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Tactalan
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:06:00 - [271]
 

Thats a lot better, but since actions speak louder than words, I'll wait before re-subbing.

Dibble Dabble
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:07:00 - [272]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: Ghoest
Ill watch what you do not what you say.

As will the CSM.

Originally by: Innominate
Lies, spin, and equivocation. "Gold ammo" is a catch-all for anything affecting gameplay, and I suspect you're not using it as such here.

I can tell you without fear of contradiction that "Gold ammo" is shorthand for "any non-vanity item".

Originally by: Innominate
"Please stop talking about this."

On the contrary; start talking about it. Make sure that the CSM, your representatives, is absolutely clear about your opinions. I think we are, but there are always nuances.

Originally by: Weaselior
This sentence is a nightmare, please confirm what it means is "there will not be any 'gold ammo', i.e. non-vanity 'micro' transactions".

When CSM was asked for input on the devblog, I was concerned about this wording. Here is the alternate wording that I suggested, which I believe expresses the essence of CCP Zulu's intent:

However, I want to make one thing absolutely clear. Despite the impression given by the "point-counterpoint" debate that appeared in the Fearless newsletter, there have never at any time been any plans to sell "gold ammo" or any other game-affecting goods for Aurum.

Originally by: Buzzmong
I'll EvEmail this as well to the CSM members as I suspect you'll miss this.

Thanks, appreciated. You can also email me directly at trebor-csm@animeigo.com



I really dont trust any in the CSM as most are sponsored by the RMT / Bot alliances. Your just like the rest, your only concerned with your own self interest. Change is good, live with it or quit.

Tsubutai
The Tuskers
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:07:00 - [273]
 

Well, at least you managed to avoid insulting your customers this time round - congratulations!

Won't be resubscribing in the absence of a firm and unambiguous commitment to keeping MT in eve vanity-only.

Groyidd
I Wanna Rock Mining
Coalition of the Unfortunate
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:07:00 - [274]
 

Holy Crap people...give CCP a break. They implemented a change that was supposed to be better for everyone. Anytime you change anything in a game as in-depth as EVE there are bound to people who disagree with the changes. I will admit that the cost of the vanity items are a little ridiculous, but lets face it, they are VANITY items. That means if you want to spend the money or isk for it than not many people have it. The problem with other MMO's and micro transactions is everyone was able to do them therefore minimizing the vanity of the items. I applaud CCP with what they are trying to do. So the Captains quarters isn't what people thought it would be. You know what? There was no engine for having a person walk around before. Baby Steps Folks. Get over yourselves and quit complaining. If one stupid memo is causing this much grief go ahead and leave so the rest of us can play this game in peace.

Kith Kanann
Minmatar
Pator Tech Corp
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:07:00 - [275]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow

Originally by: Weaselior
This sentence is a nightmare, please confirm what it means is "there will not be any 'gold ammo', i.e. non-vanity 'micro' transactions".

When CSM was asked for input on the devblog, I was concerned about this wording. Here is the alternate wording that I suggested, which I believe expresses the essence of CCP Zulu's intent:

However, I want to make one thing absolutely clear. Despite the impression given by the "point-counterpoint" debate that appeared in the Fearless newsletter, there have never at any time been any plans to sell "gold ammo" or any other game-affecting goods for Aurum.




And yet it didn't make it into the blog...

Kyoko Sakoda
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:07:00 - [276]
 

Originally by: Troy LS
Bets that the Sony/CCP deal is announced before the CSM meeting next weekend?

I'll stay unsubbed until next week at the earliest.

Actions, not words.


That was debunked hours ago.

Joseph Vacher
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:07:00 - [277]
 

Not exactly a satisfactory response then, but there's now no point raging until the CSM report back.

Mind you, the CSM have some agreement about not disclosing what's said at meetings, no?

Callidus Dux
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:07:00 - [278]
 

Edited by: Callidus Dux on 27/06/2011 08:46:03
Hello CCP and Mr. Zulu,

your last blog was a little bit disarming, However.. it comes without (m)any answers. You say there will be a meeting with the CSM und the leading group of CCP. THIS gives me the hope, that you will find a way back to the community. But after this meeting ALL people and especially I want a clear statement which way will CCP and EVE go with MT and the NEX store. Please do not bungle this last chance. You have my personal patience, but I can not speak in the name of all people here.

My wishes:

NO faction standing or skillpoints for Cash; ISK or Aurum.

-> NO game mechanics purchasable / buyable

Please give us the old hangar back and make CQ optional.

I will use it. I assure, but I do not need it always. Smile

Good luck with the meeting. I wish you all the best to fully cleare this haples situation. Damit I want back the time when I saw the video of "Permaband" and when I thought: THIS People have the best job and made a good job and the best game ever.

Bring back the good old times: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgvM7av1o1Q

We're CCP! We march on fearlessly!
Excellent is what we strive to be!

If you're going to follow us to the top

HARDEN THE **** UP!


I want to follow. Very Happy
But NOT in every direction. Keep this in mind. Wink

Best regards
Calli

Evalon Fury
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:07:00 - [279]
 

Originally by: Walextheone
A good step forward.
No advantages by aurum is just what I want to hear.

Hopefully the next steps will be in the same direction


Nobody said that... You are making an interpretation of a satatment that does.. not... say... that.....

Theviola Lin
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:07:00 - [280]
 

If this is pretty much all CCP can offer at this time, i kinda expect little results from the meeting. Why call the CSM if you can just give us facts before any sort of meeting? Its not like CCP hasnt allready made decisions on the future of the EvE businessmodel. Why not just inform us in a fearless manner?

Dear CSM members, I hope you just ask for clear awnsers on decisions CCP management has allready made. Dont fall into the trap of negotiating as then CCP can put part of the weight on your shoulders. This is CCP doing anger management by buying time and setting the CSM up as scapegoats. After reading Hilmar's letter the EvE strategy is set in stone; and anger management using the delay tactic is usually bad news.
1 - Ask for facts; dont negotiate anything.
2 - Dont let the CSM become part of the problem.

"What you do; not what you say" actually means "Shut up, it will become clear sooner or later".

Dr Geiger
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:07:00 - [281]
 

Having played this game for nearly 5 years, I can tell you that this is one of the moments where we look at what CCP do and less of what they say.

Leon Razor
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:07:00 - [282]
 

Edited by: Leon Razor on 26/06/2011 19:18:49
Would be nice to know if "gold ammo" is being used as a fun way to refer to non-vanity items, or just "gold ammo" in particular. While I appreciate the attempt at humor, now is not really the time for imprecise language.

Relevant meme.

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:08:00 - [283]
 

CCP ZULU FTW



Told you that he is a good dude.

And he is passionate about EVE too, that's why he vented some steam in his first blog.

Better than some cold guy with no feelings towards EVE, just counting beans.


Now the CSM is better be taken serious!

gargars
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:08:00 - [284]
 

Why on earth do you need to make us wait while you fly the CSM out there. Get on SKYPE - that will save days and days of delay.

In addition don't look at some statements from the CSM to us as a magic band aid. Most people have trust issues with them... especially after the last election.

Alrione
Black Lagoon Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:08:00 - [285]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow

-snip-



Please read this guys post, I imagine this sums up a lot of peoples opinions:

Originally by: Buzzmong
@Trebor Daehdoow, Seleene, Mittens and the rest of the CSM:

When you get to Iceland, state unequivocally that:

1) Doing things outside of the CSM knowing (Nex prices) or completely ignoring the CSM (last dev blog) is a massive no-no and not only undermines the entire point of the CSM, but upsets the playerbase even more.

2) Full removal of the NeX store is the only way to fully go back and make up for this sheer sh*tstorm and restore the trust of the playerbase due to it being the only way to remove shadow of P2W that will now loom over EvE (actions speak louder than words).

3) It should always have been Space->Hanger->(optional) Captains Quarters+WiS, and it needs to be implemented as such due to CCP's own lore. It's especially important due to the performance issues people have been having and the fact the release of CQ is only 25% complete. It's up to CCP to develop features in CQ/WiS that want to make us leave the pods (they are planning on this anyway)

4) Communication needs to be improved massively. The current rules about Dev's not being able to speak their minds needs to be chucked out the window and the rules about not speaking on topics they don't know relaxed so that people can at least put some blue bars and go "I'll find out for you from the proper scrum team".

5) The Playerbase needs concrete information on what CCP's plans are with Incarna and it's expansions, and *needs* to find out what CCP are doing to fix the big problems with the core spaceship game.

I'll EvEmail this as well to the CSM members as I suspect you'll miss this.

Baihuigau
Gallente
Skull Brigade
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:08:00 - [286]
 

I cant believe players are lapping up that devblog, essentially their just buying 4 more days in the hope people give up get tired and stop complaining, theres nothing they cant talk over skype or vent, or even in a conference call, theres no need to fly the csm out, i call bs on this but people are aparently buying it. They are already forgetting they called us golden gooses who wear 1000 dollar pants and the fact that ceo himself gave us a big fu by saying they only care about what you do, not what you say.

Dirk Decibel
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:08:00 - [287]
 

Still no definate "No" on none-vanity items. Still nothing on slashing prices on vanity items to 1/10 of what they are now. Proceeding with letting more accounts expire and circling monuments in game till I see CCP doing that.

Flesh Slurper
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:08:00 - [288]
 

No gold ammo? What about faction standings? The missing faction tower BPC's? Ship fittings? Implants? whole ships? Skill training? and the 1000 other non-vanity ideas you have come up with?

Yeah.. need more time.. thats right. Because you cant just come out and tell us what we don't want to hear. So spin away! Thats your job anyway.

CCFAIL
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:08:00 - [289]
 

Edited by: CCFAIL on 26/06/2011 19:08:14
you better got a reply before this accounts runs out of playtime. because ones its gone - it stays like that.
(thats the 30th)

Seline Okaski
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:08:00 - [290]
 

First, this was a much better dev blog than before. I can understand that emotions were running high on all sides, and I accept the apology for how the communications have failed through this debacle.

As to the meat of the blog, I am still not fully sated. I am hoping that the "no golden ammo" phrase means more than simply no in space usable items. I am hoping that means there will not be "Aurum for respec" or "Aurum for additional fitting slots" as well. There is still some ambiguity in your response, where the one thing we need is clarity. You have broken our trust, CCP, and that means we have to take what you say with a grain (maybe a mountain) of salt. Please make this clear. I am optimistic, but still am not resubbing just yet.

As to the CSM visit, I am not sure how to take this. Asking our representatives, the very same ones that you have disregarded, ignored and failed to inform/consult in the past to break away from real life commitments with under a weeks notice seems to be a last ditch effort to divert our attention. How do we know that ANYTHING from this CSM meeting, which may or may not have the full CSM involved, will actually make a difference when it has not done so before? This is a move based on trust, and you have no currency in that at the moment. If this would have happened before the current events or even if you had listened to people before implementing the current system, we might have enough faith in you to beleive that the CSM disscution would actually mean something.

As of right now, I have had a small modicum of faith restored, but I agree with a lot of the people here. I will be watching what you do and not what you say.

Please live up our expectations, CCP.


Reiisha
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:08:00 - [291]
 

Originally by: CCP Zulu
However, just to prove the point of the Fearless newsletter and give you a further understanding of what it is then there are no and never have been plans to sell "gold ammo" for Aurum.


Given the time it took to write this blog i would have expected Zulu to have added "and there never will be".

Keeping an open mind is all fine and dandy but when something like that breaks the most fundamental and elementary mechanic of EVE (the market) every single employee of CCP should be against any plans whatsoever of bringing ammo/ships/similar into the game via NEX, at any point in time, past, present or future.

Again, given the time it took to write this blog i would have expected Zulu to at least confirm that there will never be any plans for something like that, ever. Right now he eloquently left the door open for something like that to be done anyway, only denying that there have been plans but not saying there will never be any.

Not including those few words shows me that the game designers and producers at EVE seemingly have forgotten what their own game was supposed to be about.

Hiryu Jin
noXCorp
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:08:00 - [292]
 

Originally by: Kithrus
Why does everyone keep expecting worst case?

Long experience.

QwaarJet
Gallente
hirr
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:08:00 - [293]
 

One request, Trebor.

This meeting needs to ditch the NDA and the details of it need to be known as soon as it is done. Delaying it any further than it already is would just make things worse.

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:08:00 - [294]
 

Originally by: Innominate
Edited by: Innominate on 26/06/2011 18:54:32
Quote:
fueled by emotions that had built up due to a breach of trust we at CCP have been experiencing over the past few days.

What.

Quote:

I see it's clear we need to strengthen the deep mutual trust and respect that's been so unique and descriptive of our relationship.


More sarcasm. Nice.

Quote:

However, just to prove the point of the Fearless newsletter and give you a further understanding of what it is then there are no and never have been plans to sell "gold ammo" for Aurum. In Fearless people are arguing a point, which doesn't even have to be their view, they are debating an issue. This is another example of how information out of context is no information at all.



Lies, spin, and equivocation. "Gold ammo" is a catch-all for anything affecting gameplay, and I suspect you're not using it as such here. You're being careful to not answer the primary demans which is for you to disavow all "non-vanity" items. I also don't see any promise that it won't happen in the future.

Quote:

Due to the volatility of the topic we want to refrain from any further comments on this matter until after meeting with the CSM.



"Please stop talking about this."


It's okay, CCP only hits us because they love us.


Yup.

a) How can it be a breach of trust to know what we're paying for? It's not like this is company secrets that will give competitors an upperhand, or technical information that could break the client/servers, etc?

b) "mutual" trust? When it's only CCP that broke that trust, players and CSM have done nothing to deserve "losing trust".

c) and the rest of the blog has zero content.

Katra Novac
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:08:00 - [295]
 

Edited by: Katra Novac on 26/06/2011 19:10:17
I'm not sure it is a win yet, depends what happens with the meeting with the CSMs.


If the situation was over then why meet with the CSMs, plus the CSMs already knew about the Scorpion ship that would have been for sale, so do the CSMs really share the protesters views or at least are capable to represent the protesters interests?


Anyway guess we'll see in time.


Edit, this was actually answering a differnet thread, same topic but of course thread was closed. So it might seem a bit out of context.

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:09:00 - [296]
 

Edited by: The Djego on 26/06/2011 19:11:28
Originally by: Darik Jita
what you do, not what you say


This.

Originally by: CCP Zulu
Due to the volatility of the topic we want to refrain from any further comments on this matter until after meeting with the CSM.


I hope you realize that Communication(or complete lack of it) is one of the main issues that let CCP lose everything it had left at credibility and you now go back to silence? *awesome*

Hugh Hefner
Caldari
Paxton Industries
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:09:00 - [297]
 

Originally by: Ghoest
Ill watch what you do not what you say.

+1

Juan Sezole
The Colonial Forces
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:09:00 - [298]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
CCP Zulu's intent:

However, I want to make one thing absolutely clear. Despite the impression given by the "point-counterpoint" debate that appeared in the Fearless newsletter, there have never at any time been any plans to sell "gold ammo" or any other game-affecting goods for Aurum.



Great, now get ZULU to man the **** up and SAY that and this will all be over, seriously, JUST GET HIM TO SAY THIS IN PLAIN ****ING LANGUAGE, how hard is that?

Of course as CCP LIED OVER MT IN THE FIRST PLACE I seriously doubt anything CCP says to the community will be taken on trust.


LaoTsu Reborn
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:10:00 - [299]
 

Commencing Operation ****storm Shield!

Sona May
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:10:00 - [300]
 

After the blog post:
"what you do, not what you say"

Before the blog post:
"what you haven't denied"


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