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blankseplocked Congratulations, Protestors. You've doomed your own cause.
 
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Evet Morrel
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2011.06.26 22:37:00 - [121]
 

Edited by: Evet Morrel on 26/06/2011 22:39:35
Originally by: Ayieka
jesus, does every anti-protest poster talk down to people?



Does every protester have to act like a 2-year old with a dirty diaper?


Supercilious bull, why is it that those who argue that CCP have the 'right' to make a profit confuse the developer with the investor. Why do these folk find it so hard when the consumer - read the passionate end user - have a view about the future of the product, god forbid we who use this product, who have shaped it, should have an impact above some remote investor.

The answer dear Ayieka is that they were all bottle fed and call their fathers sir!

Tomasa de Torquemada
Soldiers of Irn Bru
OMEGA.
Posted - 2011.06.26 22:39:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Scerolikk Teromni
Originally by: Tron Flux
The reason for this is that CCP can't allow the perception that the inmates can run the asylum.


Umm.............. what?

EVE isn't a prison, it's a video game, and CCP isn't a government, it's a business. Businesses are ruled by their customers. If you make your customers unhappy, they leave, and if enough customers leave, well, you won't have much of a business. If CCP refuses to listen to the protests and accelerate their MT plans to prove that they "[don't] play ball with virtual terrorists" well then so long CCP, you had a good run.


Then why do they not just go ahead and leave rather than jam up the systems by violating ToS and the EULA?

Katra Novac
Posted - 2011.06.26 22:40:00 - [123]
 

Originally by: Tron Flux


In my opinion, businesses are not run by customers. They are run by executives and possibly investors. If losing you and others were not planned into CCP's strategy, shame on them for not taking that possibility into account. That's bad business.



Business are not run by customers, they are run for customers. Without customers you would not have a business.

Eleena Wolf
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.06.26 22:41:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: Tron Flux
Originally by: Eleena Wolf
Edited by: Eleena Wolf on 26/06/2011 21:33:01
I agree with the outcome, though not the reasons the op has stated.

The damage has already been done, doubtful that ccp walks away with any credibility after this, as perception is reality.

I would like to believe the csm meeting will have a positive impact, but it is most likely too little too late.
Media has already hammered ccp reputation and continues to do so. Many players have already stated open distrust of ccp, this compounded by the lack an official response, has damaged ccp even further.

I see this ending in one of a few ways.

1. eve loses enough subscribers, they have no recourse but to make mt of the bad kind part of eve, in an attempt to stay profitable.

2. Pride gets the better of ccp, they decide to stay course as it were, ensuring an exodus of older players in hopes of attracting new players. a huge, HUGE, gamble at best.

3. Ccp decides to cut its losses and sells the rights to another developer or competitor, even this does not garuntee eve's existence as an mmo. many times when a game developer sells to another, the buying party buys the rights to the code. That has ensured many games never see the light of day again, be it in the form of a sequel or a remake, because the new owner can charge whatever they want for licensing, royalties and what not.

4. If somehow ccp survives this, they fix whats wrong, actually talk to the playerbase, and certain someone issues an apology, eve still exist possibly better than it was. This given the history is the least likely to happen.

I hope im wrong and outcome #4 happens, but until proven otherwise, I stand by what i said.


The first 3 of your points hinge on the idea that enough people will leave to impact CCP's bottom line. That's our primary disagreement. My opinion is that it won't happen.
But I have no hard data on the total number os subs CCP has at the moment, so I can't say for sure.
If the unsub number is high enough to make CCP worry, things will probably change. If it's not, things probably won't.

My bet at the moment is that the number isn't high enough.


current number of unsubscribed 4484
https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0AtUHbyNk0JSGdHR1TDhrRVhhQTUzLUMyVTNZdjJUaHc&output=html

As for where we disagree on this matter, how many people are largely undecided on this matter or who are going to quit and simply did not see fit to resort the methods of rioting and riotposting. Your points hinge on the majority of players staying. 4000+ people canceling subscriptions at this point in time is worrying to ccp. Dust514 still needs money to be developed, World of Darkness needs money to be developed. Bad press discourages new people who might have otherwise tried and become regular subscribers. No new players means no growth, no growth means people get bored and leave. This has happened to other mmos. Some are banking on ccp to somehow come out of this intact. I just do not see that happening.

Ayieka
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.26 22:41:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Tomasa de Torquemada


Then why do they not just go ahead and leave rather than jam up the systems by violating ToS and the EULA?



i think filling up a system is only against the rules if the objective is to crash the server. people were flooding jita to make traders have a hard time.

Jimmy Duce
Chaotic Tranquility
Posted - 2011.06.26 22:42:00 - [126]
 

Quote:

Are you moving beyond VANITY AUR items?






Greed, is so distructive...



OP TR&DR


I've yet to get an answer to the only question that matters.

Eleena Wolf
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.06.26 22:43:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: Evet Morrel
Edited by: Evet Morrel on 26/06/2011 22:39:35
Originally by: Ayieka
jesus, does every anti-protest poster talk down to people?



Does every protester have to act like a 2-year old with a dirty diaper?


Supercilious bull, why is it that those who argue that CCP have the 'right' to make a profit confuse the developer with the investor. Why do these folk find it so hard when the consumer - read the passionate end user - have a view about the future of the product, god forbid we who use this product, who have shaped it, should have an impact above some remote investor.

The answer dear Ayieka is that they were all bottle fed and call their fathers sir!


hey! funny seeing you here and not on the ig summit. :P

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
Posted - 2011.06.26 22:44:00 - [128]
 

Originally by: kestrael nanahara
There not giving the impression that inmates are running the asylum.... becuase were all leaving.


And since you are leaving, as in not a paying customer, you are not even on the radar at CCP.

That's why they aren't responding to the asinine demands of a bunch of dead beats. Why would they? You are gone. You just don't have the dignity to do it gracefully. So they'll let you pollute the forums and shoot statues until you get tired of them ignoring you and simply go away.

They are, I imagine, working to bring a new demographic into the game, as they likely have been for some time. And an influx of new and enthusiastic players over losing a few self important, arrogant, whiners who revel in trying to run their company for them can only be good for the game.

I, for one, look forward to seeing what the future brings.

Mr Epeen Cool

Tron Flux
Caldari
Midnite Madness
Posted - 2011.06.26 22:44:00 - [129]
 

Let's focus for a moment on one particular issue. There are enough people of sound mind reading and replying to this thread that I want to engage in a specific discussion.

Let's take all of the current stuff out of a hypothetical situation for a moment.

Given that a player has clearly violated the Terms of Service, do you think that player should be sanctioned in some way?

Let's not read into it more than that because there are a lot of ways to interpret the ToS.

Let's just say someone has done this. Do you apply consequences out of principle or do you not?

Why or why not?

Benilopax
Gallente
The Ashen Lion Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.26 22:45:00 - [130]
 

What's clear is that CCP have not attempted to break up the protests, ban anyone or even threaten to do so.

They accept that players are unhappy and that they need to change things.

Otherwise they would have healed zero everyone who went near that statue.

Gorion Wassenar
Caldari
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2011.06.26 22:48:00 - [131]
 

EULA gonna EULA.

Get back to me when you won't compare people's frustrations, as a paying customer to a company that is supposed to provide a certain service and then substantial evidence showing that they might change their service to something they don't like, as criminals.

Tron Flux
Caldari
Midnite Madness
Posted - 2011.06.26 22:50:00 - [132]
 

Originally by: Eleena Wolf
Originally by: Tron Flux
Originally by: Eleena Wolf
Edited by: Eleena Wolf on 26/06/2011 21:33:01
I agree with the outcome, though not the reasons the op has stated.

The damage has already been done, doubtful that ccp walks away with any credibility after this, as perception is reality.

I would like to believe the csm meeting will have a positive impact, but it is most likely too little too late.
Media has already hammered ccp reputation and continues to do so. Many players have already stated open distrust of ccp, this compounded by the lack an official response, has damaged ccp even further.

I see this ending in one of a few ways.

1. eve loses enough subscribers, they have no recourse but to make mt of the bad kind part of eve, in an attempt to stay profitable.

2. Pride gets the better of ccp, they decide to stay course as it were, ensuring an exodus of older players in hopes of attracting new players. a huge, HUGE, gamble at best.

3. Ccp decides to cut its losses and sells the rights to another developer or competitor, even this does not garuntee eve's existence as an mmo. many times when a game developer sells to another, the buying party buys the rights to the code. That has ensured many games never see the light of day again, be it in the form of a sequel or a remake, because the new owner can charge whatever they want for licensing, royalties and what not.

4. If somehow ccp survives this, they fix whats wrong, actually talk to the playerbase, and certain someone issues an apology, eve still exist possibly better than it was. This given the history is the least likely to happen.

I hope im wrong and outcome #4 happens, but until proven otherwise, I stand by what i said.


The first 3 of your points hinge on the idea that enough people will leave to impact CCP's bottom line. That's our primary disagreement. My opinion is that it won't happen.
But I have no hard data on the total number os subs CCP has at the moment, so I can't say for sure.
If the unsub number is high enough to make CCP worry, things will probably change. If it's not, things probably won't.

My bet at the moment is that the number isn't high enough.


current number of unsubscribed 4484
https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0AtUHbyNk0JSGdHR1TDhrRVhhQTUzLUMyVTNZdjJUaHc&output=html

As for where we disagree on this matter, how many people are largely undecided on this matter or who are going to quit and simply did not see fit to resort the methods of rioting and riotposting. Your points hinge on the majority of players staying. 4000+ people canceling subscriptions at this point in time is worrying to ccp. Dust514 still needs money to be developed, World of Darkness needs money to be developed. Bad press discourages new people who might have otherwise tried and become regular subscribers. No new players means no growth, no growth means people get bored and leave. This has happened to other mmos. Some are banking on ccp to somehow come out of this intact. I just do not see that happening.


Well, it's nice to agree about what we disagree on. Like I said, I have no hard data. I think ~4k unsubs are a non-issue to CCP. But I am certainly willing and ready to be wrong about that. We'll just have to wait and see. The chances are that we will never know. As you pointed out, there are other logical reasons for the same outcomes as the ones I suggested. If CCP comes out after the CSM meeting and does something I predicted, I won't be trolling around here saying that I told you so, and that I was right all along.

CyberGh0st
Minmatar
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2011.06.26 22:51:00 - [133]
 

Edited by: CyberGh0st on 26/06/2011 22:54:58
Edited by: CyberGh0st on 26/06/2011 22:52:16
Originally by: Tron Flux
it sets a bad precedent that violating the ToS in large numbers is an effective negotiating method.


No ToS has been violated so your OP does not make any sense.

We were just shooting a statue as a way of showing our cause, since when is that not allowed?
Nothing crashed either, afaik, cause most of the time Jita was capped at 1500 players.
Same goes for Amarr and the other trade hubs, no harm was done, at all.

And Rens and Dodixie were accessible, so the traders could trade there if they really needed.

Tron Flux
Caldari
Midnite Madness
Posted - 2011.06.26 22:53:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: Benilopax
What's clear is that CCP have not attempted to break up the protests, ban anyone or even threaten to do so.

They accept that players are unhappy and that they need to change things.

Otherwise they would have healed zero everyone who went near that statue.


That's a good point, actually. The lack of action could be a sign that CCP is worried about losing subs. Like I said, without hard data on total subs, it's impossible to forecast a behavior.

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2011.06.26 22:54:00 - [135]
 

I don't know what this here hubbub is about, but I just wanted to know..

Is it still cool to say 'can I have your stuff?'

Anon Forumalt6858
Posted - 2011.06.26 22:56:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: Tron Flux
Let's focus for a moment on one particular issue. There are enough people of sound mind reading and replying to this thread that I want to engage in a specific discussion.

Let's take all of the current stuff out of a hypothetical situation for a moment.

Given that a player has clearly violated the Terms of Service, do you think that player should be sanctioned in some way?

Let's not read into it more than that because there are a lot of ways to interpret the ToS.

Let's just say someone has done this. Do you apply consequences out of principle or do you not?

Why or why not?


Sorry, shoehorning the conversation into one particular angle of one particular topic that only you're interested in isn't open dialogue. Not going to engage in a prefabricated discussion on your turf, but thanks for asking.

If you're open to discussing the actual heart of the issue as opposed to a splintered off aspect that really has no bearing on the real problem at hand, let's talk about corporate responsibility in not deceiving or reneging on their customers.

Tron Flux
Caldari
Midnite Madness
Posted - 2011.06.26 23:11:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: Anon Forumalt6858
Originally by: Tron Flux
Let's focus for a moment on one particular issue. There are enough people of sound mind reading and replying to this thread that I want to engage in a specific discussion.

Let's take all of the current stuff out of a hypothetical situation for a moment.

Given that a player has clearly violated the Terms of Service, do you think that player should be sanctioned in some way?

Let's not read into it more than that because there are a lot of ways to interpret the ToS.

Let's just say someone has done this. Do you apply consequences out of principle or do you not?

Why or why not?


Sorry, shoehorning the conversation into one particular angle of one particular topic that only you're interested in isn't open dialogue. Not going to engage in a prefabricated discussion on your turf, but thanks for asking.

If you're open to discussing the actual heart of the issue as opposed to a splintered off aspect that really has no bearing on the real problem at hand, let's talk about corporate responsibility in not deceiving or reneging on their customers.


If you don't want to participate in the discussion, you have total freedom not to. I'm not going to ask CCP to ban you for not posting. :D

But I will say that perhaps you have corporations confused with non-profits. Corporations have 2 responsibilities. 1. don't break the applicable law. 2. profit.

As far as I can remember, I never got a signed contract from CCP that said that they would or wouldn't do any given X. CCP has broken no contract and done nothing illegal.

I do, however, remember checking a box when I signed up that was a promise from me that I wouldn't do certain things. Like:

Eve ToS

16. You may not do anything that interferes with the ability of other EVE Online subscribers to enjoy the game or web site in accordance with its rules. This includes, but is not limited to, making inappropriate use of any public channels within the game and/or intentionally creating excessive latency (lag) by dumping cargo containers, corpses or other items in the game world.

That may not be the core issue that you want to talk about, and that's fine. But at this moment, I want to talk about this. Feel free to take part in the discussion or not. If enough people want to talk, we'll talk. In no one is interested, then the thread will die. Unless I decide to change the subject again back to what some people want to talk about. :)


Dorian Tormak
M0N0LITH
Posted - 2011.06.26 23:17:00 - [138]
 

Edited by: Dorian Tormak on 26/06/2011 23:17:37
Originally by: WachinDaGame DrinkinABud
Since when do prisoners pay to stay in jail? If a prisoner does not get what he wants can he simply leave?What a terrible analogy.

This can only be related to a business practice. What if a pizza joint started saying they are not putting cheese on pizza anymore. If some people asked to get cheese and the company said "go f_ck yourself", don't you think those customers would leave? Don't you think they would tell other potential customers to not bother going there? Even customers that are OK with no cheese might look poorly on how they treated all those other former customers and wonder will they be next?

A pizza you spend a few minutes of time investment. With Eve most of us have spend YEARS investing time and effort. They said it themselves that it is OUR game, not theirs, and in my opinion that is what makes/made the game great for this long. This appears to be changing and that is why people are upset.

We are talking about a paradigm shift here, not the fact that MT will exist. If it is vanity only, I just won't buy it. If it is pay to win, then I'm out.


I agree with this 100%

Kimpaz
Posted - 2011.06.26 23:26:00 - [139]
 

Pay to win would require that skillpoints got added, not that you just bought a great ship with Aurum. Why aren't people whining about plex more since you can buy loads of stuff with it?

Telven Stareal
Posted - 2011.06.26 23:27:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: Tron Flux
If CCP has any sense at all--and I'm not sure if they do--the result of this meeting will be to accelerate the deployment of non-vanity items.

It they had common business sense they woul have addressed the issue with the customers.

The reason for this is that CCP can't allow the perception that the inmates can run the asylum. If the execs make a choice that can be in any way construed as a victory for the bedlam of the last several days, it sets a bad precedent that violating the ToS in large numbers is an effective negotiating method.

Paying customers, not inmates. This idea leads to the perception that we should accept everything, because as their customer base we shouldn't have a say. However, there is no excuse for players attempting to "damage" the game or ruin if for others in an attempt to be heard.

The obvious way for CCP to get out of this with some semblance of credibility is to have the meeting, tell the CSM what's up, and move forward--most likely at a faster pace to show that they really mean it. If non-vanity items really weren't planned, they should throw them in there to make the point loud and clear. CCP doesn't play ball with virtual terrorists.

No the obvious way to handle this is to addess the customer's concerns and not with blogs that simply restate what the problems are, but fail to answer anything with a solid answer.

A secondary option would be to backtrack slightly, but invoke the banhammer mercilessly against everyone who has violated the ToS. That would be the equivalent of saying, "We hear you. But we don't accept the way you made your voice heard."

I agree with this fully.

Frankly, I'd like to see some combination of both options. Rules that don't get enforced, or are enforced intermittently, aren't really worth much of anything. Either enforce the rules or change them.

Yes, this is correct.

In any case, there's not a good option for those of who decided to intentionally wreck the trade hubs. You've ruined your cause.

The only thing that should happen is ban hammer, if CCP use them asa reason for going forward with their plans and not responding to the honest questions, then they were going to do it anyway and have zero customer service.
~Tron Flux


Lol, I messed up the quote, but the fact is CCP may have avoided most of this by addressing the customers concern in the first place and by being upfront. Not that I agree with the actions of those ppl responsible for attempting to damage the game.

JC Anderson
Caldari
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2011.06.26 23:27:00 - [141]
 


Vladkar
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.06.26 23:33:00 - [142]
 

Since when do inmates pay to be kept in an asylum...

Kevric
Talocan Scrap Metal and Recycling
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.06.26 23:39:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: Tron Flux
it sets a bad precedent that violating the ToS in large numbers is an effective negotiating method.

People will go around wrecking trade hubs every time they feel like it, over any detail they decide they want. Given the insanity logic of many of the ragers, I really can't say they I want any of them in charge of the direction or future of the game.


lolwut?

Tron how me where in the ToS it says we can't disrupt tradehubs.

kthxbye

JC Anderson
Caldari
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2011.06.26 23:39:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Vladkar
Since when do inmates pay to be kept in an asylum...


I tried to think of some sort of witty reply to this... But alas I can't think of anything.

Good point.

Demure Guise
Posted - 2011.06.26 23:53:00 - [145]
 

Originally by: Tron Flux
[I do, however, remember checking a box when I signed up that was a promise from me that I wouldn't do certain things. Like:

Eve ToS

16. You may not do anything that interferes with the ability of other EVE Online subscribers to enjoy the game or web site in accordance with its rules. This includes, but is not limited to, making inappropriate use of any public channels within the game and/or intentionally creating excessive latency (lag) by dumping cargo containers, corpses or other items in the game world.

Shooting a Memorial isn't mentioned in there and was an attention-grabbing visual display very roughly akin to burning a national flag. Players travelling about their business could easily go around Jita/Amarr to get where they want to go, and it certainly didn't stop them from getting from A to B. The protests weren't intended to cause a server crash and, indeed caused no server crashes whatsoever. Actually causing one isn't possible because the System's Jump Gates auto-lock at a certain point.

I saw no cans dropped, and it would be completely pointless because CCP delete excessive numbers of cans anyway. Note that I saw no evidence of people making Bookmark after Bookmark, either, which would probably have been a more effective ploy to cause lag if that was the aim of the protesters - which it wasn't. OK, some players may have had a bit of a wait to get into the system, but there you go - a five-minute wait certainly did them no permanent damage! Oh, and as long as I have been playing, Local Chat has never been moderated. (I wish some fellow protesters would keep out of the Help channel though. Rolling Eyes)

I did notice one buffoon suggest in Local that people should start suicide-ganking 'Noobs' (I bloody hate that term...) to **** other players off, and to the credit of the protesters, this was immediately censured. No way would I be part of that. Guys, we may be ****ed off but - no. Just... no.

Benri Konpaku
Posted - 2011.06.26 23:59:00 - [146]
 

Let's see how well CCP higher ups do without the patients' money. Twisted Evil

Diamaht Nevain
Gallente
Avatar Union
Posted - 2011.06.27 00:09:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: Benri Konpaku
Let's see how well CCP higher ups do without the patients' money. Twisted Evil


They'll gain a lot more players than they lose by continuing to add new avenues of game-play. They will appeal to a larger variety people and the entire population will benefit.

Personally I don't think any of you are going anywhere, but in case you are: Watch the door on your way out, and as always can I have your stuff?

Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.06.27 00:10:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: Diamaht Nevain
Originally by: Benri Konpaku
Let's see how well CCP higher ups do without the patients' money. Twisted Evil


They'll gain a lot more players than they lose by continuing to add new avenues of game-play. They will appeal to a larger variety people and the entire population will benefit.

Personally I don't think any of you are going anywhere, but in case you are: Watch the door on your way out, and as always can I have your stuff?


Not with all the negativity being spread through Kotaku, PC Gamer, Massively, etc YARRRR!!

Illadelph Justice
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.27 00:11:00 - [149]
 

You clearly have no idea how social movements work. Even spaceship social movements

Chopper Rollins
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.27 00:18:00 - [150]
 

OP is a joke, " My company will be happy to do some real, scientific research on the eve players."

It's this attitude of being above the 'subjects' that leads to the contemptuous drivel in the Fearless article. I've heard marketing hacks sitting around talking about their customers being predictable simpletons. A harmless attitude springing from low self-esteem that hurts nothing until it prompts a swagger too far. Then it's time to look for a new job.

Remember OP, you're an ignorant joke, your posts prove it.



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