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Mzee Machado
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:40:00 - [451]
 

Edited by: Mzee Machado on 26/06/2011 19:44:24
This is unsatisfactory. However, let's be creative and try to save your wallets and our need for immersion? How about creating a virtual banking system? I love to fly my spaceship, but I also recognize your need to make money.

The EVE community is as complex as can be and needs some mechanism to control the economy better than today. The influx of PLEX is a liability, while AUR does not solve your need for cash. If the prices had been a fraction of what they currently are, it could work as a temporary fix. Either AUR goes or PLEX does. Either way, we need an in-game bank to create larger economic possibilities both in-game and RL.

For those of you having read Charles Stross Halting state an in-game bank has its problems as well, but it is a brilliant concept. We, as players, are interested in investing real money into virtual property and security. Even for game-changing objects if they are a plausible part of a storyline, e.g. a prototype blueprint with DUST514 tech or weapons or whatever.

It is necessary to balance the vanity of RL money and in-game skills. A great pilot is never going to submit to a noob. A great industrialist will always have much influence. Provided their experience and time invested is honoured, no problem with seeing a looser buy a battleship and rent a pilot to bring a floating corpse back. Skillpoint sale? No. Jove spaceships for AUR? No.

Those investing countless of hours and ultimately making you successful must be safe in their knowledge that they can keep their sandbox evolving to a real virtual society according to their interest. EVE is similar to the outside in its need for a better economic framework. The similarity end where I in EVE can shoot someone in the face. I do not do that RL.

How are we podpilots going to be able to trade and interact with other MMOs in-game when there are different rules and not the least differently sized economies in each and everyone? We produce stuff and can offer great logistic support. Our services include superior firepower. How can CCP earn money utilizing our skills? How can we walk in-station and planetside without bleeding out of our ears or having our experience of immersion shattered?

A bank system can lower the imbalance between different economies. A bank earn money by their services and are powerful instruments in world economy. Since we live in a virtual society, our banks can be better than real life banks even. Not sc***ing us over at every opportunity I mean, risking our assets on hair-brained schemes. There are probably players that are ready to step up and assume the roles of managers. With guns of course.

Let me invest in development. I don't need much back, just some interest on my investment and the security that my assets are safe. Heck, I'd pay real money for in-station services offering cyborg implants so that I could walk normal while we wait for the grunts.

Cyriel Longinus
Caldari
XERCORE
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:40:00 - [452]
 



Originally by: CCP Zulu
I see it's clear we need to strengthen the deep mutual trust and respect that's been so unique and descriptive of our relationship.



Thanks you, those are a good choice of words. Sincere. Human.
Happy to be making steps in a familiar direction ... forward, to make EVE and CCP's strategy a mutually rewarding success.


Katra Novac
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:40:00 - [453]
 

We already know non-vanity items must have been on the table for the MT shop otherwise they could have just gave an answer almost as quickly as the Sony saga.

So is it a 'U' turn or are they seeking a compromise with the CSMs.

I'm not convinced either.

I'll stay unsubscribed, see what the CSM fiasco dredges up.

Molten Black
Omber Company
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:40:00 - [454]
 

You let Eve burn for 3 days and stood back and watched the flames when you could have posted that blog in the first 5 minutes.

Something is wrong here.

Hikuri Ssuvienne
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:40:00 - [455]
 

Thanks for the blog Zulu. As a new player who just recently discovered this unique game, I've followed the developments after Incarna with some considerable alarm. From my chair some of the vitriol slung at CCP has been excessive and out of line, while some has been fair and well thought out. I think much of this could have been avoided with a faster responce, but at least bridges are being mended so everyone can get back to internet spaceships.

Personally I've got no issues with MT for vanity items, but it's good to see that non-vanity items are not on the cards. I'll look forward to hearing how the CSM meeting goes.

Republica Winder
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:40:00 - [456]
 

CCP, you don't need to bother with the time or expense of meeting with the CSM in Iceland.

Nothing you can do is going to placate the masses OR save the tens of thousands of subscribers you have already lost until you understand the following and react accordingly:

WE DO NOT WANT RMT IN EVE.


Doctor Deals
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:41:00 - [457]
 

GOLD IS A COLOR AND AN ELEMENT!


GOLD DOES NOT MEAN MICROTRANSACTIONS!

SAYING "GOLD" ONLY DILUTES YOUR RESPONSE

Xander Hunt
Minmatar
Dead Rats Tell No Tales
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:41:00 - [458]
 

Originally by: Malka Badi'a

EVE Community. I am disappointed in how little faith you had in a company that some of you have been with for seven years, and how you allowed your groupthink to overpower your ability to use formal logic and deduction regarding what may be opinion and what may be debate. But, you have my undying respect for showing passion, and love, for the game that many of us hold dear.



Its RW corporate propaganda that we're seeing here, not Zulu or Zinfadel (or however you spell his name) that are doing this DIRECTLY. (I admit, I posted that I wanted Zinfadel fired, but only because I hate the kind of job he's in, and how he tries to execute it so well. Its not about him, its about how things have changed in the past 6 months alone) I have little to no faith in *ANY* company (including the one I work for) that has investors, as investors want nothing more than more money. With all seriousness, they'll push the boundries to get monies in, and when it dries up, walk away knowing they made a profit. Its taken a few years for CCP to get to the point where investors are ... instigating and trying to enforce ideas to get more RW monies out of the system, be it due to borrowing for dev'n of Dust or whatever. Monetary-Investors suck the life out of a game (or anything) faster than a shop-vac sucks up water. Investors have passion for money, not passion for the game and its mechanics.

The only investors I have any patience for are the people who invest non-monetary ideals into something, such as passion, wisdom, intelligence, time, ideas, love, hate, interest. Its no wonder Jita and Amarr are on fire as we, the players, are so invested in this game, we don't want to see the mechanics change. We, the players, are investors as well, CCP. Money may make things work, but we're what makes all of this worth while, not money.

Iden Secundus
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:42:00 - [459]
 

Why should we believe you?
You did lie us.

Your task is to lie us.
So you are lying us

Trust? How? Why?

Ranita Drell
Intaki Liberation Front
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:42:00 - [460]
 

Edited by: Ranita Drell on 26/06/2011 19:43:17
The right response from CSM would be:

"We will meet with CCP to discuss concerns regarding Incarna only after CCP publicly recommits to a stand against selling non-vanity items via microtransactions. Everything else may be negotiable; this is not."

XIRUSPHERE
Gallente
Deadly Intent.
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:43:00 - [461]
 

We will watch what you do not what you say. You did not commit to no mt for advantage when the question is of the most dire importance. You think you are buying time but we will ensure our actions continue.

We are eve
We do not forgive
We do not forget
Expect us

Vincentus
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:43:00 - [462]
 

Edited by: Vincentus on 26/06/2011 19:44:39
Well, I'm glad you guys finally made a serious commitment to communicate with your customers, and from the tone of your blog I feel like you people have finally realized you have a serious problem on your hands. I am worried about the wording of the gold ammo sentence, as it seems to me that it is obvious that it would have been a lot easier and clearer if you had just said non-vanity items. Inviting the CSM gives me hope however, and I sincerely hope you listen to them. It's in your own interest...

I have 8 days of subscription left, so you have until then to convince me of your good intentions. I will cease protesting and posting here, but please realize I'm not going to make an effort to get the message through again, and that if you screw up again I'm gone without saying another word, and you can add another 3 accounts to the 4000 that are gone and not going to return. Best of luck, I really hope all of this works out.Neutral

Iurnan Mileghere
Singularity Foundation
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:43:00 - [463]
 

Good first step. Not the end, nor even the beginning of the end. Hopefully the end of the beginning.

Or summat. Anyway, it's good enough for now, though we'll watch the CSM emergency summit results with great interest.

lceman
Gallente
FinFleet
Raiden.
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:43:00 - [464]
 

Edited by: lceman on 26/06/2011 19:46:11
what worries me is the shift in ccp policy, and their enapt to confirm what they will be selling in the shop or give word of what they will not be selling, as long time fan (2003) and player i'm worried they will one day start selling premium bpo's in their shop, why not it will make them money why not a 10 run zealot blueprint me 0 pe 0 or maybe originals, there is truely nothing that will prevent them for selling anything in that shop for a price.

i spent close to 9 years in this game and have nice collection of t2 bpo's. this has been through hard work, not cause i'm rich in real life, cause face it i'm not cause i've spent 9 years playing this maybe "soon to be stupid **** game".



Republica Winder
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:43:00 - [465]
 

Originally by: Mzee Machado
This is unsatisfactory. However, let's be creative and try to save your wallets and our need for immersion? How about creating a virtual banking system? I love to fly my spaceship, but I also recognize the need for

The EVE community is as complex as can be and needs some mechanism to control the economy better than today. The influx of PLEX is a liability, while AUR does not solve your need for cash. If the prices had been a fraction of what they currently are, it could work as a temporary fix. Either AUR goes or PLEX does. Either way, we need an in-game bank to create larger economic possibilities both in-game and RL.

For those of you having read Charles Stross Halting state an in-game bank has its problems as well, but it is a brilliant concept. We, as players, are interested in investing real money into virtual property and security. Even for game-changing objects if they are a plausible part of a storyline, e.g. a prototype blueprint with DUST514 tech or weapons or whatever.

It is necessary to balance the vanity of RL money and in-game skills. A great pilot is never going to submit to a noob. A great industrialist will always have much influence. Provided their experience and time invested is honoured, no problem with seeing a looser buy a battleship and rent a pilot to bring a floating corpse back. Skillpoint sale? No. Jove spaceships for AUR? No.

Those investing countless of hours and ultimately making you successful must be safe in their knowledge that they can keep their sandbox evolving to a real virtual society according to their interest. EVE is similar to the outside in its need for a better economic framework. The similarity end where I in EVE can shoot someone in the face. I do not do that RL.

How are we podpilots going to be able to trade and interact with other MMOs in-game when there are different rules and not the least differently sized economies in each and everyone? We produce stuff and can offer great logistic support. Our services include superior firepower. How can CCP earn money utilizing our skills? How can we walk in-station and planetside without bleeding out of our ears or having our experience of immersion shattered?

A bank system can lower the imbalance between different economies. A bank earn money by their services and are powerful instruments in world economy. Since we live in a virtual society, our banks can be better than real life banks even. Not sc***ing us over at every opportunity I mean, risking our assets on hair-brained schemes. There are probably players that are ready to step up and assume the roles of managers. With guns of course.

Let me invest in development. I don't need much back, just some interest on my investment and the security that my assets are safe. Heck, I'd pay real money for in-station services offering cyborg implants so that I could walk normal while we wait for the grunts.


That's why the CSM shouldn't agree to go. They are being USED AS PROPAGANDA TOOLS.
If they don't realize that they are unfit to serve as our representatives anyway.

That's your choice, CSM, refuse to go, or better yet, resign as a group, or be used as props and pawns. Don't fool yourselves into believing you are going to go to Iceland and achieve anything except looking like fools.

Yoshitaka Moromuo
Distant Light Galactic
Apocalypse Now.
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:43:00 - [466]
 

Originally by: Republica Winder
Originally by: GATORAN
Originally by: Republica Winder
CCP ANGRY AT US for breach of trust? ANGRY AT US?!!

WTF!

Angry that they GOT CAUGHT more like it.

This is yet another waste of time. CCP is clearly been playing for time during this whole affair, hoping that it'd blow over. So now they are calling the CSM to Iceland for an emergency meeting. This same CSM that CCP hasn't listened to YET regarding RMT.

CCP, you may reach a deal with the CSM. But they don't speak for us.

The reason the reaction has been so vitriolic is that WE REFUSE TO ACCEPT RMT IN EVE.

Until CCP acknowledges that reality and either removes the RMT or else bans everyone who protests or speaks up, things will continue as they are. Until all our subs expire that is.



They aren't angry at us, they're angry at the breach of trust that happened from the inside


The only breach of trust on the inside to be angry at are those who decided to ramrod RMT down our throats.

As for whomever leaked all this stuff to us, they are to be applauded as heroic.

If the leaks hadn't happened CCP would have been able to take their ill gotten gains (our continued subscriptions) and done their pay-to-win plans behind the curtain and sprung it on us unawares. Now we know what their plans are, the cat is out of the bag.

No. These leaks are anything but heroic, particularly the leak of shareholders' information. The shareholders' information leak alone can cause great damage to the corporation, and was most likely leaked with clear, malicious intent.

So, no.

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:43:00 - [467]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
We already knew that the points list in the Fearless edition were put in purposefully to provoke discussion and reinforce where the implementation of MT could go wrong if greed overtook reason.


And a discussion they got...

Addrake
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:44:00 - [468]
 

I'll watch what you do not what you say.

That being said, this will get me out of Jita for a week. I'm not opposed to micro-transactions.. I'm not even opposed to sim city in space so long as my internet:spaceships gameplay doesn't become FUBAR. P2W is the issue I'm concerned with so when you speak with the CSM you need to make it very clear that it will NEVER HAPPEN IN THE FUTURE.

Di Mulle
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:44:00 - [469]
 

Apology noted, not accepted yet.

I, as a lot of others, I guess, remain highly pessimistic and suspicious.

Oh, and I really wonder how things will go with NDA and endless re-redacting of meeting minutes ? We need to expect results published sometime in September, or this time it will be different ?

LIOZTH
Caldari
Divide By Zero
Dark Phoenix Rising.
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:44:00 - [470]
 

Edited by: LIOZTH on 26/06/2011 19:44:13
Originally by: Xia Long
thanks for the "apologies" Zulu (not joking) but
i really think waiting another week to discuss the topic "live" with the CSM is not the soultion
CSM =/= EVE comunity, they represent just a small portion of it



This is so true and bears repetition, well put Xia, the discussion needs to also center around the community *not just the CSM*. I think some sort of virtual town meeting is warranted.

Zondrail
Formic Hive
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:45:00 - [471]
 

Originally by: Ghoest
Ill watch what you do not what you say.

Hyperforce99
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:45:00 - [472]
 

People that say the micro transactions have to be removed completely are not going to get their way..
The system is in the game, CCP is making money off of it, now its here its not going to be removed.

HOWEVER!

The biggest concern of the EVE community has always been that Microtransactions would influence gameplay with ship and item sales for AUR. THAT worry is now (unlike before) adressed by a dev. By telling us NO GOLDEN AMMO WILL EVER BE SOLD, CCP has made that promise. Further details of course are still pending.

And be honest

Selling fluff items or custom ship paints should be fine as long as the prices are reasonable.
(And not as generally expensive as it is right now.)


Now... ("knacks knuckles") about those optional captains quarters and hangar views YARRRR!!

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:45:00 - [473]
 

A quick note: if you think I'm defending CCP below, think again. I am just telling it to you as I see it.

Originally by: Kith Kanann
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow

When CSM was asked for input on the devblog, I was concerned about this wording. Here is the alternate wording that I suggested, which I believe expresses the essence of CCP Zulu's intent:

However, I want to make one thing absolutely clear. Despite the impression given by the "point-counterpoint" debate that appeared in the Fearless newsletter, there have never at any time been any plans to sell "gold ammo" or any other game-affecting goods for Aurum.


And yet it didn't make it into the blog...

I made a suggestion, Zulu liked his wording better. It is his devblog, and it should be in his words.

I have the benefit of having access to the CSM/CCP Skype channel and internal forums, where this issue has been debated extensively over the last few days. The above is my current impression of Zulu's position; nothing more, and nothing less.

If my impression changes, I will of course communicate that to the players.

Originally by: Joseph Vacher
Mind you, the CSM have some agreement about not disclosing what's said at meetings, no?

Historically, CCP redaction of CSM summit minutes reports has been minor, except in some cases where effectively entire meetings had to be off the record (such as DUST/EVE strategy in the May Summit -- minutes out soon I hope, btw).

For example, in the current May minutes draft, the edits are almost non-existent, mostly removal of exact numbers.

Needless to say, in the unlikely event that CCP does get heavy-handed, we shall explicitly call them out for that.

Originally by: Seline Okaski
As to the CSM visit, I am not sure how to take this. Asking our representatives, the very same ones that you have disregarded, ignored and failed to inform/consult in the past to break away from real life commitments with under a weeks notice seems to be a last ditch effort to divert our attention.

When the batphone rings, you pick it up.

That said, if this meeting turns out to be a farce, we will let you know in no uncertain terms. If I am forced to endure those $^&#& IcelandAir seats for no good reason, there will be hell to pay.

With regard to speed of reporting, I will try and get reports out every day detailing general progress, and we will try and get a full report out ASAP. We know this is time-sensitive.

Originally by: Saving Face
In that case, he lied again because we know there have been plans for non-vanity purchases.

Numerous CCP folks at different levels have told me that Fearless is deliberately provocative, and is not official company policy. Of course, I have not seen any other issues, so I can't say for sure. Perhaps someone should leak some copies to me... Twisted Evil

Cancel Align NOW
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:45:00 - [474]
 

Quote:
Due to the volatility of the topic we want to refrain from any further comments on this matter until after meeting with the CSM.


By that time eve will be Dead.

GATORAN
x13
Raiden.
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:45:00 - [475]
 

Edited by: GATORAN on 26/06/2011 19:46:30
Originally by: Republica Winder
Originally by: GATORAN
Originally by: Republica Winder
CCP ANGRY AT US for breach of trust? ANGRY AT US?!!

WTF!

Angry that they GOT CAUGHT more like it.

This is yet another waste of time. CCP is clearly been playing for time during this whole affair, hoping that it'd blow over. So now they are calling the CSM to Iceland for an emergency meeting. This same CSM that CCP hasn't listened to YET regarding RMT.

CCP, you may reach a deal with the CSM. But they don't speak for us.

The reason the reaction has been so vitriolic is that WE REFUSE TO ACCEPT RMT IN EVE.

Until CCP acknowledges that reality and either removes the RMT or else bans everyone who protests or speaks up, things will continue as they are. Until all our subs expire that is.



They aren't angry at us, they're angry at the breach of trust that happened from the inside


The only breach of trust on the inside to be angry at are those who decided to ramrod RMT down our throats.

As for whomever leaked all this stuff to us, they are to be applauded as heroic.

If the leaks hadn't happened CCP would have been able to take their ill gotten gains (our continued subscriptions) and done their pay-to-win plans behind the curtain and sprung it on us unawares. Now we know what their plans are, the cat is out of the bag.



I'm not going to get into too many details about how I don't agree with the entire premise of what you're saying, and I certainly don't think the leaks were heroic given the personal information that was revealed along with it.
However I shall just point out that the document, as pointed out in many different cases, was taken out of context, and that it was a thought experiment.
As such its not so much about MT, as it is about non-vanity items..and really, if you don't believe what they say when they tell you it was out of context and that it wasn't in the plans...why would you believe them that moment they say the words you want them to say "We will never implement non-vanity MT". Then what?
Will you be just as skeptical?
Will you make extraordinary measures to underline this and get CCP to do the same?
If you get them to do that, then will believe them?
Where is your limit? And once found..what makes that limit even more believable than the other ones? What makes what they say more acknowledgeable than what Zulu has said already just now?

What truth do you really want?

edith prickley
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:46:00 - [476]
 

'... there are no and never have been plans to sell "gold ammo" for Aurum.'

This sounds good, and presumably we can interpret "gold ammo" to represent a broader class of game advantage-related transactions. I'm somewhat more concerned by what you have not said: If it is only vanity transactions that are on the table, I don't see the need for a CSM meeting.

I still find the weasel-word evasion of the opinions expressed in "Fearless" to be a little bit unconvincing. Does Soundwave believe what he was writing or not? He could resolve many concerns in the community by coming up with a clear statement. If he does not agree with his own "out of context" arguments in the "Fearless" article, I'd like to hear that, and what his genuine beliefs are. I understand that article was never meant to be read by the general public. But it has, and should be addressed in more specific terms than we've seen so far. If CCP really is true to its "Fearless" motto, you should have the courage of your convictions.

Further, the editor referred to EVE as a "golden goose." This leaves the distinct impression that EVE players are simply being taken advantage of. Was that among the deliberately provocative statements taken out of context, or a widely held attitude within CCP? Since the point has come up, it would be interesting to have a clearer idea of what proportion of an EVE player's subscription is going towards funding non-EVE projects. Further, what risks are there to EVE if these other projects fail? I'm less "Fearless" about these ventures than CCP, and suspect that I'd be throwing good money after bad by continuing to fund your company. I understand that these questions are difficult to address specifically without revealing numbers which you'd prefer to keep private, but some reassurance would be helpful to a community who do not appreciate being anyone's golden goose.

In any case, regardless of the context of the "Fearless" pamphlet, I'm left with a very suspicious feeling towards CCP and its motives. Hilmar has made clear in his email that his only concern is with "metrics" which will demonstrate whether CCP is taking the right direction. I'd caution you to be careful about these metrics -- you are losing the trust of a loyal community, and by the time that shows up in the numbers, it may be too late.

Given the state of management of this game over the last several months, I've lost most of my confidence in CCP as caretaker of EVE and in their general direction. I'll no longer be paying for this product and/or service.

Garricky
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:46:00 - [477]
 

Originally by: Debbie DoesDallas
This is a good start. The fact they are flying the CSM out on short notice means they are taking this issue seriously.

Time for folks to dial it down and see what comes out of the CSM Summit.


It's a smokescreen/delay tactic, otherwise they would talk to the CSM by conference call and get us info fast - not a week or more delay to fly them out there for no reason. DELAY is the goal. To say they need to hear the complaints from a CSM's mouth, I find insulting as a player.

Katra Novac
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:46:00 - [478]
 

Originally by: Republica Winder
CCP, you don't need to bother with the time or expense of meeting with the CSM in Iceland.

Nothing you can do is going to placate the masses OR save the tens of thousands of subscribers you have already lost until you understand the following and react accordingly:

WE DO NOT WANT RMT IN EVE.





No bridges are being mended yet as far I can see, it'll take more than just a few carefully chosen words. Plus I'm not buying the being upset part in his blog anyway.

knanid volatar
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:46:00 - [479]
 

Originally by: lceman
what worries me is the shift in ccp policy, and their enapt to confirm what they will be selling in the shop or not, or give word of what they will not be selling, as long time fan (2003) and player i'm worried they will one day start selling premium bpo's in their shop, why not it will make them money why not a 10 run zealot blueprint me 0 pe 0 or maybe originals, there is truely nothing that will prevent them for selling anything in that shop for a price.

i spent close to 9 years in this hame and have nice collection of t2 bpo's. this has been through hard work, not cause i'm rich in real life, cause face it i'm not cause i've spent 9 years playing this maybe "soon to be stupid **** game".



2003 -> 2011, is 8 years not 9.

Eclorc
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:47:00 - [480]
 

Originally by: Akara Ito
Originally by: CCP Fallout
Read Zulu's newest dev blog here

DE
RU


So you're gonna talk to the CSM, tell them to **** off, tell them they cant speak about that because of NDA, and then tell the community "CSM agreed" ?



^^this.

Vague words that actually mean no commitment, nor directly answer the question that was given, I spy "wiggle-room".

Stalling for time hoping for pitchforks to go.

Of course the CSM will get slapped with NDA or at the very least will be delayed in releasing information somehow, and CCP will forge ahead with non-vanity items - anyone who believes otherwise at this point is delusional.

CCP are spearheading microtransactions in game for every other game that will come afterward.
Do you honestly want this to be the future of gaming?


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