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Sabre Tek
Posted - 2011.07.07 16:15:00 - [271]
 

Originally by: Danillo X
Having played this game for 4 years and being able to fly most ships I took a break and have started with a new toon. Now I can see from a new players perspective that 50k SP and 5,000 ISK in the bank isn't very much of an incentive to carry on playing and the thought of taking another year before i can fly a ship proficiently is a long term investment. Personally I quite like eve but for the newcomer they don't know what eve has to offer in the long term so they wont stick around. Luckily I have pals that will help me get back up and running otherwise it would be a long hard slog and I doubt I would want to do that on my own.

I think new players should at least start with a few more mil to get going. Maybe a training boost for the first year just so they can ENJOY the game abit more, as we all want more people to shoot right? ;)


No read what those against this idea say.

We must teach these new players patience and to realize they can't fly most ships in the game unless they play the game for many many years of their life.

We must drill into them that they should feel lucky that t1 frigates for tackling don't take too long to train and they can have "fun" in pvp by flying tackling t1 frigates for the first year of playing Eve. Watching while others fly real ships.

We must teach these new players that they must accept their lot in the game as a permanent noob who has no control over speeding up their own development. And to just accept being a pleb with no freedom, except to look at all the fun ships in Jita market they cant fly and the multiple year training required to train them.

We don't want new players unless they are willing to write up multiple year toon training plans.

Are you mediocre in real life GREAT we have a game that forces you to be mediocre in game watching others fly elite ships while all you can fly is crap.


Baaldor
Black Sail Anarchists
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2011.07.07 17:04:00 - [272]
 

Edited by: Baaldor on 07/07/2011 17:04:01
Originally by: Sabre Tek

No read what those against this idea say.

We must teach these new players patience and to realize they can't fly most ships in the game unless they play the game for many many years of their life.

We must drill into them that they should feel lucky that t1 frigates for tackling don't take too long to train and they can have "fun" in pvp by flying tackling t1 frigates for the first year of playing Eve. Watching while others fly real ships.

We must teach these new players that they must accept their lot in the game as a permanent noob who has no control over speeding up their own development. And to just accept being a pleb with no freedom, except to look at all the fun ships in Jita market they cant fly and the multiple year training required to train them.

We don't want new players unless they are willing to write up multiple year toon training plans.

Are you mediocre in real life GREAT we have a game that forces you to be mediocre in game watching others fly elite ships while all you can fly is crap.




A bit of an over exaggeration, you think?

Or are you just a bit emo because you are unable to pay someone to hold your own **** for you?

Van Derka
Posted - 2011.07.08 05:12:00 - [273]
 

Edited by: Van Derka on 08/07/2011 05:13:35
Originally by: Humpink Omaristos
Originally by: Manique
simply put no, NEVER. training times means players are tought patience. can you deal with patience ?

So your argument is that when a person pays for entertainment time then instead of receiving entertainment value they should be taught patience?

My first character was created on October 28th 2003, I know how EVE works. I also know that in a day and age where lots of entertainment offers are competing for one's limited time a game which requires you to be patient for two years is doomed.



This is the reason why the EVE playbase is stagnating.
Back in 2004 there were very few MMO games, and EVE was one of, if not the only MMO, that was subscriber based and worth playing.
Now, there are so many offerings, that EVE has been left to languish.

Unless your a government, you dont hold onto traditions, just because they are traditions.... IBM/GE/GM/ETC once had the 'job for life' tradition, but if they stayed that way, they'd have folded by now.

CCP does need to start looking at the skill system and see if there is room to move.

People dont play games/entertainment to be taught a lesson, they play for entertainment VALUE
If you have a large choice of entertainment, your going to make that choice on getting the best value for your TIME and your $$$'s.

The world has changed, but EVE hasn't... and perhaps the EVE universe does need an anema, CCP definetly dont need the money, maybe they would be better off in the long run with a complete flush out. if RL $'s for SP achieves that, then maybe that will be good for the game in the long run.


Sabre Tek
Posted - 2011.07.08 07:58:00 - [274]
 

Originally by: Baaldor
Edited by: Baaldor on 07/07/2011 17:04:01
Originally by: Sabre Tek

No read what those against this idea say.

We must teach these new players patience and to realize they can't fly most ships in the game unless they play the game for many many years of their life.

We must drill into them that they should feel lucky that t1 frigates for tackling don't take too long to train and they can have "fun" in pvp by flying tackling t1 frigates for the first year of playing Eve. Watching while others fly real ships.

We must teach these new players that they must accept their lot in the game as a permanent noob who has no control over speeding up their own development. And to just accept being a pleb with no freedom, except to look at all the fun ships in Jita market they cant fly and the multiple year training required to train them.

We don't want new players unless they are willing to write up multiple year toon training plans.

Are you mediocre in real life GREAT we have a game that forces you to be mediocre in game watching others fly elite ships while all you can fly is crap.




A bit of an over exaggeration, you think?

Or are you just a bit emo because you are unable to pay someone to hold your own **** for you?


Exaggeration maybe, but really not that far off the truth.

Fact is I already paid for my toon and am loving Eve with 170 mill Sp across 2 toons now. It didn't ruin the game for others and just allowed me the freedom to play how I want. I tried playing as a new player noob and I'm too driven to succeed in the things I do to be put under those stupid SP restrictions. Most new players can't handle the endless boring useless multi month long waiting and quit cause most of Eve is locked out from them. I only support this because I know how stupidly frustrating being a new player is and all these vets need to go start a new account, play as a new player does and see why 100,000's of them have quit many for this reason.

Other games give you freedom, control over your characters development based on time in game and what you do in game. Eve is one of the very few that limits everything you do to time. I mean sure lock out some of the higher end content and ships but give the noobs 20-30 mill SP they can grind up to in game or sell it to them for instant CCP profit. once they have that much they can fly some decent ships and keep training slowly from there. This game needs new players. Not vets who pay CCP in ISK for their monthly subscriptions.

JT Black
Amarr
ALPHA REACTION
Posted - 2011.07.08 08:25:00 - [275]
 

No bro this game needs you to get out !

Never stop probing your intentions ccp !

What a lovely survey this is...

CCP=fail=check

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.08 09:39:00 - [276]
 

What do you think will happen if you open every possibility up to players with cash, instead of making them train for it? Think now. What will happen? It's not hard to work out if you understand how MMOs work and the most elementary player psychology...

Sabre Tek
Posted - 2011.07.08 12:34:00 - [277]
 

Originally by: Toovhon
What do you think will happen if you open every possibility up to players with cash, instead of making them train for it? Think now. What will happen? It's not hard to work out if you understand how MMOs work and the most elementary player psychology...


A player with cash already has EVERY option available to them, they just buy a 50-100mill SP toon for $500-1000 and then train normally the other skills while they enjoy all that Eve has to offer. Not many do this so your worried about a few new players buying some SP instead of quiting Eve worried about what? a few more 20-40 sp pilots. Most do not have money to throw at a game like this or their would be massive bidding wars on all high end pilots now.

Most people would just use it to jump past some mind numbing part of the training cycle that's stopping their in game enjoyment. Like they want to fly a Tengu they have trained many support skills for it and now see they are 3 weeks away from flying it. But are impatient and want to fly it today. Instead of telling them, nope your screwed go play another game you see you in 3 weeks or grind those level 3 missions till your IQ points drop 10 points.

Why not let them keep playing the game they want to play and let them pay CCP at the same time? Once they are in Tengu's they play their own game enjoying Eve and training normally till maybe they find another hump they just can't wait for.

Really the logic behind forcing a harsh and unenjoyable gameplay experience on noobs is beyond me. Not everyone is the same and happy to be patient and grow things slowly. Doesn't make them wrong or you right people are different.

Gallion
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.08 12:38:00 - [278]
 

Forever Decline!

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.08 13:32:00 - [279]
 

Why do you need a T3 to enjoy yourself in Eve? I think you've convinced yourself unless you're flying the very highest level ships, you're not having fun.

Well, I hate to be the one to tell you this - but I've enjoyed my time flying T1 and faction ships, many players continue flying and specialising in T1 or faction ships for years or even all their Eve career, and myself and a great many others have enjoyed the early levels of many other MMOs too - often more that whatever someone else thinks is the 'endgame'.

Having to train with only very pricy character transfers as a faster option gives players slowly expanding options, so new possibilities present themselves even years after beginning play. You want to **** all over that. I'm sorry - it has been made made clear to you time and time again - even very recently - by the player majority, CSM, the most powerful and/or respected players and alliances in Eve, and last but not least - CCP themselves - that they will not stand for the Eve sandbox experience being ******ed in the manner you so glibly suggest.

If you don't like it, and are too screwed up in your head to enjoy anything but what you perceive as the 'best', Eve is not for you. And that's ok. Life will go on. So please, please - deal with it.

Baaldor
Black Sail Anarchists
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2011.07.08 14:16:00 - [280]
 

Originally by: Sabre Tek
Stuff



You know, most people that do buy those 50 to 100 mil "characters"("toons" Confused) struggle because they have no idea actually how to play the game, they get frustrated and shortly quit because they got their ass handed to them by someone who played twice long but with only half the SP.

With the current manner of skilling your character, you learn how to play the game as a steady progression into the o'shiny type ships. And when you actually get there, the reward of learning the how to play pays out in huge dividends. I have had scores of players in a rush to get to the next biggest thing, buy characters to get there, and end up raging because they can not fit or fly any of the ships they have been :fapping: over. And end up wondering why they even play this game.

The only other folk that don't really care about any of that are usually the BOTTERS and the station spinners that are too afraid to even undock and play the game.

Evenus Battuta
Posted - 2011.07.08 15:28:00 - [281]
 

Originally by: Sabre Tek
Originally by: Toovhon
What do you think will happen if you open every possibility up to players with cash, instead of making them train for it? Think now. What will happen? It's not hard to work out if you understand how MMOs work and the most elementary player psychology...


A player with cash already has EVERY option available to them, they just buy a 50-100mill SP toon for $500-1000 and then train normally the other skills while they enjoy all that Eve has to offer. Not many do this so your worried about a few new players buying some SP instead of quiting Eve worried about what? a few more 20-40 sp pilots. Most do not have money to throw at a game like this or their would be massive bidding wars on all high end pilots now.

Most people would just use it to jump past some mind numbing part of the training cycle that's stopping their in game enjoyment. Like they want to fly a Tengu they have trained many support skills for it and now see they are 3 weeks away from flying it. But are impatient and want to fly it today. Instead of telling them, nope your screwed go play another game you see you in 3 weeks or grind those level 3 missions till your IQ points drop 10 points.

Why not let them keep playing the game they want to play and let them pay CCP at the same time? Once they are in Tengu's they play their own game enjoying Eve and training normally till maybe they find another hump they just can't wait for.

Really the logic behind forcing a harsh and unenjoyable gameplay experience on noobs is beyond me. Not everyone is the same and happy to be patient and grow things slowly. Doesn't make them wrong or you right people are different.



actually, "let them keep playing the game" is just what CCP doesn't want. What they want is "let them keep paying for the game without playing online" to max the profit at the minimized server cost. So they made the endless skill system to make you always pay for something in future even if you don't like what you can play now. You will not be able to know if it was worth it until you already paid enough to get it, which you will probably find not. Then you make yourself another illusion like"I already went to much to give up, the game WILL become fun if I just do this more".

THIS is how eve works.

If the game was charged by hours or server resource is free to use, skills would be long gone.

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.08 15:30:00 - [282]
 

Careful Baaldor - you'll be branded elitest :-D You want to hold back these poor whinging lazy dumb-effing noobs from flying a shiny T3 or supercap! You're just a nasty wasty bitter vet!

Baaldor
Black Sail Anarchists
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2011.07.08 15:57:00 - [283]
 

Originally by: Toovhon
Careful Baaldor - you'll be branded elitest :-D You want to hold back these poor whinging lazy dumb-effing noobs from flying a shiny T3 or supercap! You're just a nasty wasty bitter vet!


Meh, if the public safety message brands me an elitist grumpy old ***got, then so be it. Tears and hate mail works for me too, it motivates me to log in.

Cendric De'Credsiu
Posted - 2011.07.08 21:18:00 - [284]
 

Quote:
CCP should sell skillpoints for RL cash!


They already do, its called buy a few plexs with your Real Life cash and buy a toon from somebody else that has all the skills you want.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.09 00:33:00 - [285]
 

All you proponents of this proposal have to realize a simple thing.
EVE has no levels. No experience point system. The only in-game thing that differentiates an experienced player and a newbie is SP and ISK balance. You can already 'buy' isk, if you allowed for buying SP, then you are essentially condoning cheating.
If you want to fly an Orca but can't it's because sorry, you have to work your way there through mining cruisers and mining barges first. Want that faction battleship? need to fly a regular one first. You can't jump levels (without resorting to cheats) in other games, you shouldn't in EVE.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.09 02:25:00 - [286]
 

Good points Kaelie.

And people can cheat using multiple accounts to overcome challenges of Eve. Too many ways to 'cheat' the game already.

Humpink Omaristos
Posted - 2011.07.10 05:35:00 - [287]
 

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
All you proponents of this proposal have to realize a simple thing.
EVE has no levels. [...] You can't jump levels (without resorting to cheats) in other games, you shouldn't in EVE.
Contradict yourself much?

I think what has been sufficiently established is that there are proponents and opponents to this suggestion (just like to pretty much every other suggestion ever made, anywhere, about anything).

In the end neither side will change their mind based on arguments of the opposing side.
We will just have to wait and see whom reality proves right when CCP makes a decision how to deal with SP in the light of a diminishing EVE user base. My money is on ... well ... money! At the end of the day CCP is a for-profit business and its decisions will be governed by what creates the most profit for the company. I have no doubts that selling SP in a controlled fashion will generate the most profit and those of you who will quit won't be missed.

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.10 05:47:00 - [288]
 

Edited by: Toovhon on 10/07/2011 05:47:43
Originally by: Humpink Omaristos
We will just have to wait and see whom reality proves right when CCP makes a decision how to deal with SP in the light of a diminishing EVE user base. My money is on ... well ... money! At the end of the day CCP is a for-profit business and its decisions will be governed by what creates the most profit for the company. I have no doubts that selling SP in a controlled fashion will generate the most profit and those of you who will quit won't be missed.


Listen to yourself! LOL. Yeah, sure - CCP will totally destroy a large part of MMOs that keeps people coming back.

"diminishing EVE user base"??? LMFAO - Eve has done nothing but grow since day ****ing one :-D

You're so full of **** it's really quite remarkable. You won't even accept that there's a majority of players who don't support Eve being ruined, that CSM matters (because they won't stand for Eve being ruined, so course they are utterly irrelevant to everyone in your deluded mind), and CCP who has repeatedly stated (most recently just a week ago) Eve will not be ruined by game changing MT.

You're so arrogant.

You're so full of ****.

You're so delusional.

It's just ****ing sad at this point.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.10 08:00:00 - [289]
 

Originally by: Humpink Omaristos
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
All you proponents of this proposal have to realize a simple thing.
EVE has no levels. [...] You can't jump levels (without resorting to cheats) in other games, you shouldn't in EVE.
Contradict yourself much?

I think what has been sufficiently established is that there are proponents and opponents to this suggestion (just like to pretty much every other suggestion ever made, anywhere, about anything).

In the end neither side will change their mind based on arguments of the opposing side.
We will just have to wait and see whom reality proves right when CCP makes a decision how to deal with SP in the light of a diminishing EVE user base. My money is on ... well ... money! At the end of the day CCP is a for-profit business and its decisions will be governed by what creates the most profit for the company. I have no doubts that selling SP in a controlled fashion will generate the most profit and those of you who will quit won't be missed.


I bet you 1 plex that we are right, and you are delusionally wrong. :)

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.10 08:06:00 - [290]
 

Originally by: Cendric De'Credsiu
Quote:
CCP should sell skillpoints for RL cash!


They already do, its called buy a few plexs with your Real Life cash and buy a toon from somebody else that has all the skills you want.


I giggle every time somebody (and there always is SOMEBODY) shows just how little they know about the real world when they cite 'precedence' as 'justification' (ahem, I mean EXCUSE).

So we have black market knock offs of Prada bags made in china already... so why not sell them enmasse in bloomingdale?
So we have murderers and pickpockets in the world already! So why not make murder sanctioned, and do away with private property?

Just because you have some people who buy toons already, (akin to over-the-counter bespoke derivative contracts) why not have them securitized and traded on a electronic stock exchange! Great idea. Hey, the 2 are exactly the same!

Hey we have a leaky toilet, hey may as well knock out the pipes altogether and poop into a bucket!


Humpink Omaristos
Posted - 2011.07.10 09:49:00 - [291]
 

Originally by: Toovhon
Listen to yourself! LOL. Yeah, sure - CCP will totally destroy a large part of MMOs that keeps people coming back.

"diminishing EVE user base"??? LMFAO - Eve has done nothing but grow since day ****ing one :-D

EVE has grown over the years, but that growth stagnated in recent years as is clearly illustrated by the concurrent player count not surpassing the "record" set back in 2009. Yes, 2009, that's TWO years ago. See: 51,675 pilots: 50k pcu barrier smashed since then EVE sees upper 40k on a good day and often just in the upper 30k players online at any given time.

Now, we could believe what you are saying that the game is growing, or we could believe what I am saying that it's growth has halted. I have the concurrent player count to point to, what do you have?

Incidentally, another niche game managed to set the world record of concurrent players on a single server merely one year after the open beta of the game started. World of Tanks recently topped out at 91k players online. See: World of Tanks Sets World Record. That's just the number of players online at any one time, not the total number of customers.

What keeps people in any game is the entertainment value the game provides. EVE's entertainment value in comparison to other games is not nearly as strong as it once was when there were few other choices. This is especially true for totally new and younger (as in EVE age) players.

You can stomp your foot and pull your hair out all you want. The writing is on the wall and CCP knows it. The MMO industry has collectively embraced MT because it is profitable, much much more profitable than subscriptions. It's only a matter of time for EVE to go F2P and SP being available for cash in some form or another.

prooon
Wombats in Combat
Posted - 2011.07.10 13:24:00 - [292]
 

Not sure if serious.

If you're that content on skipping the low-skillpoint phase of the game, buy a char.

Hell, you can even fund it via GTCs.

Problem solved.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.10 15:25:00 - [293]
 

Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 10/07/2011 15:26:14
Originally by: Humpink Omaristos
Originally by: Toovhon
Listen to yourself! LOL. Yeah, sure - CCP will totally destroy a large part of MMOs that keeps people coming back.

"diminishing EVE user base"??? LMFAO - Eve has done nothing but grow since day ****ing one :-D

EVE has grown over the years, but that growth stagnated in recent years as is clearly illustrated by the concurrent player count not surpassing the "record" set back in 2009. Yes, 2009, that's TWO years ago. See: 51,675 pilots: 50k pcu barrier smashed since then EVE sees upper 40k on a good day and often just in the upper 30k players online at any given time.

Now, we could believe what you are saying that the game is growing, or we could believe what I am saying that it's growth has halted. I have the concurrent player count to point to, what do you have?

Incidentally, another niche game managed to set the world record of concurrent players on a single server merely one year after the open beta of the game started. World of Tanks recently topped out at 91k players online. See: World of Tanks Sets World Record. That's just the number of players online at any one time, not the total number of customers.

What keeps people in any game is the entertainment value the game provides. EVE's entertainment value in comparison to other games is not nearly as strong as it once was when there were few other choices. This is especially true for totally new and younger (as in EVE age) players.

You can stomp your foot and pull your hair out all you want. The writing is on the wall and CCP knows it. The MMO industry has collectively embraced MT because it is profitable, much much more profitable than subscriptions. It's only a matter of time for EVE to go F2P and SP being available for cash in some form or another.


Your numbers are nice, but doesn't support your argument that there is a problem. So what if the numbers in eve are less than some other mmo? As long as CCP is still making money and those in the game are still enjoying the game, then is it really a bad thing to have less players? I'd like to think that (like my handbag analogy) EVE is a luxury brand with quality customers and appeal to a (relatively) niche market of the greater gaming community. We don't care for, nor need the mass appeal of your run of the mill mainstream cash cow glitzy mmos. So unless you can show that this 'elitist' model of the game and its players is going to be end of it all, then I think that this line of argument isn't going to hold any water.


Humpink Omaristos
Posted - 2011.07.10 18:41:00 - [294]
 

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
As long as CCP is still making money and those in the game are still enjoying the game, then is it really a bad thing to have less players?
Yes, stagnated growth is a bad thing.
The goal of any business is consistent growth. It's not just a matter of making profit. It's a matter of profit maximization, making the most profit possible. That is what drives businesses, the market, and the economy. CCP is privately held so we don't exactly know how much pressure they are under to meet quarterly expectations but we can reasonably assume that EVE profits paid for DUST and some of WoD development. In fact EVE is the WoD alpha/beta test when it comes to CARBON.

So to answer your question; No, just making profit is not enough, it never is.
The reason for that is that there's opportunity cost. Why commit your resources to a venture that makes less profit than a different venture could when utilizing the same resources?

Profit is essential, consistent growth is essential, especially in a market that isn't capped out yet. EVE could easily have more users if minor changes in how it works were to be implemented.

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.10 19:28:00 - [295]
 

Originally by: Humpink Omaristos
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
As long as CCP is still making money and those in the game are still enjoying the game, then is it really a bad thing to have less players?
Yes, stagnated growth is a bad thing.
The goal of any business is consistent growth. It's not just a matter of making profit. It's a matter of profit maximization, making the most profit possible. That is what drives businesses, the market, and the economy. CCP is privately held so we don't exactly know how much pressure they are under to meet quarterly expectations but we can reasonably assume that EVE profits paid for DUST and some of WoD development. In fact EVE is the WoD alpha/beta test when it comes to CARBON.

So to answer your question; No, just making profit is not enough, it never is.
The reason for that is that there's opportunity cost. Why commit your resources to a venture that makes less profit than a different venture could when utilizing the same resources?

Profit is essential, consistent growth is essential, especially in a market that isn't capped out yet. EVE could easily have more users if minor changes in how it works were to be implemented.


It's people like you who think profit isn't enough, but constant high growth is needed, that has resulted in nearly all MMOs becoming braindead casual games. Not to mention the growth-all-costs-ideology damage to the real world.

Regardless, Eve's subs have continued to grow since day one, and while it's not fast growth, it has been steady enough to increase the userbase and reach new max concurrent user levels every year, e.g. on January 23, 2011, a new record of 63,170 concurrent players was set http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eve_Online#Demographics

So your argument that the Eve userbase is going downhill, or even stagnating is plainly a lie. Things may have been rocky lately, but year by year Eve has grown, no matter what you try to say.

But hey - continue to cry and believe CCP secretly is 100% on your side :-D Continue to dismiss everything that flat out contradicts your stupidity. It's certainly worked out well for you so far.

prooon
Wombats in Combat
Posted - 2011.07.10 21:03:00 - [296]
 

You're all pretty far off track by now, mayby we should just /thread

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.10 21:25:00 - [297]
 

Originally by: prooon
You're all pretty far off track by now, mayby we should just /thread


SmileVery HappyLaughingRazz Yep.

Zargus
Posted - 2011.07.15 00:40:00 - [298]
 

Originally by: Toovhon


You've got a massive hard on for high level skills and/or you're associating with Eve players who either don't want more low level players, or foolishly look down upon them. Well I'm sorry if this sounds harsh - but that's your fault. Take some personal responsibility and get rid of the idea you need to fly a capital or be earning 100's of mil per day to be having fun, and stop associating with people who belittle you (though frankly I'm inclined to believe this is a mental issue of your own making...).

I'm telling you and heaps of other players will tell you the same: there are plenty of opportunities for new players in Eve, and players more than willing to group with and help them out.

For that matter - I'm really rather curious: would you mind telling me why in your case you think lower level skill activities in Eve are not fun for you? I really want to know. Perhaps I can help you see there are other fun options that don't involve ******ing Eve for everyone.

Finally: accept you will not succeed in ******ing Eve. The vast majority of players wouldn't stand for it. CCP wouldn't stand for it. It. Is. Not. Going. To. Happen. So deal with it, please. Stop whinging, and start being proactive with your own experience.



These are the parts of the argument that make me not want to see this sort of thing in game in a general sense...but, at the same time, I stand that like I've said before, this isn't really the pro-[monetary component]-for-SP conversion proposal.

A reminder that I am an '06 character, and I've done it the hard way all along, and enjoyed it. I've had plenty of great n00b experiences, and this isn't about that.

I don't want anyone over some arbitrary value, say 10M SP, to be allowed to apply purchased SP. You bought 10M? Apply it to one char. Bought 20M? Apply to two, and so on, but not on any one (10mSP is just an argument sake). Additionally, I would certainly not want to see SP spent in any category over a 3x skill set. Meaning, if it's a 4x category? No purchased SP allowed here.

They already have lock outs for skilling up for trial accounts, so, there is code for it, etc.

But, the point. Severe limits, and high dollar price tags allow such a thing as an avenue for some folk. This isn't about the rich brat. He'll have to spend his RL monies on ISK, and whatever few SP, or, go to the bazzar, and spend the same on that 10MSP char someone else squatted, and skilled up. Difference being, limits in place, the bazzar still had trade value for over [whatever amount of SP]. No high SP n00bs running around (except the bazaar ones, of course...Rolling Eyes ). And no insta-titan pilots.

That isn't the plea here.

The plea is my friend who shows up in a T1 frigate, and the other 10 or so of us in 2+ year SP AFrigs's/BS+fits. He can't play with us, and all this ends up doing is promoting a squatter in the fleet, earning standings, while he plays L1's, or mines tiddly winks. This creates a frustration for the new guy. As older players, we are MORE than happy to train them in the way of playing, fitting, learning the system, etc. But, /they/ get frustrated, and just leave. I've already lost 3 bud's to the whole "eh, don't want to listen to you guys having fun, when it's going to take me 3-5 months to get into something that let's me run in those same missions with you"....


My ONLY other alternative to this is an idea of "buddy" pilots. No SP for sale? Ok. But, perhaps the half way point is pilots get a new skill [Leadership: Protectorate], which allows us old-timers to add (if interested/willing) to train it up, and grants us some "simply there" (passive, like siege warfare standard, et al) and grants stupid high resists to T1-only fitted frigs while within 20K, and some %age over normal damage. IF Aggression timer kicks in ; kill the bonus, aka "neuter the temptation to exploit for gank fests".

*shrugs*

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.15 17:16:00 - [299]
 

Originally by: Zargus

My ONLY other alternative to this is an idea of "buddy" pilots. No SP for sale? Ok. But, perhaps the half way point is pilots get a new skill [Leadership: Protectorate], which allows us old-timers to add (if interested/willing) to train it up, and grants us some "simply there" (passive, like siege warfare standard, et al) and grants stupid high resists to T1-only fitted frigs while within 20K, and some %age over normal damage. IF Aggression timer kicks in ; kill the bonus, aka "neuter the temptation to exploit for gank fests".

*shrugs*


You have a point here. There IS a problem with noobs fleeing the game** because they can't figure out how to have fun quickly enough. But I do think that this may not be the solution to that problem. (as buying SP can be abused). So maybe what we need is for some 1 time only noob training missions which give out SP boosters which are 1 time use for boosting SPECIFIC skills/trees. Specific because we want to limit them to be used on say only 1x and 2x skills, and they cannot be used by players over a certain SP. Also the skill branches they can be used on would be reflective of the career path training agent they got it from. The SP limit on use will prevent them from being resold, as they will be of no use to experienced players.

Another idea is to make the SP usable only on skills that are in the 'Beginner Profession' Certificate skill trees. So the 'Military Traning Agent mission paths, upon graduation, gives a bonus of Soldier SP, that can only be used on skills in the Soldier - Basic, certificate tree.



**though, as someone pointed out, the number that do stay keep the growth of the player base positive

Zargus
Posted - 2011.07.15 19:08:00 - [300]
 

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Originally by: Zargus

My ONLY other alternative to this is an idea of "buddy" pilots. No SP for sale? Ok. But, perhaps the half way point is pilots get a new skill [Leadership: Protectorate], which allows us old-timers to add (if interested/willing) to train it up, and grants us some "simply there" (passive, like siege warfare standard, et al) and grants stupid high resists to T1-only fitted frigs while within 20K, and some %age over normal damage. IF Aggression timer kicks in ; kill the bonus, aka "neuter the temptation to exploit for gank fests".

*shrugs*


You have a point here. There IS a problem with noobs fleeing the game** because they can't figure out how to have fun quickly enough. But I do think that this may not be the solution to that problem. (as buying SP can be abused). So maybe what we need is for some 1 time only noob training missions which give out SP boosters which are 1 time use for boosting SPECIFIC skills/trees. Specific because we want to limit them to be used on say only 1x and 2x skills, and they cannot be used by players over a certain SP. Also the skill branches they can be used on would be reflective of the career path training agent they got it from. The SP limit on use will prevent them from being resold, as they will be of no use to experienced players.

Another idea is to make the SP usable only on skills that are in the 'Beginner Profession' Certificate skill trees. So the 'Military Traning Agent mission paths, upon graduation, gives a bonus of Soldier SP, that can only be used on skills in the Soldier - Basic, certificate tree.



**though, as someone pointed out, the number that do stay keep the growth of the player base positive


Thanks for thinking with me. Not looking for skill point give-aways... Just looking for ways to get folks that are willing/able to have an out for a boost that helps get them "into the game" in /some/ way. Plugging into the larger old timers crowd is a hard step when you know they spent 4-7 years getting there, and no matter what you do, you will have to spend that time to play with Widget X. It's a bit daunting to new-comers, and try as I might to point out lower level ships, and toys are often plenty useful, it's easier to say that (from their perspective) when you have the choice.

Agree. Outright large scale SP sales is not a solution. It's too pragmatic without concern for longer term consequence, if it's done without some pretty serious limitations.

This is some thinking on our part (the players) to help CCP with creative juices, rather than leaving it to them to solve something on their own. Not that they can't ; but, we would like more players, and would like to see the longer term success of the game, and perhaps help maintain some momentum in their success so us old timers have game to play later. If it's slow growth, it's still growth. No one has made the argument (that I read in this thread, anyway) that we should open the flood gates of SP sales unchecked.

But, to be clear. I don't make any argument that all new players see, all new players leave. That's silly. But, I have experienced personally several who just aren't interested unless there is something that allows them to at least participate with their buddies that already have much higher SP. It's fun enough they want to, and I've even convinced a couple to stay by going tot he bazaar, and getting a character that way. But they aren't always sure of that as an out, as not many are willing to fly around with the name "Fluffy McSimpleton" or, whatever. Perhaps a start might be AUR purchasable renames, but, that's another disaster waiting to happen, as well, I fear. Perhaps "rename on character Xfer for an extra $50" or some such?

*shrugs* Again, just trying to think a way through all of this to allow new comers to have some way to plug in with a more meaningful way that makes them "feel" like they are plugged in.


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