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Pr1ncess Alia
Posted - 2011.06.26 20:55:00 - [661]
 

Edited by: Pr1ncess Alia on 26/06/2011 20:57:16
Originally by: Shemmy
I feel sorry for Zulu, I'm pretty sure he's going to be "sacrificed" when this finally reaches a resolution (if not before) and my feeling is it's not his fault.


I do agree with this.

No matter how influential or how high up the food chain one is as a dev, they have bosses that have expectations.

Managment dictates the course a company takes. I can't even completely condemn Zulu for his own remarks.... as there are most definitely things he simply can not say and things he is being told to say.

I hope people that are concerned about this and voicing their opinions understand that. As a rather critical person myself, I hope that the devs realize that these are not personal attacks on them, but attacks on CCP policy and business decisions. People like Zulu i think get stuck in the middle....not fair, but that is their job.

Its a very small gray area and the detach between one and the other isn't always easy to distinguish. Especially when we know how much most of the dev team really and truely care about the game and the company. Thus the harsh remarks in the first dev blog which I can completely understand and don't even think an apology was required for.



I've played this game for 7 years, I do not think I'm being unreasonable nor do I think our fears are unfounded. It's not uncommon for a company to go from milking their cow to slaughtering for market. I've watched many companies do this, gaming and otherwise, and I think CCP is on the precipice.

It's not anything CCP has said, it's what they haven't said. And that is almost certainly intentional and strategic.

And that is why I will not resub without an extraordinary display sufficient enough to both gain my trust back and leave me confident that they are not driving down a road that changes the fundamentals of this game.

Dalton Vanadis
Posted - 2011.06.26 20:55:00 - [662]
 

Originally by: Lord Khelben
Thank you for your post Zulu. And as others in the CSM have already mentioned, I am sure this weekend must have been an emotionally rough one for you as well as many others at CCP watching this train-wreck unfold. While I can certainly empathize with how difficult it must have been for you, the reality is that you made your bed and now you are lying in it. You reap what you sow.

For a while now, CCP has taken for granted the fierce dedication and loyalty of EVE pilots, and you made the grievous error of assuming that our loyalties and passions were for you. You are very wrong.

Our dedication and loyalty is for the universe we co-created with you.



This universe is as much our work as it is yours. This is why we feel so passionate about it, this is why we rage when we feel that our labor of love is threatened. I am absolutely certain you can completely understand our desire to protect what we love, even as some choose to abandon it while it remains a shadow of what we remember it to be; some would rather preserve the memory of it than watch it corrupt.

You should definitely feel proud that you've co-authored something so massive, so organic, so evolving, and so unique as EVE, but all of CCP would do well to remember, especially important decision makers like Hilmar, that EVE is only ever what it is now because it is a collaboration with us, your pilots, your customers, your co-creators of New Eden as we know it. After all, isn't that what EVE is all about: "The Universe, Unscripted"? You may have created the body in which New Eden exists, but we are the cells in that body, and we are fighting to protect what you are doing to it against your own better judgement. We are, in essence, doing what we can to save EVE and CCP from itself.

Trust has been broken over the course of many poor decisions made largely in part to a "rock-star" attitude CCP leadership really needs to shed, so you'll have to forgive us if we remain skeptical. That said, I am cautiously optimistic that maybe, just maybe, you've learned your lesson a little bit this time, will work toward positive change in how CCP communicates and collaborates with us, the co-authors and passionate participants of this sandbox universe you've kicked off. Just remember that this passion you've cultivated in us for EVE that has made CCP as successful as it is today can be just as destructive as it is creative when carelessly or arrogantly not taken care of.

Show the players some love and you won't be unhappy with the outcome.

^^this, couldn't have put it better myself.

Jimmy Duce
Chaotic Tranquility
Posted - 2011.06.26 20:56:00 - [663]
 

Quote:
In Fearless people are arguing a point, which doesn't even have to be their view, they are debating an issue. This is another example of how information out of context is no information at all.




This should have been the first response. I really do hope you understand the big yellow question. This protest is NOT about $70 monocles, it is about any attempt to introduce game changing items and potentially subvert the player driven content/market that makes Eve Eve.

Katra Novac
Posted - 2011.06.26 20:56:00 - [664]
 

Originally by: Obsidian Hawk


TL;DR of the dev blog.

CCP Zulu on behalf of CCP Game - we are sorry, we seriously messed up and created a pr disaster with our newsletters that were debating an issue, and ccp hillmars email.

WE WILL NOT SELL PAY TO WIN ITEMS EVER AND NEVER WILL.

However because of this PR disaster and the people leaving, we know we really really need to redeem ourselves, and are getting the CSM out here for a huge summitt, to redeem ourselves.

Please eve mail the csm with your questions, concerns and what you would like to see in EvE. We love you we love this game, and want to redeem ourselves in the eyes of the community.



CCP zulu, thanks for saying there will never be pay to win, you have reaffirmed my hope this game will forever be my mmo.




You obviously read a different dev blog, troll on.

Casanunda
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.26 20:59:00 - [665]
 

Edited by: Casanunda on 26/06/2011 21:04:16
Not as insulting as the last dev blog on this matter. The apology is a step in the right direction but the elephant in the room is still there, you can't sweep an elephant under a carpet especially when it's burning as fiercely as this one.

Eve is a game populated by adults who excel in propaganda, stabbing each other in the face, metagaming, espionage, conquest and generally screwing stuff up for other people. Don't try and pull the wool over our eyes we're better at all of the above than CCP are, especially the propaganda part.

The burning question still stands
"Will there be non vanity items available for AUR/GTC/PLEX/Hard cash available in the NEX/other store of your choosing that aren't already available through the player run economy?"

Non vanity being ships, ammunition, implants, skill points, weapons/weapon upgrades and anything else that may be even remotely construed as giving an ingame tactical advantage.


"Golden ammo" is too vague a term to use when trying to calm a mob wielding pitchforks, flaming torches and rainbow broadsides especially after the insulting dev blog & CCP internal documents that have come to the players attention in the last few days.

For now I can foresee the protests carrying on until the CSM meeting next week, I can also foresee the rate at which you are bleeding subscriptions not slowing down, the subscriptions you are bleeding are not just casual players they include people who have provided a lot of the content that make real life headlines and out of game tools that make Eve great.

I for one will not consider renewing my subs until this matter is clearly resolved in a fashion that clearly states an answer to the questions asked and not some corporate reacharound to stall for time whilst you get your crap together and the PR machine is rebooted.

Meanwhile, Jita and Amarr are still burning and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. As Queen Victoria once said "We are not amused"

DRG197
Posted - 2011.06.26 20:59:00 - [666]
 

Originally by: Lord Khelben
Thank you for your post Zulu. And as others in the CSM have already mentioned, I am sure this weekend must have been an emotionally rough one for you as well as many others at CCP watching this train-wreck unfold. While I can certainly empathize with how difficult it must have been for you, the reality is that you made your bed and now you are lying in it. You reap what you sow.

For a while now, CCP has taken for granted the fierce dedication and loyalty of EVE pilots, and you made the grievous error of assuming that our loyalties and passions were for you. You are very wrong.

Our dedication and loyalty is for the universe we co-created with you.



This universe is as much our work as it is yours. This is why we feel so passionate about it, this is why we rage when we feel that our labor of love is threatened. I am absolutely certain you can completely understand our desire to protect what we love, even as some choose to abandon it while it remains a shadow of what we remember it to be; some would rather preserve the memory of it than watch it corrupt.

You should definitely feel proud that you've co-authored something so massive, so organic, so evolving, and so unique as EVE, but all of CCP would do well to remember, especially important decision makers like Hilmar, that EVE is only ever what it is now because it is a collaboration with us, your pilots, your customers, your co-creators of New Eden as we know it. After all, isn't that what EVE is all about: "The Universe, Unscripted"? You may have created the body in which New Eden exists, but we are the cells in that body, and we are fighting to protect what you are doing to it against your own better judgement. We are, in essence, doing what we can to save EVE and CCP from itself.

Trust has been broken over the course of many poor decisions made largely in part to a "rock-star" attitude CCP leadership really needs to shed, so you'll have to forgive us if we remain skeptical. That said, I am cautiously optimistic that maybe, just maybe, you've learned your lesson a little bit this time, will work toward positive change in how CCP communicates and collaborates with us, the co-authors and passionate participants of this sandbox universe you've kicked off. Just remember that this passion you've cultivated in us for EVE that has made CCP as successful as it is today can be just as destructive as it is creative when carelessly or arrogantly not taken care of.

Show the players some love and you won't be unhappy with the outcome.


I concur with this completely. CCP you really dropped the ball this time...

Keydn
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:00:00 - [667]
 

So, anyone done the math on how many monocles CCP will have to sell through NeX to pay for the plane fare?

If CCP wants to deal with CSM on this, I can understand and support that...but CSM needs to poll the community and represent us as a group...and I want the minutes from that meeting released immediately after it is over.

It is sad we cannot trust you.

It is sad you cannot believe us.

The only solution moving forward that I can see regardless of what does and does not get implemented is complete and utter transparency on this issue, and a lot more transparency than we usually get in future developments.

Asking us for our advice and thoughts is never wrong. What could possibly gone wrong with starting a forum thread or some town-hall style web meets or fireside chats with open topics that CCP throws out and then lets us debate. "Hey, players...micro transactions in EVE...whatcha think?" Oh sure, you'd see some of the same complaints you see now...but then you could have listened, addressed them (or not) and proceeded and everyone would know where we stand.

You don't honestly think we the players are your enemies, do you? That we want you to fail? That we want developers and programmers and PR people and CEOs to loose their jobs and living? That we want EVE to vanish into the night to be remembered by few and regretted by many?

Bottom line: We want what is best for EVE, YOU want what is best for EVE. This situation should never have gotten this far out of hand, but damn it, we are here and we all need to deal with it.


Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation
RONA Directorate
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:01:00 - [668]
 

Originally by: Katra Novac
Originally by: Obsidian Hawk


TL;DR of the dev blog.

CCP Zulu on behalf of CCP Game - we are sorry, we seriously messed up and created a pr disaster with our newsletters that were debating an issue, and ccp hillmars email.

WE WILL NOT SELL PAY TO WIN ITEMS EVER AND NEVER WILL.

However because of this PR disaster and the people leaving, we know we really really need to redeem ourselves, and are getting the CSM out here for a huge summitt, to redeem ourselves.

Please eve mail the csm with your questions, concerns and what you would like to see in EvE. We love you we love this game, and want to redeem ourselves in the eyes of the community.



CCP zulu, thanks for saying there will never be pay to win, you have reaffirmed my hope this game will forever be my mmo.




You obviously read a different dev blog, troll on.



However, just to prove the point of the Fearless newsletter and give you a further understanding of what it is then there are no and never have been plans to sell "gold ammo" for Aurum.

I dont know what that means to you, but to me that says, there will be no pay to win, there will be no game altering items.

Raid'En
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:01:00 - [669]
 

Edited by: Raid''En on 26/06/2011 21:03:25
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow

I can tell you without fear of contradiction that "Gold ammo" is shorthand for "any non-vanity item".

I see everyone scared saying that the wording of the blog must have been well choosed, and that, so, saying "ammos" and nothing else is a proof that non-vanity items will come...
and i do think it's the case ; that if CCPchoosed this word and not something more general, it's because they can't, and that we will not like at all what they are planning for MT...
So, PLEASE CCP, if what Trebor is saying here is really what you wanted to say, SAY IT NOW, LOUD AND CLEAR, and not later.

Takseen
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:02:00 - [670]
 

Quote:
However I let my frustration take charge of me, fueled by emotions that had built up due to a breach of trust we at CCP have been experiencing over the past few days.


Is he referring to whoever leaked the "Fearless" document?

Celebris Nexterra
Gallente
Jupiter Force
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:03:00 - [671]
 

Come on, guys, I'm just as up-in-arms as you are about the possibility of non-vanity items being sold through MT, but they just called an emergency CSM meeting (which I assume is costing THEM money to fly the CSM out there), so they obviously want to make the right move here.

Give them a break until we find out what happens with the meeting.

DarkTemplarCrimsonWolf
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:03:00 - [672]
 

Originally by: Obsidian Hawk
Originally by: Katra Novac
Originally by: Obsidian Hawk


TL;DR of the dev blog.

CCP Zulu on behalf of CCP Game - we are sorry, we seriously messed up and created a pr disaster with our newsletters that were debating an issue, and ccp hillmars email.

WE WILL NOT SELL PAY TO WIN ITEMS EVER AND NEVER WILL.

However because of this PR disaster and the people leaving, we know we really really need to redeem ourselves, and are getting the CSM out here for a huge summitt, to redeem ourselves.

Please eve mail the csm with your questions, concerns and what you would like to see in EvE. We love you we love this game, and want to redeem ourselves in the eyes of the community.



CCP zulu, thanks for saying there will never be pay to win, you have reaffirmed my hope this game will forever be my mmo.




You obviously read a different dev blog, troll on.



However, just to prove the point of the Fearless newsletter and give you a further understanding of what it is then there are no and never have been plans to sell "gold ammo" for Aurum.

I dont know what that means to you, but to me that says, there will be no pay to win, there will be no game altering items.


Translation: We will never directly sell gold ammo. That's not stopping them from selling hold ammo bpcs, gold ships, gold implants, etc. Learn to read the actual sentence before you speak lest you be taken for someone who'd vote Bush another time.

Ban Doga
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:03:00 - [673]
 

Originally by: Ithiria Deritan
Second: CCP * smacks upside head* add DEBATE to your internal newsletter topics so if it ever gets leaked again we know it is a debate not POLICY


But why have this debate in the first place?
If they already decided not to sell anything but vanity-items then why do they need to argue about the pros and cons of doing it?
Is that some kind of internal debate club?
Did they ran out of ideas they are still considering for implementation to discuss?
Were they afraid that someone might go rogue and implement non-vanity items for sale, so they needed this "devil's advocate" to explain why they decided not to do this?
What's the logic behind spending resources on an internal newsletter about something you decided not to do?
And why was that topic chosen and not e.g. going IPO or closing the whole company?

If there was an internal debate about the pros and cons of resetting the whole universe back to day 1, would sit there happily and think "Oh they're just debating. They already decided not to do that so it's all cool!"

Katra Novac
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:04:00 - [674]
 

Originally by: Obsidian Hawk
Originally by: Katra Novac
Originally by: Obsidian Hawk


TL;DR of the dev blog.

CCP Zulu on behalf of CCP Game - we are sorry, we seriously messed up and created a pr disaster with our newsletters that were debating an issue, and ccp hillmars email.

WE WILL NOT SELL PAY TO WIN ITEMS EVER AND NEVER WILL.

However because of this PR disaster and the people leaving, we know we really really need to redeem ourselves, and are getting the CSM out here for a huge summitt, to redeem ourselves.

Please eve mail the csm with your questions, concerns and what you would like to see in EvE. We love you we love this game, and want to redeem ourselves in the eyes of the community.



CCP zulu, thanks for saying there will never be pay to win, you have reaffirmed my hope this game will forever be my mmo.




You obviously read a different dev blog, troll on.



However, just to prove the point of the Fearless newsletter and give you a further understanding of what it is then there are no and never have been plans to sell "gold ammo" for Aurum.

I dont know what that means to you, but to me that says, there will be no pay to win, there will be no game altering items.



To most other people it means there was never any plans to sell golden ammo, there could be plans to sell red ammo. Anyway we already know there were plans to have non-vanity items for sale.

Irn VanBru
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:04:00 - [675]
 

read the blog, and still feel the same way i did before the blog.

too vauge and avoiding the real questions.

Pr1ncess Alia
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:06:00 - [676]
 

Originally by: Obsidian Hawk

I dont know what that means to you, but to me that says, there will be no pay to win, there will be no game altering items.


Why leave room for interpretation when you can just as easily leave no room for interpretation?

The answer to that is the very reason people are unsubscribing. If the blog had been written by an idiot or offhand among a slew of remarks I'd not really pay it much attention.

That it is the entiretly of CCPs official statement on the subject in the face of so many questions is telling. To assume it's not intentionally vague is just not logical.

The fact they feel the need to be strategically simple in their remarks is concerning.

Jinto Aurgnet
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:07:00 - [677]
 

Thank you, Zulu, for your clarification! I'm sure it is very difficult to be in the position you are in. There is obviously a lot of rage and disappointment going around. It would be hard for anyone not to get caught up in it!

I think CCP is on the right track. Please continue this channel of communication with us (the pilots).

The coming weeks will be a critical time of rebuilding for the community. I'm looking forward to hearing more from you and the folks at CCP :) .

Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:08:00 - [678]
 

Originally by: Erik Finnegan
Originally by: Niraia
"gold ammo" is too vague, and you know it.


He used a well-established metaphor. No gold ammo means there will not be game mechanic relevant item sales on the NeX. That is part of the answer we wanted to hear.


He didn't actually say that though, you're just making that assumption in your own head. Granted that is one possible interpretation of what he said and the likely one he wanted you to make, but it's odd that after several days of people demanding a clear answer to one simple question, he goes out of his way to try to dodge the issue with another metafor. The simple fact that denouncin non-vanity MT is so hard for him to do is an indication that they are planning to move in that direction to some extent. Otherwise there would be no point in trying so hard to wiggle out of answering the question in a clear and precise manner.

We will see what come of the CSM meeting. CCP as a corporation doesn't have any trust left with me, so you'll have to excuse me if I'm going to be a bit sceptical about what they say. As the old man pointed out words are pointless at this point, only deeds matter.

JitaPriceChecker2
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:08:00 - [679]
 

Originally by: Darik Jita
what you do, not what you say

El'Niaga
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:09:00 - [680]
 

I have an idea.

This meeting is critically important, to establishing trust again.

Perhaps it would be good to invite some press.

Massively, EuroGamer, PC Gamer, and Kotaku.

You'll need good press to overcome the last week if you plan to and inviting them to take their own notes and make their own minds up could go a long ways.

Obviously if its a numbers thing you don't want public you could have a separate meeting for that. But I feel some sort of press coverage of the CSM and CCP meeting might help all sides feel better.

Obviously it I suppose would depend if they could arrange travel/lodging in time for such an event.

Takseen
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:10:00 - [681]
 

Quote:
Therefore we have asked the CSM to join us in Iceland for an extraordinary meeting June 30th and July 1st to discuss the events of past week, to help us define and address the real underlying concerns, and to assist us in defining and iterating on our virtual goods strategy.

The result of this meeting should be mutual agreement of how virtual goods and services will evolve in EVE. Other issues may be brought up and we urge you to contact the CSM with your comments and concerns so that they may be addressed at this session.


Bottom line is that microtransactions are part of the plan and CCP aren't willing to budge on this. At best you'll get more reasonable prices and a dubious commitment not to sell any non-vanity items in the NEX.

Baillif
AQUILA INC
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:10:00 - [682]
 

Originally by: gargars
Originally by: Sophie Vherokior


From the Hilmar e-mail:
"I can tell you that this is one of the moments where we look at what our players do and less of what they say".

This was the worst, the most damaging part of the whole thing, to find out that the CEO of CCP doesn't feel the opinions of the players matter unless they actually cancel their subscriptions.





THIS. No rosy blogs or delay-tactic meetings with the CSM will negate this.


QFT. The biggest concern I have is CCP itself. There seems to be a cancer eating it from within. Between

1. The leaked emails and internal communications showing their horrible internal messaging

2. The inability of the company to do something as simple as upgrade the forum in reasonable timeframe

3. The obvious gaping rift that has formed between CCP and reality (as well as their customer base).

4. The recent drop in quality and quantity of expansion.

5. The horrible business decisions made with WoD and Dust 514 that I don't think anyone expects to see succeed.

6. The dissatisfaction of CCP's own employees.

7. The broken promises.

8. The laughable launch of Incarna as a feature that is an obvious launching pad to MT, and serves little to no other in game purpose.

9. The disregard and utter contempt for the Eve player base expressed by their own CEO.

10. The laughably stupid decisions being made (such as martyring players) which illustrate just how dysfunctional the company has become.


This has all the makings of a gigantic failscade. For a company called Crowd Control Productions you guys sure aren't doing a very good job.

Wake up call. Your game isn't that great. What makes it great is the player base and the community, and you've damaged it and ****ed it off.




Xzan
The Reformed
Bondage Patrol
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:11:00 - [683]
 

Apologising is humble and good, calling the CSM in is good, releasing a semi-response to specific issues with comments riddle with ambiguity....fearless.

Smoking Blunts
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:11:00 - [684]
 

no to mt that give and in game advantage
make CQ optional. thsi is very important CSM do not forget this

Katra Novac
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:11:00 - [685]
 

Originally by: Jinto Aurgnet
Thank you, Zulu, for your clarification! I'm sure it is very difficult to be in the position you are in. There is obviously a lot of rage and disappointment going around. It would be hard for anyone not to get caught up in it!

I think CCP is on the right track. Please continue this channel of communication with us (the pilots).

The coming weeks will be a critical time of rebuilding for the community. I'm looking forward to hearing more from you and the folks at CCP :) .



What clarification? It was PR bull****.

Ban Doga
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:12:00 - [686]
 

Originally by: Baillif
2. The inability of the company to do something as simple as upgrade the forum in reasonable timeframe


Oh the forums will upgrade in a reasonable timeframe to flush all this into the archives and start over clean in the new forums where there is no threadnaught about this - or anything else.

Solomon XI
Hidden Souls
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:13:00 - [687]
 

Edited by: Solomon XI on 26/06/2011 21:15:45
Edited by: Solomon XI on 26/06/2011 21:14:48
This is a step in the right direction. Hopefully after your CSM meeting, you can give us a better view into your plans. Please listen to the CSM as they represent us and our concerns.

CCP Zulu - I know we've been rough on you guys over the last few days. I won't apologize for it but I will say that you guys did us right today with this blog. Thank you so very much.

PS - Pass on to CCP Pann that we're keeping her in our prayers!

RougeOperator
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:14:00 - [688]
 

Originally by: Celebris Nexterra
Come on, guys, I'm just as up-in-arms as you are about the possibility of non-vanity items being sold through MT, but they just called an emergency CSM meeting (which I assume is costing THEM money to fly the CSM out there), so they obviously want to make the right move here.

Give them a break until we find out what happens with the meeting.



The same CSM that told them not to do this in the first place they they completely ignored for a year and a half. Whom ZULU **** all over when he ignored them when he posted the first dev blog.

Yeah that will get some results. I wont wait around for it.

DarkTemplarCrimsonWolf
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:15:00 - [689]
 

Originally by: Ban Doga
Originally by: Baillif
2. The inability of the company to do something as simple as upgrade the forum in reasonable timeframe


Oh the forums will upgrade in a reasonable timeframe to flush all this into the archives and start over clean in the new forums where there is no threadnaught about this - or anything else.


Right, cause in the new forums we will have a Jovian Threadship.

Angeliq
Minmatar
Soimii Patriei
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:15:00 - [690]
 

Originally by: Julian Kirov

Here's a presentation from the creators of BF:Heroes that explains why Hilmar gives no fcks about the forums.

http://www.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win




This is a very interesting presentation. Everyone should... MUST watch it!

This presentation will tell you why EVE Online WILL have a Cash Shop WITH GAME CHANGING ITEMS beyond vanity ones!! It shows that the business model works and why it will work in EVE too.



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