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Alexandra Alt
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:17:00 - [691]
 

Originally by: Baillif
Originally by: gargars
Originally by: Sophie Vherokior


From the Hilmar e-mail:
"I can tell you that this is one of the moments where we look at what our players do and less of what they say".

This was the worst, the most damaging part of the whole thing, to find out that the CEO of CCP doesn't feel the opinions of the players matter unless they actually cancel their subscriptions.





THIS. No rosy blogs or delay-tactic meetings with the CSM will negate this.


QFT. The biggest concern I have is CCP itself. There seems to be a cancer eating it from within. Between

1. The leaked emails and internal communications showing their horrible internal messaging

2. The inability of the company to do something as simple as upgrade the forum in reasonable timeframe

3. The obvious gaping rift that has formed between CCP and reality (as well as their customer base).

4. The recent drop in quality and quantity of expansion.

5. The horrible business decisions made with WoD and Dust 514 that I don't think anyone expects to see succeed.

6. The dissatisfaction of CCP's own employees.

7. The broken promises.

8. The laughable launch of Incarna as a feature that is an obvious launching pad to MT, and serves little to no other in game purpose.

9. The disregard and utter contempt for the Eve player base expressed by their own CEO.

10. The laughably stupid decisions being made (such as martyring players) which illustrate just how dysfunctional the company has become.


This has all the makings of a gigantic failscade. For a company called Crowd Control Productions you guys sure aren't doing a very good job.

Wake up call. Your game isn't that great. What makes it great is the player base and the community, and you've damaged it and ****ed it off.






Found myself searching for the 'Like' Button!!

Kazturkey
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:17:00 - [692]
 

I accept this. Bringing the CSM to Iceland really shows you're not just going into damage control, you want to fix this.

/hugs

I missed you guys <3

Akira Samposeppa
Gallente
Arthashastra
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:17:00 - [693]
 

Originally by: Lord Khelben
Thank you for your post Zulu. And as others in the CSM have already mentioned, I am sure this weekend must have been an emotionally rough one for you as well as many others at CCP watching this train-wreck unfold. While I can certainly empathize with how difficult it must have been for you, the reality is that you made your bed and now you are lying in it. You reap what you sow.

For a while now, CCP has taken for granted the fierce dedication and loyalty of EVE pilots, and you made the grievous error of assuming that our loyalties and passions were for you. You are very wrong.

Our dedication and loyalty is for the universe we co-created with you.



This universe is as much our work as it is yours. This is why we feel so passionate about it, this is why we rage when we feel that our labor of love is threatened. I am absolutely certain you can completely understand our desire to protect what we love, even as some choose to abandon it while it remains a shadow of what we remember it to be; some would rather preserve the memory of it than watch it corrupt.

You should definitely feel proud that you've co-authored something so massive, so organic, so evolving, and so unique as EVE, but all of CCP would do well to remember, especially important decision makers like Hilmar, that EVE is only ever what it is now because it is a collaboration with us, your pilots, your customers, your co-creators of New Eden as we know it. After all, isn't that what EVE is all about: "The Universe, Unscripted"? You may have created the body in which New Eden exists, but we are the cells in that body, and we are fighting to protect what you are doing to it against your own better judgement. We are, in essence, doing what we can to save EVE and CCP from itself.

Trust has been broken over the course of many poor decisions made largely in part to a "rock-star" attitude CCP leadership really needs to shed, so you'll have to forgive us if we remain skeptical. That said, I am cautiously optimistic that maybe, just maybe, you've learned your lesson a little bit this time, will work toward positive change in how CCP communicates and collaborates with us, the co-authors and passionate participants of this sandbox universe you've kicked off. Just remember that this passion you've cultivated in us for EVE that has made CCP as successful as it is today can be just as destructive as it is creative when carelessly or arrogantly not taken care of.

Show the players some love and you won't be unhappy with the outcome.


Creation is so precious and greed so destructive.

Arya Greywolf
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:18:00 - [694]
 

Welp, unfortunately this still does not answer the main question/concern we have -directly-. They are still tip-toeing around the issue. CSMs, PLEASE, PLEASE make these our two core issues!

Additionally, they did not even ADDRESS the second big issue that players are peeved about - getting the old hanger view back.

So, it remains:

1) Are you going to EVER go beyond non vanity items with aurum?



2) Are we going to get the old hanger view back with the *permanent* option to "disembark" via station button?


Ozlyn
Minmatar
AP Solutions
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:20:00 - [695]
 

Originally by: Algathas
I will keep my accounts unsubbed while I wait for a real answer.


This

But I will be optimistic about it.

Cadela Fria
Amarr
x13
Raiden.
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:20:00 - [696]
 

Originally by: Kazturkey
I accept this. Bringing the CSM to Iceland really shows you're not just going into damage control, you want to fix this.

/hugs

I missed you guys <3


+1

Maa Ku
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:21:00 - [697]
 

Edited by: Maa Ku on 26/06/2011 21:23:27
Better than the Friday blog. Still sounds like you're telling everyone it's not a problem. It is a problem.

You must understand that the reason why a lot of players play this game is the really open system, both in game and as a company, you have created. EVE is not a cash cow and if you try to turn it into one in this manner you risk losing the players who enjoy the game as it is.

Edit: Also we really need that hanger view back :)

Havegun Willtravel
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:21:00 - [698]
 

Edited by: Havegun Willtravel on 27/06/2011 01:22:04
Thank you for your reply Zulu,

No one is perfect, and certainly you're not the first person to ever get Emo in eve so we'll let that ride for the time being.

"there are no and never have been plans to sell "gold ammo" for Aurum" This is slightly reassuring to read and will no doubt placate a certain number of people who value both the content, balance , and integrity of the game.

I continue to believe however that this is merely a symptom of a greater problem effecting CCP at this time and the development of EVE. The other numerous issues are well documented in a number of threads and dont bear repeating here.

You're invitation to the CSM is welcome but slightly disappointing at the same time. A conference call on wednesday or friday would have been a more immediate solution but perhaps the 30 days delay will allow you greater time to reflect internally as to the genuine direction and agenda to which you plan to steer CCP in the coming months and years.

While this may quiet some ( dont count on it ) clearly understand, this is not over. Genuine solutions need to come from this and not just hollow statements.




Llambda
Space Llama Industries
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:21:00 - [699]
 

This forum really needs to lose the font size formatting options.

Komen
Gallente
Capital Enrichment Services
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:21:00 - [700]
 

Originally by: Akira Samposeppa
Originally by: Lord Khelben
Thank you for your post Zulu. And as others in the CSM have already mentioned, I am sure this weekend must have been an emotionally rough one for you as well as many others at CCP watching this train-wreck unfold. While I can certainly empathize with how difficult it must have been for you, the reality is that you made your bed and now you are lying in it. You reap what you sow.

For a while now, CCP has taken for granted the fierce dedication and loyalty of EVE pilots, and you made the grievous error of assuming that our loyalties and passions were for you. You are very wrong.

Our dedication and loyalty is for the universe we co-created with you.



This universe is as much our work as it is yours. This is why we feel so passionate about it, this is why we rage when we feel that our labor of love is threatened. I am absolutely certain you can completely understand our desire to protect what we love, even as some choose to abandon it while it remains a shadow of what we remember it to be; some would rather preserve the memory of it than watch it corrupt.

You should definitely feel proud that you've co-authored something so massive, so organic, so evolving, and so unique as EVE, but all of CCP would do well to remember, especially important decision makers like Hilmar, that EVE is only ever what it is now because it is a collaboration with us, your pilots, your customers, your co-creators of New Eden as we know it. After all, isn't that what EVE is all about: "The Universe, Unscripted"? You may have created the body in which New Eden exists, but we are the cells in that body, and we are fighting to protect what you are doing to it against your own better judgement. We are, in essence, doing what we can to save EVE and CCP from itself.

Trust has been broken over the course of many poor decisions made largely in part to a "rock-star" attitude CCP leadership really needs to shed, so you'll have to forgive us if we remain skeptical. That said, I am cautiously optimistic that maybe, just maybe, you've learned your lesson a little bit this time, will work toward positive change in how CCP communicates and collaborates with us, the co-authors and passionate participants of this sandbox universe you've kicked off. Just remember that this passion you've cultivated in us for EVE that has made CCP as successful as it is today can be just as destructive as it is creative when carelessly or arrogantly not taken care of.

Show the players some love and you won't be unhappy with the outcome.


Creation is so precious and greed so destructive.


Says it perfectly.

Kuhn Arashi
Caldari
Wrecking Shots
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:23:00 - [701]
 

Here CCP, I'll lend you a Hand.


LordElfa
Gallente
Golden Lyon Warriors
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:23:00 - [702]
 

I'm encouraged but not relaxed.

Camall Trady
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:24:00 - [703]
 


Tobin Shalim
Eclipse Industrials
Quantum Forge
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:24:00 - [704]
 

What you do, not what you say.

Vandrion
Gallente
The Collective
B O R G
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:24:00 - [705]
 

"However, just to prove the point of the Fearless newsletter and give you a further understanding of what it is then there are no and never have been plans to sell "gold ammo" for Aurum. In Fearless people are arguing a point, which doesn't even have to be their view, they are debating an issue. This is another example of how information out of context is no information at all."

Now, here is a quote from the newsletter. Note that this quote is from page 9 after the comments by the 2 Devs. The title for the article is ---EVE:
Delivering the goods:
virtual sales in Incarna

Read the page..... It is not their to foster debate. It is a statement of fact for what CCP has planned.

"CCP is in the process of adopting a virtual sales
model for its game products. While this model has
always been intended for World of Darkness and
DUST 514, you may be wondering how this will
work in EVE Online. Specifically, how will this new
strategy unfold in Incarna?"

"Not all virtual purchases will
focus on customization: some will
simply be new items, ammunition,
ships, etc. that can be purchased
outright."

"One other service we’re looking
at is selling faction standings."

"So we might sell
tiny things or batches of consumable
goods for just a few “micro-
PLEX,” but we would have the option
to sell premium content and
services at a much higher price
point."

"Thus, we will not and cannot focus
on virtual sales only within the Incarna
environment, nor build that
environment around such sales;
rather, we will effect a universal
strategy of micro-sales throughout
the EVE experience."

Sure sounds like they have plans for it to me!

Zulu's latest blog is BS.

Harris
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:25:00 - [706]
 

To the CSM going to represent our views, please just remember one thing if anything.

Just promise you won't go in all emo like 95% of the forum posts have been. Stay your ground as you've said you will, get answers and explain your position well as you must... but please behave maturely and professionally or they'll just assume you're all emo and ignore what you say anyway.

No one wants to deal with a kid having a tantrum and frankly I'm having a little sympathy with CCP at the moment at the over reaction in some quarters about this all, spinning myths and rumours as if they're fact when they've been countered already and knee-jerk reacting to chinese whispers.

I know a few questions need to be answered still so good luck on getting those but please, mature and professional to the end, yeah?

KrustyKrab
Can We Haz Your Stuff
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:26:00 - [707]
 

Edited by: KrustyKrab on 26/06/2011 21:27:06
This is only my personal opinion.

So after a few days of deafening silence, we get yet another placating, time-wasting, stalling tactic via a devblog. As others have pointed out, you have clarified NOTHING. Gold Ammo could be your little code for...whatever you want, so you can come back later and say 'well we never said ships or skillpoint enhancements, we said 'no gold ammo' so why is everyone upset again???'

I mean, we don't really know. Yet another horrible, vague, still seemingly smug reply to a community who has erupted into a nuclear fireball of fury is all I see. You didn't answer the BIG YELLOW QUESTION. You may think you have, but you smartly skirted the details leaving everyone hanging again. Again! I don't know who is mixing up the Cherry Stupid-Aid, but maybe a little more sugar, and a little less stupid would make the drink a little less bitter as it slides down our throats.

At this point, I simply cannot respond to you (CCP) with anything but your own words: We are more interested in what you do than in what you say. So far you have done nothing except fan the flames even more.

I've taken a few days off from even logging into Eve. Seven accounts are unsubbed and/or idle waiting for the remaining play time to finish on them. A lot of others have unsubbed but they've missed the point and when we see 40,000+ active players, it simply proves, unfortunately, that CCP is correct in their observations over the years: Eve's player base is full of hot air and even flames, but it is a cold, non-burning flame. By logging in continually even after cancelling a subscription, it is merely a prelude to the reality that you, CCP, will continue to shoe-horn changes that the community absolutely is opposed to because you KNOW for a fact that thousands will threaten to quit, even thousands will go into the account mgmt page and cancel their subs, but soon enough they will click 'subscribe again' or add PLEX gametime to their accounts and pretend that their rear ends are only a little sore and a little bloody, instead of being a gaping wound. And we Eve players? We'll say things like "well, it only bled a little, and the pain is manageable if you sit on a donut cushion a while."

I was sad to see that nothing has changed other than hundreds, possibly a thousand or more of us decided to not login and go play Perpetuum or WoT or whatever else. But the login numbers on TQ didn't seem to change one iota, which tells everyone with a stake in this matter that you, CCP, are correct in your observations, and that we are just a bunch of puffy-chested liars who will scuttle back under your wing in the end. I think mostly this is because Eve takes forever and a day to really get anywhere, and after ~8 years or so, most of us simply have too much invested in the game to actually give more than token voice to the protests.

Ten thousand replies! A million views! On a single thread at that, not counting the disastrously smarmy devblog, the smaller wildfires that have jumped firelines/firebreaks. And yet, it still wasn't/isn't enough. Again because we players are nothing more than hollow schlubs who are too addicted to your crack after being strung out for years. I mean, what player that has spend the 75bil or so for a Titan and the skills to fly it would want to really give it up? Which alliance after fighting endless battles and serious metagaming is ready to give up their gold farm out in nullsec? I myself have billions upon billions in assets in Eve, and I'll admit the going is extremely rough right now. Today my alliance and friends went on a pretty huge roam, and the kb shows some good kills, kills that I normally am on, and yeah it sucks. It feels like I'm the only who is really adamant about not participating until real questions are answered.

But I am pretty sure the major question is not going to be resolved. You didn't answer the BIG YELLOW QUESTION yet. Gold ammo means nothing. Your words mean nothing.

ACTIONS.

We'll see..

Korbin Dallaz
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:26:00 - [708]
 

Since you guys seem to have lost touch with what eve is let me remind you here. Eve is all about the player driven economy. That used to be you biggest selling point and what you marketed the most. It is a huge part of why many of us played this game.

If you wanted to introduce so called vanity items into the game in a manner keeping true to Eve you would have made clothing design a new profession. Created new skills around it. Come up with an interface which allowed creative players to make some really cool stuff. This could be worked into PI and when we can actually walk in stations people could open store fronts. You could have gone in a really cool direction with this that would enrich the Eve experience and not cheapen it. Since clothing gets destroyed when you get podded this could also be another of the isk sinks that you are looking for.

BTW since clothes get destroyed when you get podded, as I have read that they do, no one is even mentioning a pretty basic change in the game. Now that you can see someone wearing a monacle in their picture and know that they spent $70 on it that adds a whole aspect to the podding mechanics that I have not heard mentioned yet.

As far as calling a CSM meeting in the near future why should that mean anything to anyone. The CSM is strictly a PR tool. You do not listen to them. You do not keep your promises to them. There is what in my opinion a troublingly high number of ex-CSM members that largely left the game after their term likely due to the disgust created in dealing with you guys. I doubt many people in this game believe anything of use will come of the CSM meeting other than more propaganda and dog and pony show. If you have not listened to them in the past why should we believe that you will now ?

Steve Thomas
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:26:00 - [709]
 

I concure with this blog.

nuf said.

I'm Down
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:26:00 - [710]
 

Originally by: Kazturkey
I accept this. Bringing the CSM to Iceland really shows you're not just going into damage control, you want to fix this.

/hugs

I missed you guys <3


nieve pushovers

DarkTemplarCrimsonWolf
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:27:00 - [711]
 

Originally by: Harris
To the CSM going to represent our views, please just remember one thing if anything.

Just promise you won't go in all emo like 95% of the forum posts have been. Stay your ground as you've said you will, get answers and explain your position well as you must... but please behave maturely and professionally or they'll just assume you're all emo and ignore what you say anyway.

No one wants to deal with a kid having a tantrum and frankly I'm having a little sympathy with CCP at the moment at the over reaction in some quarters about this all, spinning myths and rumours as if they're fact when they've been countered already and knee-jerk reacting to chinese whispers.

I know a few questions need to be answered still so good luck on getting those but please, mature and professional to the end, yeah?

/sarcasm I am goth you emo poser so back off /sarcasm

But yeah, keep it cool and don't let up, MT non-vanity= death.

Kazturkey
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:27:00 - [712]
 

Originally by: Maa Ku
Edited by: Maa Ku on 26/06/2011 21:23:27
Better than the Friday blog. Still sounds like you're telling everyone it's not a problem. It is a problem.

You must understand that the reason why a lot of players play this game is the really open system, both in game and as a company, you have created. EVE is not a cash cow and if you try to turn it into one in this manner you risk losing the players who enjoy the game as it is.

Edit: Also we really need that hanger view back :)


If they didn't think it was a problem they would not be bringing the CSM to Iceland. They're serious here, and we should give them the benefit of the doubt.

Baillif
AQUILA INC
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:28:00 - [713]
 

Originally by: Vandrion
"However, just to prove the point of the Fearless newsletter and give you a further understanding of what it is then there are no and never have been plans to sell "gold ammo" for Aurum. In Fearless people are arguing a point, which doesn't even have to be their view, they are debating an issue. This is another example of how information out of context is no information at all."

Now, here is a quote from the newsletter. Note that this quote is from page 9 after the comments by the 2 Devs. The title for the article is ---EVE:
Delivering the goods:
virtual sales in Incarna

Read the page..... It is not their to foster debate. It is a statement of fact for what CCP has planned.

"CCP is in the process of adopting a virtual sales
model for its game products. While this model has
always been intended for World of Darkness and
DUST 514, you may be wondering how this will
work in EVE Online. Specifically, how will this new
strategy unfold in Incarna?"

"Not all virtual purchases will
focus on customization: some will
simply be new items, ammunition,
ships, etc. that can be purchased
outright."

"One other service we’re looking
at is selling faction standings."

"So we might sell
tiny things or batches of consumable
goods for just a few “micro-
PLEX,” but we would have the option
to sell premium content and
services at a much higher price
point."

"Thus, we will not and cannot focus
on virtual sales only within the Incarna
environment, nor build that
environment around such sales;
rather, we will effect a universal
strategy of micro-sales throughout
the EVE experience."

Sure sounds like they have plans for it to me!

Zulu's latest blog is BS.


Zulu is part of the problem.

Saska Samar
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:28:00 - [714]
 

As a moron once said:

"this is one of the moments where we look at what our players do and less of what they say"

Therefore:

"this is one of the moments where we look at what CCP do and less of what they say"

Because liars lie. My accounts are paid till August so convince me why I should resub to pay for Dust and WoD.


Angeliq
Minmatar
Soimii Patriei
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:28:00 - [715]
 

Originally by: Julian Kirov

Here's a presentation from the creators of BF:Heroes that explains why Hilmar gives no fcks about the forums.

http://www.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win




This is a very interesting presentation. Everyone should... MUST watch it!

This presentation will tell you why EVE Online WILL have a Cash Shop WITH GAME CHANGING ITEMS beyond vanity ones!! It shows that the business model works and why it will work in EVE too.


Maa Ku
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:30:00 - [716]
 

Zulu, please don't take all this personally. I know it probably is not a great week for you.

We are only rising against the changes because we want the game to be good. It's because we care about the game not because anyone enjoys being this way just because.

Sheila Sarani
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:30:00 - [717]
 

Originally by: Korbin Dallaz
BTW since clothes get destroyed when you get podded, as I have read that they do, no one is even mentioning a pretty basic change in the game. Now that you can see someone wearing a monacle in their picture and know that they spent $70 on it that adds a whole aspect to the podding mechanics that I have not heard mentioned yet.


No they do NOT being destroyed, it was in first draft before they put such pricetag on them, they arent destroyed now and this makes me fear the non vanity items will also be indestructible (you get reissued new one same as your noob ship after death).

Inca Jones
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:32:00 - [718]
 

Quote:
If they didn't think it was a problem they would not be bringing the CSM to Iceland. They're serious here, and we should give them the benefit of the doubt.


I agree with this. Thanks for the blog.

Kimbli d'Rohan
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:32:00 - [719]
 

This is a step in the right direction. I have unsubscribed but my sub will still be active until late August; time enough to see the outcome of the meeting with CSM. If EVE is moving towards pay-to-win I'll stay cancelled. Vanity items (even crazily priced ones) I can live with; if that's all that is planned I will resubscribe - I don't have to buy them, and won't at current prices.

Lord Cath
Amarr
Gung-Ho
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:33:00 - [720]
 

Here is me living on hope... my resubbing depends on the outcome. Don't know what to epxect realy. Still, I give them a chance, since CCP used to do things the right way.


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