purchasing of SP via PLEX is not one of them.

Quote:
Just because you would not enjoy such a circumstances does not mean that others wouldn't and more importantly your personal preference should not become the mandate for everyone. Don't want to shorten the wait and buy SP? Then don't. No one would be forcing you to buy in, you can play the game any way you like.

Here's the kicker: I DON'T like waiting at all. It's annoying as hell. However, I do see the need for it. Even though I can see what happens because of it, I'll still make use of it because we are ultimately an instant gratification species. This isn't a matter of self control or elitism, it's a matter of basic human nature: Why wait for something when you can get it faster? And yet we come to another section of my quote:

"so when you finally have your golden **** and balls, you'll love it all the more."

That is to say, things only remain desirable as long as they are out of our reach. Once we have obtained them, they become mundane and you quickly get bored of them. Thus, once everything in EVE is within your reach, why bother playing anymore?

Quote:
However, I do want to drive the point home that waiting is never part of any learning curve because waiting is inherently passive. Before someone jumps in and says that waiting teaches patience and builds character let me stop you right there and mention that it is not the responsibility of the entertainment industry to teach me patience when I am paying for entertainment.

I won't say that because it's *******s. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I'd like noobs to get a small present of 50-100k SP to start them off getting all the modules they need. Once they have all they need, they are stuck with the long training queue. What does our noob do then? He either ragequits because he wants instant gratification, or he finds something to do with the abilities he does have, (Nothing is a thing, but it's a choice. Just because you can't get the high-end content doesn't mean everything else is worthless.) and in doing so shows that he has the right mindset for the game.

If you think the mindset needs to be changed, then you misunderstand the values which set EVE apart from generic MMO games. Hint: It's not the game itself, the game sucks if it's viewed as a traditional game.

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.02 10:09:00 - [131]
 

Why do people think they have to have high skill points to do stuff? If they have such a massive hard-on for [insert high level skill here] let them buy a character trained to use it - that they can already do.

Also - your reasoning that "vets ... didn't "work" for their skillpoints either, they merely paid for them and waited for the training to be completed" is utterly moronic. You really think longtime Eve players will accept fools like you with more money than brains or willingness to go the distance, buying their way to high levels skills they took months or years gaining? Really?

And what if you do cry and buy your way to flying a supercarrier, for example? Do you really think longtime players will be impressed or trust you'll you to know WTF you're doing, or believe you're willing to stick through the bad times as well as the good? Do you really think you'll get any respect? Because we'll all seen fools who obviously bought their way to high levels, and we know better than to fly with them.

But sill - the biggest flaw in your reasoning remains that new players can be in useful ships to any fleet within days. Yes, you might be 'only' scouting, tackling, hauling, etc, but if you don't know the value of good scouts for example, you're even more ignorant that you just made yourself sound.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.02 10:13:00 - [132]
 

Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 02/07/2011 14:58:12
Originally by: Humpink Omaristos
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
You're the one that brought it up, you answer it.

I didn't compare my time with your time, you did.
I compared money with my time. If I by means of spending money can save my time then I will gladly spend money, as would most professional adults who value their time and who have disposable income available to them.

Here's a simple example to illustrate the concept;
If one needs 380 mil then one can grind them, or one can buy a PLEX for RL cash and sell it in game. If one can make $15 IRL faster than one can make 380 mil in game, and if one does not find entertainment value in the grind, then a reasonable person who has the resources available will pay the $15 instead.

The same "I value my time" concept applies to SP for RL cash. If one finds no entertainment value in playing this game in the low SP range and one has the resources available to shorten the wait, then it's reasonable to do so.



It is not reasonable to do so at the expense of everyone else. They have also invested their time, their time is as valuable to them as yours is to you.

Here's your statement, "I don't want to buy status. I want to give money to receive time because time is my most valuable and very finite asset."

Soon as you say "my", you're making a distinction between your self and everyone else, you did indeed bring it up, deal with it. There are lots of other people that have invested "their" time. You are not concerned about "their" time, much less how skill training time, for SP in Eve, fits into the structure of Eve and impacts "everyone's" time.

The larger impacts have been expressed to you, but you continue to remain selfishly fixed on your goal and not Eve at large. "Time" is very important in Eve. It limits the rate at which wealth enters the game, the sandbox. ISK it self is an expression of time and effort, an abstraction of labor. Purchasing ISK with PLEX is a purchase of time as expressed by ISK, but that ISK was paid for (earned, time and effort spent) in the past with someone's time. By injecting more time into the sandbox with short cuts, such as buying SP for $cash, or non-vanity micro-transactions, imbalances will be created. You don't care about the imbalances you will create for everyone else, only about capitalizing upon the imbalance for your self.

In this thread, any time someone has shown you how the idea of selling SPs outright will create imbalances, you have attempted to dismiss it with irrelevant minutia, and when you are pointed out as incorrect, you start getting all emotional.

Eve may not be the game for you.

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.02 10:23:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: Joyana Dakota
I'm for selling skill points as a microtransaction, would make entering the game the game so much easier for new players.


Do you think you can't do anything when you're new? Because I could do an awful lot of things with minimal skill point investment. Why can't you?

Dan Estrellas Amigo
Posted - 2011.07.02 10:51:00 - [134]
 

Quote:
This shouldn't jade the bitter vets any further since they didn't "work" for their skillpoints either, they merely paid for them and waited for the training to be completed.


It has nothing to do with work, it's a videogame. It is about growing a character becoming meaningless.

Skill points are the definition of a character's strength. If players can purchase skill points, then ISK can purchase skill points, then ISK becomes the definition of a character's strength and the focus of Eve will shift.

Nice way to ask CCP to destroy the core of the game. Just because you can't tackle on day 1.

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.02 10:55:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Dan Estrellas Amigo
Quote:
This shouldn't jade the bitter vets any further since they didn't "work" for their skillpoints either, they merely paid for them and waited for the training to be completed.


It has nothing to do with work, it's a videogame. It is about growing a character becoming meaningless.

Skill points are the definition of a character's strength. If players can purchase skill points, then ISK can purchase skill points, then ISK becomes the definition of a character's strength and the focus of Eve will shift.

Nice way to ask CCP to destroy the core of the game. Just because you can't tackle on day 1.


The irony here is you can actually tackle on day one. The OP is clearly an awful player and thinks being in a supercarrier will somehow stop him getting blown up.

MorliDots22
Posted - 2011.07.02 11:51:00 - [136]
 

You all forget that there are people out there who are succesfull and dont want to wait many years to fly all ships and use all modules. CCP only offers a Character Bazaar where they can buy toons. But buying a alien toon with 100b sp is not the same as have one created. Why not let those who are willing to pay to pay for this ? Most of those who are against PLEX for SP would also prohibit all special services like 5 Star hotels, porsche cars and hunt. Yes let us all live in soviet union and nordkorea . Wait , what about freedom ? what about individual purpose ? The right to do what I want to do ? Why I should I drive a vw golf if I can afford a porsche ? Why should I sleep in a hostel if I can book a suite in a Hilton ? Just because the 80 % of people do it ? A clever businessman always see a possibility to maximise the profit - its the only true reason why WE have all those special services in RL - because there are people who are ready to pay for it. So wake up from your idealistic world view.

Heroltior Ghedonia
Posted - 2011.07.02 11:56:00 - [137]
 

How about this then... What about you buy the skill points, but must also purchase enough plex to purchase the skill books to train up said purchased skills. Shoot! some books are hundreds of millions of isk each. So, instead of $15 for the 10 mil sp or whatever... you have to pay $50 for the plex to get the isk to buy the books to validate the skills.

People with patients who have played the game as it was meant to be, payed for the skills, not just in time but with isk as well to be able to learn those skills.

Another... any skills acquired through MT, upon being podded, a percentage are lost (just like T3 skills when losing a ship) as a penalty for your eager quick to win ways.

Just an idea... not that it matters.ugh

Zephy Russ
Posted - 2011.07.02 12:23:00 - [138]
 

Quote:
You all forget that there are people out there who are succesfull and dont want to wait many years to fly all ships and use all modules.

This can be best summed up as too f***ing bad. Characters specialize, they are not gods, they shouldn't know everything.

Quote:
CCP only offers a Character Bazaar where they can buy toons. But buying a alien toon with 100b sp is not the same as have one created. Why not let those who are willing to pay to pay for this ?

Using one bad mechanic to justify another isn't a good argument.

Quote:
Most of those who are against PLEX for SP would also prohibit all special services like 5 Star hotels, porsche cars and hunt. Yes let us all live in soviet union and nordkorea .

Keep an eye on your strawman, lest it blow away. Seriously, you are either a troll or a moron. I can't decide which would be more favourable in this case.

Quote:
Wait , what about freedom ? what about individual purpose ? The right to do what I want to do ? Why I should I drive a vw golf if I can afford a porsche ? Why should I sleep in a hostel if I can book a suite in a Hilton ?

In context of the game, you don't have the experience needed to fly it. It's not something you can realistically pay for. A better analogy would be paying to be fast-tracked into flying a jet-fighter without doing all the prerequisites properly. It just isn't going to happen. Your freedom is irrelevant. You are free to fly whatever you want, but you aren't going to be able to fly it if you don't know how.

Quote:
Just because the 80 % of people do it ? A clever businessman always see a possibility to maximise the profit - its the only true reason why WE have all those special services in RL - because there are people who are ready to pay for it. So wake up from your idealistic world view.

So just because we're willing to pay to spoil the game for ourselves and others, we should be allowed to? I'd definitely pay to get SP, hypothetically, and everyone else would too. What would that do to the game?

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.02 12:28:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: MorliDots22
what about freedom ? what about individual purpose ? The right to do what I want to do ?


Freedom? individual purpose? The right to do what you want to do? Those are just fine things, but what you propose gives you those things at the expense of someone else. There is no liberty in that.

MorliDots22
Posted - 2011.07.02 14:21:00 - [140]
 

Edited by: MorliDots22 on 02/07/2011 14:21:56
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: MorliDots22
what about freedom ? what about individual purpose ? The right to do what I want to do ?


Freedom? individual purpose? The right to do what you want to do? Those are just fine things, but what you propose gives you those things at the expense of someone else. There is no liberty in that.


As it was said above the skillpoints dont make you a superior in game. You just have more opportunities. If you want to skill in a actual way its your decision, let others skill faster if they want. Do you loose somehow if a small percentage of EvE playerbase will skill faster ? Let them be - or are you afraid that some "bums" will loose their "empty bottles" or "mushrooms" they collect and grow to sell on black market? Those are the real evil in the game. RMT and ebay traders, bums who destroy the nice partyclub meeting. But wait, did you see someone protesting against it althought everybody knows that this is happening ? I dont. In a simple way if CCP implements SP for PLEX it would hammer toon growers. They sell either toons on ebay for cash or for ISK and then sell this ISK to Ebay.

One root of eve destuction would have gone. The other, bigger evil - ISK Farmers and Bands of greed players who give systems for rent would also soon loose their profit as the PLEX price in the game rises their profits fall.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.02 14:40:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: MorliDots22
Edited by: MorliDots22 on 02/07/2011 14:21:56
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: MorliDots22
what about freedom ? what about individual purpose ? The right to do what I want to do ?


Freedom? individual purpose? The right to do what you want to do? Those are just fine things, but what you propose gives you those things at the expense of someone else. There is no liberty in that.


As it was said above the skillpoints dont make you a superior in game. You just have more opportunities. If you want to skill in a actual way its your decision, let others skill faster if they want. Do you loose somehow if a small percentage of EvE playerbase will skill faster ? Let them be - or are you afraid that some "bums" will loose their "empty bottles" or "mushrooms" they collect and grow to sell on black market? Those are the real evil in the game. RMT and ebay traders, bums who destroy the nice partyclub meeting. But wait, did you see someone protesting against it althought everybody knows that this is happening ? I dont. In a simple way if CCP implements SP for PLEX it would hammer toon growers. They sell either toons on ebay for cash or for ISK and then sell this ISK to Ebay.

One root of eve destuction would have gone. The other, bigger evil - ISK Farmers and Bands of greed players who give systems for rent would also soon loose their profit as the PLEX price in the game rises their profits fall.


Empty bottles and mushrooms? I don't understand the metaphors you're using, sorry. English is apparently not your first language, so I suppose I am misunderstanding.

What I get out of your two recent posts is that, CCP should allow players to buy SP for RL Money/PLEX because that is "fair". But is it "fair" to everyone else? It will cheapen the experience for the majority so that a few can have this "freedom".

Freedom for some at the expense of others is not freedom, it is subjugation. We will all be subjected to entering into the SP race. Veterans in the game will spring ahead of new players. Is it now fair to all those come behind us to be forced into a position where they must also buy skill points to be competitive?

You will counter that they have the choice to not buy skill points, and although that may be true on the surface, the necessity will be there nagging at them, just like you feel there is a necessity to have the ability to purchase SP so that you can catch up.

As for all the red herrings, keep them. I've already had my breakfast.

Sabre Tek
Posted - 2011.07.02 14:57:00 - [142]
 

Edited by: Sabre Tek on 02/07/2011 14:59:11
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: MorliDots22
what about freedom ? what about individual purpose ? The right to do what I want to do ?


Freedom? individual purpose? The right to do what you want to do? Those are just fine things, but what you propose gives you those things at the expense of someone else. There is no liberty in that.



What on earth do you or other individuals LOSE by me gaining a few Skill points for real money on a new toon? Whatever logic your trying to muster is just overrun by emotion about all those people who have more than you in real life buying what they want. And your one claim to fame in life is a high level toon in Eve by the sounds of things.

I'm wealthy and I bought my way into a higher level character than you own (most probably 103mill sp). So what? Can I fly most ships Yes, but not all, can I fly them well nope I suck no big deal i'm learning but I'm not taking anything away from other characters who leveled their toons slowly or from others who bought characters. Skill points are just restrictions on what you can fly not what you do. I'm flying around in 0.0 and there are 1000's of high level toons all flying battleships/T3's or whatever, whats so bad with a few more? Will you nolonger feel special?

One thing I wouldn't do is buy more SP as I was happy with my toon and happy having the massive restrictions taken off me so I can fly the ships I want and now enjoy the Eve I want to play. As in fly t2 cruisers in PVP one day and tengu's the next running exploration sites behind enemy lines. I had to dump a lot of money to get this toon and people can do this already so why is it a major issue if a few newer players to get the 'option' to buy their way out of noob boredom instead of rage quiting and going to play a game that lets them control their own progression? Like EVERY other game on the market.

Looking forward to your failed logic reply filled with emotion of why it would destory Eve.

Morar Santee
Posted - 2011.07.02 15:20:00 - [143]
 

Awesome argumentation.

Of course it completely ignores the fact that games are fun because they enforce certain rules and every player is playing by those rules.

Only a complete moron would argue that a game of chess becomes more fun if you can replace all your pawns with queens by paying 15$. I mean, after all the queen is in the game already, so where could the harm be!? Omfg stop limiting my game experience!!!

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.02 15:25:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Sabre Tek

What on earth do you or other individuals LOSE by me gaining a few Skill points for real money on a new toon? Whatever logic your trying to muster is just overrun by emotion about all those people who have more than you in real life buying what they want. And your one claim to fame in life is a high level toon in Eve by the sounds of things.



LOL, that's it, go in for the personal attack. In fact, assume you know to whom you are speaking and their station in the real world. "They must be poor RL because they do not agree with my position of being able to spend Real money on internet space ships!" Hehehe. Yeah, I'm emotional all right, LMFAO.

As for what people loose, I, and others have expressed their views to you a number of times in this thread. That you reject them or fail to comprehend them isn't really my problem. If you have specific questions about what I have written, feel free to ask, but I feel no need to repeat myself.

Originally by: Sabre Tek

I'm wealthy and I bought my way into a higher level character than you own (most probably 103mill sp). So what? Can I fly most ships Yes, but not all, can I fly them well nope I suck no big deal i'm learning but I'm not taking anything away from other characters who leveled their toons slowly or from others who bought characters. Skill points are just restrictions on what you can fly not what you do. I'm flying around in 0.0 and there are 1000's of high level toons all flying battleships/T3's or whatever, whats so bad with a few more? Will you nolonger feel special?



I don't care if you are wealthy, if you are poor, or what color you are, or your political party of if you can fly around the moon. Ok well if you could fly around the moon I may care about that. I don't give a damn if you have 5000 SP or two hundred million. But as for the rest of it, no one gives a crap but you. Any jack off can come on the internet and claim any damn thing, and even if it is true, it makes no difference to the discussion at hand. I see that this is making you quite upset and that you are forced to hide, but do be careful, someone might see your alt.

Originally by: Sabre Tek

One thing I wouldn't do is buy more SP as I was happy with my toon and happy having the massive restrictions taken off me so I can fly the ships I want and now enjoy the Eve I want to play. As in fly t2 cruisers in PVP one day and tengu's the next running exploration sites behind enemy lines. I had to dump a lot of money to get this toon and people can do this already so why is it a major issue if a few newer players to get the 'option' to buy their way out of noob boredom instead of rage quiting and going to play a game that lets them control their own progression? Like EVERY other game on the market.

Looking forward to your failed logic reply filled with emotion of why it would destory Eve.



Eve isn't like every other game on the market. If you like them so much, go play them, as for explanations, I have done it more than once in this thread. Feel free to go look them up. In fact, have your personal assistant do it for you, and have them study economics, so they can give you a brief run down with regards to the matters at hand. You do have a personal assistant, don't you? And next time you need to be emotional, feel free to do it with your main.

MorliDots22
Posted - 2011.07.02 15:26:00 - [145]
 

Edited by: MorliDots22 on 02/07/2011 15:29:16
Sabre Tek is right, it happens everyday by selling and buying of toons in Character Bazaar. Does it bother anyone ? No. So why the hell SP for PLEX bother you Adunh Slavy ? Let the players have their freedom.

In fact SP for PLEX is more friendly than a Bazaar method. Why ? In Bazaar you have to pay the whole price and cannot be creative ( choose name, etc). Purchasing SP you pay lesser price, you can buy exactly you want. Its like a hire purchase - Ie. you can pay 1 additional PLEX per month or 5 additional PLEX its your decision.In Bazaar you cannot buy a toon "hire purchasing" and pay each month 3 PLEX a whole year. But for those who cannot pay the whole price for a toon in a Bazaar but want to participate early - for them it would be the best thing in game.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.02 15:44:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: MorliDots22
Sabre Tek is right, it happens everyday by selling and buying of toons in Character Bazaar. Does it bother anyone ? No. So why the hell SP for PLEX bother you ? Let the players have their freedom.

In fact SP for PLEX is more friendly than a Bazaar method. Why ? In Bazaar you have to pay the whole price and cannot be creative ( choose name, etc). Purchasing SP you pay lesser price, you can buy exactly you want. Its like a hire purchase - Ie. you can pay 1 additional PLEX per month or 5 additional PLEX its your decision.In Bazaar you cannot buy a toon "hire purchasing" and pay each month 3 PLEX a whole year. But for those who cannot pay the whole price for a toon in a Bazaar but want to participate early - for them it would be the best thing in game.


Well of course he is, no one wouldn't expect supporting statements from your um, group.

Those past characters, those in the bazaar were in the game. They contributed to the sandbox with their time and their efforts. As they gained SP, they gained the ability to have a larger impact upon the sandbox by their character's abilities. The slow steady gain of SP acts as a governor upon the economy of the game. This does not limit abilities of their RL controllers. That is what makes the sandbox come alive, make it breath, feel and think. Your RL impatience is your problem, you wish to impose the unintended consequences upon everyone else.

The purchase of SP for PLEX will create short cuts across the sandbox in order to overcome the RL impatience of some at the expense of everyone else. You are free to choose to be impatient or not, that however does not give you the right to impose your desires on everyone else. If SP can be purchased for PLEX, everyone will purchase SP for PLEX, most everyone will be required to purchase SP for PLEX to maintain their position in the pecking order that is society. The weights upon the governor will have been removed.

As for the consequences, you do not care. That is not freedom. That is greed.

MorliDots22
Posted - 2011.07.02 15:45:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: Morar Santee
Awesome argumentation.

Of course it completely ignores the fact that games are fun because they enforce certain rules and every player is playing by those rules.

Only a complete moron would argue that a game of chess becomes more fun if you can replace all your pawns with queens by paying 15$. I mean, after all the queen is in the game already, so where could the harm be!? Omfg stop limiting my game experience!!!


If you play chess you should know that the forces in the beginning of the game are equal and change only if a player makes a mistake. Comparing chess to eve would mean that every player should start with the same material conditions and those conditions could only vanish if you make a mistake.

Playing chess you gain experience to think many turns forward and see combinations, but your ability to use the figures dont change. Your king always can move only 1 square. In EvE you also get to know how to react to the enemies strategy but your skill "operating the figures" also change. You can use t2 guns, special modules atc. In chess it would mean that by acquiring some master grade you are able to move your figures in other way that a chess amateur can .

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.02 15:52:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: MorliDots22
You all forget that there are people out there who are succesfull and dont want to wait many years to fly all ships and use all modules. CCP only offers a Character Bazaar where they can buy toons. But buying a alien toon with 100b sp is not the same as have one created. Why not let those who are willing to pay to pay for this ? Most of those who are against PLEX for SP would also prohibit all special services like 5 Star hotels, porsche cars and hunt. Yes let us all live in soviet union and nordkorea . Wait , what about freedom ? what about individual purpose ? The right to do what I want to do ? Why I should I drive a vw golf if I can afford a porsche ? Why should I sleep in a hostel if I can book a suite in a Hilton ? Just because the 80 % of people do it ? A clever businessman always see a possibility to maximise the profit - its the only true reason why WE have all those special services in RL - because there are people who are ready to pay for it. So wake up from your idealistic world view.


I've a radical idea here, so maybe sit down for it: how about playing the bloody game instead of whinging to get an easy mode implemented? It's just a thought. I'm out there I know, but I think playing the game could actually work.

MorliDots22
Posted - 2011.07.02 15:59:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: MorliDots22
Sabre Tek is right, it happens everyday by selling and buying of toons in Character Bazaar. Does it bother anyone ? No. So why the hell SP for PLEX bother you ? Let the players have their freedom.

In fact SP for PLEX is more friendly than a Bazaar method. Why ? In Bazaar you have to pay the whole price and cannot be creative ( choose name, etc). Purchasing SP you pay lesser price, you can buy exactly you want. Its like a hire purchase - Ie. you can pay 1 additional PLEX per month or 5 additional PLEX its your decision.In Bazaar you cannot buy a toon "hire purchasing" and pay each month 3 PLEX a whole year. But for those who cannot pay the whole price for a toon in a Bazaar but want to participate early - for them it would be the best thing in game.


Well of course he is, no one wouldn't expect supporting statements from your um, group.

Those past characters, those in the bazaar were in the game. They contributed to the sandbox with their time and their efforts. As they gained SP, they gained the ability to have a larger impact upon the sandbox by their character's abilities. The slow steady gain of SP acts as a governor upon the economy of the game. This does not limit abilities of their RL controllers. That is what makes the sandbox come alive, make it breath, feel and think. Your RL impatience is your problem, you wish to impose the unintended consequences upon everyone else.

The purchase of SP for PLEX will create short cuts across the sandbox in order to overcome the RL impatience of some at the expense of everyone else. You are free to choose to be impatient or not, that however does not give you the right to impose your desires on everyone else. If SP can be purchased for PLEX, everyone will purchase SP for PLEX, most everyone will be required to purchase SP for PLEX to maintain their position in the pecking order that is society. The weights upon the governor will have been removed.

As for the consequences, you do not care. That is not freedom. That is greed.


This is a real good argument, I must admit. Purchasing SP for PLEX will create a mass of high-skilled characters who werent there before. But how it will ruin the gameplay ? The strategy and cunning still come with game experience. I can start as a tackler with 1m SP or I can start as a tackler with 50m SP. In second variant I will be able to fly t2 ships and use t2 modules, I can try more combinations and have more fun. So the 2 variant has more "comfort".

Morar Santee
Posted - 2011.07.02 16:04:00 - [150]
 

Originally by: MorliDots22
Originally by: Morar Santee
Awesome argumentation.

Of course it completely ignores the fact that games are fun because they enforce certain rules and every player is playing by those rules.

Only a complete moron would argue that a game of chess becomes more fun if you can replace all your pawns with queens by paying 15$. I mean, after all the queen is in the game already, so where could the harm be!? Omfg stop limiting my game experience!!!


If you play chess you should know that the forces in the beginning of the game are equal and change only if a player makes a mistake. Comparing chess to eve would mean that every player should start with the same material conditions and those conditions could only vanish if you make a mistake.

Playing chess you gain experience to think many turns forward and see combinations, but your ability to use the figures dont change. Your king always can move only 1 square. In EvE you also get to know how to react to the enemies strategy but your skill "operating the figures" also change. You can use t2 guns, special modules atc. In chess it would mean that by acquiring some master grade you are able to move your figures in other way that a chess amateur can .


Have to hand it to you, it's awesome how you can formulate an answer and violently ignore the argument at hand. I'd say you're trolling, but it's just not smart enough for that.

The argument is:
Games have rules. Players ought to play these games by these same rules.
As with chess, every character in EVE starts out on equal footing - and you can develop it from there. Using the same set of rules as everyone else.
Now you argue you want to pay 15$ to break those rules, and pull assumptions out of your ass for why this is not detrimental to gameplay.

You are using the fact you are already allowed to bend the rules for a price as an argument for why you should be allowed to break them altogether. Instead of thankfully accepting the options laid out before you, you violently argue the game should be broken to suit your personal preferences.

So yeah.. go and play the effing game.


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