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Gevlin
Minmatar
Lone Star Exploration
Lone Star Partners
Posted - 2011.06.28 21:49:00 - [1231]
 

I hope the call of the CSM to Iceland works out.

I think some posters are beginning to believe that they are running CCP, and are drumming up crowds to ensure that they listen to. This is leading to GroupThink against CCP.

I hope that CSM insures that they don't have lack of impartial leadership

I personally think there are trolls feeding the frenzy because they succeeding in making some care bear tears from the most hardened of players.




Angeliq
Minmatar
Soimii Patriei
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.28 22:32:00 - [1232]
 


Andre Coeurl
Gallente
TOHA Heavy Industries
TOHA Conglomerate
Posted - 2011.06.29 00:32:00 - [1233]
 

Originally by: Fiberton
Here is the skinny. CCP you fcked up big time. It is ok we all do it. Be it business or personel lives we all do it. I do think some folks are flipping out just to make a big stink. They believe it is the only way you will listen. In business money talks BS walks.

Here is your problem you did not think about. We already pay 15 bucks a month per account and the whole plex issue gives you a nice boost aswell. This pays for you making EVE, Dust 514 and that other game. Why the hell would we pay more money for what we already payed for.

Charging us for clothes and crap in a game we already pay a subscription for that pays the designers to make.

CCP you have lost your mind. You realize that Eve has some of the brightest minds in the world playing it?

How on earth will you explain to them that they pay for the game to be designed and then when certain aspects are made they pay more after that.

There is a old saying my friend. If it is not broke don`t fix it.



Among others, this post sums up most of the playerbase feelings.
We ALREADY pay to play the game, many of us PAID for years to get their characters-relationships-abilities to a certain point, and then you suddenly change the WHOLE meaning and concept of the game by introducing Micropayment?
One of the things that has made EVE stand out among games has been the sandbox concept, connected to the complete self-sufficiency of the game and the never-boring complexity of player-driven economy.
Introducing an external factor in it will destroy this side.
It has been already a BAD idea to create PLEX, it is a complete destruction of the "sandbox concept" to have any item in game you can buy via plexes.
CCP, since you did it already, it looks like you are being driven by people who don't understand the playerbase anymore.
It would be especially sad to lose this game, and it would be even worse if CCP would do so following the same idiocy which led Iceland to being bankrupt.
Get back to what worked so well until now, don't be fooled around by the baboons of corporate vampirism.

I'm somewhat of an old player and I invested a lot of time and money in this game, but what I'm sure about anyway is, if there won't be a clear statement announcing soon that the whole concept has been a mistake, and that there will NEVER be ANY microtransaction in EVE, I'll let my accounts expire.
No reason to go on paying if there's going to be microtransactions, of any kind. Better to play something which is only a MT game, from the start, then.

As a side note, be aware that some alliances are already thinking to ban all and any Aurum usage to their members.

Fiberton
StarFleet Enterprises
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2011.06.29 01:10:00 - [1234]
 

OK I read the CCP finacial statments. 17% of the stock , second largest stock holder owned by a guys investment company who`s father embezzeled money, his mothers ex husband created the american **** party and was involved it seems with the Russian mafia until atleast 2000s era ... um Russian bots , Russia investment owner...ok so maybe that is all insane ..CEO only owns 2.8%..51.27% owned by 2 investment companies.. Lets be honest here CCP has no real say about anything. 2 investment companies give you your marching orders. Now I love this game but wow to the poster who showed us all that.. I will keep reading but WOW I am blown away with that intel.

Enkill Eridos
Draconian Enforcers Available To Hire
Property Management Solutions
Posted - 2011.06.29 01:20:00 - [1235]
 

Originally by: Andre Coeurl
Originally by: Fiberton
Here is the skinny. CCP you fcked up big time. It is ok we all do it. Be it business or personel lives we all do it. I do think some folks are flipping out just to make a big stink. They believe it is the only way you will listen. In business money talks BS walks.

Here is your problem you did not think about. We already pay 15 bucks a month per account and the whole plex issue gives you a nice boost aswell. This pays for you making EVE, Dust 514 and that other game. Why the hell would we pay more money for what we already payed for.

Charging us for clothes and crap in a game we already pay a subscription for that pays the designers to make.

CCP you have lost your mind. You realize that Eve has some of the brightest minds in the world playing it?

How on earth will you explain to them that they pay for the game to be designed and then when certain aspects are made they pay more after that.

There is a old saying my friend. If it is not broke don`t fix it.



Among others, this post sums up most of the playerbase feelings.
We ALREADY pay to play the game, many of us PAID for years to get their characters-relationships-abilities to a certain point, and then you suddenly change the WHOLE meaning and concept of the game by introducing Micropayment?
One of the things that has made EVE stand out among games has been the sandbox concept, connected to the complete self-sufficiency of the game and the never-boring complexity of player-driven economy.
Introducing an external factor in it will destroy this side.
It has been already a BAD idea to create PLEX, it is a complete destruction of the "sandbox concept" to have any item in game you can buy via plexes.
CCP, since you did it already, it looks like you are being driven by people who don't understand the playerbase anymore.
It would be especially sad to lose this game, and it would be even worse if CCP would do so following the same idiocy which led Iceland to being bankrupt.
Get back to what worked so well until now, don't be fooled around by the baboons of corporate vampirism.

I'm somewhat of an old player and I invested a lot of time and money in this game, but what I'm sure about anyway is, if there won't be a clear statement announcing soon that the whole concept has been a mistake, and that there will NEVER be ANY microtransaction in EVE, I'll let my accounts expire.
No reason to go on paying if there's going to be microtransactions, of any kind. Better to play something which is only a MT game, from the start, then.

As a side note, be aware that some alliances are already thinking to ban all and any Aurum usage to their members.


I hope that they don't remove NeX from the game. I hope they don't use it to charge for anything but ship skins, clothing, and maybe the ability to go back to the old way, or anything else that is special that really means nothing to how the game is played. Certain skills that have been taken out from the game I wouldn't object to either (DED Connections for example since it doesn't really unbalance the game.) Ships and SP I hope never happens. Plus you can buy nex stuff for isk as long as someone seeds it on the market (like plexes) So I don't see the problem.

As a side note, in your reply please attach the alliances that are banning aurum use..that way I can recruit those people. Or so I can just grief them..as imo that's the only way to protest anything in EVE.

Auric Aurumfinger
Posted - 2011.06.29 01:22:00 - [1236]
 

New York City to Reykjavik Roundtrip - US$ 1,400.00 or 20 Monocles. Laughing

Ard UnjiiGo
Meatshield Bastards
Posted - 2011.06.29 02:00:00 - [1237]
 

Edited by: Ard UnjiiGo on 29/06/2011 02:01:19
Dear Mr. Gylfason

Spare me the "deep mutual trust" BS. This is EVE. Have you ever played your own game?

I want a firm business commitment to not add ANY (not just "gold ammo") P2W microtransactions EVER.

You keep that commitment and I'll keep subscribing.

Yours in a mutually beneficial (for now) business transaction,

Ard

Fuamnach
Posted - 2011.06.29 02:35:00 - [1238]
 

Edited by: Fuamnach on 29/06/2011 02:37:10
Edited by: Fuamnach on 29/06/2011 02:36:28
The horse was out of the barn with PLEX. Why scream to close the barn doors now?

True, the precise value of PLEX in ISK floats on the ISK market. Nevertheless, once there is PLEX, real world money buys in-game items, "unearned" in-game advantage. (Not going to argue merits of PLEX-scheme here or the delusion of a "sandbox" economy utterly separate from "real world" economics.)

Similarly, so long as goods sold for AURUM, regardless whether vanity or consequential, can be bought and sold, at some point, on the ISK market AND so long as ISK can buy PLEX which can buy AURUM, little has changed except to make clear to all the change that already took place with PLEX.

Despite what we might call CCP's "currency manipulation" scheme to put upward pressure on the ISK price of PLEX, the value of even NeX items to the player community will still be reflected in and ultimately settled by the in-game price of any such objects on the ISK market. The value of PLEX, used to buy AURUM, still floats on the ISK market. ISK can be exchanged, albeit indirectly, for AURUM. Thus, the EVE "sandbox" economy still arbitrates the values of the EVE virtual world.

Bear in mind that it is not even clear that CCP can produce NeX vanity items of sufficient attraction to sell them or continue to sell them to the EVE community at prices CCP determines. If people tire of the novelty of NeX items, they will sell them for what they can get. ISK market prices will fall, and CCP will sell fewer of the same for AURUM, unless they respond by lowering AURUM prices.

Nothing seriously untoward has happened here. If people want to set their alarms for something, set them for NeX items for sale for AURUM (or dollars or yen) "bound" to avatar or account, and so not available on the ISK market. That would be an unprecedented breach of the EVE "sandbox."

Despite so many protestations pretending to outrage of high principle, a great deal of screaming here really just boils down to AURUM sticker shock.

CCP likely erred by introducing the novel concept of vanity items at such extremely vain prices. More sensible would have been to rollout modestly price items now and extravagantly priced luxury items only after opening the inner Captain's Quarters doors to public areas. There's only so much a mirror can do to stroke vanity; the full flowering of the Deadly Sin requires reflection in the eyes of others.

Pardus Aeon
Gallente
Galnet Genesis
Posted - 2011.06.29 03:21:00 - [1239]
 

I have shared my thoughts on the matters at hand through my Podcast. If you are interested you can listen in in several ways:

Site: http://www.ggenesis.org

Direct Links:
http://www.ggenesis.org/podcast/message.mp3
http://www.ggenesis.org/podcast/thefollowup.mp3

RSS Feed: feed://www.ggenesis.org/podcast/feed.xml

iTunes: Search for New Eden Genesis

I would suggest listening to part 1 before part 2. These are my own opinions of course. I'm always happy to discuss them or to receive any feedback, though if you'd like to reach me it's best to mail me directly.

Regards

Xandralkus
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.29 08:07:00 - [1240]
 

If EVE is going towards play-to-win, I'm going to troll them, just as I troll pirates out in lowsec. Let's see how far the $1000 day-old n00bz with purchased SP and NEx-fit Federate Megathrons can get, once I jam their targeting dead with my ECM. I may not be able to kill them, but I sure can infuriate them.

If pay-to-win ever does happen in eve, I'm joining a hardcore, lowsec, PVP-blobbing corporation. I will fly ECM, I will jam them, I will warp off, and I will lead them into traps for my allies.

Just imagine the QQ when a noob loses a $5500 Jove Battleship...

Angeliq
Minmatar
Soimii Patriei
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.29 08:10:00 - [1241]
 

https://viewer.zoho.com/docs/t5JQf


^^ READ! ^^



After you read this, do you honestly believe that "The One Who's Name Shall Not Be Spoken" (the major shareholder of CCP) cares about the gaming experience? Do you honestly believe that he's concerned about ruining the game? About ruining the in-game market, economics and balance? Do you honestly believe that he gives a damn about all the ppl raging here on forums? Do you think that he cares about EVE Online? Do you think he cares about the income EVE Online makes from players? Do you think he cares about how much will an EVE Online player spend on NEX Store?

Here's my take on this! CCP has no authority, no power over these late decisions. CCP is just following orders, Hilmar, CCP Zulu, CCP Pann, CCP Fallout, CCP whatever, they can't do anything about this, that's why most of them are as upset about those changes as we are, maybe even more, considering the fact that their (most loved) project is going to be screwed up and maybe even shut down eventually. As for CSM... LOL they weren't even consulted in all those late decisions. It's ALL JUST AN ACT, A CHARADE. This is why some of CCP's employees leaked documents and this is why everybody is afraid to speak. They, just like us, are only puppets.

For obvious reasons I will not elaborate more on this story, but for EVE's sake, wake up ppl, OPEN YOUR EYES!

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.06.29 08:10:00 - [1242]
 

Originally by: Fuamnach
The horse was out of the barn with PLEX.


And LP stores. And meta levels on items.

Quote:
True, the precise value of PLEX in ISK floats on the ISK market. Nevertheless, once there is PLEX, real world money buys in-game items, "unearned" in-game advantage.


What PLEX-for-ISK really buys is someone else's ISK-grinding on your behalf. It is a give-and-take transaction.

Quote:
Bear in mind that it is not even clear that CCP can produce NeX vanity items of sufficient attraction to sell them or continue to sell them to the EVE community at prices CCP determines.


Zara fashion does real-world fashion items from napkin to actual dress in bricks-and-mortar store in two weeks. They also have a high turnover model which drives people to buy more, since the customers do not have time to sit back and contemplate this week's fashion. It's buy or die in the well-dressed stakes.

Quote:
If people tire of the novelty of NeX items, they will sell them for what they can get. ISK market prices will fall, and CCP will sell fewer of the same for AURUM, unless they respond by lowering AURUM prices.


CCP can also introduce new items, and keep bringing old ones back for limited periods to see if anyone's biting again.

Quote:
Despite so many protestations pretending to outrage of high principle, a great deal of screaming here really just boils down to AURUM sticker shock.


A great deal of the screaming was due to the attempt to introduce a gold-scorpion-from-ether, which is a boneheaded move that I hope won't be repeated.

Quote:
CCP likely erred by introducing the novel concept of vanity items at such extremely vain prices. More sensible would have been to rollout modestly price items now and extravagantly priced luxury items only after opening the inner Captain's Quarters doors to public areas.


I feel that CCP would have been better off introducing the extreme priced items at the same time as mid-range and "barely affordable" items. Remember it's a Noble Exchange, a shop for the ultra rich. CCP is trying to sell a small number of items at high prices to maintain an exclusive market. Adding too many affordable things will dilute the brand.

As it stands, the amount of jealousy focussed against people who are wearing monocles is awesome in terms of modelling the socio-economic class differences in the real world.

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.29 08:51:00 - [1243]
 

Originally by: CCP Xhagen
This will be a challenging summit as I want to to be productive, not about butting heads and shouting and screaming. I aim at directing the discussions towards a logical path where a conclusion will be reached. What that conclusion will be and whether it will be to everyone's liking is not something I want to speculate on.


True. All kidding aside, this is serious, and everyone will be taking it very seriously. Nobody is going there to rage at CCP, simply to work the problem and report back.

Despite all the rage, we all want to help CCP succeed. If we didn't care, we'd just unsub and go away quietly. The rage is because people care deeply about the game and about the people of CCP, and can't bear to see everything go to hell.

zoolkhan
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2011.06.29 09:09:00 - [1244]
 

Edited by: zoolkhan on 29/06/2011 09:10:27
totally astray from the mainstream rage...a quote i found, that portraits
the carelessness of the "product management" whomever that actually is nowadays:
(full text here: much more interesting stuff, and constructive read - ccp should go there and chk)


"Someone who will only ever sit on his CQ couch and watch the random programming go by on his TV might also only ever undock to take part in ze blob. He has turned every last dial down when it comes to graphics options to get the most FPS possible out of those fights, but when he's doing nothing in the calm and quiet station environment, those same options make everything look like refried piles of cat hair. If it weren't so ugly, this player might enjoy his CQ and want to see more once Incarna comes out, but having to reset all those settings every time he undocks is just too much work."

Coco Caine
Posted - 2011.06.29 09:41:00 - [1245]
 

OMG, just followed the links about the investor structure of CCP.

No wonder.

Assuming those 'investors' are 'Good' private equity players, they'll try to get one, two years of extreme profitabilty to sell the corporation for a good price. If they are 'Bad' financial players, they'll sell your credit card data to chinese triads, wash money in the NEX shop and offer querulous CCP employees 'free' dental care and 'serious' career opportunities in the fishing industry. Anyway they will prolly not be interested in long-term commitment to anything but raw cash and are part of the illness that our society suffers today.

Good luck, time to go thrash some bankers :).

Angeliq
Minmatar
Soimii Patriei
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.29 10:40:00 - [1246]
 

Originally by: Coco Caine
OMG, just followed the links about the investor structure of CCP.

No wonder.

Assuming those 'investors' are 'Good' private equity players, they'll try to get one, two years of extreme profitabilty to sell the corporation for a good price. If they are 'Bad' financial players, they'll sell your credit card data to chinese triads, wash money in the NEX shop and offer querulous CCP employees 'free' dental care and 'serious' career opportunities in the fishing industry. Anyway they will prolly not be interested in long-term commitment to anything but raw cash and are part of the illness that our society suffers today.

Good luck, time to go thrash some bankers :).



Scarry huh? :)

Lunce
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.29 10:43:00 - [1247]
 

Originally by: Fuamnach
Edited by: Fuamnach on 29/06/2011 02:37:10
Edited by: Fuamnach on 29/06/2011 02:36:28
The horse was out of the barn with PLEX. Why scream to close the barn doors now?

True, the precise value of PLEX in ISK floats on the ISK market. Nevertheless, once there is PLEX, real world money buys in-game items, "unearned" in-game advantage. (Not going to argue merits of PLEX-scheme here or the delusion of a "sandbox" economy utterly separate from "real world" economics.)

Similarly, so long as goods sold for AURUM, regardless whether vanity or consequential, can be bought and sold, at some point, on the ISK market AND so long as ISK can buy PLEX which can buy AURUM, little has changed except to make clear to all the change that already took place with PLEX.

Despite what we might call CCP's "currency manipulation" scheme to put upward pressure on the ISK price of PLEX, the value of even NeX items to the player community will still be reflected in and ultimately settled by the in-game price of any such objects on the ISK market. The value of PLEX, used to buy AURUM, still floats on the ISK market. ISK can be exchanged, albeit indirectly, for AURUM. Thus, the EVE "sandbox" economy still arbitrates the values of the EVE virtual world.

Bear in mind that it is not even clear that CCP can produce NeX vanity items of sufficient attraction to sell them or continue to sell them to the EVE community at prices CCP determines. If people tire of the novelty of NeX items, they will sell them for what they can get. ISK market prices will fall, and CCP will sell fewer of the same for AURUM, unless they respond by lowering AURUM prices.

Nothing seriously untoward has happened here. If people want to set their alarms for something, set them for NeX items for sale for AURUM (or dollars or yen) "bound" to avatar or account, and so not available on the ISK market. That would be an unprecedented breach of the EVE "sandbox."

Despite so many protestations pretending to outrage of high principle, a great deal of screaming here really just boils down to AURUM sticker shock.

CCP likely erred by introducing the novel concept of vanity items at such extremely vain prices. More sensible would have been to rollout modestly price items now and extravagantly priced luxury items only after opening the inner Captain's Quarters doors to public areas. There's only so much a mirror can do to stroke vanity; the full flowering of the Deadly Sin requires reflection in the eyes of others.



Thanks Fuamnach for providing this. You are spot on.

I see nothing detrimental to the game in adding 'Micro Transactions'.... As long as it remains exclusively vanity items and ship skins.

The AsteroidDrainer
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.06.29 11:05:00 - [1248]
 



Thanks Fuamnach for providing this. You are spot on.

I see nothing detrimental to the game in adding 'Micro Transactions'.... As long as it remains exclusively vanity items and ship skins.


ok i personly would love too see GOLD AMMO but it is no better than say faction equiv but it can b used more 4 showin off lol brought 4 AUR

Sapegu
Gallente
the muppets
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2011.06.29 11:27:00 - [1249]
 

The reality of EVE is this,
If CCP does not focus in GamePlay, correcting Fleet lag issues, PI lack of emotion, and Continuous miss leadance in Game objectives (latest revolution in Sanctums was a shot on the foot) this game will end soon.
-1 to -0.8 Systems are really crouded so people can make money for plexes.
If Isk isnt made, plexes wont be bought...
An average guy with 8 accounts will not pay for them in real money... unless he is a rich person in RL.
New ships are welcome,new Systems also...
DREAD's should gain a place in POS bashing.
Fighters should not be able to Lock POS or Stations, to make Dreads the best Ship for Damadge... as it should be.
Realy, who needs clothes in EVE... i would walk around NAKED if i had to buy clothes with Isk or Plexes...
Only guys with toons of ISk will buy those stuf..
Remember this, If EVE FALLS, CCP will go down.
EVE suports CCP... do not igore that.

Consortium Agent
Posted - 2011.06.29 12:31:00 - [1250]
 

From CCP Games website -> About Us:

Quote:

CCP's mission is to attract and retain customers by providing top quality online entertainment. CCP does this by establishing and nurturing a trust relationship with customers both in terms of quality of content as well as quality of service.

CCP encourages respect, dialog, interaction and cooperation on a deeper level between its employees and customers than is common in online games. By this and through this CCP provides a unique way for improving the quality of its products and creates an inspiring and challenging environment for talent to thrive.

We care more. We work harder.




Where is *this* CCP?

Dalton Vanadis
Posted - 2011.06.29 13:06:00 - [1251]
 

Edited by: Dalton Vanadis on 29/06/2011 13:12:28
Originally by: Fuamnach
Edited by: Fuamnach on 29/06/2011 02:37:10
Edited by: Fuamnach on 29/06/2011 02:36:28
The horse was out of the barn with PLEX. Why scream to close the barn doors now?

True, the precise value of PLEX in ISK floats on the ISK market. Nevertheless, once there is PLEX, real world money buys in-game items, "unearned" in-game advantage. (Not going to argue merits of PLEX-scheme here or the delusion of a "sandbox" economy utterly separate from "real world" economics.)

Similarly, so long as goods sold for AURUM, regardless whether vanity or consequential, can be bought and sold, at some point, on the ISK market AND so long as ISK can buy PLEX which can buy AURUM, little has changed except to make clear to all the change that already took place with PLEX.

Despite what we might call CCP's "currency manipulation" scheme to put upward pressure on the ISK price of PLEX, the value of even NeX items to the player community will still be reflected in and ultimately settled by the in-game price of any such objects on the ISK market. The value of PLEX, used to buy AURUM, still floats on the ISK market. ISK can be exchanged, albeit indirectly, for AURUM. Thus, the EVE "sandbox" economy still arbitrates the values of the EVE virtual world.

Bear in mind that it is not even clear that CCP can produce NeX vanity items of sufficient attraction to sell them or continue to sell them to the EVE community at prices CCP determines. If people tire of the novelty of NeX items, they will sell them for what they can get. ISK market prices will fall, and CCP will sell fewer of the same for AURUM, unless they respond by lowering AURUM prices.

Nothing seriously untoward has happened here. If people want to set their alarms for something, set them for NeX items for sale for AURUM (or dollars or yen) "bound" to avatar or account, and so not available on the ISK market. That would be an unprecedented breach of the EVE "sandbox."

Despite so many protestations pretending to outrage of high principle, a great deal of screaming here really just boils down to AURUM sticker shock.

CCP likely erred by introducing the novel concept of vanity items at such extremely vain prices. More sensible would have been to rollout modestly price items now and extravagantly priced luxury items only after opening the inner Captain's Quarters doors to public areas. There's only so much a mirror can do to stroke vanity; the full flowering of the Deadly Sin requires reflection in the eyes of others.



The issue is that the items on the PLEX/ISK market require some player, somewhere to have created them or extracted the base materials (in 98% of the items, ignoring here skillbooks). Circumventing the player market and dropping it into the Aurum market for this instance of P2W takes out the player driven economy part for i-win lasers. It means players have little say in the pricing, markets, or any other aspect of the item's sale, which, if you didn't know, is a MASSIVE part of the game. Selling those items directly for aurum takes a big chunk out of what CCP has been going towards for years, an entirely player driven economy. Sure, players can game the economy with PLEX, but players determine the value of PLEX for in game items, players do NOT determine the value of PLEX for AUR or the items bought and sold through the NeX. That is a root issue with the P2W scheme here, not that RL cash can be used to influence the game (it can) but that players have a way to influence the impact of RL cash in the game now, they do not have a way to influence the cashflow in the NeX. It breaks the chain of player work to get the items by doing this instance of P2W.

Sticker shock is certainly prevalent, but it is not the core issue, the distinction of NeX vs. ISK market is very important when it comes to item sale.

Xander Hunt
Minmatar
Dead Rats Tell No Tales
Posted - 2011.06.29 13:16:00 - [1252]
 

Originally by: Souxie Alduin
"However I let my frustration take charge of me, fueled by emotions that had built up due to a breach of trust we at CCP have been experiencing over the past few days."

Umm.. could someone from CCP elaborate on this? This is definitely the part of this blog that has me the most worried. Did someone at the top sell you out? Are your venture capitalist investors forcing MT down your throat? Are you joining Sony and is it really their PR people talking through your mouths right now?


My instinct says this is exactly what is going on. With the new cost being passed on to developers for a mere $100 PER YEAR to get access to a database to continue developing software to help PROMOTE their own software, not only does it sound like a serious money grab, but lawyers are involved too who want a cut of their coin.

Protect their IP? EVERYONE knows what the game is about. NO ONE can take the data and apply it to something that isn't EVE. Any attempt to try and convince the data is theirs and not CCPs, based on the content alone, would be grounds for a lawsuit. One can't take the data from CCP and apply it to WoW, Dust, STO, or any other game.

With this "protection of IP" can also possibly lead to people losing their YouTube accounts because people are putting videos up of their battles, corp training videos, etc.

This game should be open wide data wise for better "IMMERSION". Graphics are one thing, but using utilities outside the game to help plan makes me personally feel a hell of a lot more invested than just flying the ship around.

Xander Hunt
Minmatar
Dead Rats Tell No Tales
Posted - 2011.06.29 13:25:00 - [1253]
 

Originally by: Gedid Tava
As someone who knows the horizon broadening power of a devil's advocate discussion, I have little doubt that the leaked doc is not a reflection of CCP's actual practices.

However...

My wife did bring up a fairly amusing point. This game is full of ruthless, metagaming, scheming, cruel, backstabbing, greedy bastards who will steal every last dime from their "friends" the very second the payout is large enough. Now that CCP is being accused of milking cash, even if it is for vanity only items, people flip out about what a heart wrenching betrayal it is.

If nothing else, they're learning from their player base. The wife doesn't play but she summed it up perfectly. "Welcome to EVE."


The difference here is we're talking about real world money versus in game credits. We already pay an astronomical amount for the multiple accounts we own, we developers are now having to more than pay half a years worth of fees each year ON TOP OF our regular month to month fees to only BETTER the game we're PAYING for (That sentence sounds circular - Its intentional), the THOUGHT of introducing game play altering items for a months game time is absurd, and whats worse, all of this CAME OUT OF THE BLUE without CSM, without a player base notification, nothing.

Its one thing for me to enter the wrong price for a contract and get ****d because I couldn't cancel it fast enough, or find out I bought a Carbon instead of a Charon, or giving away my ISK for the promise of getting double to quadrouple the amount back. Its an entirely different thing when a company starts taking my hard earned cash and starts taking the sand out of the sandbox and starts telling me "This is the only way you can play".

Next thing you know they're going to start charging real world fees to allow you to park your space ships in high-sec over down-time. :P

Dalton Vanadis
Posted - 2011.06.29 13:37:00 - [1254]
 

Add in to my comment earlier to Fuanmarch:

Also, CCP presented compelling reasons at fanfest for why most vanity items will not be player built/designed (time to *****), I can understand why they went with the NeX. I think that it is indicative of their investor relations, their economy team, and their current CFO (who doesn't have any history in the game industry, having left Citi right before it's headlong crash into a mountain of debt, but details on bad investment decisions for another time). I think the old CCP would have just seeded the items on the market ala POS towers of old. But then again, that would have allowed for a way too obvious comparison between the items and something like a kilometer long hunk of metal with advanced weapons systems on it. As it stands, even with their level of separation to both have a way to quantify the demand and return on the development for these items with the NeX, players can still easily compare prices. Which leads to the sticker shock, and the all out dumbfounded feeling players have over that pricing structure.

For an example, even the most expensive, Japanese boutique designer jeans are about 6 orders of magnitude cheaper than an Arleigh Burke class destroyer (1,000 vs 2,000,000,000) (jeans to destroyer comparison for you if we're making RL comparisons to a game). So, logic of that particular analogy = crap. It also makes me wonder what financial "guru" decided to try and push that one through despite what I'm sure were several dev protests against it (seriously, anyone who knows that this was the game where the players built a search tool for their own forums, or their own FTP service, or have more commentary on their own game- politics than there are major news channels in the US wouldn't have tried that half-assed attempt to pull the wool over our eyes).

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2011.06.29 14:04:00 - [1255]
 

Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 29/06/2011 14:05:55
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 29/06/2011 14:05:19
Originally by: Xander Hunt

With this "protection of IP" can also possibly lead to people losing their YouTube accounts because people are putting videos up of their battles, corp training videos, etc.



Yeah, even Blizzard are not *that* greedy and I dare say Blizzard's IP is an order or two of magnitude bigger and better than CCP's.

I created training videos buying the relevant software and spending weeks and now I am supposed to pay again and again, because I put 2 Google ads on my purchased hosting?

To pay people who can't even figure out how EvE's full of (fake) women that could use necklaces, ear pieces, shawls, headpieces. No, they had to put in some crap looking uniforms.

The worst part? They are DECALS. I play a 2003 MMO where wear looks more realistic, it has visible plies, bumps, relief.

In EvE? You burn your video card, in a room, alone and unseen, in the dark when lucky, under a shoddy lighting when less lucky. And usually you look totally different (in the worse ofc!) than in the character creation room.

Kuroki Meisa Kennedy
Posted - 2011.06.29 14:11:00 - [1256]
 

I like to wish the CSM and CCP goodluck..
Atleast the honest ones Rolling Eyes

And thanks Zoolkhan for that most intresting read.

Senai Navara
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2011.06.29 14:41:00 - [1257]
 

Edited by: Senai Navara on 29/06/2011 15:03:56
I'm not that much of a forum writer, this may be my first post (since years).

I'm playing the game very casually since 2003 and I like(d) the vision of CCP where EVE should go to (or lets say the glimpses of that vision, and the energy of the EVE Team until maybe one year ago, where something changed).

I like a game which is not mainstream or easy accessible, which is very complex and where you could play for years and even then discover something new.

For some time now, my perception is, that CCP has left this vision, for something different, more mainstream, more profit making, in general more simple (or getting more simple with time - starting for example with the agent system rework).

Maybe time and experience changed the leading heads of CCP, maybe it is really the fact, that someone else is dictating the path of EVE, but the fact is, that I have lost faith that CCP is following the same vision as from the start and until few years ago, and until this changes, I will not longer support or play EVE-Online, so hard this may be (for me).

As my subscriptions runs out in November, there is some time to see if something changes, but my subscription is canceled.

I wish you all luck and health,

Yours
Senai Navara

Luckytania
Gallente
Bullets of Justice
Posted - 2011.06.29 15:51:00 - [1258]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Despite all the rage, we all want to help CCP succeed. If we didn't care, we'd just unsub and go away quietly. The rage is because people care deeply about the game and about the people of CCP, and can't bear to see everything go to hell.

"care deeply about the game"
Yes.

"care deeply ... about the people of CCP"
Not so much. In fact, at this point not at all. And, if you are going into the meetings with this attitude you're already compromised. (IMO. With all respect to you personally.) CCP is a business and will make decisions to make money. That is proper. What is proper on my side is whether they continue to offer a product I wish to pay for.
'Original' Eve, yes.
Eve + PLEX, well, OK.
Eve + 'gold ammo' / 'bribery for Standings' / "We want to offer convenience for a price.", no.

However, I do totally agree with you that those CCP-CSM discussions are no place for 'raging' / tantrum throwing. Calm reasoned discourse to relay the solidly felt and expressed feelings of the community regarding game affecting MT is what's needed. And then to honestly relay back to the community the path CCP has decided to take. Whatever that path might be. That will be fair and then we can decide whether that path is one we wish to pay for. Or not.

I don't pay a subscription to only play today's game. I pay to play a long game with persistence and an adequate level of consistency.

Instant gratification is not Eve Online. (Well, not the Eve I started with and not one I will pay the subscription price for.)

Luckytania
Gallente
Bullets of Justice
Posted - 2011.06.29 16:47:00 - [1259]
 

Originally by: Senai Navara
Edited by: Senai Navara on 29/06/2011 15:03:56
I'm not that much of a forum writer, this may be my first post (since years).

I'm playing the game very casually since 2003 and I like(d) the vision of CCP where EVE should go to (or lets say the glimpses of that vision, and the energy of the EVE Team until maybe one year ago, where something changed).

I like a game which is not mainstream or easy accessible, which is very complex and where you could play for years and even then discover something new.

For some time now, my perception is, that CCP has left this vision, for something different, more mainstream, more profit making, in general more simple (or getting more simple with time - starting for example with the agent system rework).

Maybe time and experience changed the leading heads of CCP, maybe it is really the fact, that someone else is dictating the path of EVE, but the fact is, that I have lost faith that CCP is following the same vision as from the start and until few years ago, and until this changes, I will not longer support or play EVE-Online, so hard this may be (for me).

As my subscriptions runs out in November, there is some time to see if something changes, but my subscription is canceled.

I wish you all luck and health,

Yours
Senai Navara


Yes.

I was drawn to, and stayed with, Eve Online because it was hard.
And if you stuck with it, you got rewarded for your effort.

DarkTemplarCrimsonWolf
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.29 20:22:00 - [1260]
 

All I can really say about the situation at the current time is:
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Depends on the CSM summit if the boat rides the wave or gets capsized.


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