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Backtosh Redclaw
Posted - 2011.06.28 12:24:00 - [31]
 

Originally players started with between 890,000 and 912,000 SP based on what they chose for race/etc. Rather than creating a giant screwball with buying skillpoints, provide a bank of discretionary skillpoints that can be applied to get them going, to the tune of around 400,000. Essentially giving them the chance to pick up those all important first skills without having to wait while they train to continue the tutorials, and enough to spare for a few options.

Frogzuk
Gallente
Federation Security
Posted - 2011.06.28 15:01:00 - [32]
 

NO extra sp for cash ...

i have over 100 mil sp, taken me 6 yrs to get to this stage, why should i be penalized for my time and investment in the game only for someone with very little intrest in the game, logging on and buying 20 mil sp at the drop of a hat ... what is the point ? besides, each ship is unique, learning to fly a frig i.e. scouting will improve you as a pvp pilot later ... buying skills = jumping ship classes too fast .. obtain skill learn how to use ship and mods be a better pilot all round ......

I think the skill system is a a part of makes eve good ... tbh

Sanwa Dufore
Posted - 2011.06.28 15:49:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: The Pteradactyl
+6 implant - 250 mil
+7 implant - 1 bil
+8 implant - 2.5 bil
+9 implant - 5 bil
+10 implant - 10 bil

Looks go to me. Plus they can be destroyed.


First off let me say that Iím not an old grizzled vet of this game I started back in 09 when I first found out about this game. I got my char up to about 8mil SP then I quit playing because no matter how much I played or how much I put into the game I only gained SP so fastÖ. You know great on you for players out there that have been on this game since beta without you this game wouldnít be here. Now with that said. Why not do something like this if anything it will lower the price of plex slightly because more people want Isk to buy the implantís that means you get to play more for less. If you want to keep the player driven community going then make these itemís player creatable CCP wins because they sell more plex Community wins because you will have more items in the community and you will keep more people playing for longer. Yes there will be some conís like guys with 80mil sp running around with a head full of +10ís but if there destroyable why the hell not. It will give the opportunity for players who would like to be more involed with the game a chance to get into more aspects of the game. I mean seriously people why the hell should it take almost a year of subs to finally get into the game. Right now it takes about a year for 12mil SP maybe with these implants you could get 20-30mil SP a year. It would take years for a player like me to catch up to a player that doesnít have a head full of +10ís and has been playing for long time.

Humpink Omaristos
Posted - 2011.06.28 16:06:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Iteration X
This is circular... the idea is "stupid," or not, in the context of the game, on its own merits. You're asserting that CCP isn't stupid. Why? Because they don't do stupid things! And why is this not a stupid thing? Because CCP isn't stupid! Logic fail.

Just because you conveniently twisted it into a circular argument doesn't make it so.
Reality has already proven that CCP isn't stupid. EVE is still here after all these years and after so many other MMOs (even big studio titles) folded. Not only is EVE here but it created enough cash flow to pretty much fund the development of DUST. So yes, CCP isn't stupid. They will not introduce MT which will slaughter the cash cow that is EVE. I am surprised that this even needs to be said.


Originally by: Iteration X
Now, a large chunk of people pay for skillpoints. We must assume it's large, or CCP isn't doing it, seeing as they're not dumb and all and this is going to work out well for them, right?

It doesn't have to be large at all. The code to issue skillpoints is already there, that's how we got unallocated skillpoints for that one downtime/rollback and for the learning skills. Creating code to swap PLEX for SP isn't resource intensive and it's there for eternity to come. I obviously don't have hard numbers but I would imagine that 100 people pouring in $1,000 into converting PLEX to SP would easily pay for the code. Everything else is gravy.

Would you drop a grand into a new toon if it is exactly as you want it? I know I would, but I also know that many of the players I know wouldn't because they can't even afford their current sub begging for someone to spot them a PLEX so they can keep going to fleets.

PLEX for SP isn't for the masses, it would never be. It's the Ferrari vs that Ford Taurus the majority of the population is driving. Still, Ferrari is profitable even though it isn't common, same with PLEX to SP.

Originally by: Frogzuk
i have over 100 mil sp, taken me 6 yrs to get to this stage, why should i be penalized for my time and investment in the game only for someone with very little intrest in the game, logging on and buying 20 mil sp at the drop of a hat ... what is the point ?

It's interesting that you feel that someone else obtaining skillpoints quicker than you did would penalize you. Do you mind explaining what penalty is applied to you every time someone obtains a character they didn't wait 6 years for? Do you cringe every time a character is sold on the current character bazaar?

Frankly, your feelings on this aren't relevant when it comes to the discussion what a company should do for profit and growth. You asked about the point. The point is growth. Growth that hasn't existed in the game for quite some time. If you can't see why growth is relative and important then that's a discussion for another topic or perhaps some basic business courses.

Originally by: Frogzuk
I think the skill system is a a part of makes eve good ... tbh

I highly doubt you would have the same view if you were just starting the game today. You don't want people to buy SP because you don't want someone to be up there with you. That's an OK attitude, but let's be honest in saying that it is about you and not the game itself.

Humpink Omaristos
Posted - 2011.06.28 16:20:00 - [35]
 

Oops, missed replying to this;

Originally by: Iteration X
So. Having removed a huge portion of the demand for all those items [frigs and T1 items] ... how exactly does this not affect the economy again?


I think it's fair to say that if there was a PLEX to SP conversion many new players would skip frigates altogether. Builders would need to adapt to the increased demand for cruisers and BC and the decreased demand in Frigates.

PLEX to SP would affect the economy, though I don't see how it would negatively affect the economy. PLEX to SP would bring in additional players, players that are not just the n-th alt of an existing player. There would be increased demand for products. That demand may not be on the low end of T1, but so what?

My guess would be that few players would go all out and get the SP needed to get into a fleet fit BS, but I would also guess that many players would drop a couple PLEXes into augmenting their fitting skills, or get to T2 guns faster or whatever.

There will be a shift in demand but new players create additional demand and existing players will demand other goods. The economy won't be doomed.

Randal Eirikr
Posted - 2011.06.28 16:22:00 - [36]
 

The minute I see this in the game, I'd leave. It defeats the entire purpose and feeling of EVE, patience, and working towards goals.


NOT INSTANT GRATIFICATION.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.28 16:33:00 - [37]
 

Where do these sandbox breaking ideas come from? Do put some thought into these ideas. Removal of the time needed to train will impact the sandbox in a number of ways.

Progression in Eve, difficulty, SPs, money required to do things, are not linear and for good reason. Diminishing returns is in some areas, and increasing returns in others are an important aspect of the sandbox economy, much of its balance depends on this. Buy purchasing SP, that balance becomes distorted, some parts of the sandbox will be skipped over and additional, unexpected demands will be placed in other areas.

Selling SPs is short sighted and will have a number of unfortunate expected consequences, and possibly even greater number of unexpected consequences.

Llyandrian
Amarr
Livestock Science Exchange
Posted - 2011.06.28 16:44:00 - [38]
 


Humpink Omaristos
Posted - 2011.06.28 16:47:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Randal Eirikr
The minute I see this in the game, I'd leave. It defeats the entire purpose and feeling of EVE, patience, and working towards goals. NOT INSTANT GRATIFICATION.

Because clearly, clicking on a skill and waiting for it to complete involves work. Rolling Eyes
News Flash; EVE is about entertainment and to most waiting years for something to happen simply isn't entertaining.

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Selling SPs is short sighted and will have a number of unfortunate expected consequences, and possibly even greater number of unexpected consequences.

Your reply contained 122 words and 738 characters (including spaces) yet you failed to mention even a single "unfortunate" consequence. Since you didn't actually contribute anything to the discussion I'll take the liberty to make a more personal suggestion and say that you should go into politics.

Gevlin
Minmatar
Lone Star Exploration
Lone Star Partners
Posted - 2011.06.28 16:55:00 - [40]
 

I am for Micro Transactions but this Idea is bad

A: Removes the biggest Isk Sink from the game
b: Prevents Play for Free isk grinders to have access to the game, there for destroying the plex market,

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.28 16:58:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Humpink Omaristos
Originally by: Randal Eirikr
The minute I see this in the game, I'd leave. It defeats the entire purpose and feeling of EVE, patience, and working towards goals. NOT INSTANT GRATIFICATION.

Because clearly, clicking on a skill and waiting for it to complete involves work. Rolling Eyes
News Flash; EVE is about entertainment and to most waiting years for something to happen simply isn't entertaining.

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Selling SPs is short sighted and will have a number of unfortunate expected consequences, and possibly even greater number of unexpected consequences.



Your reply contained 122 words and 738 characters (including spaces) yet you failed to mention even a single "unfortunate" consequence. Since you didn't actually contribute anything to the discussion I'll take the liberty to make a more personal suggestion and say that you should go into politics.


Ok, want one? Noob enters game, buys his SPs up to doing lvl 4 missions. Noob now never needs to buy frigs, cruisers, BCs, all the ammo, the fittings, the risks to progress his way up through the game. He does not need to purchase ANY of the products created by players that produce those lower level items. He does not have to deal with the risks that allow his goals to have meaning. By passing all the risks, that has removed all the game play opportunities for other players to present those risks to that player.

Happy? This isn't rocket science, wake up.

Demosai
Posted - 2011.06.28 17:21:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Backtosh Redclaw
Originally players started with between 890,000 and 912,000 SP based on what they chose for race/etc. Rather than creating a giant screwball with buying skillpoints, provide a bank of discretionary skillpoints that can be applied to get them going, to the tune of around 400,000. Essentially giving them the chance to pick up those all important first skills without having to wait while they train to continue the tutorials, and enough to spare for a few options.


New players used to(i think they still do, haven't made any since Tyrannis) get a double-skill point training period such that it basically does the same thing you stated here, the first 1.4 million+ is double-speed. Giving new players 400k points outright when they don't likely have the isk to buy skills worth investing those points in is rather messed up. Essentially they get 600k+ free points, just spaced out across their first month/45 days or whatever.


I would object to skill points purchasable directly through plex or Aurum, but I am not completely against being able to buy skill points. An idea a buddy of mine and I bounced around before was perhaps having a "skill points injection", kinda like a booster. Make a sort of "skill point booster BPC" that can be a.) purchased with LP from the various factions (something like 10k SP BPC for 100k LP and 20 mil isk.... not cheap at all), or b.) drop (rarely) from regular NPC rats. I guess with having some freely available sources, a plex/aurum form wouldn't be that detrimental, just as long as that's not the only way.

The idea (in a nutshell) being, 10k skill points (approximately 5 hours of training) is not a significant amount of SP such that it would throw out the game, especially if like clone jumping, you limit it to one injection a day (something about the pain of flash-memory learning to keep it in line with lore) and that it would be so overly expensive for skill points that it would not cause people to make supercap pilots by buying SP. After all, there's the character bazaar, pilots can be bought that way.

By doing this, it will get the high sec people that want to move out to 0.0 the SP that most alliances demand just a little bit faster, the 0.0 people can get their little SP bonus, and the old disgruntled veterans (5th year for me) don't get angry at "all the young whippersnappers who didn't have to wait for their battleship V training"

Just whatever it is, keep it small, so that the bonus gained is not so much that it throws things out of balance.

Sabre Tek
Posted - 2011.06.28 17:25:00 - [43]
 

To you old vets who don't want some new players coming in and enjoying
Eve without the stupidly long wait times of training you went through are idiots.

I'm new 3 months playing Eve I dumped $1000 down and bought
A 100mill sp pilot $30 billion. I just finished 3 weeks of running complexes
Back to back in 0.0 space and bought a second 70 mill perfect tengu carrier pilot
$15.5 billion from 0.0 loot I found.

As you see people can already buy SP your arguments make no sense
And are just knee jerk reactions of predicable resistance to change.

I quit Eve twice in the past cause truly the game sucks putting a glass ceiling on you stuck
Where you cant progress in the game unless you wait months for training to complete.

Compare it to world of Warcraft just imagine if Blizzard limited you level by time.
So your stuck killing lvl 5 orcs for 4 weeks while you train to level 6. If Blizzard did that would
They have 6-10 million players he'll no.

CCP willl introduce this feature it will make them large amounts of money and it will increase the player base bring more people in for us all to shoot and CCP with more cash can make more investments into growing content and features for the game. It's all win win.

You old vets are funny your arguments are like those of a child who will not listen to reason cause you hands are cupped over your ears.

Change happens go read "who moved my cheese"


Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.28 17:33:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Sabre Tek
To you old vets who don't want some new players coming in and enjoying
Eve without the stupidly long wait times of training you went through are idiots.

I'm new 3 months playing Eve I dumped $1000 down and bought
A 100mill sp pilot $30 billion. I just finished 3 weeks of running complexes
Back to back in 0.0 space and bought a second 70 mill perfect tengu carrier pilot
$15.5 billion from 0.0 loot I found.

As you see people can already buy SP your arguments make no sense
And are just knee jerk reactions of predicable resistance to change.

I quit Eve twice in the past cause truly the game sucks putting a glass ceiling on you stuck
Where you cant progress in the game unless you wait months for training to complete.

Compare it to world of Warcraft just imagine if Blizzard limited you level by time.
So your stuck killing lvl 5 orcs for 4 weeks while you train to level 6. If Blizzard did that would
They have 6-10 million players he'll no.

CCP willl introduce this feature it will make them large amounts of money and it will increase the player base bring more people in for us all to shoot and CCP with more cash can make more investments into growing content and features for the game. It's all win win.

You old vets are funny your arguments are like those of a child who will not listen to reason cause you hands are cupped over your ears.

Change happens go read "who moved my cheese"




You know what? This will help vets more than noobs. Consider ...

Vet player out in 0.0, he can crank out tons of ISK chasing down rats and faction loot and lots of meta 4 items. He can sell all of this for a nice profit in high sec, not to mention all the ISK bounties. He then turns around and creates a new character. He buys a bunch of PLEX and then goes off and buys skill points for the new character and magic himself in a carrier pilot, he knows exactly what skills he needs, he knows exactly how much it will cost him to create. He then takes that carrier pilot and ganks the stupid noob that bought his way into a dred before he knew what the consequences could be.

Older vets can out ISK the new kids, older vets can buy skill points faster than the new kids. Think about it for a moment.


As for your Buying character argument, this is false. This characters already existed, someone took the time in the past to create them, took the risks to earn the ISK to purchase their skill books. Went out and played the game and interacted with others to generate that ISK to produce that character.

Character swaps are sandbox neutral. Buying skill points is not.

Humpink Omaristos
Posted - 2011.06.28 19:25:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Ok, want one? Noob enters game, buys his SPs up to doing lvl 4 missions. Noob now never needs to buy frigs, cruisers, BCs, all the ammo, the fittings, the risks to progress his way up through the game. He does not need to purchase ANY of the products created by players that produce those lower level items. He does not have to deal with the risks that allow his goals to have meaning. By passing all the risks, that has removed all the game play opportunities for other players to present those risks to that player.

Happy? This isn't rocket science, wake up.

It's not rocket science yet you still fail to think it through and only consider the path of reasoning that fits your preconceived notions.

Let's look at your example in a little more detail.
First let's talk about risk. Where exactly is there risk in Empire mission running? I really do have an open mind about this but Empire mission running in a frigate, cruiser, or BC doesn't hold any risk. If anything it's more risky to get into a Level 4 without knowing what you are doing because you just bought your toon.

It is true that he doesn't need to purchase lower level items, but instead he is purchasing battleships, appropriate modules, and ammo two years earlier than he would have. He is still consuming resources, just different ones. That will affect individual producers but not the economy as a whole.

If you insist on talking risk then other players now present that risk to the battleship pilot for a much more significant loss than suiciding a mission runner Caracal in hi-sec.

What about goals having meaning? There are two ways to look at it.
One way is that nothing anyone does in an MMO has any meaning at all. Waiting for a skill to complete over time isn't an accomplishment because all it takes is money and time.

The other way to look at it is that the person who does not have a problem with dropping lots of disposable income into non-tangible goods has already accomplished his goals in real life. Goals that allow him to not worry about RL cash he wants to spend on virtual stuff. Now, which player is more accomplished, the one who spend 6 years of his life and $1,000 on EVE or the player who walks in and drops $1,000 out of disposable income? I'll let the readers make up their own mind on this one.

The third way (I know, it's a long way) to look at it is that it's really none of your business what someone else gets out of the game. Just because you feel that waiting for something to happen gives you some sense of accomplishment doesn't mean that everyone else thinks about it the same way. What is true is that CCP's goal is to provide entertainment value in exchange for money. That's all that really matters. If CCP wants more money then they need to adjust the way they deliver the entertainment value. One viable way to do so is to provide "instant action" for players willing to pay for it.

No one is disputing that there will be effects should SP ever be sold straight up. However, a well reasoned argument demonstrating negative effects has yet to be made. And no, "OMG they won't buy 60k ISK Kestrels anymore, teh sky is falling!" is not a compelling argument.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.28 20:59:00 - [46]
 


Originally by: Humpink Omaristos

First let's talk about risk. Where exactly is there risk in Empire mission running?



The loss of the mission ship for one, Ninja Looters, hauling your loot to market and not getting suicide ganked, deciding to sell or reprocess (much less learning the difference) sell to highest buyer or sell order. These are all risks, and each represents interaction with another player.

Originally by: Humpink Omaristos

It is true that he doesn't need to purchase lower level items, but instead he is purchasing battleships, appropriate modules, and ammo two years earlier than he would have.



What about the noob industrialist, the noob miner that is operating on a small scale, learning the ropes of Eve industry and market? He looses potential customers cause they just skip right over his products.

Originally by: Humpink Omaristos

If you insist on talking risk then other players now present that risk to the battleship pilot for a much more significant loss than suiciding a mission runner Caracal in hi-sec.



Yeah that sense of accomplishment for overcoming those risks will mean so much more when everyone is running around with 150 million SP and gold plaited pants.

Listen to your self, you're going to try and equivocate this left and right aren't you?

Originally by: Humpink Omaristos

What about goals having meaning? There are two ways to look at it.
One way is that nothing anyone does in an MMO has any meaning at all. Waiting for a skill to complete over time isn't an accomplishment because all it takes is money and time.



You can try to equivocate this point with me if you want to, but it is not going to do you any good. Take your straw man, and put it in your bag of politician tricks.

Originally by: Humpink Omaristos

The other way to look at it is that the person who does not have a problem with dropping lots of disposable income into non-tangible goods has already accomplished his goals in real life. Goals that allow him to not worry about RL cash he wants to spend on virtual stuff. Now, which player is more accomplished, the one who spend 6 years of his life and $1,000 on EVE or the player who walks in and drops $1,000 out of disposable income? I'll let the readers make up their own mind on this one.



Well he can go buy some PLEX and get a character from the character bazaar, a solution already exists that doesn't disrupt the balance in the sandbox, that's why it is there and acceptable to most players.

Originally by: Humpink Omaristos

The third way (I know, it's a long way) to look at it is that it's really none of your business what someone else gets out of the game.



Well if it's none of my business, then it's none of yours either. Who are you to tell me anything then or make any sugegstions on these forums at all?


Originally by: Humpink Omaristos

No one is disputing that there will be effects should SP ever be sold straight up. However, a well reasoned argument demonstrating negative effects has yet to be made. And no, "OMG they won't buy 60k ISK Kestrels anymore, teh sky is falling!" is not a compelling argument.


Just because you do not like the result, doesn't mean sound arguments haven't been made. Your head is in the sand.

Humpink Omaristos
Posted - 2011.06.28 22:21:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Just because you do not like the result, doesn't mean sound arguments haven't been made. Your head is in the sand.

For reasons unknown you want to maintain the status quo and use deflection to in an attempt to avoid answers which are inconvenient to your goals.

I'll leave it up to the readership to decide who made arguments that they are able to logically follow.

The flaw in your line of argumentation is that you presume that all new players will buy their way out of whatever ship class. This is an unreasonable assumption. Likewise it is an unreasonable assumption that an entire industry exist to gank Level 1-3 mission runners out of the loot they are hauling off. Does it happen? It probably does but the impact of some players skipping that content is no different than any other change to the game mechanics EVE has seen over the past 8 years.

At the end of the day neither of us has the hard numbers to see how many T1 ships are being produced, at what profit they are being sold, whether they are being blown up in Empire or 0.0, etc. etc.

What we can hopefully agree on is that CCP has those numbers and hopefully the ability to look at them and estimate what impact SP purchases will have on the economy.

Do note that the suggestion to sell SP for straight up RL cash also doesn't have to be an all or nothing type of deal. It could easily be adjusted in any number of ways such as providing a limited number of SP that can be purchased per character (say 12 or 24 mil to "skip" one or two years), or there could be a limit of how many SP one character can purchase per year (let's say 12 mil per year, just to make up a number), or any other conceivable way to allow players to enter the more meaningful parts of the game without having to spend a couple of years to wait for it.

Yes, yes, any trained monkey can be in a decently fit tackler in a couple of weeks, but it's 2011, people who don't already play EVE don't have the desire to wait before they receive the entertainment value they are paying for.

The skillpoint mechanic is the #2 reason why EVE doesn't have more players than it does, the #1 reason being the complexity of the game. The complexity can't easily be adjusted, but the skillpoint issue can be overcome in a sensible way while at the same time still taking in the profit that would have come from that player if he had been subscribed all that time.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.28 23:07:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Humpink Omaristos
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Just because you do not like the result, doesn't mean sound arguments haven't been made. Your head is in the sand.



For reasons unknown you want to maintain the status quo and use deflection to in an attempt to avoid answers which are inconvenient to your goals.

I'll leave it up to the readership to decide who made arguments that they are able to logically follow.



Be my guest, this debate has been around for years.

If they want to bump up brand new players, that's fine, bump them up all the same, CCP has gone back and forth on this over the years. If they want to allow a way for everyone to get a bump in SP, then do it with an in game ISK based means that all players can access with out having to go to aurum based Micro-transactions, pay to win. Keep it in the sandbox. This is what implants do and no one has much of an issue with them, everyone can access them with out having to go to RL money.

I am not wholly opposed to SP accelerators via some device, what I am opposed to is allowing someone to purchase it outright with real world money. Inside the sandbox, whatever, go for it, everyone can get at it, the costs will likely scale exponentially, like pretty much everything else in Eve. PLEX may be involved in the process to acquire the ISK, but PLEX is sandbox neutral in that regard.

But, do be aware, no matter what device is used, veteran players will always out class noobs if they have access to the same thing, weather it's aurum based or ISK based. It is not the advantage you may think it is.

There are many other ways to encourage newer players and maintain retention, especially around that critical six to seven month mark besides tinkering with one of the bed rocks of this sandbox.

Zargus
Posted - 2011.06.29 00:47:00 - [49]
 

To start, I am a 2006 character. However, for this topic, anyone having played a year can appreciate this issue. Those having played less than a year are more likely to appreciate the benefits, without being as concerned with the negatives. (not intended as more than a generalization. If you fit outside of that, then ok)

I have to admit, I am a bit mixed on this one. As previously stated, there is already mechanics that allow legal means of obtaining the SP you want. But, there is an inherent design in that affording a rather limited scope. I can't imagine there were many people out of 10's of thousands that bought characters 2+ years ago with "I'll sell this in the future" in mind. Much more likely they sold it due to real life changes, so, it isn't a "daily" occurrence, as such. I actually had a friend do that very thing. College became priority. In short, it took time to train up, and even though the "new" owner will have an "edge", he is still an "unskilled" player. As for the time, it was real time that /someone/ spent, so, it isn't insta-high SP. It still takes the time, and investment of someone to get the character to that degree of SP, so if someone wants to spend that time, and sell the fruits of their labor, then it works. Not everyone finds a "random named", "random skilled" character appealing, so it has built in limitations.

The positive to highSPn00b characters is there will be many easy pickin's for a while, until they, as a person, become more proficient at their character. However, equally, a down side to that is a higher loss of ships, devaluing the ships these HighSPn00bs aren't well versed in. That would drive the somewhat delicate market down trend. Good for me buying said ship ; bad for me selling said ship.

That said, however, there is something that is an unknown (as yet) quantity ; /how/ is CCP intending on selling SP, /if/ they do, and for how much? If the monocle is any indication, then we can safely say there won't be many folks paying that much for SP. The post suggests 1M SP per plex ($15USD), but it'd likely be more like 100k SP per Plex, if that's any indicator.

Now, the fine art of balancing "How do we [CCP] get more players?" Selling SP is yet another avenue to appeal to something that even as a 2006 character, I can look back on, and appreciate the struggle of "Geez, it will take me a year+ just to pilot something 'fun' to fly with my buddies" factor.

Looking at it from that angle, let's say I talk a buddy into playing (finally) and he's /just/ starting out. I am cruising around in my T3 having a blast (figuratively and literally!) and it will take quite some time before he even comes close to my level. So, I dumb down, get a frigate, and run some level 1 missions with him. Ok, that sorta works...but, how does that scale? How do I get my buddy interested when he still has to struggle with such low yield results for a stretch of real-time. It's not fruitful for him to follow into L4 mission running in a T1 frigate. If I go in, and get agro, he's gonna sit on the edge of the playing field, and watch /me/ play the game. Ever watch someone else play something for hours? But, if we're doing his L1 missions, I am getting near-0 for my game time. No "incentive".

I think that's sort of the angle CCP would be considering by taking the tactic of selling SP. "How do we get the gamer buddies that didn't start "way back when" the folks that /have/ been playing for so long, into the game?"

That isn't to say it isn't workable, but, it's awfully discouraging to the new guy when I have so much cooler toys than he does, and it will be 2 years before he is able to even play on that level. I will still be training, and now 2 years ahead as well, he is permanently behind.

I think it's going to be expensive to avoid "flood of HighSPn00bs", but available to avoid losing players to "man, I don't want to spend 4 years training just to keep pace with my buddies" mentality...

Di Mulle
Posted - 2011.06.29 00:50:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Humpink Omaristos

Actually, what really is true is that there is a very vocal minority who rages against Microtransactions on the forums. EVE has 300k accounts (give or take) and only a miniscule percentage of those participates in the forums and only a fraction of those who participate express their dismay with MT.




By this very logic you may present quite microscopic minority...

Aliana Parkerae
Amarr
Zero Core Labs
Posted - 2011.06.29 01:21:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Aliana Parkerae on 29/06/2011 01:21:23
Originally by: Randal Eirikr
The minute I see this in the game, I'd leave. It defeats the entire purpose and feeling of EVE, patience, and working towards goals.


NOT INSTANT GRATIFICATION.


I'm with him, so HELLO NO, if you want Instant Grats go play something else.

Nikita Keriget
Posted - 2011.06.29 01:26:00 - [52]
 

I used to be against selling skill points, but as I've read and participated in various discussions I've noticed something interesting - the pro side seems to better articulate their position than the con. I've come around to being in favor of a moderated skillpoint purchasing approach. (Where you can buy enough SP to go do some fun stuff, but not enough to insta-level your new character to a perfect Titan pilot)

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.29 02:27:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Zargus

<stuff>



I'm against the outright sale of SP, I am sure I am perfectly clear on that point, but I want to address this particular question of pricing, so salt as needed.

In Eve, skill points, based on attributes and the skills themselves, increase at a particular rate. I'm sure someone can dig up the formulas if they care.

If we look at the current method of SP redistribution that has been used, it is a straight up refund of a number, which you may paste on anything, with no benefits or penalties, related to the character's attributes and the attributes required for the skill.

So what's going to happen is there is going to be this skew on pricing, a competition of $cash cost(PLEX), time, neural remap costs, LP value, Implant costs, etc. This will ripple its way through the economy and could have some manifestations in LP values, ISK values and time (time is important here because ISK is a commodity currency) that are going to be difficult to measure and could lead to unexpected distortions.

Also we must remember that, each level of the skill gives the benefit, not the number of SP. Level is a quantum on stats in space, SP is the time needed to reach the next quantum. So it's going to be difficult to also price in depreciation of effort in a way that isn't going to skew some additional things such as what people train, and how they make their choices. It'll be much less expensive to train a skill to level three than four, so we may start seeing all sorts of odd choices.

Part of being 'good' in Eve is to have made that choice to take the extra few days and get something to level 5. But if it is yawn boring cause It can just be bought for cash to train something else, then it begins to rob people of meaningful choices.

It's a lot bigger can of worms than most people think it is.

Sabre Tek
Posted - 2011.06.29 04:26:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Aliana Parkerae
Edited by: Aliana Parkerae on 29/06/2011 01:21:23
Originally by: Randal Eirikr
The minute I see this in the game, I'd leave. It defeats the entire purpose and feeling of EVE, patience, and working towards goals.


NOT INSTANT GRATIFICATION.


I'm with him, so HELLO NO, if you want Instant Grats go play something else.


And for everyone of you that does leave (instead of veiled threat). CCP will have 3 more players who don't want to wait 2 months to fit into a decent battleship. A whole new generation of players would love to play Eve if they could really enjoy it and play it. The amount of people that CCP lose to this whole skill point tree limitation is HUGE. I bet 100's every week join and go WTF and leave if not daily cause of the glass ceiling. Not everyone has $500 to dump on a character or would, but people would dump $20-30 here and there to increase their own gaming experience.

Also I now own 170 million sp across 2 pilots and I tell you that the knowledge I still don't have (cause i'm 3 months in and new) is that if I engage anyone in PVP i'm dead as the knowledge needed for PVP is so immense that Vets would own noobs even with the same skill points. Eve takes years of play to learn tactics, fittings, what ships do what and how to counter. And most people will not buy SP most will let it train as is normal only a few will buy SP.

AND CCP should limit buying of SP to credit card transactions so these vets and rich players can't buy up all they want. CCP should cash in and make some real money for a change. I don't pay CCP a cent now to play their game cause I just buy plex with in game current. I ran a 10/10 maze please yesterday and got 1.8 billion in loot, enough to plex my 2 characters for 2+ months from 1.5 hours work. Its stupid CCP need to make people pay to play.

Zeronic
Gallente
Zero Core Labs
Posted - 2011.06.29 05:00:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Sabre Tek

And for everyone of you that does leave (instead of veiled threat). CCP will have 3 more players who don't want to wait 2 months to fit into a decent battleship. A whole new generation of players would love to play Eve if they could really enjoy it and play it. The amount of people that CCP lose to this whole skill point tree limitation is HUGE. I bet 100's every week join and go WTF and leave if not daily cause of the glass ceiling. Not everyone has $500 to dump on a character or would, but people would dump $20-30 here and there to increase their own gaming experience.

Also I now own 170 million sp across 2 pilots and I tell you that the knowledge I still don't have (cause i'm 3 months in and new) is that if I engage anyone in PVP i'm dead as the knowledge needed for PVP is so immense that Vets would own noobs even with the same skill points. Eve takes years of play to learn tactics, fittings, what ships do what and how to counter. And most people will not buy SP most will let it train as is normal only a few will buy SP.



AND CCP should limit buying of SP to credit card transactions so these vets and rich players can't buy up all they want. CCP should cash in and make some real money for a change. I don't pay CCP a cent now to play their game cause I just buy plex with in game current. I ran a 10/10 maze please yesterday and got 1.8 billion in loot, enough to plex my 2 characters for 2+ months from 1.5 hours work. Its stupid CCP need to make people pay to play.


Technically your already Cash to SP, You sold Plex's for isk than bought toons off the forums, only difference it someone had to spend time doing it, which is a core part of this game. Change the core, you change the game. Also what stops someone from just changing the credit card number, really that amount of red tape to stop people form cheating the system would cause the programmer to stop working on the game and just fill in loop holes. Plus you are still paying CCP, just indirectly.


Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.29 05:18:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Sabre Tek

... glass ceiling ...



What's stopping you or anyone new from enjoying their experience now? Because they are not "the best"? That's life, get used to it. Your statement reminds me of the Southpark episode where they're playing WoW and have to skill up to beat some teabagger ass hat. Once they gank the guy, one of them asks, "So what now?" and another responds, "Now we can play the game." There will always be someone in Eve that is better than you or a bigger blob.

The loss of players around the seventh month has more to do with a perceived lack of meaningful things to do more so than waiting on skill points. Eve is not the sort of game that gives you things to do, you have to find your own goals within your limited set of abilities, but these are not just based on your skill points. Much is based on your imagination and other abilities, like finding a good corp, making some friends, or go out and get in trouble.

Originally by: Sabre Tek

Also I now own 170 million sp across 2 pilots and I tell you that the knowledge I still don't have ... Eve takes years of play to learn tactics, fittings, what ships do what and how to counter.



So how is allowing someone to buy SP going to help this situation? Had you come in and stuck with your original character, you might be having more fun. You skipped over all the learning that you speak about. Now when you die in PVP it costs you a lot. If you'd been out dying as a true noob, learning the ropes, you'd have spent a lot less money and probably know a whole lot more and be having a lot more fun. You'd not have this nagging thought in your head about how much you had paid for the characters you have. It's like sitting down at a poker table and being scared to fold cause you're afraid of how much you've put into the pot already. You robbed your self of being a noob, who's fault is that?

Originally by: Sabre Tek

AND CCP should limit buying of SP to credit card transactions...



Did that PLEX just drop out of they sky? As for forcing CC payments, you'll end up encouraging black market RMT, which is what PLEX was originally all about.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.29 11:07:00 - [57]
 

OP should go play WOW or some other dumbed down MMO, (perhaps FarmVille?) Leave EVE for those who enjoying earning their status in the game.

Zephyrus II
Posted - 2011.06.29 12:03:00 - [58]
 

I cannot believe this is even being discussed by players. Any players.

I'm perfectly in favour of noobs getting a few free SP to get them started, y'know, enough to get in a decent frigate with all the mods they need. I know from experience that that was one of the most frustrating parts of being a noob; having to wait a few days doing practically nothing in order to be able to use all the modules you need to get a good start doing whatever, pve, pvp, meaningful manufacture, mining. All these things only need 100-200k free SP in order to spec your character for them, but new players don't have those, so they can't get started for several days. Talk about a learning curve if you have to wait a few days to be able to do something, anything at all.

Noobs worry about not being on the same level as the other players. They simply either leave in a huff, or learn to accept it as I did. Sure, my 1 year old 10m sp character will never be as good as a 100m 6 year old character, but hey, I'm coo' with that. It's just that others have to learn to be ok with it too. Being denied something makes it all the more meaningful when you get it, but by the same token you need to be able to do something meaningful in the meantime as well.

Final Stance:
Free SP for noobs, about 200k, possibly with one or 2 do-overs for that single patch of SP because noobs make mistakes and train unimportant skills sometimes. NO buying SP directly with isk or cash. Basically, give them a chance to get started with basic modules and see it's not all bad.

eocsnesemaj
Keskerakond
Posted - 2011.06.29 12:10:00 - [59]
 

If this ever happened eve would be dead

Ayanaya
Posted - 2011.06.29 16:24:00 - [60]
 

Sign me up; my char was created in 2008, played for a little bit (approx 1.1M SP) then idled. Recently restarted to play with some friends who are all in the 15-30M SP range and I can do very little with them. I can't even "powerlevel" to catch up since it's real-time.

I don't want to "buy" a character with someone else's reputation, etc, but I'd really like to be in the 12-15M SP range.

Oh well.

-jbl


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