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Bad Harlequin
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.06.29 16:53:00 - [61]
 

Harlequin Holdings is pleased to announce...

VatGrown Industries


VGI is dedicated to providing you with the best you possible. We spare no expense in the care and feeding of our clones, because we know you expect the very best, and you expect it RIGHT NOW.

We have the finest in SpeedyGro technology, enabling us to crank out 50, 100, or 500m skillpoint clones in a matter of minutes. Our initial selection on the Clone Bazaar are stock offerings:

  • Trade Tycoon

  • Mining Foreman

  • Scientist

  • Capitol Pilot


Or why not go for our Gold Boutique Genes offering, the I Can Do Every Damn Thing(tm).

For the more expens- I'm sorry, exclusive among you, we have our KustomKlone service. Just specify the precise skill set, fleet of ships, appearance and location you'd like for your new self, and we'll come up with a tailored fit. Free consultation!

BUT THAT'S NOT ALL!


Hey, Low-Sec capsuleers, pirates, gankers, campers, and other wretched hives of scum and villainy! Been Condordokken one time too many? Can't be arsed with obtaining alternate pilots to run errands in Empire with? Maybe you just feel like raising a little hell in places you normally can't go, but in a clone with actual effective skills? Perhaps you just need to leave your infamous, -10 self behind once in a while, or start over with a clean, untraceable slate! This service is for you!

Our Tabula Rasa series is here with YOU in mind. Smiling, clean, totally-lacking-in-scary-scars clones with no criminal history and positive security ratings. Optional $ervices include, as with our Boutique series, the precise skillset of your choice and any or all ships you may desire - for an additional fee, of course, appropriate to value and included in the cash price on the Bazaar. You don't just have new toys - you have the experience and personal skill to use 'em!

Don't delay! Act now! We know you hate waiting! Operators are standing by to insta-generate the self you thought you could never have!

No warranty is expressed or implied in any way for you getting blown up and ragequitting in two days when you get your ships blowed up and your silly self podded with no current clone due to not knowing WTF you're doing. Harlequin Holdings, Gold Boutique Genes, and KustomKlone are trademarked by Bad Harlequin. I've no idea what the legal precedent for a virtual character owning a trademark is, but let's try it for lolz.

Sri Nova
Posted - 2011.06.29 18:17:00 - [62]
 

Why dollars for skillz is bad mkay .
 
Skill points dictate what your player can and cant do. When you first join the game your basically set to fly “poorly “ a frig. You invest time in either trying to fly frigs better,  or you go destroyers , or you try cruisers. Or say F^*K it and go industry. Either way you set a path on which way your going to play the game. This path is how you interact within eve using the game mechanics and the player driven market.

If skill points for dollars is introduced a method to skip these first few steps is introduced. Allowing players who pay the cash to leap frog to advanced content battle ships, carriers ,tech II , advanced industry etc. . This would hurt the player based economy making the cruisers and other entry level ships and tech increase in price or become scarce  due to a decrease in demand. That fundamental change right there is   enough to ixnay  the skill point for cash idea.

The reason there has not been many good counter points to this argument is because, this is a very fundamental change in the eve game mechanics. It would alter the way every one plays and would be difficult to to foresee how these changes effect the game . Change it will though,  and it will not be pretty . 

Instant uber alts another game changing effect  that would effect mission running , industry, and null sec in ways that are hard to imagine  but most if not all these changes would be bad.
 
Leap frogging  would allow players to forgo entire sections of game content  again changing how eve is played  and causing content to be ignored or not used.  Ie: The tech 1 market drying up  because the majority leaped frogged to tech II .

This would also encourage pay to win  because more and more players would be pressed to pay for these skills to be competitive in game thus creating a  skill race to the top . where in the end everyone has max skills  just so they could remain competitive in the game.  And when that happens eve would be fundamentally broken  and a shell of its former self.
 
The counter argument that purchasing in game chars already allow for this is flawed because, these chars are in limited supply and even fewer are maxed . Essentially the purchased char had to abide by the same mechanics as everyone else and is not an advanced character created out of the ether. At some point it had to participate and add to the mechanics that make eve function.

Skills for Cash is bad . It is just plain simple . To bad the ramifications of it are not as simple to foresee.
But if they were eve would not be the awesome game that it is .

Shilo Ticondrega
Posted - 2011.06.29 18:19:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Bad Harlequin
Harlequin Holdings is pleased to announce...





Awesome could not be better demonstrated

Sanwa Dufore
Posted - 2011.06.29 18:20:00 - [64]
 

Let’s be honest about this. How many people would really pay RL Money to gain SP? 1% maybe 2% and don’t quote me on the numbers but I’m taking an educated guess that there are roughly 20,000 to 30,000 Real people playing not accounts but real people. That’s playing now. So that’s 200-300 people spending money to gain SP faster in the current game. Is that ammmount really going to make a huge diffrence?

Now look at the amount of people this could draw to EVE. Oh wow you mean I can be somewhat competive with the players that have been around forever and all I have to do is spend some Cash.

That alone will draw tons of new players to EVE not just the ones who will pay EXTRA to play. Will some quit? Yes. How many is anybody’s guess. But I think more people will talk about quitting that actually quitting and more new players will Fill that hole three fold. CCP is a business plain and simple. If the draw more players to a game they make more in subs/Plex/selling SP. The more money they make the better they want to make the game to draw even more people in. All of this can benefit the players to. A market that has 30,000 people buying stuff or a market that has 60,000 people buying stuff. The people it will hurt the most are the ones selling there toons for ISK. I’m just guessing the people who are the most vocal about this have a toon for sale.

I have played a ton of other MMO’s and yes EVE is by far the best one. So why is it so far below some of the others? #1 it’s the learning curve of this game. Time fixes that. #2 it’s the ****ing skill system that you can’t ever overcome. People are absolutely right about a Vet. Vs Noob the Vet will will most of the time. So what’s the big deal?

But like it’s been said before. This game is about entertainment and making money. So we will see if “Greed is Good” and I hope they don’t start MT’s but they obviously are going to do something otherwise there wouldn’t be AUR. Why fight everything. Change is going to happen. Why not steer it to something that would draw in a larger player base.

Portmanteau
Gallente
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2011.06.29 18:41:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Humpink Omaristos
The overwhelming majority of players is either not opposed or doesn't care one way or another.



Wrong... the overwhelming majority of players do not post on the forums, that is the only thing you can say with confidence

Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.06.29 18:46:00 - [66]
 

God no, there is no shortage of high-SP characters on the market. Buy one of those if you want to skip years of training - otherwise, plug in +5s and deal with it. Obviously, it'd be nice to be able to buy a PLEX off the market and skip an entire month of skill training, but this would cause high-SP, focused characters to lose a LOT of value.

I absolutely do not support this idea.

Fredrick Engly
RaVal Thyokill Industies Inc.
Intergalactic Exports Group
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:23:00 - [67]
 

This idea is bonkers! RL cash should only be used for vanity items or stupid paintjobs

Winksos Transbithan
Posted - 2011.06.29 20:31:00 - [68]
 

I want to commend the OP for wading in with a thought he knew would be controversial and largely sticking to arguing the topic.

Getting more players into the game is the 800 lb. gorilla in the room. The PCU record has stayed pretty flat for a couple of years now; anecdotally I see players not in game cite the "steep learning curve" as a reason not to try EVE. Current players can be a great asset in CCP's business need to recruit new blood— that CCP did an inelegant at best job of asking us to help is a wasted opportunity, to say the least, but if we really care about maintaining a healthy community, we need to be willing to re-engage despite CCP's artlessness. I want EVE to be here 10 years from now— it won't be if it's just supported by the subs of the current community. (It also won't be if it ****es on the current community, which I understand is behind the current state of community unrest; CCP needs to make things right in that regard. It's a tough balance, is my point.)

Back to the SP sale idea: I like the Aurum super implant idea—they can be destroyed, etc. I wonder if there's another middle ground that honors the work of vets and rewards their longevity— namely, a player-run SP market. Whether it's selling back of skills on a Noble Market or CCP awarding SPs to sell/use based on subscription length (lack of a vet loyalty program is another important topic--this could be one aspect of that), a player-driven SP market would ensure that SPs are a finite commodity dependent on player length of service, and that some player is being rewarded as another player is paying (and CCP is earning revenue). Obviously, this (and any SP sales idea) would require regulation—certain skills not eligible for applying bought skills (the trial account list is a good place to start), limits on how many skill points a player could sell back, etc. etc. etc.

The bottom line is there needs to be a way to accelerate players past the frankly boring content into actually having fun in the game, or they will leave.

(Another way of doing that IMO would be streamlining the process where new players get matched with good corps, fixing the corp management functions so corps can recruit new players, leverage Incarna to immerse players, etc....another topic for another thread too.)

Cordo Draken
ABOS Industrial Enterprises
Posted - 2011.06.29 20:32:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Navarone Medion
Edited by: Navarone Medion on 27/06/2011 22:01:02
As still a relatively young player, I have to say, from my perspective atleast, this is something I feel strongly about.

Selling SP will break one of the major things that brings people back. People take breaks to train long queues sometimes, and its stupidity to offer a speedier alternative as it will result in loss of immersion, loss of cash as people will get bored quicker by attaining goals fast thus resulting in subs being ended quicker and a detrimental effect on the long term veterans who influence the game overall. Any scrub just jumping into any ship simply deprives the pilot of experience, and means a lack of balance between players.

To ask for such a thing is rather idiotic to be honest. You break the time investment many people have placed into their characters, as well as god knows how many other negative effects. Think before posting such suggestions.


THIS!!! Very well said. The OP and others like him lack the fundamental reality of development. When you start a new job, you don't slip your perspective boss a $20 and say, "teach me right now how to be a manager, then make me manager." You'd get laughed at. You're a vet and you still don't get it. Experience must be gained in time not dollars. As Navarone stated, players will lose interest faster if they are allowed to instantly achieve an end goal. CCP would Really canabalize their players, and the hard working vet player Will Quit and move on if others can gain instantly what they had to achieve in years. Admit that you just want to cheat... You've cheated in every game you've owned and are ****ed you have to wait like everyone else. I pity you and everyone else like you.

Tl;dr - Not Supported!


Bad Harlequin
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.06.29 21:02:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Cordo Draken
...players will lose interest faster if they are allowed to instantly achieve an end goal. CCP would Really canabalize their players, and the hard working vet player Will Quit and move on if others can gain instantly what they had to achieve in years.

I understand how you feel, but you seem to think that CCP doesn't know this when they may, in fact, be banking on it. Even if a pile of new players cycle in, drop cash, get bored, and cycle out, how many years of a subber would they be worth? What about the vets you mention who aren't paying a sub at all?

Not condemning nor condoning, and this depends on their being a steady supply of new blood cycling in. But I can see the reasoning: we don't have new subbers because noob life sucks. Really, it just sucks. The high barrier to entry (which is not the learning curve, btw) gets removed, maybe we get new people. Also, while they're here why not get more money out of 'em to offset the lifers.

Sanwa Dufore
Posted - 2011.06.29 22:17:00 - [71]
 

I understand what you’re saying about buying SP outright with Cash is cheating. Because well it is. There does how ever need to be some way of a player who started a game later to at least cover some not all but some of the ground between them and some of the older players. Buy implants that go further than +5 with AUR/ISK or cash something. I fully support them being destroyable. That’s one of the reasons why I love EVE so much. If you’re stupid to go to nullsec with a head full of them well it’s your own dumbass fault.

I do want to say something though about the whole pay to be better. Yes the skills would be there to operate the new ship but they still wouldn’t know how to fly it and just because you have been playing longer dosent always mean you know more.

So how is that any different from buying Plex selling it for isk to buy a toon in game? The only difference is yes them money goes to CCP instead of the player and you’re not stuck with somebody else’s mistakes. If you’re under 15milSP you’re pretty much stuck in care bear land for a year and a half while you train. Most new people quit once they find that out.

I still don’t think it would be right to pay $1k and be caught up with everybody but there really should be some way to close some of the gap.

On a side not why not give 2x or 3x SP as a part of the Buddy system on paid accounts not trial? But that should be in another thread.

Zargus
Posted - 2011.06.29 23:54:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Winksos Transbithan

(lack of a vet loyalty program is another important topic--this could be one aspect of that)


I wouldn't want to gloss over this.

Honestly, seeing both sides of this argument, and myself having mixed feelings on it, this is why the old timers get antsy about the idea (myself included). Why on earth should I change horses mid stream? The mechanics worked against me, and now offer to give it away? Frustrating from that perspective. But, again, my larger point in my last post, I have RL folk that just don't want to invest the time because "it would take me years to get where you are, so I'll play this other game, thanks though". Yes, there are some negatives to the game with a LARGE influx of HighSPn00bs, however...if it were regulated in such a way that only 1x skills (example) could have purchased points applied to, such as what you are saying...

Originally by: Winksos Transbithan

[...any SP sales idea) would require regulation—certain skills not eligible for applying bought skills (the trial account list is a good place to start), limits on how many skill points a player could sell back, etc. etc. etc.



+1

Mardock Daye
Posted - 2011.06.30 00:20:00 - [73]
 

Edited by: Mardock Daye on 30/06/2011 00:22:20
Hey,

Did I just read 1 mil sp for a plex? :D

That means, if I make 50 mil isk an hour and play 8 hours a week, I make 50 x 8 x 4 weeks x 12 months = 19.2 bil isk a year

19.2 bil isk devided by the price of a plex (about 380 mil now) = 50 plex a year!

Lets say I use 16 of those plex for ships, implants, subscription, whatever, but get about 16 mil sp a year for free like now (with implants):

1 month - 4.2m sp
3 months - 12.5m sp
3.33 months - 14.5m sp -> my main 10 month old char now, that would be 3x trainingspeed, woot!
6 months - 25.0m sp
12 months - 50.0m sp!!

Ofcourse I can train up for pve now, but hey I am Lazy: I have about 2 bil in assets, what if I buy 5 plex right away?

I'm guesing everyone with a bit of isk isn't stupid either and will buy as much plex as possible for their main and alts to max them out asap before grinding.
Eve players are greedy, especially those that try to win the game. They won't stop at making money for their alliance by selling new toons with plex and +10's,
which means that eventually plex will be insanely expensive. Bye free subscription and bye fast sp for future players. They will have to pay the price (double) and will stay away if smart.

Am I right or am I wrong?

Gr. Mardock

Ps: I thought I was lazy, but respect for those buying a $ 1000,- toon. Realy dumb to waste your money if you can play eve for free with a bit of scamming, running missions or mining while training up your toon though, but hey it's your $$

Zargus
Posted - 2011.06.30 00:30:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Cordo Draken

When you start a new job, you don't slip your perspective boss a $20 and say, "teach me right now how to be a manager, then make me manager." You'd get laughed at. [...] Experience must be gained in time not dollars.



Ok, let's put this in perspective. So, I have to work at my job making widget "X" for 4 years in order to be "better" at making widget "T"? Last I checked, practice made perfect; not linear time[wait] irrespective of effort. Not meaning to cause insult here, but, think about it in the context of just what you state here. The more you do something at your job, the better you get at it (yes, time[effort]).

An example comes to mind. I can imagine very few folks played SWG here? Anyway, I played a year or so at first release, and they had a multi tiered "If player fires the pistol" and the code looked and saw "If you have 0 points in it, then you have a 1% chance to increase a point; at 20 points, a 10% chance", etc, on until you got full pistol, THEN you could go work on rifle, and gain in that proficiency, etc. That is closer to real life, if we are to use real life examples to compare against. If I played more, then I got more proficient at something quicker than someone else.

No, that does not equal purchasing SP. That wasn't the point. Just pointing out that waiting X time for a SP pool to fill is not really anything but a game mechanic to give a player a means of having something to look forward to. That put everyone on the same playing field of "everyone has to wait the same time to get X skill". Problem isn't on a 1:1 basis. The problem more relates to how CCP gets more players interested in the game. Like it or lump it (me included), CCP has to do things that we aren't going to always agree with (my vote was apparently not accepted on the monocle!) in order to attract more business. There is always fall out, and negative response, but those margins don't (hopefully) compare to the positives. That is gamble that CCP has to take, and make.

As an aside, FWIW, SWG finally closes it's doors this Dec for making a catastrophic game mechanics change. They lost all the major guilds/player base of the old-timers over the last 2 years, and didn't manage to attract new players. They tried to compete with WoW.

Originally by: Cordo Draken

You're a vet and you still don't get it.



Or, perhaps vets have given this some serious thoughts, and are trying to look at both sides of the argument, and find too many pros, and not enough cons. We talk it out, and if some good rationale shows up to support how the negatives would be permanent in nature, rather than temporary influx of balance changes, then sure, I'd be persuaded more to the negative view.

Originally by: Cordo Draken

Admit that you just want to cheat... You've cheated in every game you've owned and are ****ed you have to wait like everyone else. I pity you and everyone else like you.

Tl;dr - Not Supported!



Harsh, and emotional response. Some of us like the concept of SP sales, but not outright "here, buy bazillions of SP for $1" kinda thing. I am talking about severely regulated, limited in scope means of jump-starting n00bs into a Drake, at most sort of thing. Then, charge them an arm and a leg to do it. Give them something that closes the gap a little so my buds aren't so annoyed as to walk away. But, give them more than just enough to hobble in a cheap T1 frig. Give them a chance to spend serious major bucks (years worth of SP, costs a years worth of dollars; limit on "can't spend purchased SP on /this/ skill" type of regulations)

I can imagine in some folks eyes, your statement then applies to everyone who buys PLEX for ISK infusions? Or, the Bazaar high SP char purchases? They cheated the system by having a high SP toon insta-grat for play.




Cordo Draken
ABOS Industrial Enterprises
Posted - 2011.06.30 01:46:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Zargus

Now, the fine art of balancing "How do we [CCP] get more players?" Selling SP is yet another avenue to appeal to something that even as a 2006 character, I can look back on, and appreciate the struggle of "Geez, it will take me a year+ just to pilot something 'fun' to fly with my buddies" factor.

Looking at it from that angle, let's say I talk a buddy into playing (finally) and he's /just/ starting out. I am cruising around in my T3 having a blast (figuratively and literally!) and it will take quite some time before he even comes close to my level.

That isn't to say it isn't workable, but, it's awfully discouraging to the new guy when I have so much cooler toys than he does, and it will be 2 years before he is able to even play on that level. I will still be training, and now 2 years ahead as well, he is permanently behind.


A friend starting 2 years behind you isn't their problem. And it's an advantage to your friend, that you're there to help him... He'll excell that much faster, assuming you know what you are doing. As far as your incentive... You now have a RL friend playing along side you! Is that not enough? Since this is a MMO. Besides, it will only take him around a month if you help him focus train, to become an effective combat pilot, PvE or PvP as there are plenty of different roles he could fill along the way. Plus, the great learning curve that does exist... You can't exactly cram down his throat in short time... There should be a balance. I would even wager his toon will have the SP before he'd know how to properly apply it.

The real issue for player retention, is immersion into the game. As mentioned, players are pretty much required to think on their own as to what to do. Saddly this is a problem for most people. CCP is trying to figure out how to get new players to want to get immersed without overwhelming them and freaking people out.

It is tough being a noob, and could use some SP love... I agree there, but most people will tell you it's better to earn your experience vs having it handed to you. People don't respect "Free or quickly obtained" stuff. We just don't appreciate it as much. So, what to do?

In past Assembly Hall topics, Immersion in this case, having a more in depth career path explained seemed to be popular. My example was for the "Military" pilot. An in game video of the military pilot fighting for his race in a 1 month term of service, noob vs noob style FW with free ships, clones, fighting in a separate set of systems, where he would be more guided and be taught combat, could earn ISK, LP, Ships, Sec status, and perhaps bonus SP. This mode of introduction to Eve gets a player more actively invovled, develop friends in the service and give him goals. There was much more details in the posts but all were good reads.

Eve is a different kind of game... It's not for everyone... The bar of thinking is higher, the risks are higher, goals are longer term... But that's what makes it so great and loved (barring future poor decisions on CCP's part).

OP, Stop trying to make this a mindless shooter style game. It's not. Quick gratification of SP with RL cash is like Cumming before you can even get your pants off. Stop playing Devil's advocate for your own Lawyerish arguement and agenda. The survey of readers by percentage have argued against you... It's for a reason. The small validity you think you have is based upon noob status. It is an issue for noobs, but throwing money at it is not the solution, as I've shown, immersion is more the issue and quick SP in large amounts counters immersion. Speak for the real problem, don't create new ones.

- Peace

Capsuleer Newton
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.30 03:34:00 - [76]
 

Laughing
Originally by: Fredrick Engly
This idea is bonkers! RL cash should only be used for vanity items or stupid paintjobs



and cheeseburgers, and lots of it.

Sural Alpha
Posted - 2011.06.30 03:55:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
OP should go play WOW or some other dumbed down MMO, (perhaps FarmVille?) Leave EVE for those who enjoying earning their status in the game.

This is where you, and most other opponents, are confused.
You didn't earn anything because it took exactly zero effort on your part. You simply paid and waited for your "status". Which is exactly what the OP is proposing, pay and wait, except his proposed wait period would be significantly shorter. To make up for that one could conceivably be asked to pay more.

Mouk Sarn
Posted - 2011.06.30 04:38:00 - [78]
 

Edited by: Mouk Sarn on 30/06/2011 04:39:19
I'd like to get my spouse into the game and would appreciate if we could just buy a couple years worth of SP. Buying a "used" character isn't an option for her nor is starting from scratch.

Outright sale of hundreds of millions of SP may not be the way to go but I really do hope that CCP comes up with a way to let people buy some SP to skip the low end game.

Perhaps an older player could sponsor a new player once. Where a new player will be eligible to purchase 1/5 - as an example - of the SP the sponsor has and it can only be done once per account. So if I have 100 mil SP and I sponsor my wife then she can buy up to 20 mil SP. Once I sponsored her I am locked in and can't sponsor another character regardless of whether the sponsored character used up all sponsored SP. The sponsored character could be allowed to only make the purchase once so they have to decide right there whether they want all the allowed SP or not.

There are a bazillion ways to make SP purchases work without to shaft the game.


Shaira Skatan
Serenity Prime
Cascade Probable
Posted - 2011.06.30 08:12:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Humpink Omaristos
Edited by: Humpink Omaristos on 27/06/2011 18:27:09
Originally by: TheTravler
That would give an advantage to someone for spening RL money. We as a community DO NOT WANT non vanity items being bought with RL money.

Actually, what really is true is that there is a very vocal minority who rages against Microtransactions on the forums.



Actually, what really is evident is that there is a very minor minority (~5.02%) of the vocal playerbase who vote "yes" for Microtransactions on the forums:

[CROWD SOURCE] Microtransactions (1st Vote Result Counted)

Originally by: Humpink Omaristos

This is just to put things in perspective. The overwhelming majority of players is either not opposed or doesn't care one way or another.



--insert-data-here--

Besides which, if that's the case, that the overwhelming majority of players are either not opposed or don't care one way or another, then it goes without saying that the vocal minority who do care enough to participate in the forums should have their say heard, respected, and heeded.
Since as every person has theoretically the same "weight" of voice in Eve Online, by means of the CSM and by means of the forums, that majority who apparently don't care, are essentially opting out of making their voice heard, so therefore their unheard "vote" doesn't have meaning, as their "vote" is synonymous with the concept of "null".

Therefore in the absence of the data to support your theory, we can only go by the vocal minority who do care enough to provide enough data to produce a theory:

[CROWD SOURCE] Microtransactions (1st Vote Result Counted)

We can also go by the views of the CSM whose role it is to represent the playerbase. And the truth is that the CSM cohesively agree that MT should be at best vanity only, and preferably no MT at all.

Originally by: Humpink Omaristos

Originally by: TheTravler
That would give an advantage to someone for spening RL money.


Why shouldn't people who are willing to spend RL money have an advantage? Gaining an advantage due to one's financial position is the whole point! People who have RL money to spend IRL have an advantage over those who don't. Players who have ISK to spend in-game have an advantage over those who don't.

Money buys advantage everywhere, that's the natural order of things.




Correction: Money buys advantage almost everywhere. Some notable exceptions are games and ideally also sports.

By saying "everywhere", then you are saying that when I play Monopoly against my family members, which say includes an 8 year old child who has only a few dollars of pocket money in her possession, that all my opponents should naturally agree that if I buy more boxes of the game (effectively pay Hasbro more money), then I should be able to accumulate the monopoly money from all the additional boxes I have in my possession, and use those additional funds to have higher buying power which will inevitably allow me to win without challenge.

PLEX to buy ISK from other players (which by the way wasn't produced from "thin air" like with the NEX store items, since a player actually played the game to earn that ISK) is an allowable exception, because it provides CCP with money that would otherwise go entirely toward a black market. Allowing MT purchase of SP or items on the other hand, is CCP's attempt to cut into the player-driven economy that EVE is famous for, and was designed to encourage.

This is not real life. This is a computer game. Therefore real-life comparisons have little weight. However I feel that my comparison to Monopoly "holds at least some water", because rather than comparing apples to oranges, I am comparing one game to another game.

Spaceship Persona Ogeko
Posted - 2011.06.30 12:59:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Cordo Draken
Originally by: Zargus

In past Assembly Hall topics, Immersion in this case, having a more in depth career path explained seemed to be popular. My example was for the "Military" pilot. An in game video of the military pilot fighting for his race in a 1 month term of service, noob vs noob style FW with free ships, clones, fighting in a separate set of systems, where he would be more guided and be taught combat, could earn ISK, LP, Ships, Sec status, and perhaps bonus SP. This mode of introduction to Eve gets a player more actively invovled, develop friends in the service and give him goals. There was much more details in the posts but all were good reads.




This.

The flaw in this thread is that people seem to have the pre-conception if SP can be bought then it must be for currency, and it must be available to everyone.

Personally I think the new player experience sucks.

New players should have access to Career Arcs which when completed offer either pre-set skills or skill points to spend on whatever they like.

As different skills are more time intensive then its a fairly simple equation to balance out how SPs can be spent. 1000 SP put into a rank 1 skill nets you 1000 SP advancement. 1000 SP into a rank 2 skill nets you 500 SP advancement. etc.

I strongly believe that new players should have the option to accelerate their characters. I also strongly feel this acceleration should come from time invested. Time sat at the keyboard playing the game.

ISK sinks can remain in that when you are offered skill point acceleration, on completion of a Career Arc, you still have to pay for the skill books.

Every MMO has some evils. Career Arcs would be a chore to some folks for sure. I suspect they would be a chore that teaches the Genuine New Player™ a lot about the game.

It is fairly common in other games that your buddies help Power Level you when you first start. This would also become possible in a more meaningful way in eve as well - thus helping our ever important community bond.

I am totally against a free for all SP buying frenzy.
I am totally for a system where new players get a leg up - a system where CCP controls the max possible gain via mechanics and content.

Yeep
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.06.30 13:11:00 - [81]
 

If you're trying to measure your success in Eve by your total number of skillpoints you're doing it wrong. Your worth comes from what those skillpoints allow you to do, not the size of your number and if you're unable or unwilling to accept that then yes, Eve is not the game for you. Even then, past a certain number skillpoints just gain you breadth not depth, and you can buy breadth already by subscribing multiple accounts.

The idea that new players need to be able to catch up in raw skillpoints to veterans is stupid and possibly even harmful to the game. Sure you might get a few more people subscribing if they could throw a credit card around and fly a battleship in their first week but they won't be the kind of person who will stick around once there are no more goals for them to aim for. That kind of player might make today's numbers look good but it isn't good for the long term health of a game. And what about the beginners who aren't willing to throw real money around in the first couple of months of game time? How do they deal with an Eve where nobody produces basic equipment any more?

And on the subject of the existing character market, that differs from buying skillpoints in a number of important ways. The fact that its no longer your character, you might not like the portrait or the name, is an important barrier to entry. Its clear even from this thread that people are unwilling to give up their identity for a boost in skillpoints and that naturally limits the number of people buying characters (which is a good thing). Secondly the character market is a product of the current condition of the game. If a patch (or even just a change in community knowledge) comes in and radically boosts a certain playstyle everyone is starting on an even footing, including most of those who buy a character, because nobody was forewarned. Sure there might be some people who coincidentally trained the new "correct" thing, or even people who had the foresight to do so, but with skillpoints for cash anyone would be able to instantly jump on board with the flavour of the month massively reducing the diversity that makes Eve special.

CyberGh0st
Minmatar
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2011.06.30 13:57:00 - [82]
 

Edited by: CyberGh0st on 30/06/2011 13:58:34

Originally by: Boomer Aires


Quote:
[...]EVE has 300k accounts[...]

I think your are talking about total registered users ever (accumulated), but how many are active.
If you can give me a prove, I'll change my mind




There were 364875 active paying subscriptions in March 2011
Note that these are paid for accounts, not actual players, there are of course many multiple accounts, altho I believe last number said was 1/4 of the players have more than 1 accounts ( since then it may have increased tho ).

I receive these numbers directly from CCP, even when they are going down ( which has happened several times, but never for long and not by that much, up until now, I am really curious what the next numbers will be :p ).

You can get some more info on subs on my site :

MMOData.net

You can also verify some of the numbers by checking the "eve quarterly economic newsletter"


MorliDots22
Posted - 2011.06.30 14:18:00 - [83]
 

Edited by: MorliDots22 on 30/06/2011 14:36:50
Edited by: MorliDots22 on 30/06/2011 14:23:47
Dear CSM and CCP and coplayers,

Now you train about 2m SP in a month. That would be aquivalent to 1 PLEX aka 30 days game time. Why not sell those 2m SP instantly for 1 PLEX ? Whats the diffenrence about getting those SP instantly or in 1 month of waiting time ? The advantages are clear - you avoid "empty skill time" and can start instantly with PvP and other things.

Of course this will bring kind of non-equal between those who can afford to buy them and those who cannot. But let us be honest - in real life we have everywhere first and second class. If you fly by plane or take a train you can choose to pay about 50% more for comfort. A second class and first class will both achieve the "destination point" so there is no difference. A company council knows that 80-90 % are second class and 10-20 % first. Now we have no first class in EvE. So CCP cannot take profit of those who are willing to pay for this comfort. Economically it is not good for a company to waste possible profit and Im speaking of 20 % of playerbase who would eagerly pay for this feature.

I agree completely with the prohibition of special things like golden ammo and such because then the "destination point" of first and second class is not the same. But getting a month amount of SP for the price of 30 days of game time doesnt disbalance the game, it only brings comfort.

Im supporting your idea +1

Alejan Gerakh
Minmatar
Clan Hyena
Posted - 2011.06.30 14:31:00 - [84]
 

Edited by: Alejan Gerakh on 30/06/2011 14:33:29
I think the biggest issue with this, from my perspective, is the idea that established vets with massive ISK reserves and/or the means to acquire even more ISK would just use this mechanic to further reinforce their skillpoint advantages.

Otherwise, I think it's just vets who don't want new players to be able to pay to skip ahead.

The only argument against letting new players get more skillpoints through PLEX, from my perspective, is the idea that waiting for skillpoints can let one play the game at each ship class size, instead of just pay for the ability to fly a battleship and subsequently buy the battleship, skipping ships that really are useful.

Besides, if someone who does that plans to just do missions, anyway, they end up being forced into tiny ships, anyway, since they have to work up through the factions. Which definitely shouldn't be changed, as this, to me, is part of the richness of the sandbox.

Even those who would do this and jump into PvP- they're inexperienced, and would probably lose battleship after battleship before they learn to use something smaller or more specialized (battlecruisers tend to be one of the most popular PvP ships, for instance), anyway. Ultimately, forcing a player to progress slowly up through the ship classes gives a chance for a player to respect each ship class (not that they will, but I did say 'chance'). There's plenty of people who can fight very effectively in a Rifter, for instance, tackling battlecruisers with experience.

Portmanteau
Gallente
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2011.06.30 14:54:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Alejan Gerakh
Edited by: Alejan Gerakh on 30/06/2011 14:33:29
I think the biggest issue with this, from my perspective, is the idea that established vets with massive ISK reserves and/or the means to acquire even more ISK would just use this mechanic to further reinforce their skillpoint advantages.

Otherwise, I think it's just vets who don't want new players to be able to pay to skip ahead.

The only argument against letting new players get more skillpoints through PLEX, from my perspective, is the idea that waiting for skillpoints can let one play the game at each ship class size, instead of just pay for the ability to fly a battleship and subsequently buy the battleship, skipping ships that really are useful.

Besides, if someone who does that plans to just do missions, anyway, they end up being forced into tiny ships, anyway, since they have to work up through the factions. Which definitely shouldn't be changed, as this, to me, is part of the richness of the sandbox.

Even those who would do this and jump into PvP- they're inexperienced, and would probably lose battleship after battleship before they learn to use something smaller or more specialized (battlecruisers tend to be one of the most popular PvP ships, for instance), anyway. Ultimately, forcing a player to progress slowly up through the ship classes gives a chance for a player to respect each ship class (not that they will, but I did say 'chance'). There's plenty of people who can fight very effectively in a Rifter, for instance, tackling battlecruisers with experience.


I hate to argue this side of the debate but just for accuracy's sake...

I believe the "vet's advantage" issue with this is irrelevant TBH. Yes vets will be able to increase their skill points at will but it will only give them the ability to do more things, not do them better. There's only so many SPs than pertain to flying a hulk or a hurricane, on purely skillpoint terms, a newer guy in an omen who bought several million SPs and applied them correctly will as good as the vet who did the same .

The real issue here is something else... player retention, goals get met too easily and quickly and them players get bored and **** off

Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.06.30 17:04:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: MorliDots22
Edited by: MorliDots22 on 30/06/2011 14:36:50
Edited by: MorliDots22 on 30/06/2011 14:23:47
Dear CSM and CCP and coplayers,

Now you train about 2m SP in a month. That would be aquivalent to 1 PLEX aka 30 days game time. Why not sell those 2m SP instantly for 1 PLEX ? Whats the diffenrence about getting those SP instantly or in 1 month of waiting time ? The advantages are clear - you avoid "empty skill time" and can start instantly with PvP and other things.

Of course this will bring kind of non-equal between those who can afford to buy them and those who cannot. But let us be honest - in real life we have everywhere first and second class. If you fly by plane or take a train you can choose to pay about 50% more for comfort. A second class and first class will both achieve the "destination point" so there is no difference. A company council knows that 80-90 % are second class and 10-20 % first. Now we have no first class in EvE. So CCP cannot take profit of those who are willing to pay for this comfort. Economically it is not good for a company to waste possible profit and Im speaking of 20 % of playerbase who would eagerly pay for this feature.

I agree completely with the prohibition of special things like golden ammo and such because then the "destination point" of first and second class is not the same. But getting a month amount of SP for the price of 30 days of game time doesnt disbalance the game, it only brings comfort.

Im supporting your idea +1


That isn't a real argument and you're a moron. Go play the other games that give you instant gratification when you spend RL cash. EVE is not WoT.

As it is, you can buy a massive pile of GTCs and buy a character. Why not do that?

MorliDots22
Posted - 2011.06.30 17:43:00 - [87]
 




That isn't a real argument and you're a moron. Go play the other games that give you instant gratification when you spend RL cash. EVE is not WoT.

As it is, you can buy a massive pile of GTCs and buy a character. Why not do that?


Butthurt detected,

A month amount of SP for a PLEX is a comfort. With this new players can achieve the same amount of SP as those who play since beta. Plus CCP makes profit. Statistically 20% of playerbase would pay for it. Ergo CCP makes 20% more profit. I as a player am happy to start PvP with most ships. Its a win-win situation. Plus its a basic rule of a market. Why do you think we have first and second class in RL ? The provider of goods could also make just one class like in soviet union but they dont. There are always people outside who are ready to pay more for additional comfort. When you take a plane you can choose between buisness and economy class. In both cases you will get to your destination. Same here. Those who dont see it are either blind or have their own interest in game.

But its a reality of life.

Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.06.30 19:52:00 - [88]
 

Edited by: Andski on 30/06/2011 19:57:52
Originally by: MorliDots22



That isn't a real argument and you're a moron. Go play the other games that give you instant gratification when you spend RL cash. EVE is not WoT.

As it is, you can buy a massive pile of GTCs and buy a character. Why not do that?


Butthurt detected,

A month amount of SP for a PLEX is a comfort. With this new players can achieve the same amount of SP as those who play since beta. Plus CCP makes profit. Statistically 20% of playerbase would pay for it. Ergo CCP makes 20% more profit. I as a player am happy to start PvP with most ships. Its a win-win situation. Plus its a basic rule of a market. Why do you think we have first and second class in RL ? The provider of goods could also make just one class like in soviet union but they dont. There are always people outside who are ready to pay more for additional comfort. When you take a plane you can choose between buisness and economy class. In both cases you will get to your destination. Same here. Those who dont see it are either blind or have their own interest in game.

But its a reality of life.


A month or two? More like 2 years of skill training within moments. In any case, you're an idiot. As I've said 3 times in this thread now - buy a character.

Go play another game if you want non-vanity MT.

Let's not forget that the numbers you laboriously crunched over your drool are nonsense - given the rage over something as simple as vanity MT, I can see CCP losing a substantial number of their subscribers if they did sell SP injections for AUR. Many of those would be the same people who regularly drop $20 on character transfers, buy GTCs, and pay for multiple accounts.

MorliDots22
Posted - 2011.06.30 20:40:00 - [89]
 



Let's not forget that the numbers you laboriously crunched over your drool are nonsense - given the rage over something as simple as vanity MT, I can see CCP losing a substantial number of their subscribers if they did sell SP injections for AUR. Many of those would be the same people who regularly drop $20 on character transfers, buy GTCs, and pay for multiple accounts.


Let's look at the situation through "positive attitude":
What is a MT in the "demographic" mean?

This is a "social" layer of players who are so spoiled in the real world, they spend real money on any garbage in the virtual.
This is not good? Maybe not right (especially when it gives the donators Advantages in game).
Ie There are hundreds of players who are bad guys that have spent and will spend the bucks ... used because they spend having fun.

How behave CCP in this situation?

Can be dealt with or given. But can it be eradicated ? That means money in the hands of bad guys swim to other bad guys - RMTsellers that sell suits, earned by farming, Boating, "Taxes", moons, etc.
And what to do CCP?
It creates conditions for donators to pour their money into CCP directly, because:
- CCP can sell them cheaper suits (in principle, yes, can arrange this)
- CCP can sell their claims safer (through secure and "righteous" / formal tools)
- CCP can sell their claims with less hassle (no bent tricks associated with the fear of ebay be banned)
- CCP can offer for these bucks more and unique products (monocles / thongs, and maybe even a personal emblem on the tongue (well, maybe in the future it will also become available)

You can of course greatly wonder how it will affect the gameplay simple Pilots (may affect .. maybe not .. Maybe the game will unorganized mass-dude Titans? Yeah, maybe it's not good ... And you may receive an unorganized mass of reindeer machariels ? Yeah, and it may even be fun .. Some Frozen corpse will now be a monocle? Oh, what to do with them ...: facepalm:)

Duc, can cause the other?
Let's answer honestly, who's suffered from the fact that CCP creates the conditions for a simple and angry putting bucks of donators in CCP pockets for those who are too tight? With whom CCP start to compete for the bucks of crazy rich players?
Which, of course, "was, is and will be" according to CU. And their business is "merchandising" was, is and will (of course).
With whom CCP begins to redistribute the (the market) flow of dollars, is thrown from ancient, centuries?
Who is this "wronged competitor" who "trod the corn?"
Think.
Think.
"Sand is running out";)
By the power of negative energy, and throw out the hysteria butthurt - notably that it is some "vociferous" competitor;).
Who thought of - can not continue to think and play safely.
: Lol:
Well, replacing a "seller claims the" other "seller's claims." And what?
Well there is one seller claims to fashion goods "vanity" like a monocle, and the other does not. And What?
Well donators give their bucks not "under the table" to ebay but openly to CCP on the other bit rate. And what?
The world turned upside down? (Duc He was, is and will be given support with!)
No, the market processing. A hue and cry, as if doomsday had begun.
: Lol:
Something like that ...

Humpink Omaristos
Posted - 2011.06.30 21:03:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Shaira Skatan
Besides which, if that's the case, that the overwhelming majority of players are either not opposed or don't care one way or another, then it goes without saying that the vocal minority who do care enough to participate in the forums should have their say heard, respected, and heeded.
Since as every person has theoretically the same "weight" of voice in Eve Online, by means of the CSM and by means of the forums, that majority who apparently don't care, are essentially opting out of making their voice heard, so therefore their unheard "vote" doesn't have meaning, as their "vote" is synonymous with the concept of "null".


Obviously you would like to argue that those who don't care are opposed because that fits your desires and your view of things. There's just this minor issue that any kind of votes are just like online petitions, completely meaningless because they hold no real power. What is happening right now is exactly what CCP predicted, a hurricane in a waterglass. A few hundred players out of thousands are going emo. The rest of the player base is cool with the change because if they weren't they would speak up. Business as usual.

In reality silence means acceptance. Those who oppose MT are on the defensive thus they have to be vocal. Those who support MT don't have to do anything because they are with CCP's view, they don't have to emorage for MT because MT is already happening. Simple really.

I think the argument in support of MT has been presented in a clear and logical fashion. The opposition on the other hand went all emotional. What gives me solace is that your $15/month will pay to support MT implementation whether you agree with it or not. Regardless of all the forum warrioring, you and others are doing on here, you will not biomass your toon and walk away.

No matter how you and others will try to spin that, CCP and those in support of MT will ultimately win whether CCP will sell SP or not. I'll be smiling thinking about that every time I see the login screen.


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