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Akiriy Azuriko
Gallente
Demon Theory
Tragedy.
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:32:00 - [421]
 

guys imagine what could have happened if that fearless didn't get leaked, that's what frightens me.

we'd have to deal with a nasty surprise patches of fail. you cheacky ccp ****ers, i'll never trust anything from devs again

Harcun Fellon
Gallente
Ichee Industries
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:32:00 - [422]
 

Nothing but a PR stunt. I'm out, biomass in 9 hrs.

GATORAN
x13
Raiden.
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:33:00 - [423]
 

Originally by: Republica Winder
CCP ANGRY AT US for breach of trust? ANGRY AT US?!!

WTF!

Angry that they GOT CAUGHT more like it.

This is yet another waste of time. CCP is clearly been playing for time during this whole affair, hoping that it'd blow over. So now they are calling the CSM to Iceland for an emergency meeting. This same CSM that CCP hasn't listened to YET regarding RMT.

CCP, you may reach a deal with the CSM. But they don't speak for us.

The reason the reaction has been so vitriolic is that WE REFUSE TO ACCEPT RMT IN EVE.

Until CCP acknowledges that reality and either removes the RMT or else bans everyone who protests or speaks up, things will continue as they are. Until all our subs expire that is.



They aren't angry at us, they're angry at the breach of trust that happened from the inside

Auric Aurumfinger
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:33:00 - [424]
 

Who was the PR that let you post that other knee deep in jerkiness blog post?

You guys consult marketing geniuses (no pun intended) to create a Habbo Hotel (http://www.habbo.com/) in Space, but lack the communication skills to talk to people in a proper manner. Bullying the player base will not get you customers.

I consider acceptable in the Gold Shop:

1. Paint Jobs for Ships.
2. Decals and pictures to the Hulls (like WWII bomber crews used to).
3. Expanding the Captain's Quarters with other modules, like a bathroom with a pool.
4. Selling Captain's Quarters furniture, lighting, etc.
5. Selling minigames, like pimball machines to be in a fun room.
6. Clothing in general.
7. Hats, bandanas, eye patches for pirates arrrr.
8. A Parrot. You know... for pirates shoulders.
9. Pets, to WiS beside you and mourn when you get shot in the head by a Merc.

People will buy this crap. All the games that do that have a revenue coming exactly from selling these virtual goods.

Would be much better if Parrots and Pets were genetically engineered beings to be a product in the market, but oh well, you need to make a living.

Good luck to the CSM.

Lemming Lass
Minmatar
Lemmings Online
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:33:00 - [425]
 

Edited by: Lemming Lass on 26/06/2011 19:33:37
(facepalm)

The CSM are needed here? FFS, if reading the forums doesn't help you "define and address the real underlying concerns", then I don't know if anything will. Sounds like a stall tactic more than an honest outreach.


* People want an intermediate step between space and Incarna...namely the old dock view. Should be easy as pie.

* Deal with system resource issues involved with Incarna.

* People generally don't want MT, but if there is MT, clearly promise that it will not affect game mechanics, that there is no "pay to win" element. Vanity/cosmetic items only.

*The turret animations are neat, but the icons are not clear and distinct enough to be useful as icons.

*Communicate better.


There, I saved you the time and expense of involving the CSM. But I wasted my time because all these things have been stated hundreds of times already.

You're welcome.

Rion Deteisan
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:33:00 - [426]
 

Edited by: Rion Deteisan on 26/06/2011 19:34:50
Edited by: Rion Deteisan on 26/06/2011 19:33:56
Quote:
there are no and never have been plans to sell "gold ammo" for Aurum.



(it was going to be platinum ammo)

OR

(it was only going to be ships)

OR

(Great idea!!.. lets call in CSM to see if we can make plans to do gold ammo too!)

Mag Theron
Open University of Celestial Hardship
Art of War Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:33:00 - [427]
 

Thank you CCP Zulu for your communication on this issue.

While there is certainly much work to be done to rebuild the trust that has been lost over the past few days, I am glad to see CCP moving in what I believe to be a positive direction.

I will await the outcome of your meeting with the CSM with great interest, and I hope to see further positive actions in the days to come.

o7
Mag

Don Aubaris
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:33:00 - [428]
 

Well this goes in the right direction. Although it contains some strange stuff too.

If you can't deduce what your customers want from the 1000's posts on the forums there is something wrong.

And saying there will be no 'gold' ammo is way to vague. So we gonna have purple ones with yellow dots? No usable items is what people wonna hear. But apparantly CCP is still not prepared to say that. I'm kinda scared for the CSM's. They probably dangle them above a volcano to make them see the wisdom of selling usuable stuff.

The policy of CCP should be clear : the use of PLEX is completely optional and shall never give an advantage that is not reachable by hard work and ISK. (and buying PLEX with ISK is also always optional)

But let's hope for the best.

Xzan
The Reformed
Bondage Patrol
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:34:00 - [429]
 

I have to ask what possessed CCP Zulu to write the inflammatory dev blog in the first place? If he felt incensed and frustrated by the situation he could have simply said that they were taking note of our concerns and would meet to discuss the issues draft a proper response in the coming week to address our concerns not flame about $1000 pants etc..

Then again Devs are human too....

Anyway actions speak louder than blogs and we'll have to see what happens in the mean time. Perhaps people should cool off on protests and threadnaughts until CCP meet the CSM and let the answers and actions of CCP dictate our response.

Atsair Raholan
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:35:00 - [430]
 

Edited by: Atsair Raholan on 26/06/2011 19:36:11
Originally by: Daelorn
Personally I don't want the aurum store at all. Nothing.


If it remains entirely a cosmetic thing I don't see what the problem is at all. The possibility of the whole "pay to win" thing is troubling, but if the future shows it to be a store full of only vanity items, who really cares? This whole mentality that a business shouldn't look for new opportunities to generate revenue is just beyond absurd.

Aineko Macx
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:35:00 - [431]
 

Until the next Hilmar Email is leaked we can't decide if the motto still is "Stay The Course".

The other unanswered question is of course: How do you feel about the fact that your main investor has known russian mafia connections?

DarkTemplarCrimsonWolf
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:35:00 - [432]
 

Edited by: DarkTemplarCrimsonWolf on 26/06/2011 19:37:05
Keep the protests rolling, unsubbing and demanding answers, just because they said gold ammo isn't in does not mean gold ships, modules, implants, etc are ruled out. Until Mittani says they aren't going non-vanity do not under any circumstance take the latest dev blog at face value (be it good or bad in your eyes), it is too vague and slightly uninformative as to the degree at which "non-vanity" items will not be included in NeX. Don't get me wrong I want to believe but to paraphrase Hilmar's e-mail (which he did not even touch upon, though he did say leaks not leak, which lends credence to this e-mail being authentic) "watch what they do not what they say" because in the end to debate a closed topic is pointless and yet CCP did just that. Actions CCP, not words. Mittani hate to break it to ya man but you're gonna have to take lead here, for null sec, low sec and high sec, make CSM be what it's meant to be and not just a rubber stamper.

Uther Istavel
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:36:00 - [433]
 

Originally by: Ghoest
Ill watch what you do not what you say.


+1 Action speaks louder than words.

Because lets be honest people, the **** storm thats currently in effect isnt going away any time soon, so what were they going to say?

'yes, youre completely right'

that would be career and corporate suicide, 'no' is the only answer they could give at this stage, no matter what their intentions.

WE'll just need to wait and see. A good start would be complete removal of AUR.

Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:36:00 - [434]
 

Originally by: Leah Pendragon
The utter refusal to say 'There will be no non-vanity MT' is deeply disturbing.


This.



And if CCP are so strapped for cash, why not just increase subscription costs slightly, like from 15 euro per month to 17 euro per month, and a corresponding increase in ETC prices? It's been 15 for over 4 years now. I can live with a small amount of inflation.

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:36:00 - [435]
 

Nicely put apology.. the description of you emotions definitely made it sound sincire. I still wouldn't want to hang out with you if you wear $1000 japanese jeans though.... or anyone else with that set of values.

All I personally want to be confident about is that GAME design, Game Balance, and the vast majority of development resources are focussed on balancing play with the expecations of those that do not make MTs on top of their subscription

EVE has always been extrodinary at having a diverse offering of ships and roles so that someone at any level of the game can play a real role to any battle or skirmish. Thats not to say that any ship or any pilot with greater cost will win 1v1

With all the work done on Incarna, I'm a bit po'd that you guys couldn't find the time to slightly adjust one or two variables on ships that you have admitted in the "every quesiton" thread. Even if you don't have time to do a comprehensive revue, you could make the problem less pronounced.. lower damage of fighter bombers a bit, LOWER SPEED of dramiel.. 5 10 or 20 km per sec.. even lowering it 1 km per second would show some movement in the right direction.... if you can't get it right make it a little less bad till you can get it right. Similar issues with the Tengu

Why do i bring those up? I was always of the impression that the development team had the best interests of combat dynamics at heart but the newsletter , the priorities that were put into place int the release , and other between the lines suggestions in your's and others responses (even if apologized for) really makes me question if selling more MT or $>plex>isk is why you like to have a ship like the dramiel which makes the far cheaper interceptor obsolete.

I trusted the love for the competitive aspects of the game and the importance those have in attracting players as the top priority of the team. But now its in doubt.. dispell that doubt and the MTs are fine... for me even it they somewhat enhance the opposition as long as there are strategic ways to dampen the effect of those advantages

Novon Toll
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:36:00 - [436]
 

Edited by: Novon Toll on 26/06/2011 19:36:42
Nice punt CCP, but it's hard to believe your motives are pure with the replies and communication we've received so far. I wont repeat everyone's comments except to say:

Don't wear your $1000 jeans for the CSM meeting as I think there will be some a$$ to chewed.

Hathius Scalpcleaver
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:37:00 - [437]
 

Originally by: GATORAN
Originally by: Cadela Fria
I guess I will be the first to say that this have temporarily made me go into "standby" mode instead of "protest" mode.

But one thing is certain, like many others, I want clear unambiguous answers with no room for any sort of alternate interpretation.
I guess I will also be the first to say I think it is entirely unhelpful that we insist on conspiracies about Sony, and what will "really" happen at the CSM meeting.
As the author of "God is not great", Christopher Hitchens, once said: We as a species are a pattern seeking animal, a good thing about us, and we prefer a conspiracy theory to no theory at all, a bad thing about us

Trying to suit the facts to fit the theory instead of trying to fit the theory to the facts, is wrong, and I won't do it.


I second this motion


I'm inclined to agree with this very much.

Khanid Voltar
Night's Dawn Investment Fund
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:37:00 - [438]
 

Hey Zulu, and those you represent

First of all, thanks for taking the time to respond again, on what is presumably your day off.

While the decision to wait another week to respond fully is somewhat depressing, the fact that it is so that the CSM can be flown out there is, in my eyes, indicative of the fact that the entire situation is being treated seriously by management within CCP.

There are as many opinions as there are players in this game, and I hope that CCP as a company (not just the forum moderators) will reflect fully on the thousands of opinions expressed on these forums, rather than sit on it for another week until the CSM gets there.

I hope that between the player base, the CSM, and CCP employees (and management) we can come to a mutually agreeable & beneficial solution.

Look forward to hearing more soon.

KV o7


Margin D'Martian
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:37:00 - [439]
 

Well, Hilmar put it best.

"I can tell you that this is one of the moments where we look at what our devs do and less of what they say."

Pavel Bidermann
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:37:00 - [440]
 

Really? That took days to write? In that time the forums here and around the web exploded, the store has become an industry joke, CCP's releases have been publicly viewed as insane, The relationship between CCP, CSM and the players has been badly damaged if not destroyed, rumors of the company being sold circulating on the internet and an exodus to "the next game". CCP's answer is to say nothing for another week? Another company might be trying to address this and put the revolt down, but not CCP. Let it burn! Perhaps they have not heard of this "internet" or these "phones". Some people are even using a thing they call "e-mail". It's a letter, but it uses no paper! Probably just a passing fad though.....

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:38:00 - [441]
 

Originally by: Dark Kano
I wonder if the CSM enjoy being puppets and scapegoats?

MC187
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:38:00 - [442]
 

Edited by: MC187 on 26/06/2011 20:10:00
looks like a carefully crafted blog to me. no wonder it took PR so long.

Quote:
Having cooled off a bit and taken a solemn look at the situation, I see it's clear we need to strengthen the deep mutual trust and respect that's been so unique and descriptive of our relationship. There are certain questions you want answered and there isn't room for more error in our communication on those topics or our perception of the root causes.

Therefore we have asked the CSM to join us in Iceland for an extraordinary meeting June 30th and July 1st to discuss the events of past week, to help us define and address the real underlying concerns, and to assist us in defining and iterating on our virtual goods strategy.

The result of this meeting should be mutual agreement of how virtual goods and services will evolve in EVE. Other issues may be brought up and we urge you to contact the CSM with your comments and concerns so that they may be addressed at this session.


classic delay/diversion tactic. announce an emergency meeting to quell some of the playerbase. no answers to anything directly nor touch other issues at this time

Quote:
However, just to prove the point of the Fearless newsletter and give you a further understanding of what it is then there are no and never have been plans to sell "gold ammo" for Aurum. In Fearless people are arguing a point, which doesn't even have to be their view, they are debating an issue. This is another example of how information out of context is no information at all.


counterquote from page 9 of fearless:
Quote:
CCP is in the process of adopting a virtual sales
model for its game products. While this model has
always been intended for World of Darkness and
DUST 514, you may be wondering how this will
work in EVE Online. Specifically, how will this new
strategy unfold in Incarna?

In short, it’s the same in Incarna
as elsewhere: we give players
the means to buy stuff in addition
to their base subscription, offering
things like new “nano-paints” that
allow one to customize ships while
docked; new articles of virtual
clothing, tattoos, and other avatar
customizations; tokens for customizing
Captain’s Quarters and so
on. Not all virtual purchases will
focus on customization: some will
simply be new items, ammunition,
ships, etc. that can be purchased
outright. The devil, as always, is in
the details.


and followup...

kind of a dumb way to promote discussion, putting things in print like a fact. internal or not. page 7 i understand is the argument for and against. page 9 at face value is worded as factual, the reason for the uproar over play to win stuff. a very good way to incite an unholy rage is it gets leaked. also, i don't see any critical trade secrets in your fearless publication, so why so hush-hush? the community should know what you devs are kicking around the office.

Quote:
Due to the volatility of the topic we want to refrain from any further comments on this matter until after meeting with the CSM.


more like you want a week for things to calm down enough for PR to attempt to make a dent in all the rage and continue to do whatever CCP wants.

Kainulf
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:38:00 - [443]
 

Edited by: Kainulf on 26/06/2011 19:38:47
Let's get this commitment to "no gold-ammo, ever" into the EULA, shall we CSM?


Garrance
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:38:00 - [444]
 

Originally by: Wearfield


CCP!! You already know how we feel, it's all over the internet. Meeting with CSM achieves nothing.


Sure it does, it allows them to give us the silent treatment (he says as much FFS!) for another WEEK or MORE.

As others have said you do not need to fly the damn CSM to iceland and make us wait. If you indeed need to talk to them to understand our issues (despite the hundreds of pages of us telling you) then do it by skype. Or isn't making all of us WAIT of concern? Or is it the POINT?

Republica Winder
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:38:00 - [445]
 

Originally by: GATORAN
Originally by: Republica Winder
CCP ANGRY AT US for breach of trust? ANGRY AT US?!!

WTF!

Angry that they GOT CAUGHT more like it.

This is yet another waste of time. CCP is clearly been playing for time during this whole affair, hoping that it'd blow over. So now they are calling the CSM to Iceland for an emergency meeting. This same CSM that CCP hasn't listened to YET regarding RMT.

CCP, you may reach a deal with the CSM. But they don't speak for us.

The reason the reaction has been so vitriolic is that WE REFUSE TO ACCEPT RMT IN EVE.

Until CCP acknowledges that reality and either removes the RMT or else bans everyone who protests or speaks up, things will continue as they are. Until all our subs expire that is.



They aren't angry at us, they're angry at the breach of trust that happened from the inside


The only breach of trust on the inside to be angry at are those who decided to ramrod RMT down our throats.

As for whomever leaked all this stuff to us, they are to be applauded as heroic.

If the leaks hadn't happened CCP would have been able to take their ill gotten gains (our continued subscriptions) and done their pay-to-win plans behind the curtain and sprung it on us unawares. Now we know what their plans are, the cat is out of the bag.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:38:00 - [446]
 

Originally by: MC187
looks like a carefully crafted blog to me. no wonder it took PR so long.

Quote:
Having cooled off a bit and taken a solemn look at the situation, I see it's clear we need to strengthen the deep mutual trust and respect that's been so unique and descriptive of our relationship. There are certain questions you want answered and there isn't room for more error in our communication on those topics or our perception of the root causes.

Therefore we have asked the CSM to join us in Iceland for an extraordinary meeting June 30th and July 1st to discuss the events of past week, to help us define and address the real underlying concerns, and to assist us in defining and iterating on our virtual goods strategy.

The result of this meeting should be mutual agreement of how virtual goods and services will evolve in EVE. Other issues may be brought up and we urge you to contact the CSM with your comments and concerns so that they may be addressed at this session.


classic delay/diversion tactic. announce an emergency meeting to quell some of the playerbase. no answers to anything directly nor touch other issues at this time.

Quote:
However, just to prove the point of the Fearless newsletter and give you a further understanding of what it is then there are no and never have been plans to sell "gold ammo" for Aurum. In Fearless people are arguing a point, which doesn't even have to be their view, they are debating an issue. This is another example of how information out of context is no information at all.


counterquote from page 9 of fearless:
Quote:
CCP is in the process of adopting a virtual sales
model for its game products. While this model has
always been intended for World of Darkness and
DUST 514, you may be wondering how this will
work in EVE Online. Specifically, how will this new
strategy unfold in Incarna?

In short, it’s the same in Incarna
as elsewhere: we give players
the means to buy stuff in addition
to their base subscription, offering
things like new “nano-paints” that
allow one to customize ships while
docked; new articles of virtual
clothing, tattoos, and other avatar
customizations; tokens for customizing
Captain’s Quarters and so
on. Not all virtual purchases will
focus on customization: some will
simply be new items, ammunition,
ships, etc. that can be purchased
outright. The devil, as always, is in
the details.


so which is it?


Gentlemen, we already knew that Soundwave was requested by CCP to write his article from a Gordon Gekko point of view.

We already knew that the points list in the Fearless edition were put in purposefully to provoke discussion and reinforce where the implementation of MT could go wrong if greed overtook reason.

We already knew that the copy that was originally leaked had been edited, and taken completely out of context.

You simply chose not to hear it.

And yet you keep referring to it as "proof" that they have a plan in place to do so, despite a direct refutation.

You, the EVE Online community, have been massively trolled.

And you couldn't have made it easier.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:39:00 - [447]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 26/06/2011 19:40:38
Originally by: Malka Badi'a
I will continue to post this for those who are so far beyond rationality and intellectual maturity that they couldn't read their way out of the alphabet.
Or you can stop posting it and accept the fact that they have picked a slang term and put it in quotes, which gives them two levels of fudge factor.

Clarity and specificity is what's needed here, and that is not it.

If that is indeed what they mean, then it will be trivial to post and say so in no unclear terms and remove the doubt that some people are having. There is absolutely no reason not to do so.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:39:00 - [448]
 

I have this novel, NEVER heard before question for Zulu:


Will aurum items move beyond non-vanity items?



ALL aurum items and FOREVER?




Kraxalious
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:39:00 - [449]
 

Originally by: Skex Relbore
Originally by: J Kunjeh
Originally by: Metungaawten Liqouragain
As tempers have been flared on both sides it seems, perhaps as a measure of goodwill on your part, perhaps you would consider unbanning any accounts suspended/banned due to 'inflamed tone', and instead issue a warning.



No, bans are bans and should not be rescinded. Those who were banned deserved it...personal attacks on ANYONE should NEVER be allowed on these forums.


Telling someone to "Die in a fire" is the modern equivalent telling someone to **** off it's no more a threat telling someone to go F themselves.

As such unbanning Helicity makes perfect sense. I also think that Liang should be unbanned as well as anyone else who was banned for the leaks.

Doing so would go a long way to diffusing some of the tempers that are running high and would cost CCP nothing.


"Die in a fire" is akin to them telling us "gold ammo"

Akara Ito
Amarr
Kriegsmarinewerft
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:39:00 - [450]
 

Originally by: CCP Fallout
Read Zulu's newest dev blog here

DE
RU


So you're gonna talk to the CSM, tell them to **** off, tell them they cant speak about that because of NDA, and then tell the community "CSM agreed" ?


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