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Alejan Gerakh
Minmatar
Clan Hyena
Posted - 2011.06.27 09:10:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: RougeOperator
I wasnt claiming I had special knowledge of them being ion the red. I was giving and example as to why they might be taking this seriously and flying the csm out there. And making an speculative guess as to why.
To be honest, I wouldn't be too surprised if they are barely managing to fund all 3 projects, at the very least, even with the ridiculous amount of money from 300-400k subscriptions. (like 50 mill a year or something, I think I remember getting?)

Alejan Gerakh
Minmatar
Clan Hyena
Posted - 2011.06.27 09:12:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Prince Kobol
This meting will make or break the CSM.

I suspect most players think CSM are nothing more the a PR exercise for CCP.

Well this is there time to prove that wrong.

If nothing changes after this meeting with CSM then it will effectively kill the CSM once and for all.

If however we see change then its gives the CSM creditability that they have been missing.

I for one hope the CSM are successful.

Whilst I suspect that some members are in it for the freebies (those who have yet spoken in the last few days) others I believe do care for the well being of the entire game and not just the aspect that effect themselves.
Yeah, I'd like to see them get this credit- the CSM has gotten things done in the past, but they've been very low-profile, or sleeper-hits. This is high-profile, high-stakes. They pull this off, they have the adoration of the community for years to come.

Constantinus Maximus
Paxian Expeditionary Force
Posted - 2011.06.27 09:31:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Constantinus Maximus on 27/06/2011 09:32:41
If they think that an idea can be "sold" to the CSM and that they can then "convince" us.

Then they have no hope.

Originally by: Alejan Gerakh
but they've been very low-profile


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-Sb7IZQOsc

Not so much low-profile, as side-lined.

Alejan Gerakh
Minmatar
Clan Hyena
Posted - 2011.06.27 09:51:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Constantinus Maximus
Edited by: Constantinus Maximus on 27/06/2011 09:32:41
If they think that an idea can be "sold" to the CSM and that they can then "convince" us.

Then they have no hope.

Originally by: Alejan Gerakh
but they've been very low-profile


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-Sb7IZQOsc

Not so much low-profile, as side-lined.

Right- that's a much better phrasing, thanks.

Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
Posted - 2011.06.27 10:46:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 27/06/2011 10:53:28
Originally by: RougeOperator
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
I don't think so.

We can predict the outcome: CCP will make no promises. So what then? How many people will actually unsubscribe? 1%? 5%? 10%? And is that "the end of CCP"?

I have the feeling most people will stay - or some back after a while. How many people have REALLY quit and biomassed their character and gave away their stuff? Not a lot! They have their friends, their ISK and SP and it's not like that there's plenty of good alternatives available.

You do realize with that a company with two active unfinished projects out even a 1% loss is a huge blow if they are already in the red.

I do it cause I want the game saved. Its like trying to talk a suicidal man off a ledge.

Well CCP KNOWS what's happening and KNOWS what to do about it - still they don't do it. They remain silent and refuse to make promises.

It tells me - and most others here - that they will go on with whatever plans they made for the MT shop. Why make promises that they don't intend to keep? They won't let themselves be stopped by CSM, player protests and "see what the players actualy do".

And I predict the exodus won't be as big as people may think. As I wondered before, how many people have actually biomassed their characters and given away their in-game possessions? I bet most people will return sooner or later. And a lot won't leave as they will wait until CCP actually confirms the MT stuff.

Also they may cope with the income loss by selling MT stuff. They may have sold just a little now, but as Zulu wrote in his blog, we will get cheaper clothes soon. Perhaps Incarna will attract some new players that will stay. Who knows?

Fact is that everything seems to indicate that CCP decided to pursue their MT plans and are willing to take their losses.

Katra Novac
Posted - 2011.06.27 10:52:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Jennifer Starling

And I predict the exodus won't be as big as people may think. As I wondered before, how many people have actually biomassed their characters and given away their in-game possessions? I bet most people will return sooner or later.



I bet CCP is banking on that too. But I hope that people have the self respect and courage to remain true to their belief's.



Tobiaz
Spacerats
Posted - 2011.06.27 10:53:00 - [37]
 

I think this is probably the strongest CSM we have had so far and CCP has never before been in this much trouble. That makes for a good recipe for players getting their demands met I think.

Obsidian Cobra
Posted - 2011.06.27 10:56:00 - [38]
 

the truth is out there

Alejan Gerakh
Minmatar
Clan Hyena
Posted - 2011.06.27 10:57:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 27/06/2011 10:49:39
Originally by: RougeOperator
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
I don't think so.

We can predict the outcome: CCP will make no promises. So what then? How many people will actually unsubscribe? 1%? 5%? 10%? And is that "the end of CCP"?

I have the feeling most people will stay - or some back after a while. How many people have REALLY quit and biomassed their character and gave away their stuff? Not a lot! They have their friends, their ISK and SP and it's not like that there's plenty of good alternatives available.

You do realize with that a company with two active unfinished projects out even a 1% loss is a huge blow if they are already in the red.

I do it cause I want the game saved. Its like trying to talk a suicidal man off a ledge.

Well CCP KNOWS what's happening and KNOWS what to do about it - still they don't do it. They remain silent and refuse to make promises.

It tells me - and most others here - that they will go on with whatever plans they made for the MT shop. Why make promises that they don't intend to keep? They won't let themselves be stopped by CSM, player protests and "see what the players actualy do".

And I predict the exodus won't be as big as people may think. As I wondered before, how many people have actually biomassed their characters and given away their in-game possessions? I bet most people will return sooner or later.

Also they may cope with the income loss by selling MT stuff. They may have sold just a little now, but as Zulu wrote in his blog, we will get cheaper clothes soon. Perhaps Incarna will attract some new players that will stay. Who knows?

Fact is that everything seems to indicate that CCP decided to pursue their MT plans and are willing to take the loss.

Yes, and every time you people think you know what you're talking about, I keep rearing my head trying to call attention to a more balanced viewpoint. I know about all the same stuff you do. I just haven't been turned cynical yet.

You are so sure that email, for instance, really was from Hilmar, and even if it was, when was it sent? I've started to forget, to be honest, but was it sent out before CCP really knew what we were ****ed off about? How do you really know?

And when they did figure out what we were ****ed off about, maybe they looked at our behaviour and thought, "The hell, I'm not poking my nose in that!" And the responses we did get exemplify the core internal problems of CCP: POOR COMMUNICATION.

And I find that there is the possibility the newsletter had two opposing, over-exaggerated views to highlight the ridiculousness of the pro-MT for 'useful items' stance. Which may have in fact been utterly trounced in the next newsletter. All this just to reaffirm their stance on that promise they made. We don't know- we just got a snapshot into the inner-workings, and there's conclusions jumped to everywhere.

I'm not saying this is the only answer- I'm saying I'm not going to just jump to these conclusions due to some pre-existing growing cynicism to CCP further fanned by the newsletter and the email.

Tobiaz
Spacerats
Posted - 2011.06.27 10:59:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 27/06/2011 10:53:28
Originally by: RougeOperator
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
I don't think so.

We can predict the outcome: CCP will make no promises. So what then? How many people will actually unsubscribe? 1%? 5%? 10%? And is that "the end of CCP"?

I have the feeling most people will stay - or some back after a while. How many people have REALLY quit and biomassed their character and gave away their stuff? Not a lot! They have their friends, their ISK and SP and it's not like that there's plenty of good alternatives available.

You do realize with that a company with two active unfinished projects out even a 1% loss is a huge blow if they are already in the red.

I do it cause I want the game saved. Its like trying to talk a suicidal man off a ledge.

Well CCP KNOWS what's happening and KNOWS what to do about it - still they don't do it. They remain silent and refuse to make promises.

It tells me - and most others here - that they will go on with whatever plans they made for the MT shop. Why make promises that they don't intend to keep? They won't let themselves be stopped by CSM, player protests and "see what the players actualy do".

And I predict the exodus won't be as big as people may think. As I wondered before, how many people have actually biomassed their characters and given away their in-game possessions? I bet most people will return sooner or later. And a lot won't leave as they will wait until CCP actually confirms the MT stuff.

Also they may cope with the income loss by selling MT stuff. They may have sold just a little now, but as Zulu wrote in his blog, we will get cheaper clothes soon. Perhaps Incarna will attract some new players that will stay. Who knows?

Fact is that everything seems to indicate that CCP decided to pursue their MT plans and are willing to take their losses.



What makes you think that only biomassing your characters will yield a result? Even just taking a break for three months is going to be a big problem for CCP if enough people do it. And protests like these tend to snowball. Even after after the latest 'no golden ammo' devblog, the thread is STILL growing at almost the same rate as before.

Even if a lot of players are not 100% serious or are planning to come back. A company like CCP simply can't take that risk, the bad press and the unrest it causes.

Tla Atij
Posted - 2011.06.27 11:10:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Mr Epeen
Don't be so arrogant as to think that less that 2% of the eve population can decide the fate of it's future. Even if every single one of the people who claimed to have unsubbed actually did, it would be a blip. A blip. No more, no less.

You may be right about that. But consider, most people probably kept silent during the last week because there are no actual real-advantage items in the NeX. Yet. Even if the out-of-game NeX items are entering the regular ISK market and starting to create an imbalance, people don't care very much. Yet.

This was only a preemptive strike. If CCP decides to sell in-game advantages, those who kept silent now will speak. And the forum thread won't stop at 400 pages.

It's my guess that we're being boiled.

Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
Posted - 2011.06.27 11:19:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 27/06/2011 11:23:12
Originally by: Tla Atij
It's my guess that we're being boiled.

I agree with your guess!
Originally by: Tobiaz
What makes you think that only biomassing your characters will yield a result? Even just taking a break for three months is going to be a big problem for CCP if enough people do it. And protests like these tend to snowball. Even after after the latest 'no golden ammo' devblog, the thread is STILL growing at almost the same rate as before. Even if a lot of players are not 100% serious or are planning to come back. A company like CCP simply can't take that risk, the bad press and the unrest it causes.

Well I tend to disagree with you. CCP is playing it smart; no confirming nor denying will keep a lot of players. I predict that they'll tell the CSM "We have no plans for game-influencing MT items but we can't promise that it will never happen, who knows that 25 years down the road blah blah, we'll shoot ourselves in the foot if we deny ourselves the option once and for all."

Some people may leave, many will return, things wil generally quiet down and perhaps in december they will add some minor MTs "but you can buy them cheaper for ISK, it's just a skin, don't overreact, why get so upset?" and gradually build it up. Indeed the boiled frog mechanic.
Originally by: Alejan Gerakh
Yes, and every time you people think you know what you're talking about, I keep rearing my head trying to call attention to a more balanced viewpoint. I know about all the same stuff you do. I just haven't been turned cynical yet.

I'm not cynical. I've seen this kind of political games happen a lot IRL, I think I'm being realistic. In fact I'm even planning to have a go at the SP for AUR shop when they introduce it.

Scarlet des Loupes
Gallente
University of Caille
Posted - 2011.06.27 16:19:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: Scarlet des Loupes on 27/06/2011 16:31:08
Originally by: RougeOperator

I will keep protesting until the meeting.

But how CCP handles this meeting will make or break the company. If this is just the CSM going to get preached too and fed Metrics and research and not listened too. And that They will proceed forward regardless. Thats the end of the road for CCP.

And we can all laugh about out how a bankers logic ruined something else.

Well .. after the last blog it seems everyone is already calmed down?

Kerrisone
Posted - 2011.06.27 16:38:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Alejan Gerakh
And I find that there is the possibility the newsletter had two opposing, over-exaggerated views to highlight the ridiculousness of the pro-MT for 'useful items' stance. Which may have in fact been utterly trounced in the next newsletter. All this just to reaffirm their stance on that promise they made. We don't know- we just got a snapshot into the inner-workings, and there's conclusions jumped to everywhere.

I'm not saying this is the only answer- I'm saying I'm not going to just jump to these conclusions due to some pre-existing growing cynicism to CCP further fanned by the newsletter and the email.


At about 1:05 Selene a former Employee of CCP now a member of CSM6 talks about the newsletter and how it isn't a 'discussion' piece for the employees, but by all means listen for yourself.
http://www.eve-radio.com/podcast-download

I'd add that the newsletter wasn't all 2 sides arguing extreme opposing sides, they were somewhat moderate ESPECIALLY on the no MT side. The 'Debate' was also 1 SMALL part of the newsletter, with the other 3 pieces being of equal size and each larger/longer than the 'debate'. A piece on EVE/Incarna, a piece on DUST, and a piece on WOD, along with that small bit on the 'debate'.

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.06.27 16:46:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Tobiaz


What makes you think that only biomassing your characters will yield a result? Even just taking a break for three months is going to be a big problem for CCP if enough people do it. And protests like these tend to snowball. Even after after the latest 'no golden ammo' devblog, the thread is STILL growing at almost the same rate as before.

Even if a lot of players are not 100% serious or are planning to come back. A company like CCP simply can't take that risk, the bad press and the unrest it causes.


Actually Biomasing pretty much eliminates the effectiveness of the gesture in bringing change. Someone who biomases is gone and a change of course isn't likely to bring them back to start all over. So that revenue is lost forever and you might as well keep going the way you wanted in the first place.

Someone who cancels their subscription with their characters and assets in tact is someone who could be won back by a change of course. As such they will have more leverage on the decision makers.

UMEE
Perkone
Posted - 2011.06.27 17:15:00 - [46]
 

i hope gallente buff and FW revamp come of this. these are the most important issues


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