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blankseplocked Congratulations, Protestors. You've doomed your own cause.
 
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Demure Guise
Posted - 2011.06.27 00:19:00 - [151]
 

Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny
Originally by: Diamaht Nevain
Originally by: Benri Konpaku
Let's see how well CCP higher ups do without the patients' money. Twisted Evil


They'll gain a lot more players than they lose by continuing to add new avenues of game-play. They will appeal to a larger variety people and the entire population will benefit.

Personally I don't think any of you are going anywhere, but in case you are: Watch the door on your way out, and as always can I have your stuff?


Not with all the negativity being spread through Kotaku, PC Gamer, Massively, etc YARRRR!!

Exactly. The ****storm was so massive that the gaming media are all over it now, and hammering CCP damn well in the process. This will run and run.

Fi1ippo
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2011.06.27 00:23:00 - [152]
 

Here's a clue dip****: the people that pay CCP run this joint. When they leave, this place goes under.

Tron Flux
Caldari
Midnite Madness
Posted - 2011.06.27 00:24:00 - [153]
 

Originally by: Demure Guise
Originally by: Tron Flux
[I do, however, remember checking a box when I signed up that was a promise from me that I wouldn't do certain things. Like:

Eve ToS

16. You may not do anything that interferes with the ability of other EVE Online subscribers to enjoy the game or web site in accordance with its rules. This includes, but is not limited to, making inappropriate use of any public channels within the game and/or intentionally creating excessive latency (lag) by dumping cargo containers, corpses or other items in the game world.

Shooting a Memorial isn't mentioned in there and was an attention-grabbing visual display very roughly akin to burning a national flag. Players travelling about their business could easily go around Jita/Amarr to get where they want to go, and it certainly didn't stop them from getting from A to B. The protests weren't intended to cause a server crash and, indeed caused no server crashes whatsoever. Actually causing one isn't possible because the System's Jump Gates auto-lock at a certain point.

I saw no cans dropped, and it would be completely pointless because CCP delete excessive numbers of cans anyway. Note that I saw no evidence of people making Bookmark after Bookmark, either, which would probably have been a more effective ploy to cause lag if that was the aim of the protesters - which it wasn't. OK, some players may have had a bit of a wait to get into the system, but there you go - a five-minute wait certainly did them no permanent damage! Oh, and as long as I have been playing, Local Chat has never been moderated. (I wish some fellow protesters would keep out of the Help channel though. Rolling Eyes)

I did notice one buffoon suggest in Local that people should start suicide-ganking 'Noobs' (I bloody hate that term...) to **** other players off, and to the credit of the protesters, this was immediately censured. No way would I be part of that. Guys, we may be ****ed off but - no. Just... no.


You don't understand the "including, but not limited" clause, do you? The examples listed are a couple of instances that fall under the broader umbrella of interfering with other players' ability to enjoy the game within stated guidelines. If your stated goal was to do this--and it was--you broke the ToS.

Tron Flux
Caldari
Midnite Madness
Posted - 2011.06.27 00:28:00 - [154]
 

Originally by: Fi1ippo
Here's a clue dip****: the people that pay CCP run this joint. When they leave, this place goes under.


Well then, I wish you the best of luck in whatever game you move to.

Please back up your word with action and actually leave this game. We'll see what happens when you take off.

Muffin Smuggler
Posted - 2011.06.27 00:32:00 - [155]
 

i do love it when people tell the whiners and protesters to leave. you do realise that ccp is a business, without customers a business doesnt exist. where are all the shops that sell brightly coloured hand grenades marketed to children? theres no market for that, the shops dont exist. wheres the computer game that lies to, overcharges, rips off and insults its players? its gone, all the players left.

Felony Outright
Posted - 2011.06.27 00:35:00 - [156]
 

Tron Flux is a CCP Alt.

Thomas Orca
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.27 00:41:00 - [157]
 

Edited by: Thomas Orca on 27/06/2011 00:41:32
Originally by: Tron Flux


You don't understand the "including, but not limited" clause, do you? The examples listed are a couple of instances that fall under the broader umbrella of interfering with other players' ability to enjoy the game within stated guidelines. If your stated goal was to do this--and it was--you broke the ToS.


The goal was to shoot a space statue in a public place, but you have labeled me a terrorist, so my opinion is invalid.

buck herrick
101st Space Marine Force
Posted - 2011.06.27 00:59:00 - [158]
 

Edited by: buck herrick on 27/06/2011 01:01:59
Originally by: Tron Flux
Originally by: Jacoba Stalker
Inmates running the asylum?

Gotta clue for you; .


<sensible stuff......> In any case, breaking the rules you agreed to when you signed up to play shouldn't have any effect on anyone's business decisions. It should just get you banned.


what rules have been broken? just so i am aware please enlighten me.

eve is a sandbox remember, we are free to make our own paths and choose what and when we shoot.
IF we decide to shoot a monument, no rules have been broken. i am sorry if the infrastructure cant cater for this and the market makers/players/scammers in jita have to suffer.

if 1000 people decide to shoot an incursion together, or 1000 people decide to mine in the same system and shoot rocks, is that also 'breaking the rule'?

god forbid 1000 people should decide to jump into a system in 0.0 and shoot each other and disrupt the one person that wants to sit in station and look at his monocle in his mirro..oh wait ?

when a 1000 man gang fights in any local, there is lag, should all 1000 be subject to interfering with the enjoyment of the others? interesting perspective. The rules say says HTFU, your loss was a a result of decisions you made.


your point is badly made and factually incorrect.

PsyBlade
Caldari
Havoc Violence and Chaos
Merciless.
Posted - 2011.06.27 01:05:00 - [159]
 

Originally by: Tron Flux
Originally by: Fi1ippo
Here's a clue dip****: the people that pay CCP run this joint. When they leave, this place goes under.


Well then, I wish you the best of luck in whatever game you move to.

Please back up your word with action and actually leave this game. We'll see what happens when you take off.


Hi obvious CCP Alt (is your main Zulu per change? I think there are some fires to look after! Rolling Eyes )

oh, and don't worry, numbers are dropping, there is a reason CCP is crying for the CSM help... rats are leaving the ship...

Death Severus
Posted - 2011.06.27 01:09:00 - [160]
 

Why are so many people replying to this thread??....op is a ****ing idiot

Tron Flux
Caldari
Midnite Madness
Posted - 2011.06.27 01:13:00 - [161]
 

It's pointless to say this in the face of absurd ragers, but I'll say it anyway. I'm not a CCP alt.

I'm just a guy with some thoughts that don't agree with yours.

Mattias Kerensky
Minmatar
The Flying Tigers
Intergalactic Exports Group
Posted - 2011.06.27 01:16:00 - [162]
 

Originally by: Lonox

You're stomping your little foot and threatening to leave if "teh ebil" CCP doesn't meet your childish and unrealistic demands. Laughing Even more hilarious? When you realised noone cares and started your emo rage asshat campaign. Funnier still? When you all come groveling back.


No one cares? So how do you explain a million+ view ThreadTitan on the forums, combined with thousands of players protesting, and more threads in the last 24 hours than have been posted in the entire week before?

Nobody cares. Right.

Terra Mikael
Horizon Dynamics
Posted - 2011.06.27 01:25:00 - [163]
 

Others have said this but I think it needs reiterating:

OP went full re+ tard. You never go full re+tard. Laughing

Patri Andari
Caldari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
Posted - 2011.06.27 01:27:00 - [164]
 

@ OP

TL;DR

Businesses must balance benefit v. harm when choosing to do anything including enforcing TOS or franchise licences. The ones who realize this flourish. The ones who don't may win the argument but find no one around to applaud them.

Capitalism_101

You seem to be confusing corporations with governments. I see this often by lay people and those who have actually never had to run either in any real leadership capacity.

The focus of government is public safety and services. Rules are intended to help achieve that mission and infractions are (supposed to be) quickly dealt with and usually with zero tolerance. The fastest way to loose authority and credibility is to be seen as unfairly enforcing the law.

The focus of business (especially when investors are involved) is profits. Sure you do not want to ever allow your image to suffer by letting people drag your brand into the ground, but zero tolerance is never the chosen path. It is a balance between risk and reward, cost and benefit, but also between benefit and (potential) harm. When faced with the choice to take an action that may have more potential to do harm (loss of reputation) than benefit, a shrewd corporation will take pause.

This is why major educational publishers often turn a blind eye to the millions they loose to violations of copyright infringements done at educational establishments. It is also why major league sports do nothing to bar owners that broadcast their games "without express written consent."

Companies balance cost and potential loss of goodwill with their need to keep investors happy. This has nothing to do with fairness or enforcing law and order. It's business. Some people are pursued doggedly for violating contracts and even laws while others are given a slap on the wrist or ignored. Business is not overly concerned with fair only with profitability and growth.

If CCP were to do as you suggest they may come out stronger and in a great position with a sterling reputation as the company that wouldn't be pushed around, but if they don't they have to answer to investors. Hope you thought about that. Apparently CCP Zulu has.




PsyBlade
Caldari
Havoc Violence and Chaos
Merciless.
Posted - 2011.06.27 01:28:00 - [165]
 

Originally by: Mattias Kerensky
Originally by: Lonox

You're stomping your little foot and threatening to leave if "teh ebil" CCP doesn't meet your childish and unrealistic demands. Laughing Even more hilarious? When you realised noone cares and started your emo rage asshat campaign. Funnier still? When you all come groveling back.


No one cares? So how do you explain a million+ view ThreadTitan on the forums, combined with thousands of players protesting, and more threads in the last 24 hours than have been posted in the entire week before?

Nobody cares. Right.


These are not the (insert word) Riot'ers/protesters/haters you are looking for...

ps. I agree with your statement, people saying all is fine and yay for how CCP are handeling it are living in either:

1. A pink world, with pink fluffy ponies and free beer
2. Hiding their head in the sand, saying all will be ok (anyone remember WWII with england saying Germany would never invade a country Rolling Eyes )
3. A non-confirmed CCP Alt
4. playing the game with mommies Creditcard.

Kavol Valarius
Amarr
Original Ganksters
Destiny Corrupted.
Posted - 2011.06.27 01:30:00 - [166]
 

I've been living in a cave for the last few months.

What's going on???

Uuali
Posted - 2011.06.27 01:33:00 - [167]
 

Edited by: Uuali on 27/06/2011 01:33:20


I believe the terminology the OP is looking for is "Paying customers using a product with a virtual sandbox are using that to show their disagreement."


If CCP didn't want that then they shouldn't have created that sandbox. Better to have stuck with a web hosting company.

Carli Zandrya
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.06.27 01:35:00 - [168]
 

Ego > reality?

Given CCPZ's blog today, do you still think the protests and complaints haven't made a dent?

Welcome to the concept of acting on issues larger than yourself.


Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.06.27 01:47:00 - [169]
 

Edited by: Skex Relbore on 27/06/2011 01:52:54
Originally by: Tron Flux
Originally by: Skex Relbore
This isn't a prison and it isn't an asylum it's service they provide which we pay for. It's voluntary and we can and will take our money and go if they do not satisfy our needs/wants/desires.


Being responsive to the concerns of your customers is just good business sense. They wanted to see if they could get away with MT for power items/services and we gave them a resounding no. If they chose to go forward with P2W when they can do so with out my money.

What the protests and hell raising has done is make sure they can't sneak such changes through without us or the rest of the gaming community noticing.


You're not much for analogy or literary reference, are you?

How is this: the protests are a story told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.


I'm perfectly fine with analogies and literary reference. You just suck at making analogies.

Originally by: Tron Flux
Originally by: Skex Relbore
This isn't a prison and it isn't an asylum . . . .


Then why can't you leave? You keep saying you are, and yet you're still here. Sounds like some sort of prison to me. Maybe it's just in your mind though.


I paid for the service I can't get my money refunded so I plan on using my time as I see fit.

Oh and I happen to think that CCP can still be talked down from the wall, the fact that they feel compelled to bring the CSM in to address the issue is a pretty damned conclusive sign that they aren't willing to call our bluffs. As I pointed out in the Dice thread they're looking at a substantially greater financial loss from a paying player who quits than from a F2P player who quits.

They can see the statistics on subscription cancellations and know that people aren't bluffing.

Haunting Widow
SKEET ELITE
Posted - 2011.06.27 02:01:00 - [170]
 

<sniff> smells like..<sniff> smells like...<sniff sniff> yeah definitely smells like alt in here. Alt or idiot.. <sniffffff> I think both, but it's hard, the assault on my senses is just too much to tell for sure.

Lord Fuxaton
Minmatar
Federal Defence Union
Posted - 2011.06.27 02:04:00 - [171]
 

The more money eve makes, the more that goes into development, the faster we'll be landing our ships on the surface of a planet; getting out, and building a colony.

Kayrl Bheskagor
Posted - 2011.06.27 02:13:00 - [172]
 

Originally by: Tron Flux
Originally by: kestrael nanahara
There not giving the impression that inmates are running the asylum.... becuase were all leaving.


If there is a major problem with NEX, it's that watching the train wreck of rage-quitters claim to quit without actually quitting on the forums is actually more entertaining than playing EVE at the moment.


Exactly. The whiners are a small part, and an even smaller voice of the whole. They will still be here.

Kayrl Bheskagor
Posted - 2011.06.27 02:47:00 - [173]
 

Originally by: WachinDaGame DrinkinABud
Since when do prisoners pay to stay in jail? If a prisoner does not get what he wants can he simply leave?

What a terrible analogy.

This can only be related to a business practice. What if a pizza joint started saying they are not putting cheese on pizza anymore. If some people asked to get cheese and the company said "go f_ck yourself", don't you think those customers would leave? Don't you think they would tell other potential customers to not bother going there? Even customers that are OK with no cheese might look poorly on how they treated all those other former customers and wonder will they be next?

A pizza you spend a few minutes of time investment. With Eve most of us have spend YEARS investing time and effort. They said it themselves that it is OUR game, not theirs, and in my opinion that is what makes/made the game great for this long. This appears to be changing and that is why people are upset.

We are talking about a paradigm shift here, not the fact that MT will exist. If it is vanity only, I just won't buy it. If it is pay to win, then I'm out.


It was a metaphor, and yup, you completely "missed the boat". Lemme guess though, you'll reply with a MENSA level comment about how this has nothing to do with boats, right?

Speaking of stupid analogies though, your pizza example would be one. CCP isn't taking away anyone's cheese, they are offering MORE TYPES of cheese, but you can only get the fancy cheese, if you pay for it via real world money. If you don't want to pay real cash for the new types of cheese, then suck it up and keep using the old types of cheese.

All the work on the additions, and all the little perqs, need to be paid for, and the way to pay for them is to make sure the payment for them is funneled through the PLEX mechanism. If it only cost isk to buy them, people could get them with no direct interaction with the outside world. These new items, even if they have a direct effect on performance, will still matter little on the overall scale of the game, just like their effects have a very small effect on every other game where the same methodology is applied. And THAT, is also just like real life where EXACTLY the same thing happens. Someone can buy a fast motorcycle, or fancy bikes, or a mega expensive tennis racket, but if they are a loser, it isn't going to help their game much. In fact, it tends to spur people on around them and makes it just that much more satisfying to kick their ass, along with their fancy gear. If someone is a good player, and also has the fancy pay-gear, chances are good they'd probably kick your ass anyway without it. The gear is moot.

Another true fact, it's not "your game". Never was, never will be unless you buy shares in CCP. You are RENTING the PRIVILEGE to PLAY the game. You own NOTHING. You are paying for a time-wasting form of entertainment. Read the AUP and the EULA and anything else where it SPECIFICALLY explains who owns what. You own nothing in Eve. It's no different than you renting time on a tennis court, or buying laps at a go-cart track, or paying to watch a movie. CCP is providing a form of entertainment, and that costs money. That's what the subscriptions are for. That's what the PLEX are for. Time for people like you to wake up. Righteous indignation is fine, but if you're as uninformed and narrow minded as you are, it just makes you laughable. "Paradigm"? LOL. Clueless . . .

Is it going to be a "game changer"? No. Just like it HASN'T been in every other game you could think of where they did the same thing. CCP isn't breaking new ground - it works in countless other games and generates more money for the game company. Do I think CCP is the "most awesomest game company ever"? Hell no, but I also know they aren't a charity. They're a business. The clueless and the whiners will no doubt leave, but that won't be much of a loss. The people who "play" Eve will still be playing Eve.

Maverick2011
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.27 03:01:00 - [174]
 

Guess what sherlock? we are not terrorists. We are PAYING THESE IMBECILES. So STFU and stop being a spineless coward who pays for something and dont have the guts to voice your opinion.

Kayrl Bheskagor
Posted - 2011.06.27 03:03:00 - [175]
 

Originally by: Torothanax
Edited by: Torothanax on 26/06/2011 20:45:34
Originally by: Olvel
Players insisting on a promise that non-vanity items will never, ever appear on the NEX would be equally idiotic.
Um not really. Unless CCP is seriously mismanaging thier income, they make PLENTY off of the subscription system they've used until now. I'd say most of the long term EVE players hate anything to do with MT's. It goes against everything Eve has ever been. That said, I also think most players don't have that much issue with "shiny" and "for looks" being charged for if it's done in a reasonable manner.

Not vanity items is a deal breaker for a very large chunk of their long term players though.


I doubt you're a spokesman for any sizable group or number of "long term players" (even if you consider yourself one). Not even a quorum. Out of all the online players, how many of them actually participated in the "actions"? Very few, because, a large part of the protests were done by a vocal fraction of a minority and their alts. Same as in any/every game. How many "old" players take the time to post on fora? Again, a very small minority.

If you actually spoke for the long term players, it'd likely be obvious to anyone paying attention that the "old" players already know how to play - and they don't "need" vanity items or pay-to-win items, either. They're playing Eve, not crying about things they haven't used or needed in the past.

Like every other game developer with a forum, people who post are the vocal minority. There are a lot of statistics and metrics that can be gleaned from log files that paint a considerably larger and more accurate picture of the game reality than a handful (compared to the total player base) of people protesting in a trade hub or crying on a forum.

PsyBlade
Caldari
Havoc Violence and Chaos
Merciless.
Posted - 2011.06.27 03:04:00 - [176]
 

Originally by: Lord Fuxaton
The more money eve makes, the more that goes into development, the faster we'll be landing our ships on the surface of a planet; getting out, and building a colony.


you mean with mechs and then terraforming...

oh wai...

Perpetuum Online is already there and doing it in a sandbox enviroment...

oh I went there! Evil or Very Mad

lethal61
Posted - 2011.06.27 03:08:00 - [177]
 

To all those quitting please send your stuff to me via an ingame contract please Razz

PsyBlade
Caldari
Havoc Violence and Chaos
Merciless.
Posted - 2011.06.27 03:09:00 - [178]
 

Originally by: lethal61
To all those quitting please send your stuff to me via an ingame contract please Razz


sure, send me 2bil isk and I will double it!

Kayrl Bheskagor
Posted - 2011.06.27 03:23:00 - [179]
 

Originally by: Ayieka
jesus, does every anti-protest poster talk down to people?



Only the ones that need it. Mohammed, does every protester have to be a narrow minded shut-in?

Kayrl Bheskagor
Posted - 2011.06.27 03:47:00 - [180]
 

Originally by: Tron Flux
Originally by: Eleena Wolf
Edited by: Eleena Wolf on 26/06/2011 21:33:01
I agree with the outcome, though not the reasons the op has stated.

The damage has already been done, doubtful that ccp walks away with any credibility after this, as perception is reality.

I would like to believe the csm meeting will have a positive impact, but it is most likely too little too late.
Media has already hammered ccp reputation and continues to do so. Many players have already stated open distrust of ccp, this compounded by the lack an official response, has damaged ccp even further.

I see this ending in one of a few ways.

1. eve loses enough subscribers, they have no recourse but to make mt of the bad kind part of eve, in an attempt to stay profitable.

2. Pride gets the better of ccp, they decide to stay course as it were, ensuring an exodus of older players in hopes of attracting new players. a huge, HUGE, gamble at best.

3. Ccp decides to cut its losses and sells the rights to another developer or competitor, even this does not garuntee eve's existence as an mmo. many times when a game developer sells to another, the buying party buys the rights to the code. That has ensured many games never see the light of day again, be it in the form of a sequel or a remake, because the new owner can charge whatever they want for licensing, royalties and what not.

4. If somehow ccp survives this, they fix whats wrong, actually talk to the playerbase, and certain someone issues an apology, eve still exist possibly better than it was. This given the history is the least likely to happen.

I hope im wrong and outcome #4 happens, but until proven otherwise, I stand by what i said.


The first 3 of your points hinge on the idea that enough people will leave to impact CCP's bottom line. That's our primary disagreement. My opinion is that it won't happen.
But I have no hard data on the total number os subs CCP has at the moment, so I can't say for sure.
If the unsub number is high enough to make CCP worry, things will probably change. If it's not, things probably won't.

My bet at the moment is that the number isn't high enough.


Every MMO I've every played always had cries of rage-quits when something came down the pipe they didn't like. It was seemingly always talk, because the games survived many such episodes and the online numbers never plummeted as predicted by the "inmates who run the asylum", or so they like to think.

The other thing that the rage-blind people don't see, is that for any that leave, it is also possible that p2w items that are independent of sp might actually encourage new players to join. Why? Because there is no way to catch up to players in ships or skills in such a time dependent game. Whether any of the current players agree or not, game after game, always, inevitably, takes items that older players had to grind for, and makes them available to new players at a fraction of the cost and effort. At the point that there is one too many easy-mode updates, that's the straw that breaks the vet players' backs and takes away their sense of accomplishment in the game. Eve has a long way to go, I think, before the game-breaking updates add up to that point, and this new proposal is far from a game breaker.

It's funny how people talk about how CCP gets so trashed in the news, and Eve will suffer the consequences. Eve is insignificant in the gaming community. There are thousands of games that no one even has ever heard of that has a larger player base than Eve will likely ever have. Eve and CCP are very small fish in a really big MMO ocean. They do some cool ****, but in the end, Eve and CCP and what Eve's players do, really doesn't count for much of anything outside the Eve community. Apparently, people have an inflated sense of their import because they are an "out of the box" MMO player??


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