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stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.26 20:22:00 - [601]
 

I would like to see a dev roadmap as to what features and fixes are planned for the next 12 month time frame (at a minimum.)

I'm less concerned about MTs and more concerned whether Eve is going to focus on Space Barbie or on internet spaceships and to what degree.



Svalinn
SOMER Blink
Cognitive Development
Posted - 2011.06.26 20:23:00 - [602]
 

Judge the players on what we do, less on what they say.

This is a two way street - we judge the company on what it does, and less on what it says. Unfortunately, the company has done nothing but talk so far, so we're kinda left living on scraps. So I'll bite CCP Zulu, and I'll show you the problems you have. I'll point out what you said, and what it translates as.

Quote:
The tone and demeanor of my blog on Friday did not correctly portray my emotions towards the community and player base at large. I love and respect EVE and its community on a level that's hard to really do justice in words. However I let my frustration take charge of me, fueled by emotions that had built up due to a breach of trust we at CCP have been experiencing over the past few days. I know that sounds ironic considering those are the exact same feelings you have been having towards CCP.

A breach of trust is never easy, and you are quite right; you have shattered the trust between us almost for good. The person/persons responsible for the leaked information are heroes in the eyes of the community. And I feel terrible because you are just going to fire/discipline them, the ones who tried to warn us what you were planning.

Quote:
For that I am sorry.

Is this honest?

Quote:
Having cooled off a bit and taken a solemn look at the situation, I see it's clear we need to strengthen the deep mutual trust and respect that's been so unique and descriptive of our relationship. There are certain questions you want answered and there isn't room for more error in our communication on those topics or our perception of the root causes.

Our bond was strong. Then you ignored the CSM, you ignored the players, you treated us like crap and thought you could get away for it. In a single week, you have made EVE Online the laughing stock of the gaming world, broke apart corporations and groups of friends more completely than the best scam, and alienated a player base that is unlike anything else. We are not just some WoW crowd. We are the products of the biggest sandbox ever known; politics, deceit, strategy are our trade. Through this we know you; we know how you operate; we know when you are talking truth, and when you are talking out your arse. Right now, its the latter.

Quote:
Therefore we have asked the CSM to join us in Iceland for an extraordinary meeting June 30th and July 1st to discuss the events of past week, to help us define and address the real underlying concerns, and to assist us in defining and iterating on our virtual goods strategy.

So why does the CSM need to run to Iceland with 4 days notice, to tell you what you already know? Lets be clear: Don't do this unless they actually mean something to you. Otherwise you waste their time and by extension ours.

Quote:
The result of this meeting should be mutual agreement of how virtual goods and services will evolve in EVE. Other issues may be brought up and we urge you to contact the CSM with your comments and concerns so that they may be addressed at this session.

The CSM are the player voice. Right now, that's one very large, very angry voice. There is only one option we will accept, there is no room for compromise.

Quote:
However, just to prove the point of the Fearless newsletter and give you a further understanding of what it is then there are no and never have been plans to sell "gold ammo" for Aurum. In Fearless people are arguing a point, which doesn't even have to be their view, they are debating an issue. This is another example of how information out of context is no information at all.

"gold ammo" is specific, you don't rule out others. What you haven't answered is the big question - Will you sell anything other than Vanity items? This is another example of how information without substance is no information at all.


This isn't about the CSM communicating the player opinion. It's about you being prepared to listen and learn.

Jedek
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.06.26 20:23:00 - [603]
 

Now I'm sure your hilmars ***** Zulu. It doesn't take a summoning of the csm and a week long delay to solve this problem. 1. Don't sell rmt items that give any in game advantage. Keep it strictly vanity. 2 cq needs to be optional with a disembark button.... Like you guys originally promised. 3. Fix a lot of the old **** you put in game but left alone.

All you are doing is buying time and moving the goal post. I dont want to see the nex evolve, I want it to always sell useless crap that won't effect squat. The csm response should be simple, you violated our trust the nex will not go beyond vanity items period. Oh fire hilmar and Zulu since all you seem to be able to do is come across as hilmars lap dog.

You really stepped in it, and I truly hope this game goes the route of swg if the current leadership remains at the helm. Nge ftw.

gargars
Posted - 2011.06.26 20:23:00 - [604]
 

Originally by: Sophie Vherokior


From the Hilmar e-mail:
"I can tell you that this is one of the moments where we look at what our players do and less of what they say".

This was the worst, the most damaging part of the whole thing, to find out that the CEO of CCP doesn't feel the opinions of the players matter unless they actually cancel their subscriptions.





THIS. No rosy blogs or delay-tactic meetings with the CSM will negate this.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.06.26 20:23:00 - [605]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
Either way, MT would still be optional.
…and that's still a thoroughly narrow-minded way of approaching the issue and ignores the fact that MT can quite easily compromise the market.

Thynar
Gallente
Melita Foundation
Posted - 2011.06.26 20:24:00 - [606]
 

This is my first comment on all this issue. I have taken a backseat while trying to digest all the info drowning the spacewaves. My position, as if anyone cares, is against MT for non-vanity items. I could not care less if a monocle costs 50 cents or a million Euros as long as it does not affect gameplay.

The last Zulu devblog leaves me with a sour taste in my mouth. Once again he reiterates on the Fearless newsletter. I find it hard to swallow his line that the Fearless articles were only for internal debate. Should I accept that at face value, it still leaves an unanswered querstion - if the EVE comunity rejected MT for non-vanity items a while ago, why would CCP even need to debate it?

I do not believe that a new and controversial revenue stream like MT is within the CSM's competency. It is a high level decision in any company - the meeting with the CSM screams of delaying tactics.

Fianlly, although I appreciate that "gold ammo" may be interpreted in many ways, please note that a subtantial amount of players in this thread (including me) are not satisfied. We need a statement a la Trebor (apparently struck off by Zulu) to ease our concerns. Incredibly, while the SOE rumour was killed in under an hour, CCP cannot give us this last request.

I have ditched every game that went down the MT road. EVE will be no exception. I am still subbed with two accounts - an alt which runs out on the 7th of July and this character expiring on the 21st of July. My EVE experience seems to be at an end - P2W is not fun for me.

Katra Novac
Posted - 2011.06.26 20:25:00 - [607]
 

Originally by: Mersault
I see this as a positive reply to the community by CCP Zulu. I understand the concerns of the players who have been enraged by the prospect of sandbox breaking or market altering Aurum purchases.

I will be watching to see what the summit brings.

EvE forever.



Positive would have been to say there would be no non-vanity items in the MT shop. I see nothing positive in continually avoiding the question.

Calistai Huranu
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.06.26 20:25:00 - [608]
 

A cast iron promise of No Non-vanity item's will ever be available through Aurum would of sufficed, just stating No "gold" ammo is not enough, as such don't expect me to be renewing my account once its time run's out, thoroughly disgusted by the attitude and behaviour of CCP throughout this debacle.

And to think I was actually contemplating re-activating one of my other account's just last week, to say that's highly unlikely to happen now is a bit of an understatement..




OldPueblo
Thunderwaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.06.26 20:26:00 - [609]
 

CCP reveal your financials, we will audit them.

Cadela Fria
Amarr
x13
Raiden.
Posted - 2011.06.26 20:26:00 - [610]
 

Originally by: Jedek
Now I'm sure your hilmars ***** Zulu. It doesn't take a summoning of the csm and a week long delay to solve this problem. 1. Don't sell rmt items that give any in game advantage. Keep it strictly vanity. 2 cq needs to be optional with a disembark button.... Like you guys originally promised. 3. Fix a lot of the old **** you put in game but left alone.

All you are doing is buying time and moving the goal post. I dont want to see the nex evolve, I want it to always sell useless crap that won't effect squat. The csm response should be simple, you violated our trust the nex will not go beyond vanity items period. Oh fire hilmar and Zulu since all you seem to be able to do is come across as hilmars lap dog.

You really stepped in it, and I truly hope this game goes the route of swg if the current leadership remains at the helm. Nge ftw.



Overreacting a bit, aren't we?
I'm sorry I have to say, speak for yourself.

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.26 20:27:00 - [611]
 

From CSM5 Chair Mynxee, who is currently unsubbed:

Zulu: Thanks for this devblog. We have asked you to engage with the CSM on these weighty recent matters. There is no better demonstration of your commitment to that than flying them to Iceland for face to face communications. This has been a terribly uncomfortable and stressful time for everyone (even people like me who, despite no longer being subbed, cannot seem to stop caring about EVE and its community). I hope this meeting provides a way forward that is in the best interests of EVE, the players, and CCP. Also, I hope that the subsequent minutes are published speedily and in conjunction with dialog and dev blogs from CCP to communicate the results.

Originally by: Mena Arzi
What about PLEX for Remaps? We know that was one of the original ideas, not exactly gamebreaking but still non-vanity MT.

That was part of the original MT discussions with CSM5, the upshot of which was that MT should be vanity-only, and that PLEX for Remaps -- which was a plan that was floated to us, but never formally planned AFAIK -- was over the line.

Thus, no PLEX for Remaps.

Originally by: Garrance
If you realize speed is a big issue - why make us all wait for a week or more by talking to CCP in ICELAND? Do it by Skype and save us all that time waiting. Otherwise it seems just a CCP delay tactic.

We do a lot of Skype chats, and have done voice conferences with CCP in the past. But honestly, they are not nearly as good as being able to look people in the eye and see them sweat when you ask them the tough questions.

That's why people fly around the world for meetings -- they are much higher bandwidth.

No doubt some CSMs will have work obligations that prevent them from attending, and will teleconference in if possible. But that is a poor substitute IMHO -- so in this respect I must disagree with my colleague Meissa.

And of course, we are not going to sit around with our thumbs up our asses for the next few days, we'll be very, very busy prepping.

Originally by: Mag's
Please CSM, tell them we would also like CQ to be optional as promised. Wink

By a staggering coincidence, this is already on our list... Twisted Evil

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2011.06.26 20:27:00 - [612]
 

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Ranger 1

Nope, just smarter and more mature than you.

Don't you have a rage quit to attend to...




While you're out white knighting on your horse, consider at one time MTs were never on the table.


At one point, neither were PLEX.

My point is that the release of the edited, out of context issue of Fearless was little more than an attention grab.

Sensationalistic journalism at it's finest.

Yet instead of cynically realizing this as the EVE community should have easily been capable of doing, it instead allowed the forum trolls to whip people into a mindless frenzy over it.

A LARGE number of people did not fall for it, and tried to say so. However they were repeatedly drown out by those self same trolls.

Believe what you want.

Like everyone else here, I will be waiting to see what CCP does and pay more attention to that than what they say. An attitude that apparently CCP heartily endorses. Laughing

I just refuse to allow doctored documents and half baked theories to interfere with my judgement.




RougeOperator
Posted - 2011.06.26 20:27:00 - [613]
 

Just another blatant stall tactic.

And insulting blog once you dissect what it means.

Souxie Alduin
Posted - 2011.06.26 20:27:00 - [614]
 

"However I let my frustration take charge of me, fueled by emotions that had built up due to a breach of trust we at CCP have been experiencing over the past few days."

Umm.. could someone from CCP elaborate on this? This is definitely the part of this blog that has me the most worried. Did someone at the top sell you out? Are your venture capitalist investors forcing MT down your throat? Are you joining Sony and is it really their PR people talking through your mouths right now?

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2011.06.26 20:27:00 - [615]
 

It's sad to see you have to REpromise somethin you allready did back in 2009 but ok.
Quote:
Therefore we have asked the CSM to join us in Iceland for an extraordinary meeting June 30th and July 1st


We will watch your actions, not your word.


That said there was no better action then actually doing something real like this. But it comes down to what happens that day.

We know you can answer 300 forum posters, and 1000's of players ingame one on one. But you fail to answer the questions of the CSM in such a small group, then it's fing over forever. And not just eve, I'll make sure to denounce all your future games too all of my friends as well.

Svennig
Posted - 2011.06.26 20:28:00 - [616]
 

Ok guys, it's time to give this meeting a chance. I was there in the last thread complaining. I was there in the protests. And now I'm joining the call for a ceasefire here. I'm happy with the answer to MT presented, I'm willing to take them at their word and hope that they move forward with the CSM in good faith.

It's time to give diplomacy a chance people, and to take them at their word on MT. Please, please don't manufacture problems based on wording or some other *******s, it makes us look like a bunch of ******s and it's going to make them disinclined to listen to our concerns.

Right now, Jaw jaw > war war

VicturusTeSaluto
Gallente
Metafarmers
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2011.06.26 20:28:00 - [617]
 

Originally by: CCP Zulu
virtual goods and services will evolve in EVE


they will evolve until we are expected to buy ships, ammo, other items, skillpoints ETC for real money and EVE is pay2win.


CCP once more trying to extinguish a fire with oxygen.

Randomize All
Posted - 2011.06.26 20:28:00 - [618]
 

What you do, not what you say.

Who you ban, not what you do.

Where will it end?

I don't know. Certainly not Perpetuum though, that really wasn't for me.

Astar Kreth
Posted - 2011.06.26 20:29:00 - [619]
 

Edited by: Astar Kreth on 26/06/2011 20:31:53
I would like to thank CCP Zulu for this message, and emphasize that I fully understand why you too would be frustrated with the response from the EVE community.

Obviously you at CCP have put in months of work into Incarna, and to have to have it thrown back in your face is clearly difficult.

I think I mirror the majority of the community when I say that All people want is to make sure that AUR can be used to enable people to come into the game, spend a few hundred dollars and suddenly have the same skills/ships/mods that some of the older members (with my account being an '08 activation I do not personally fit this group) have had to work years and years to obtain. I was personally involved in the protest in Amarr, but hope for a ceasefire soon, there is no sense in us fighting as we all want the same result. A great game with internet spaceships for us to enjoy

Golden Bullets only seek to destabilize the game, There is nothing quite like seeing a 100million + SP toon in action, and the reason for this is that they are rare. Lets keep these grandfathers of the game as just that.

I would like to commend the EVE community for grouping together and expressing their opinions during what has been a difficult week, and I heartily support the extraordinary CSM meeting, as even before the meeting is held, the step itself does a great amount to emphasize the degree of respect CCP has for the online community.

Looking forward to the ongoing debate, and Respect to both CCP and the Community.

Long Live Eve Online.

Best regards

Astar Kreth

RougeOperator
Posted - 2011.06.26 20:29:00 - [620]
 

Originally by: Svennig
Ok guys, it's time to give this meeting a chance. I was there in the last thread complaining. I was there in the protests. And now I'm joining the call for a ceasefire here. I'm happy with the answer to MT presented, I'm willing to take them at their word and hope that they move forward with the CSM in good faith.

It's time to give diplomacy a chance people, and to take them at their word on MT. Please, please don't manufacture problems based on wording or some other *******s, it makes us look like a bunch of ******s and it's going to make them disinclined to listen to our concerns.

Right now, Jaw jaw > war war



The meeting is 3 days to late mate. And only stalls this out longer.

Its been made pretty freaking clear what we want. They need to roll back on everything. Then have a meeting and decide where to go from there.

And actually mean what they say.

Nukleanis
Falcon Advanced Industries
Posted - 2011.06.26 20:30:00 - [621]
 

Quote:
...we need to strengthen the deep mutual trust and respect that's been so unique and descriptive of our relationship.

Is going back on your word regarding MT a sign that there is any semblance of these noble ideals? Is the following an indicator of a deep mutual trust and respect?
Quote:
I can tell you that this is one of the moments where we look at what our players do and less of what they say.

Probably not.

Helena Russell Makanen
Posted - 2011.06.26 20:31:00 - [622]
 

Originally by: The Mittani
This blog is a promising but much-delayed first step. The events of the past few days have left me feeling skeptical of the entire situation, since the May Summit itself went peachy, yet then these issues with the NeX prices cropped up, undiscussed, out of nowhere - not to mention the Hilmar mail, Greed is Good, et cetera.

Mark me down on the 'actions not words' end of the scale - In Reykjavik, I'm going to want to see exactly how the NeX prices were decided upon, how they were drafted, and which suits where were behind this nonsense - and who chose to not mention this to the CSM. Perhaps most important is understanding the degree of financial motivation behind this, and why it came from CCP like a bolt from the blue, and thus how likely similar bolts from the blue might be in the future.

I don't have much more to say beyond what I've already said on Eve Radio and in my CEO Update, which is crossposted on Kugu and Failheap.

We'll see how Reykjavik goes.


So as you say CCP in face-to-face meetings have discounted what the CSM says, doesn't communicate on controversial topics, and basically does what they want or lies to you.

So why rush out there as part of a delay tactic where the same will occur?

You are being used. Do it on skype and save us all a lot of time. They can do all those things on voice, it doesn't have to be in person.

I think we are all sick of CCP delay tactics - why assist in another?

Zalyz S'venfirion
Posted - 2011.06.26 20:32:00 - [623]
 

Originally by: Sha Dar
NOW you want to listen to the CSM...

LOL


Originally by: Ghoest
Ill watch what you do not what you say.


These. Rolling Eyes

Dr Geiger
Posted - 2011.06.26 20:32:00 - [624]
 

Can I ask please, who out of the CSM are able to attend this meeting ?

Vincentus
Posted - 2011.06.26 20:33:00 - [625]
 

Originally by: Gedid Tava
As someone who knows the horizon broadening power of a devil's advocate discussion, I have little doubt that the leaked doc is not a reflection of CCP's actual practices.

However...

My wife did bring up a fairly amusing point. This game is full of ruthless, metagaming, scheming, cruel, backstabbing, greedy bastards who will steal every last dime from their "friends" the very second the payout is large enough. Now that CCP is being accused of milking cash, even if it is for vanity only items, people flip out about what a heart wrenching betrayal it is.

If nothing else, they're learning from their player base. The wife doesn't play but she summed it up perfectly. "Welcome to EVE."


So we are allowed to pod devs now?

Kile Kitmoore
Posted - 2011.06.26 20:33:00 - [626]
 

Now was that so hard?

Thank you for taking a step in the right direction.

Call me crazy but I am going to assume "gold ammo" is MT for game changing advantage, and not literally specialized ammo sold for Aurum.

I hope your meeting with CSM is productive.

Syri Taneka
The Perfect Storm
Posted - 2011.06.26 20:34:00 - [627]
 

Originally by: Ghoest
Ill watch what you do not what you say.


QFT

Katra Novac
Posted - 2011.06.26 20:34:00 - [628]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Ranger 1

Nope, just smarter and more mature than you.

Don't you have a rage quit to attend to...




While you're out white knighting on your horse, consider at one time MTs were never on the table.


At one point, neither were PLEX.

My point is that the release of the edited, out of context issue of Fearless was little more than an attention grab.

Sensationalistic journalism at it's finest.

Yet instead of cynically realizing this as the EVE community should have easily been capable of doing, it instead allowed the forum trolls to whip people into a mindless frenzy over it.

A LARGE number of people did not fall for it, and tried to say so. However they were repeatedly drown out by those self same trolls.

Believe what you want.

Like everyone else here, I will be waiting to see what CCP does and pay more attention to that than what they say. An attitude that apparently CCP heartily endorses. Laughing

I just refuse to allow doctored documents and half baked theories to interfere with my judgement.







That's all very well and good, but CCP were at fault there they should has issued statements at the time. They were quick enough to correct the Sony rumour.

Plus they've still avoided the main question, will non-vanity items be for sale in the MT shop?

Mena Arzi
Posted - 2011.06.26 20:35:00 - [629]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: Mena Arzi
What about PLEX for Remaps? We know that was one of the original ideas, not exactly gamebreaking but still non-vanity MT.

That was part of the original MT discussions with CSM5, the upshot of which was that MT should be vanity-only, and that PLEX for Remaps -- which was a plan that was floated to us, but never formally planned AFAIK -- was over the line.

Thus, no PLEX for Remaps.


Ok, but how did it end up on SiSi then?

Cashcow Golden Goose
Posted - 2011.06.26 20:35:00 - [630]
 

Just so we're clear, if we don't like what you do, we have to send 10 people on a free trip to Iceland?

It makes absolutely no sense.


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