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Linar Mardolak
Minmatar
Phlogiston Absorption
Posted - 2011.06.27 00:19:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: OT Smithers
It's amazing how many people have definitive opinions about **** they know little or nothing about -- including CCP's priorities and intentions.

Even more amazing are the number of vocal screamers who are somehow convinced that CCP's real goal is to wreck their own game, or alternatively that CCP is just sooo stupid that they need clueless players to tell them what to do.


It's not about wrecking the game. That doesn't actually factor into their decision, except as a vague regret. It's about money.


  • CCP are in a financial situation that is tight and growing tighter.

  • They're attempting to develop 3 relatively ambitious games on the revenue from one.

  • They're behind on the development of the other two.

  • They're located in a financially depressed country, and friends-and-family investment, like they've tended to depend on, is tight.

  • They need to show return on investment to keep the investors from getting antsy. They might even be trying to close another round.

  • MT has been proven over and over to make money from casual players, though at the expense of the devoted players.



Add it up. Wrecking the game doesn't really come into it when you're trying to survive as a company and keep your job.
CCP's goal, like any corporation, is to survive, make money, and grow, returning value to their investors.
Eve doesn't matter other than as a tool to do that. If they have to do something else to survive, make money, and return value to their investors, they will.


Linar Mardolak
Minmatar
Phlogiston Absorption
Posted - 2011.06.27 00:22:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Saska Samar
Originally by: Maplestone
Originally by: JC Anderson
Especially when it goes into how they tracked the people that sent them all the hate mail over mt... And found that those same people were purchasing pay-to-win items not long after.


That actually doesn't suprise me at all. People scratch where it itches. The people most upset are the ones who know that if they continue playing, they will end up paying.




Still ignoring that the BF game was FREE and they started paying where Eve is already subscription based.

Yes some people play Eve.... not for free though as they have spend time earning the ISK before they earn money for stuff


Yes, to truly go to a f2p model, the Eve character plan will have to change, because offline training and f2p cannot work together. Perhaps character classes will be necessary - they're easier for casual players to understand anyway.

Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.06.27 00:31:00 - [63]
 

Edited by: Razin on 27/06/2011 00:34:15

Originally by: Peter Greed
Regrettably, after watching http://www.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win (specifically at the 29:00 minute mark and forward), it has suddenly become crystal clear to me that:


That's some pretty compelling material. However, does it apply entirely to the case of EVE? For example, if we consider vulnerability to detrimental effects of game affecting virtual goods, could the games discussed in the presentation be called 'virtual worlds' to the same extent as EVE, with it's total sandbox gameplay?

Moon Shadowfall
Posted - 2011.06.27 00:33:00 - [64]
 

Edited by: Moon Shadowfall on 27/06/2011 00:35:53

Would you all do me a favor and check out my post...on page one bot or page two atm...I'm curious if this could be what is going on.

Title:

Eve's future and why it is good (Is this what's going on?)
thanks.

PsyBlade
Caldari
Havoc Violence and Chaos
Merciless.
Posted - 2011.06.27 00:33:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Peter Greed
Regrettably, after watching http://www.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win (specifically at the 29:00 minute mark and forward), it has suddenly become crystal clear to me that:



  • CCP will make more money by introducing RMT, regardless of the global and local press.

  • They will absolutely 100% move forward with these changes, including advantage based items.

  • From the business standpoint, it's actually the right way to go.

  • Spending any further time reading or commenting is just a complete waste of time.





So, while I vehemently despise CCP from a gamer's standpoint, I must applaud them for their bold business move.

The CSM meeting and any further comments from CCP are purely cosmetic, and will absolutely do nothing to change the outcome.



Fake Edit: Trust me, I don't like taking this viewpoint, but for those who threaten the death of Eve through whatever means necessary, go watch the video, and then tell me you have a leg to stand on.


CCP would never implement MT...

Oh wai.... Rolling Eyes

Hekira Soikutsu
Posted - 2011.06.27 00:38:00 - [66]
 

It will be fine as long as they don't introduce modules or sp in the Aurum store. Also as long as they don't spend too many dollars developing that end instead of the game.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2011.06.27 00:38:00 - [67]
 

Quote:
I don't care if they are right or not, i will still quit if it happen. You need to understand something, people don't pay a 15$ subcription fee to be told after that they still need to pay for the best content of the game.


Valid point, however here is something that you need to consider.

EVE will likely use a modified version of what you see in that video.

Why? Because it can leverage it's extensive, already existing infrastructure (the EVE market) to make a much more efficient and elegant system.

Consider this:

If CCP sells and item for AUR and it cannot be resold for ISK, the only market you have are the people that want it and are willing to spend real money for it.

If, on the other hand, CCP sells and item for AUR and DOES allow it to be resold for ISK you have increased the number of people who will purchase it many times over. People would no long simply buy one with AUR to use themselves, they will also buy it for resale to the much larger group of people willing to spend ISK but not AUR.

This system already exists and functions well in EVE. To do it any other way would simply reduce CCP's income from these items.

The plus side for the player is that you won't have to pay more in cash (beyond your subscription) if you do not wish to. You can simply buy the item off of the market like everything else.

Take it one step further (as they have stated they intend to) and make the item you buy either a BPC or an item that requires in game goods (ship hull for example) along with the AUR price and in one step you have fully engaged the EVE economy in it's production.

So yeah, this system could work out very well for CCP and also work out very well for the players as well.

Namura Kautsuo
Posted - 2011.06.27 00:39:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Peter Greed
Originally by: Demure Guise


I'm just surprised that CCP, of all people, are surprised at the reactions!


I can tell by this statement, you have not watched the video. :)

They are not surprised at the reactions. The reactions were predicted precisely.


You sure are fighting hard for your right to right to surrender. So surrender, go play spaceships and return to bliss. No? Ok.

The vid is poignant, however, that game is different from Eve in many respects. Not all things port well. Restaurants do not sell tractors.


Just because a thing is hard to do doesn't mean we shouldn't try to do it. And no just because the vocal forum minority vehemently appose it doesn't mean they shouldn't try it either.

While I do not want titans being sold on the MT store, I am more than willing to see ships in the store. I wouldn't mind buying a primae or maybe another brand new ship that fills a niche role never thought of before. Or ship models where you don't buy a new ship but can replace completely the visuals of your ship to another. Ship skins. And yes even bonuses to ships.

How about a brand new slot, each ship gets a single new module slot where only 1 MT store bought module can go. An extra 5% armor or whatever stat you want.

The possibilities are near limitless and only the insecure are the ones who really have a problem with it.

Stuart Lajoie
Posted - 2011.06.27 00:40:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Maplestone
Originally by: Saska Samar
Still ignoring that the BF game was FREE and they started paying where Eve is already subscription based.


Starting with a subscription price of $0 or $15 doesn't change the rest of the model about how people behave to an incremental cost :)


You're right, and yet wrong.
It lowers the value returned for the $15 base subscription.

Also the opportunity cost isn't MT cost of items. It's $15+MT cost of items.

Beyond that. Assume CCP is trying to maximize profit and revenue. $60 items is not anywhere close to that point. If they missed that so badly how are we to assume they'll do anything else right?

Vherkin
Amarr
War Cake
Posted - 2011.06.27 00:41:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Linar Mardolak


  • CCP are in a financial situation that is tight and growing tighter.

  • They're attempting to develop 3 relatively ambitious games on the revenue from one.

  • They're behind on the development of the other two.

  • They're located in a financially depressed country, and friends-and-family investment, like they've tended to depend on, is tight.

  • They need to show return on investment to keep the investors from getting antsy. They might even be trying to close another round.

  • MT has been proven over and over to make money from casual players, though at the expense of the devoted players.



Add it up. Wrecking the game doesn't really come into it when you're trying to survive as a company and keep your job.
CCP's goal, like any corporation, is to survive, make money, and grow, returning value to their investors.
Eve doesn't matter other than as a tool to do that. If they have to do something else to survive, make money, and return value to their investors, they will.


Other solution:
-Abandon one of their project
-Make smaller project that can add quick buck (for exemple, a browser game)
-Augment subscription fee
-Do a pre-order of the most promising of the two projects

What they want to choose:
-Screw over your dedicaced playerbase.
-hope the one who will stay and buy your stuff will permit you to earn substentially more than the one who ran away screaming in rage and cursing your name.
-let face it, it's a gamble, if in the end they only get a 5% to 10% increase i doubt it will have been worth it with all the bad press and damage to their reputation.


Peter Greed
Dirt-Nap Ship Yards
Dirt Nap Squad.
Posted - 2011.06.27 00:48:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Vherkin

Other solution:
-Abandon one of their project





I lol'd.

Namura Kautsuo
Posted - 2011.06.27 00:55:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Vherkin
Originally by: Linar Mardolak


  • CCP are in a financial situation that is tight and growing tighter.

  • They're attempting to develop 3 relatively ambitious games on the revenue from one.

  • They're behind on the development of the other two.

  • They're located in a financially depressed country, and friends-and-family investment, like they've tended to depend on, is tight.

  • They need to show return on investment to keep the investors from getting antsy. They might even be trying to close another round.

  • MT has been proven over and over to make money from casual players, though at the expense of the devoted players.



Add it up. Wrecking the game doesn't really come into it when you're trying to survive as a company and keep your job.
CCP's goal, like any corporation, is to survive, make money, and grow, returning value to their investors.
Eve doesn't matter other than as a tool to do that. If they have to do something else to survive, make money, and return value to their investors, they will.


Other solution:
-Abandon one of their project
-Make smaller project that can add quick buck (for exemple, a browser game)
-Augment subscription fee
-Do a pre-order of the most promising of the two projects

What they want to choose:
-Screw over your dedicaced playerbase.
-hope the one who will stay and buy your stuff will permit you to earn substentially more than the one who ran away screaming in rage and cursing your name.
-let face it, it's a gamble, if in the end they only get a 5% to 10% increase i doubt it will have been worth it with all the bad press and damage to their reputation.




Bonus: Bitter vets leave and are never heard from again.

Vherkin
Amarr
War Cake
Posted - 2011.06.27 00:58:00 - [73]
 

Edited by: Vherkin on 27/06/2011 00:58:42
Originally by: Peter Greed
Originally by: Vherkin

Other solution:
-Abandon one of their project





I lol'd.


Yep seriously, in the direst situation,
You have two choice:
-Risk to destroy your only source of income by burdening it with heavy in the hope you can fund your two project.
-Or restructuring and making sure one of your two project see the light of the day and make profit.

For exemple, Dust as been anounced for ps3, yet, some stuff seem to indicate that a new generation of console might come soon.
Could it be wise to put it on hold and se what happen ?

Im not saying is the best idea but i would prefer a certain futur to a uncertain profit.

Namura Kautsuo
Posted - 2011.06.27 01:04:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Vherkin
Edited by: Vherkin on 27/06/2011 00:58:42
Originally by: Peter Greed
Originally by: Vherkin

Other solution:
-Abandon one of their project





I lol'd.


Yep seriously, in the direst situation,
You have two choice:
-Risk to destroy your only source of income by burdening it with heavy in the hope you can fund your two project.
-Or restructuring and making sure one of your two project see the light of the day and make profit.

For exemple, Dust as been anounced for ps3, yet, some stuff seem to indicate that a new generation of console might come soon.
Could it be wise to put it on hold and se what happen ?

Im not saying is the best idea but i would prefer a certain futur to a uncertain profit.


Sorry but the PS4 and the XNEXT are not coming out till 2014, late 2013 at the earliest. That's still a ways away. Not to mention that because Dust is going to be a PSN game it will work on the PS4. That would probably not be the case if the game came out on the XBOX, not to mention that the entire model for creating DUST would have to change if they went with the XBOX.

Their only choice was to make it a PSN game or a PC game. Given that the best approach was PSN.

Peter Greed
Dirt-Nap Ship Yards
Dirt Nap Squad.
Posted - 2011.06.27 01:09:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Vherkin
Edited by: Vherkin on 27/06/2011 00:58:42
Originally by: Peter Greed
Originally by: Vherkin

Other solution:
-Abandon one of their project





I lol'd.


Yep seriously, in the direst situation,



I suppose that's another issue entirely. What dire situation? Is the 'situation' as 'dire' as many say?

Remains to be seen, but I strongly doubt it.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.27 01:12:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Namura Kautsu
Bonus: Bitter vets leave and are never heard from again.


Motive exposed, case closed.

Oxeu
Caldari
D.R. Incorporated
Genesis Invictus
Posted - 2011.06.27 01:19:00 - [77]
 

Edited by: Oxeu on 03/07/2011 16:43:14

Billy Bad Ass
Posted - 2011.06.27 01:27:00 - [78]
 


Linar Mardolak
Minmatar
Phlogiston Absorption
Posted - 2011.06.27 01:29:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Razin
Edited by: Razin on 27/06/2011 00:34:15

Originally by: Peter Greed
Regrettably, after watching http://www.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win (specifically at the 29:00 minute mark and forward), it has suddenly become crystal clear to me that:


That's some pretty compelling material. However, does it apply entirely to the case of EVE? For example, if we consider vulnerability to detrimental effects of game affecting virtual goods, could the games discussed in the presentation be called 'virtual worlds' to the same extent as EVE, with it's total sandbox gameplay?


The sandbox is what makes Eve special now.
In the coming Eve, that won't matter so much.

Linar Mardolak
Minmatar
Phlogiston Absorption
Posted - 2011.06.27 01:32:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Hekira Soikutsu
It will be fine as long as they don't introduce modules or sp in the Aurum store. Also as long as they don't spend too many dollars developing that end instead of the game.


This is already happening. Where have you been? The mechanics for PLEX-for-remap and PLEX-for-SP are already built. Look it up, do some searching. Look at why T'Amber quit the CSM and Eve.
Eve's not the one getting the money - it's WoD and DUST. Eve is in maintenance mode, other than tools to get more money out.

Linar Mardolak
Minmatar
Phlogiston Absorption
Posted - 2011.06.27 01:50:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Vherkin


Other solution:
-Abandon one of their project


Likely, their current investments are based on WoD and DUST showing steady progress. Not an option.


Originally by: Vherkin

-Make smaller project that can add quick buck (for exemple, a browser game)


No, that's not possible in this situation. I don't know if I can explain without sounding condescending, and I don't want to do that. I'm coming from a POV from inside the software industry, so it can be a little surprising what people on the outside think is possible.
6 months ago? Sure. Now, with the leak making something have to happen RIGHT NOW to calm the players so they can buy time to get the new microtransaction way built? No.

Originally by: Vherkin

-Augment subscription fee


The industry is moving away from subscription fees and towards microtransactions. Why would they go somewhere that is proven not to work?

Originally by: Vherkin

-Do a pre-order of the most promising of the two projects


Might make money, but if you've not noticed, the WoD forums aren't exactly positive about the prospects of WoD, either.

As to console titles? People can take them or leave them. They're casual games.

Originally by: Vherkin

What they want to choose:
-Screw over your dedicaced playerbase.
-hope the one who will stay and buy your stuff will permit you to earn substentially more than the one who ran away screaming in rage and cursing your name.
-let face it, it's a gamble, if in the end they only get a 5% to 10% increase i doubt it will have been worth it with all the bad press and damage to their reputation.



They don't think it'll be a 5-10% increase. They are looking at things like that slideshow. It's pretty compelling. Leave your love for Eve behind and watch it from the point of view of a company in a tight spot.

Besides, they made that gamble somewhere between 6 months and two years ago, when these decisions were made. They need to play their hand out - they don't really have a choice at this point.


San Severina
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.27 01:54:00 - [82]
 

OP registers high on my idiot meter.


Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Linar Mardolak
Minmatar
Phlogiston Absorption
Posted - 2011.06.27 01:57:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: San Severina
OP registers high on my idiot meter.


Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.


Really? Did you watch that slideshow? The OP has some misunderstandings about PLEX, but you really should be able to understand that Eve is going to change quite drastically.

Ragnar Wintermute
Posted - 2011.06.27 02:01:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Namura Kautsuo
Originally by: Saska Samar
Originally by: Namura Kautsuo
Great video. It remains to be seen if the same dynamics that work in a FTP game will work with a subscription based game, but I think personally it might just work.




I'll post again for ****s and giggles.

The video said 1.29% paid when it was free and the revenues doubled when the paid contents were introduced. However average income declined so you can determine that around 5% or less paid for the content. Would 5% cover the amount of lost revenue from people leaving due to bad publicity.... considering a lot of us have 2 or more accounts?

Our accounts are paying for Dust and WoD development. We should be looked after not abused by our perverted drunken step-dad. Am I saying that CCP employees are nonces? No of course not but Twisted Evil


There is no way our accounts _wouldn't_ be paying for Dust and WoD development, anyone who ever thought it wouldn't is patently insane and does not understand how corporations work.

It's not abuse. It's just good business and it could change the EVE landscape tremendously, which I am all in favor of. EVE has stagnated for years now and has needed a huge injection of new ideas and a new direction. Incarna and MT could do just that.


*Puts on tinfoil hat.

Woah, maybe I'm crazy but didn't I just read a leaked email from someone that _used underscores_ to make important statements?

Namura Kautsuo
Posted - 2011.06.27 02:04:00 - [85]
 

Edited by: Namura Kautsuo on 27/06/2011 02:04:25
Originally by: Ragnar Wintermute
Originally by: Namura Kautsuo
Originally by: Saska Samar
Originally by: Namura Kautsuo
Great video. It remains to be seen if the same dynamics that work in a FTP game will work with a subscription based game, but I think personally it might just work.




I'll post again for ****s and giggles.

The video said 1.29% paid when it was free and the revenues doubled when the paid contents were introduced. However average income declined so you can determine that around 5% or less paid for the content. Would 5% cover the amount of lost revenue from people leaving due to bad publicity.... considering a lot of us have 2 or more accounts?

Our accounts are paying for Dust and WoD development. We should be looked after not abused by our perverted drunken step-dad. Am I saying that CCP employees are nonces? No of course not but Twisted Evil


There is no way our accounts _wouldn't_ be paying for Dust and WoD development, anyone who ever thought it wouldn't is patently insane and does not understand how corporations work.

It's not abuse. It's just good business and it could change the EVE landscape tremendously, which I am all in favor of. EVE has stagnated for years now and has needed a huge injection of new ideas and a new direction. Incarna and MT could do just that.


*Puts on tinfoil hat.

Woah, maybe I'm crazy but didn't I just read a leaked email from someone that _used underscores_ to make important statements?


Aside from it now being a very common markup for italics in places like reddit, its because I happen to have invented this back in the old internet days. Yes _I_ invented it, Hilmer or whoever has ever used it aped it from me.

Anna Maziarczyk
Posted - 2011.06.27 02:12:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Peter Greed
Regrettably, after watching http://www.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win (specifically at the 29:00 minute mark and forward), it has suddenly become crystal clear to me that:



  • CCP will make more money by introducing RMT, regardless of the global and local press.

  • They will absolutely 100% move forward with these changes, including advantage based items.

  • From the business standpoint, it's actually the right way to go.

  • Spending any further time reading or commenting is just a complete waste of time.





So, while I vehemently despise CCP from a gamer's standpoint, I must applaud them for their bold business move.

The CSM meeting and any further comments from CCP are purely cosmetic, and will absolutely do nothing to change the outcome.



Fake Edit: Trust me, I don't like taking this viewpoint, but for those who threaten the death of Eve through whatever means necessary, go watch the video, and then tell me you have a leg to stand on.


Invading Poland was a Bold business move at one point as well.

- The invading country takes over the invaded countries resources.

- The invaders are 100% committed to doing so.

- From an Imperialist standpoint its the right move.

- Talking about it is just a waste of time. Talk never stopped an invading army.

Where would this world be if the OP's strategies were adopted....

Namura Kautsuo
Posted - 2011.06.27 02:19:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Anna Maziarczyk
Originally by: Peter Greed
Regrettably, after watching http://www.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win (specifically at the 29:00 minute mark and forward), it has suddenly become crystal clear to me that:



  • CCP will make more money by introducing RMT, regardless of the global and local press.

  • They will absolutely 100% move forward with these changes, including advantage based items.

  • From the business standpoint, it's actually the right way to go.

  • Spending any further time reading or commenting is just a complete waste of time.





So, while I vehemently despise CCP from a gamer's standpoint, I must applaud them for their bold business move.

The CSM meeting and any further comments from CCP are purely cosmetic, and will absolutely do nothing to change the outcome.



Fake Edit: Trust me, I don't like taking this viewpoint, but for those who threaten the death of Eve through whatever means necessary, go watch the video, and then tell me you have a leg to stand on.


Invading Poland was a Bold business move at one point as well.

- The invading country takes over the invaded countries resources.

- The invaders are 100% committed to doing so.

- From an Imperialist standpoint its the right move.

- Talking about it is just a waste of time. Talk never stopped an invading army.

Where would this world be if the OP's strategies were adopted....


HURR. My Internet spaceships is serious business, as important as ****** invading poland.

Rolling Eyes

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.27 02:23:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Namura Kautsuo

Just because a thing is hard to do doesn't mean we shouldn't try to do it. And no just because the vocal forum minority vehemently appose it doesn't mean they shouldn't try it either.



Who is "We?"

And as far as vocal forum minority, if that is the case, perhaps they will ignore it, "What they do, not what they say" after all. But the Eve community and its forum usage is not quite the same as a F2P crowd. So we can not make blanket assumptions based of the experiences of someone in some other community with a different product. It serves your purpose to do so, so you willingly make fallacious assumptions based on no evidence.

Originally by: Namura Kautsuo

While I do not want titans being sold on the MT store, I am more than willing to see ships in the store. I wouldn't mind buying a primae or maybe another brand new ship that fills a niche role never thought of before. Or ship models where you don't buy a new ship but can replace completely the visuals of your ship to another. Ship skins. And yes even bonuses to ships.

How about a brand new slot, each ship gets a single new module slot where only 1 MT store bought module can go. An extra 5% armor or whatever stat you want.



You are willing to break the sandbox because you likely have not thought all of the implications through. Most of the so called vocal minority have been around a while and understand how Eve works and the importance of the integrity of the sandbox. You're willingness to want 'extra' stuff proves you do not care and lack understanding.

Originally by: Namura Kautsuo

The possibilities are near limitless and only the insecure are the ones who really have a problem with it.



Your arrogance does you no favors.

Marius Veritas
Posted - 2011.06.27 02:26:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: octahexx Charante

only part i dont get if they are certain this is the way to go why so covert and silent about it...if the theory its just 2% whinign on the forums why care? why not just say it outright and let people know about the new great future?




Remember the Koreans when they said that the losers must *NOT* know they lost because someone bought something.
It probably extends into this, don't *advertise* as such that buying an advantage would "buy you an advantage". Just put it out there and those looking for the advantage will pick up on it automatically.
Remember the Koreans. Been doing this for a decade or more man.

Also, good post OP.
One hope that this is an outlier, but a case study like this still feels quite damning about the direction gaming will go.
I R sad.

Anna Maziarczyk
Posted - 2011.06.27 02:28:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Namura Kautsuo
Originally by: Anna Maziarczyk
Originally by: Peter Greed
Regrettably, after watching http://www.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win (specifically at the 29:00 minute mark and forward), it has suddenly become crystal clear to me that:



  • CCP will make more money by introducing RMT, regardless of the global and local press.

  • They will absolutely 100% move forward with these changes, including advantage based items.

  • From the business standpoint, it's actually the right way to go.

  • Spending any further time reading or commenting is just a complete waste of time.





So, while I vehemently despise CCP from a gamer's standpoint, I must applaud them for their bold business move.

The CSM meeting and any further comments from CCP are purely cosmetic, and will absolutely do nothing to change the outcome.



Fake Edit: Trust me, I don't like taking this viewpoint, but for those who threaten the death of Eve through whatever means necessary, go watch the video, and then tell me you have a leg to stand on.


Invading Poland was a Bold business move at one point as well.

- The invading country takes over the invaded countries resources.

- The invaders are 100% committed to doing so.

- From an Imperialist standpoint its the right move.

- Talking about it is just a waste of time. Talk never stopped an invading army.

Where would this world be if the OP's strategies were adopted....


HURR. My Internet spaceships is serious business, as important as ****** invading poland.

Rolling Eyes



You were suppose to say "Its business, not personal..."

And then throw up a link to Reagan/Bush 1980 fundraiser site.

No one puts out any effort these days.... so sad.


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These forums are archived and read-only