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Turkatron
United Mining And Distribution
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:33:00 - [721]
 

CCP, the bridge has already been burned.

Originally by: CCP Zulu
I see it's clear we need to strengthen the deep mutual trust and respect that's been so unique and descriptive of our relationship.

Strengthen? I don't think so. There is no trust at this point at all. And there won't be again till you take tangible actions. Talk is cheap.

Originally by: CCP Zulu
Therefore we have asked the CSM to join us in Iceland for an extraordinary meeting June 30th and July 1st to discuss the events of past week, to help us define and address the real underlying concerns, and to assist us in defining and iterating on our virtual goods strategy.

By all accounts CSM have already done this and you chose to disrespect them by releasing the first "dev blog" and not addressing our concerns. If I were on CSM I'd send a big ****you and not bother going to the meeting. It's clear you see CSM as a way to fool us into thinking you give a **** when you really don't.

Originally by: CCP Zulu
The result of this meeting should be mutual agreement of how virtual goods and services will evolve in EVE.

At this point how can anyone trust CCP if they plan to "evolve" "virtual goods and services". Wait services also? Anyway, this is a subscription game, if it continues to extend past that there will be no trust because you, CCP, have already set the ball in motion.

Originally by: CCP Zulu
However, just to prove the point of the Fearless newsletter and give you a further understanding of what it is then there are no and never have been plans to sell "gold ammo" for Aurum. In Fearless people are arguing a point, which doesn't even have to be their view, they are debating an issue. This is another example of how information out of context is no information at all.

Stop with this bull****. No one is buying it. The newsletter has very clear intent. Yes there is a section where employees debate the topic, however, the rest of the newsletter has a tone that says... this is not a debate, we are doing this, get used to it. In addition, all the rebuttals to outrage over this have had the same exact tone and very similar wording as the newsletter. You can't rationalize to the players in the same way as the newsletter rationalizes to the CCP employees why MT is a good thing if you expect us to believe that was nothing but a debate.

Let me quote your FEARLESS leader Hilmar.
Originally by: Hilmar
I can tell you that this is one of the moments where we look at what our players do and less of what they say


I can tell you that this is one of the moments where we look at what CCP does and less of what they say.

Lastly, I think this sums things up nicely.
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Kelvandar
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:34:00 - [722]
 

"due to a breach of trust we at CCP have been experiencing over the past few days..." What happened there? Is this somehow related to the SOE rumors that were floating around earlier today? Did Hilmar try to sell you out?

No personal offense intended, Zulu. You've no doubt been told what to write by a number of people at CCP. But this blog sounds more like it was written for the benefit of PR with the industry in general and/or your venture capitalists. Particularly with the token "lets fly the CSM out here" part.

As far as the "Fearless" comment goes, if something is definitely not on the table, then it is definitely not up for debate in a quasi-public forum like a corporate newsletter.

Regardless of the outcome of your meetings, it is still up to us, the players, that decide if we continue with our subscriptions or not. Many of us are more interested in what you do now than how you spin the PR. And no corporate statements no matter how skillfully worded will ever outweigh what appears in the cash shop down the road.

ScreenWipe
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:35:00 - [723]
 

I still want to purchase SP with Aurum's - i will raise my concerns with the csm's!

mobius nm
Minmatar
Empyrean Engineering
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:35:00 - [724]
 

Ah, another timekill. As expected CCP, you deliver to our lowest expectations.

What you explicitly DON'T say speaks volumes about what you intend to force upon us.

Those that have any political savvy at all will not be redirected or placated.

I honestly didn't think it was possible for your impressions of your player community to be so divorced from reality. Clearly, there is a logical disconnect between making a challenging, hard, cerebral game and subsequently assuming it will be populated at the most core levels by gullible, impressionable, spendfree dolts.

The game you built is singularly uninviting to the sort of player population you require to support a pay to win scheme. Get over yourselves, realize this fact, apologize, and lets move the **** on.

I want the dev team and mentality from 2006 back please and thanks.

Orion GUardian
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:36:00 - [725]
 

I for one thank you for this devblog. It stands in contrast to what I saw as ignorance and arrogance in the first one.

Of course I must say I am not "appeased" in the real sense of the word. The "Fearless" newsletter was shocking, but it was soon clear that it was probably a discussion "exercise" inside CCP.

But another thing "out of context" was the leaked letter of Hilmar, which fueled the flames anew of course and was more a reason to be irritated for me. I hope your meeting with the CSM will shed a light on the matters. Even if I am of the opinion that the CSM is a toothless lion it will be and is, for a matter of fact, far more productive to discuss serious matters in a limited group of people instead of a whole community

Manos Heimenbarger
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:36:00 - [726]
 

I am very bothered by the use of a certain word in this devblog that a lot of people don't seem to be picking up on. He said no "plans". No plans for "gold ammo". Wasn't it a year ago they were saying no plans for microtrading at all? Saying there are no plans is not putting this in uncertain terms, and we NEED uncertain terms regarding this.

CSM, when you guys go up there, PLEASE get them to be completely clear on this.

Baillif
AQUILA INC
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:36:00 - [727]
 

The common lie you'll see spouted from CCP is that they can take the increased MT revenues and make additional features for all players.

The reality is that they will use increased MT revenues to make additional pay to play features because that's where the money is. In the same sense that there is more research in pharmaceuticals to make treatments than to find cures. The treatment is where the money is.

Once they leave the subscription model for the MT model there is no going back. People are worried about the slippery slope because it is a very real and legitimate threat.


The refusal of CCP to give us a straight answer on non vanity MT items is because they have already made up their minds, and they know we won't like their answer. Your player base isn't stupid CCP. We know what you are doing.

Aussie ALF
One Gear Inc
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:37:00 - [728]
 

Things that got on my nerve were the editors "opening"
Quote:
However, as a subscription based golden goose, EVE
needs to incorporate the virtual goods sales model to allow for further
revenue Ė revenue to fund our other titles, revenue for its developer: you.


Also this "Yes" thought on Are virtual goods sales in EVE a good thing:
Quote:
Iíll give you an example of
something I think provides value
to our customer, which Iíd like to
sell. Right now, you can store 50
personal fittings on our servers.
Thatís more than enough for the
average EVE player, but for a
subset of our users, itís too small
a number. Why not be able to add
more storage space for a small
amount of money? Youíd even be
able to upgrade it multiple times
if you needed and permanently
add this benefit to your character,
making it even more valuable.


So CCP broke the fittings by making them server based so we were forced to restrictive 50 fittings, now the idea is maybe we should let them have more, but pay for it.

Like hell I already pay you enough every month.

EvE has been boring the **** out of me recently, Walking in Stations is not going to make me stay, in fact, the opposite. I chose EvE over WoW because WoW with the walking about with their characters just looked stupid. I like SciFi, so EvE was a better fit.

I like most when Incarna came out, considered purchasing some AURUM just for ****s and giggles, but when I saw the prices I almost quit on the spot.

This golden goose is getting sat on by a 400pound sumo and I can tell you now, add any more weight to it and the goose will die.

Chrysanthemum Korik
Monocles Of Death
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:37:00 - [729]
 

Quote:
"just to prove the point of the Fearless newsletter and give you a further understanding of what it is then there are no and never have been plans to sell "gold ammo" for Aurum"


That doesn't prove anything. You've left out the key and most important point: What about in the future? What about tomorrow's plans? And why do you have to be so specific? Ok, no "gold ammo" for arum. What about SP and ships? For ISK or real currency?

The fact that now you've twice deliberately avoided addressing the singular most important issue, while acting as if you have, really doesn't reassure anyone concerned about this.

Seline Okaski
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:39:00 - [730]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: Seline Okaski
As to the CSM visit, I am not sure how to take this. Asking our representatives, the very same ones that you have disregarded, ignored and failed to inform/consult in the past to break away from real life commitments with under a weeks notice seems to be a last ditch effort to divert our attention.

When the batphone rings, you pick it up.

That said, if this meeting turns out to be a farce, we will let you know in no uncertain terms. If I am forced to endure those $^&#& IcelandAir seats for no good reason, there will be hell to pay.

With regard to speed of reporting, I will try and get reports out every day detailing general progress, and we will try and get a full report out ASAP. We know this is time-sensitive.

Originally by: Saving Face
In that case, he lied again because we know there have been plans for non-vanity purchases.

Numerous CCP folks at different levels have told me that Fearless is deliberately provocative, and is not official company policy. Of course, I have not seen any other issues, so I can't say for sure. Perhaps someone should leak some copies to me... Twisted Evil


And that is the one thing I cannot quite let go of ... yet. (I am working on it Razz) It may have been a "deliberately provocative" document, but what the one section outright states: "CCP is in the process of adopting a virtual sales model for its game products. While this model has always been intended for World of Darkness and DUST 514, you may be wondering how this will work in EVE Online. Specifically, how will this new strategy unfold in Incarna?" This is difficult to take it as simply an opinion piece.

I will try to evaluate my thoughts on this and see what comes from the CMS meetings. I wish I could say that I will be able to believe in CCP again, but that will be a hard road to walk down.

Good luck in Iceland and thanks for the representation, Trebor and fellow CSM members. A lot of people are putting their hopes (and continued Eve gaming) on you.


Esceem
Gallente
Suns of New Eden
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:39:00 - [731]
 

Originally by: Ghoest
Ill watch what you do not what you say.


This.

Takseen
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:39:00 - [732]
 

I think its funny that they use Gordon Gekko and his slogan in that newsletter. The greedy Gordon gets betrayed by his underling and goes to jail for insider trading. While the more "honest" stockbrokers who stick to the rules get along just fine.

Kynder Furlow
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:40:00 - [733]
 

Well, I think we all need to cool down for a few days.. Let the CSM meet CCP and see what comes out of the discussion.

For all your flapping you guys are doing, it's not helping a great deal and is only causing disruption.

Calm.

Nishachara
True Enlightenment
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:40:00 - [734]
 

Btw...why is the blog called "The realities of eve"...?

What are the realities of eve?

  • CCP has no money so they MUST introduce MT ?

  • First there will be vanity items but if they dont do the trick non-vanity ones will be introduced as well ?

  • CCP doesnt communicate with their customers as they should ?

  • Aurum store is sickeningly expensive ?

  • Incarna captains quarters have sub par performance on most configurations ?

  • There is no other way than getting in your CQ when you dock, you could have the CQ (no matter how lousy performance it has) or there is the door...period ?

  • No matter how the players protest and leave for all that stuff there is simply no other way ?


  • If not that ones...which are "the realities of eve" than ?

    Larik Olen
    Posted - 2011.06.26 21:40:00 - [735]
     

    Edited by: Larik Olen on 26/06/2011 21:41:45
    Originally by: Ghoest
    Ill watch what you do not what you say.


    This. ^^

    Also way to avoid the question again. 'Gold Ammo' pacifies the crowd while still avoiding the larger questions of microtransactions for in game advantage.

    Until this is explicitly answered, and PROPERLY, people will continue to unsub.

    Oh, and this time - listen to the CSM. Really listen. If you don't, you're just jerking them, and us around.

    Tarinara
    Posted - 2011.06.26 21:41:00 - [736]
     

    Nice of CCPZulu to step up into the fire and make a statement. Kudos. I don't put a lot of faith in any statements out of CCP right now, but that's just me.

    And as for alluding to no 'Golden Ammo': ya know... sadly we can all see the handwriting on the wall of the direction CCP is going ( or at least I can ). And they've already sold at least 60 'sparkle monocles' last I heard, so the dam is already leaking, CCP has it's prove of concept and we all should start learning to swim in the new Pay 2 Win New Eden.

    SamGromoff
    Amarr
    Viziam
    Posted - 2011.06.26 21:42:00 - [737]
     

    Edited by: SamGromoff on 26/06/2011 21:43:38
    Edited by: SamGromoff on 26/06/2011 21:42:32
    Quote:

    However, just to prove the point of the Fearless newsletter and give you a further understanding of what it is then there are no and never have been plans to sell "gold ammo" for Aurum.

    In Fearless people are arguing a point, which doesn't even have to be their view, they are debating an issue. This is another example of how information out of context is no information at all.



    Quote:
    [5:29:36 PM] Two Step: that isn't gonna help
    [5:29:43 PM] Two Step: and can you please answer my question?

    [5:29:51 PM] Two Step: 1) Is CCP planning on selling non-vanity MT
    [5:30:53 PM] CCP Zulu: CCP plans on evolving its offering of virtual goods based on player demand




    Very careful non-denial spotted


    Lederstrumpf
    Posted - 2011.06.26 21:42:00 - [738]
     

    Originally by: Chribba
    I hope that there will be good results from those meetings.


    The CSM should get a chance to talk to the investors/owners, too.

    St'oto
    Elite Predators
    Posted - 2011.06.26 21:43:00 - [739]
     

    Originally by: Dibble Dabble
    Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
    We're reading you, be sure we're going to carry your words to CCP.

    My stance on the issue in more words is here. Be SURE to contact your CSM members and let them know, we WILL read your mail.


    You can read my post.

    Some want MT in all its glory. Your all scared your RMT operations and bot alliances will suffer with MT.

    CSM are just another vanity item, voted for by lemmings.


    Yea you want it in all it's glory so you can pay to get a head. That's the only reason.

    Idle Bow
    Gallente
    Genesis Claymores
    Posted - 2011.06.26 21:44:00 - [740]
     

    Originally by: RougeOperator
    We should email SONY online entertainment and ask them what they think about their current partner. And how they are now associated with a Second NGE type company.

    Notice how they avoided the question of NON VANITY items by talking about GOLD AMMO.


    Knowing SONY I wouldn't count on that at all. SONY is dictating conditions for those who want to publish games for their console, and those conditions are quite draconian (deadlines are part of those conditions, like with every publisher with lots $$$, but screwing unique games. Better screw but not miss deadline, business is business, boys.). In the same way they act with players. SONY = $$$, not passion, creativity, uniqueness, etc. And I have strong feeling that recent "bravery" of Hilmar was fueled during the last E3. That could be:

    a) encouragement and advice how to make "real bux" in cold minded and cynical entertainment business. If we compare gaming industry with movie/tv show industry, SONY is producer of cheap products for mass consumption. Lots of cheap crap, copied in thousands and some cases millions of copies.. "Hey Hilmar, are we doing REAL business or just playing it?" thats how it could sound from "Trumps" at SONY. But thats some sort of "good" scenario, where things can be managed more easy.

    b) If I remember correctly presentations of CCP's CTO, SONY had invested time (at least time) in DUST 514. They even invited CCP in E3 on SONY's stage. It was quite surprising, as not very typical. Usually they will force you to undress if you want to do something with them. That shows their believe and interest in DUST 514. As things became public, I believe CCP had got more constraints to deal with. Deadlines can be part of that. CCP had invested LOTS money into DUST and imagine what happens when platform provider starts to put it's conditions in current phase of project. I think one of results of this can be declaration of DUST as exclusive to PS (earlier XBOX was in the list), and declaration of exclusiveness had put CCP even in more weak position, so deadlines become damn important and title looses its independence. If you are in trouble with deadlines and do not have capacity to boost work, you need to make fund-rising. That may lead to "real business" in eve. That could also lead to sales of company shares. CCP_Fallout had twitted that deal with SOE isn't being discussed. But usually until the deal is signed, all talks are being kept secret (from employees also). Especially if that is about significant amounts of shares.

    It is possible that CCP is in damn bad situation because of SONY and no more independent de facto. And SONY on top of CCP could be the worst news for Eve..

    Stormchyld
    Minmatar
    Posted - 2011.06.26 21:44:00 - [741]
     

    Originally by: Ghoest
    Ill watch what you do not what you say.


    ...+1

    R2 D3
    The Executives
    Executive Outcomes
    Posted - 2011.06.26 21:45:00 - [742]
     

    Good blog, time to get back to businessRazz

    roq deelim
    Posted - 2011.06.26 21:45:00 - [743]
     

    Edited by: roq deelim on 26/06/2011 21:46:42
    Quote:
    Historically, CCP redaction of CSM summit minutes reports has been minor, except in some cases where effectively entire meetings had to be off the record (such as DUST/EVE strategy in the May Summit -- minutes out soon I hope, btw). For example, in the current May minutes draft, the edits are almost non-existent, mostly removal of exact numbers.


    well..thats also a point that matters..more infos about about eve/dust link is exactly such a thing that could appera out of the blue one days. it WILL influence eve, it will affect us. so it is interessting to be discusses without numerous speculations.

    second: i like exact numbers. wordings like "lots of","many", "nearly none" i.e. are usless rable-rable.

    ps for the meeting:
    1. no nda cr*p on this one.
    2. provide at least some little amount of live coverage
    3. ask tough questions
    4. STILL no minutes

    Onsa Boo
    Caldari
    State War Academy
    Posted - 2011.06.26 21:46:00 - [744]
     

    Originally by: Angeliq

    Originally by: Julian Kirov

    Here's a presentation from the creators of BF:Heroes that explains why Hilmar gives no fcks about the forums.

    http://www.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win




    This is a very interesting presentation. Everyone should... MUST watch it!

    This presentation will tell you why EVE Online WILL have a Cash Shop WITH GAME CHANGING ITEMS beyond vanity ones!! It shows that the business model works and why it will work in EVE too.



    God dam. Still not convinced CCP don't want a piece of this.

    Dex Atherton
    Minmatar
    Individual Retirement Accounts
    Posted - 2011.06.26 21:46:00 - [745]
     

    Originally by: Ghoest
    Ill watch what you do not what you say.


    I don't think this has been quoted enough yet.

    Nerodon
    Gallente
    Incapsulated Reality
    Posted - 2011.06.26 21:48:00 - [746]
     

    Let the CSM convey our concerns officially in a face-to-face meeting.
    I am glad you've decided to have a meeting with them as these changes have far-reaching consequences.

    We are all very eager to hear what you and the CSM come to agree with. I'm sure that the end result will be acceptable for most of us!

    But in all honesty, the NeX wasn't bashed until now because everyone's initial conception of it seemed to be very different than what we got and what we were afraid we were going to get. I think there are many ways to make extra income from the NeX without raising eyebrows in the community. It's important that both CCP and the players agree to what kind of things we can find in the NeX and at what prices.

    Vandrion
    Gallente
    The Collective
    B O R G
    Posted - 2011.06.26 21:48:00 - [747]
     

    How much do you want to bet there will be a full, LEGALLY binding non-disclosure agreement in front of each CSM when they get to the meeting room???????

    Baillif
    AQUILA INC
    Posted - 2011.06.26 21:48:00 - [748]
     

    Dear CCP,

    If you were out of money you could have just asked. We would have organized a bake sale and sold cookies. Instead you insult us. Not cool. I thought we were friends!

    Love,

    Eve Players

    Velocity Prime
    The Greater Goon
    Clockwork Pineapple
    Posted - 2011.06.26 21:49:00 - [749]
     

    Thanks to the new Arum stuff, CCP now have the money to burn on emergency "oh ****" plane tickets for the CSM.


    Nishachara
    True Enlightenment
    Posted - 2011.06.26 21:50:00 - [750]
     

    Originally by: Idle Bow

    b) If I remember correctly presentations of CCP's CTO, SONY had invested time (at least time) in DUST 514. They even invited CCP in E3 on SONY's stage. It was quite surprising, as not very typical. Usually they will force you to undress if you want to do something with them. That shows their believe and interest in DUST 514. As things became public, I believe CCP had got more constraints to deal with. Deadlines can be part of that. CCP had invested LOTS money into DUST and imagine what happens when platform provider starts to put it's conditions in current phase of project. I think one of results of this can be declaration of DUST as exclusive to PS (earlier XBOX was in the list), and declaration of exclusiveness had put CCP even in more weak position, so deadlines become damn important and title looses its independence. If you are in trouble with deadlines and do not have capacity to boost work, you need to make fund-rising. That may lead to "real business" in eve. That could also lead to sales of company shares. CCP_Fallout had twitted that deal with SOE isn't being discussed. But usually until the deal is signed, all talks are being kept secret (from employees also). Especially if that is about significant amounts of shares.

    It is possible that CCP is in damn bad situation because of SONY and no more independent de facto. And SONY on top of CCP could be the worst news for Eve..


    Yeah maybe there is something in this...
    Idk how that works in a software industry, but in some branches of business if you dont meet the deadline you pay reparations...and thats bad...pretty bad.
    So in a way maybe sony doesnt have ccp (yet) but they have them by the balls in their grip...


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