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Darkside007
Posted - 2011.06.25 21:38:00 - [1]
 

Should be at least as hard as finding the site itself.

I had to use a Covops with 6 Sister probes to find a lowsec radar site, and it was a Wolf that scanned me down.

Not saying I should be safe, just saying that jacking people in exploration sites shouldn't be easier than actually running those exploration sites - it's why no one except pirates bother with lowsec, leaving that space completely unused. It's easier to screw people over than it is to actually do anything.

Nieusha
Gallente
Life. Universe. Everything.
Clockwork Pineapple
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:45:00 - [2]
 

Well, first you're bad. Terribad. Having to use 6 probes? I only use 4. That is all that is needed. Also you should have been watching local and hitting DSCAN all the time. It's easy enough to switch back and forth between the probe tab and dscan tab.

TLDR: L2PLAY

DeMichael Crimson
Minmatar
Republic University
Posted - 2011.06.26 03:11:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: DeMichael Crimson on 26/06/2011 03:16:47

Originally by: Nieusha
troll post


I have very high exploration skills, scanning implant installed, ship rigged for exploration and use SoE equipment.

CCP has indeed tweaked Exploration again. I have noticed that some of the Gravimetric and Magnetometric sites are extremely tough and impossible to get 100% lock when only using 4 probes.

Also I agree with the OP, it should be tougher to scan down a player's ship which is located in an exploration or mission site. The original idea behind Combat probes was to find war targets hiding in safe spots.

Darkside007
Posted - 2011.06.26 16:23:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Nieusha
Well, first you're bad. Terribad. Having to use 6 probes? I only use 4. That is all that is needed. Also you should have been watching local and hitting DSCAN all the time. It's easy enough to switch back and forth between the probe tab and dscan tab.

TLDR: L2PLAY


1) Clearly you aren't scanning high-value sites in Empire space. Most sites only require 4 probes. The best sites require >4 probes. Part of my problem is that it can take 10-15 minutes to scan down one of these high-value sites with level 4 scanning skills and a covops with sister gear, and some pirate can scan me down in 30 seconds through drones/wrecks with an assault frig.

2) Clearly you aren't scanning sites in Empire space. In 0.0, you can SS and warp around whenever neutrals appear in system, but there are always people in lowsec, docked in station, traveling around, gatecamping in BCs, etc. Part of the reason blue 0.0 is the safest space in Eve is because it's empty. Because pirates can camp in lowsec and run to highsec when there's .01% they could get killed, it's really easy to kill random people in lowsec. Hunting through red 0.0 is mostly a waste of time because, unless you get kills on the edge of red space, intel channels will have everyone dock/log off.

3) Clearly, you aren't scanning in Empire space - smart ship probers will keep their probes outside of dscan, warp in a frigate tackler, and get you with dscan on and active.

4) My problem is less that I got killed. My problem is that I learned why no one bothers with lowsec - it's unbelievably easy for some random pirate to swoop in and jack your site/mission/hidden belt/etc. Why should CCP not make that space easier to actually play the game in? Right now lowsec is almost a PvE-free zone.

5) I know, I know. I'm suggesting making life harder for pirate trolls. You have it unbelievebly easy right now, and I know trolls hate to make actual effort.

TLDR: If you can't be bothered to read and think, don't post. :)

Loraine Gess
Posted - 2011.06.26 16:45:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Darkside007

some pirate can scan me down in 30 seconds through drones/wrecks with an assault frig.


3) Clearly, you aren't scanning in Empire space - smart ship probers will keep their probes outside of dscan, warp in a frigate tackler, and get you with dscan on and active.

t's unbelievably easy for some random pirate to swoop in and jack your site/mission/hidden belt/etc.

Right now lowsec is almost a PvE-free zone.




>don't know the first thing about scanning ships
>don't know the first thing about low-sec
>spout mouth off anyway

I like your style! Please, continue. It is entertaining how wrong you are.

Llambda
Space Llama Industries
Posted - 2011.06.26 16:55:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Llambda on 26/06/2011 16:55:55
Dear internet-spaceships forum,

I recently went into low-sec and failed to protect myself.

This is obviously the fault of the other player, the game, the devs, or some other entity than myself.

Please revise.

Signed,

OP

Darkside007
Posted - 2011.06.26 17:07:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Llambda
Edited by: Llambda on 26/06/2011 16:55:55
Dear internet-spaceships forum,

I recently went into low-sec and failed to protect myself.

This is obviously the fault of the other player, the game, the devs, or some other entity than myself.

Please revise.

Signed,

OP


Dear internet spaceships forum,

I gank people in lowsec dumb enough to do things other than gank people in lowsec. Please make sure ganking continues to be easier than everything else because I can't do PvP when the other players are prepared for PvP.

signed.



I can do it too.

Morae
Posted - 2011.06.26 17:23:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Darkside007
Originally by: Llambda
Edited by: Llambda on 26/06/2011 16:55:55
Dear internet-spaceships forum,

I recently went into low-sec and failed to protect myself.

This is obviously the fault of the other player, the game, the devs, or some other entity than myself.

Please revise.

Signed,

OP


Dear internet spaceships forum,

I gank people in lowsec dumb enough to do things other than gank people in lowsec. Please make sure ganking continues to be easier than everything else because I can't do PvP when the other players are prepared for PvP.

signed.



I can do it too.


Who goes into low sec without being prepared for pvp?

Darkside007
Posted - 2011.06.26 20:19:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Morae


Who goes into low sec without being prepared for pvp?


Only stupid people (like me) go into lowsec for reasons other than PvP. That's my problem.

CCP attempted to put higher-value material in lowsec to encourage people to venture out of high-sec and risk player pirates to get that material, but the personal forces involved have turned it into a Gank-only zone. Even "PvP" fleets will flee from other "PvP" unless it's something like a 5:1 advantage.

Llambda
Space Llama Industries
Posted - 2011.06.26 21:58:00 - [10]
 

There is a difference between going into lowsec for PvP and going into lowsec prepared for PvP. You went into lowsec for PvE, and you also were not prepared for PvP.

You're right about one thing, though: It's definitely your problem.

Darkside007
Posted - 2011.06.26 22:12:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Llambda
There is a difference between going into lowsec for PvP and going into lowsec prepared for PvP. You went into lowsec for PvE, and you also were not prepared for PvP.

You're right about one thing, though: It's definitely your problem.


But of the problem is that there is no functional difference between being prepared for and going for pvp.

Unless of course, you want to explain the functional difference.

Mister Agreeable
Posted - 2011.06.26 22:20:00 - [12]
 

Afraid of a Wolf - don't go to a forest.

Quinc4623
Posted - 2011.06.26 23:51:00 - [13]
 

This debate is an old as sand.

Yes, there are precautions against player pirates, the OP probably wasn't enacting any.

However even those precautions won't make you 100% safe. Keep running around Low-Sec and eventually somebody will corner you, and they'll out gun you.

One isn't required to fit strictly for PVE or PVP, someone focused on PVE could conceivably fight off an attacker, say BS vs that wolf? But chances are that you won't beat off the pirate, especially if it's an organized gang as if often the case.

Surviving Low-Sec is perfectly possible, but difficult. Low-Sec precautions are better than getting killed, but even better? Staying in Hi-Sec! Sure you could think up a string on emasculating insults, but really it's just practical. Meanwhile there are greater benefits, but they're not that much greater.

The problem is that dealing with these risks isn't worth it to many people except for the pirates themselves of course. Thus lolsec as it is sometimes called isn't a very large part of the game, contrary to developer wishes.

Llambda
Space Llama Industries
Posted - 2011.06.27 17:42:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Darkside007
Originally by: Llambda
There is a difference between going into lowsec for PvP and going into lowsec prepared for PvP. You went into lowsec for PvE, and you also were not prepared for PvP.

You're right about one thing, though: It's definitely your problem.


But of the problem is that there is no functional difference between being prepared for and going for pvp.

Unless of course, you want to explain the functional difference.


Sure there is.

Going to low sec FOR PvP implies that you're fitting for PvP and looking to pewpew other people.

Going to low sec PREPARED FOR PvP implies that you are going there for something else - hauling, exploration, complexes, missions, whatever - but with the expectation that you may bump into someone else who is in lowsec FOR pvp and will have to handle yourself accordingly. This may include keeping an eye on local, adjusting your fitting, frequent use of the dscanner, bringing friends, etc.

I routinely go into low sec for exploration and I am always, at the very, very least, ready to run away, safe, cloak, or otherwise evade someone who is in low sec FOR pvp.


Nuela
Posted - 2011.06.27 18:32:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Nuela on 27/06/2011 18:40:20
Originally by: Quinc4623
This debate is an old as sand.

Yes, there are precautions against player pirates, the OP probably wasn't enacting any.

However even those precautions won't make you 100% safe. Keep running around Low-Sec and eventually somebody will corner you, and they'll out gun you.

One isn't required to fit strictly for PVE or PVP, someone focused on PVE could conceivably fight off an attacker, say BS vs that wolf? But chances are that you won't beat off the pirate, especially if it's an organized gang as if often the case.

Surviving Low-Sec is perfectly possible, but difficult. Low-Sec precautions are better than getting killed, but even better? Staying in Hi-Sec! Sure you could think up a string on emasculating insults, but really it's just practical. Meanwhile there are greater benefits, but they're not that much greater.

The problem is that dealing with these risks isn't worth it to many people except for the pirates themselves of course. Thus lolsec as it is sometimes called isn't a very large part of the game, contrary to developer wishes.


Agreed with the above except I think it might be a little safer than he says...though you probably will get popped eventually.

I spent about 2 months doing PvE in losec. Not lvl 5's but 4's mostly. It is possible. All in all it is about as easy/hard to do as missioning in Empire while under a wardec. Yes, they can scan you down but usually local is sparse and you get to know the 'locals' which ones SEEM bengn and ones that are after your guts. If someone strays in local you go on alert. If they stay you REALLY go on alert. Not that hard and I didn't lose a ship. Can be a pain getting alts into position so that you can look for possible gate camps when you go between agent and mission system...but if you lose em they are just throwaway alts so no biggie.

Taking all the risks into account…it really isn’t all that bad in lowsec.

The problem is, though, IS IT WORTH IT? I decided no. You can make more in lowsec than in highsec…but not that much more and maybe some will decide it is worth it. However, it is much more tedious than highsec where you can fly around fat dumb and happy.

Now, exploration is where lowsec shines. Exploration in lowsec is much better, IMO, than highesec. However, since exploration does not pay as well as highsec mission running, that is more of a hobby.

Daokao
Posted - 2011.06.27 18:47:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Daokao on 27/06/2011 18:47:28
The issue is that it is relatively easy to scan and warp to players and even if you're watching for probes, it means you can't make use of low-sec's benefits (as you're constantly leaving mission grounds and getting interrupted). You might as well be in nulsec if you're in lowsec.

While you're PVEing, you might be able to take on one ship, if that opponent is a "grade" below yours - but seldom two or more, which is often what you find in low sec.

The issue I see, is that having a speedy scrammer/webber is too easy. And the means of preventing your jump from being scrammed are not plentiful enough. Those "warp core stabilizers" are garbage and do nothing against two people scramming you. Fitting those on your ship to begin with is a pain as you give up low slots and you're just as likely to die before you can warp off anyway. But when everything else is true, there's really no way to defend yourself against gangs in lowsec, let alone make a profit in lowsec. At least nulsec pays extremely well and deters some of the more obnoxious roaming gangs from venturing in (it's much easier for lone players to sneak into nulsec and find a living there than it is for small gangs to avoid gatecamps intact).

Thus, with all that said, I think low-sec could use a little balancing. That or there should be a few more passive/active means of escaping gangs as a solo PVE'er.

Richard C Hoagland
Posted - 2011.06.27 19:53:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Darkside007
Should be at least as hard as finding the site itself.

I had to use a Covops with 6 Sister probes to find a lowsec radar site, and it was a Wolf that scanned me down.

Not saying I should be safe, just saying that jacking people in exploration sites shouldn't be easier than actually running those exploration sites - it's why no one except pirates bother with lowsec, leaving that space completely unused. It's easier to screw people over than it is to actually do anything.


I think you're correct that there is a fundamental imbalance in the way that finding exploration sites works, versus finding people who are in exploration sites. Would changing this make low sec more populated? Perhaps, if only because it would reduce the risk in lowsec exploration. But even a little risk will turn away most highsec dwellers, I figure.

With that said, I wouldn't hold my breath for any of this to get changed. And with that being the case, all you can do is remember the rules of lowsec, and best of luck to ya.

Professor Villinghopper
Posted - 2011.06.27 20:13:00 - [18]
 

A wolf can fit an expanded probe launcher and a real fit?

FloppieTheBanjoClown
Posted - 2011.06.27 21:32:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Darkside007
1) Clearly you aren't scanning high-value sites in Empire space. Most sites only require 4 probes. The best sites require >4 probes. Part of my problem is that it can take 10-15 minutes to scan down one of these high-value sites with level 4 scanning skills and a covops with sister gear, and some pirate can scan me down in 30 seconds through drones/wrecks with an assault frig.


You can't scan down wrecks. A serious explorer would know this. And if you're launching drones while running an exploration site, you're flying the wrong ship.

Also, it doesn't take me two minutes to scan down the toughest grav site in lowsec. At most, 4 scans, using 7 probes. Either you're doing it wrong, or you're lying about your skill level.

Originally by: Darkside007
2) [whine about how hard lowsec life is]

Then go to highsec, or nullsec, or set up a PVP fit that you can explore in.

Originally by: Darkside007
3) Clearly, you aren't scanning in Empire space - smart ship probers will keep their probes outside of dscan, warp in a frigate tackler, and get you with dscan on and active.


D-scan is...what? 14 AU? I forget the exact distance. You *cannot* lock a ship with probes without them showing up on d-scan. Now I'm thinking you're just trolling. Not a bad troll, I give it 7/10.

Originally by: Darkside007
4) My problem is less that I got killed. My problem is that I learned why no one bothers with lowsec - it's unbelievably easy for some random pirate to swoop in and jack your site/mission/hidden belt/etc. Why should CCP not make that space easier to actually play the game in? Right now lowsec is almost a PvE-free zone.


This is why I love lowsec. Lots of good stuff to be had if you know how to not get ganked.

FloppieTheBanjoClown
Posted - 2011.06.27 21:37:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Daokao
Thus, with all that said, I think low-sec could use a little balancing. That or there should be a few more passive/active means of escaping gangs as a solo PVE'er.

So basically, you want there to be more ways for you to get out when you are outgunned, out numbered, and caught off guard.

You want to know how to not get caught? Use d-scan. Keep yourself aligned to safe points. Pack a cloak so you can cloak up as soon as you land at a SS. Trash your safes and make new ones regularly if you frequent systems. There are a lot of ways to survive PvE in lowsec. I do it all the time...but then I learned my lessons in w-space before I spent much time out in low.

Darkside007
Posted - 2011.07.01 08:03:00 - [21]
 

One of my biggest problems in discussions is that I get so wrapped up in the things that other people bring up that I forget to clarify the point I was trying to make. Just logged back on and remembered. Herp derp.

Let's say I am 1337 n1nja and can escape anything

1) I scan down a site that has a very small sig radius and is quite valuable after 15-20 minutes.

2) I get a ship that can run the site (hacking or salvage) and begin to run the site

3) PvP gang scans down my ships/drones/whatever in less than 2 minutes

4) They warp in, I warp out. They run the site, which empties it, or they move on, after which it despawns.

That's really the crux of my problem. Not "I wanna be safe" but "Safe PvPers can swoop in and destroy my site with a lot less effort than it took me to find it."

Llambda
Space Llama Industries
Posted - 2011.07.01 11:40:00 - [22]
 

Quote:
1) I scan down a site that has a very small sig radius and is quite valuable after 15-20 minutes.

2) I get a ship that can run the site (hacking or salvage) and begin to run the site

3) PvP gang scans down my ships/drones/whatever in less than 2 minutes

4) They warp in, I warp out. They run the site, which empties it, or they move on, after which it despawns.


And this is clearly the fault of the game, because you could never possibly run the sites in a ship that is difficult to scan down.Rolling Eyes

Leetha Layne
Posted - 2011.07.01 15:58:00 - [23]
 

Once you get your probes out, cloak..

Pharos Pharos
Posted - 2011.07.01 17:27:00 - [24]
 

It's pretty simple - watch Dscan, if probes are out, leave the site. In lowsec it's ridiculously easy to tell when you're being hunted, and if you leave the site/cloak up they'll have to work just as hard as you did to find it.

Of course smart pirates scan out sites, then leave them, so they can warp back to them without ever having to drop probes, preferably after you've already done most of the work for them.

In that case you've really gotta be on your toes - but try it from the other side sometime, I call it aggressive exploration and it can be pretty fun.

Darkside007
Posted - 2011.07.02 01:22:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Llambda
Quote:
1) I scan down a site that has a very small sig radius and is quite valuable after 15-20 minutes.

2) I get a ship that can run the site (hacking or salvage) and begin to run the site

3) PvP gang scans down my ships/drones/whatever in less than 2 minutes

4) They warp in, I warp out. They run the site, which empties it, or they move on, after which it despawns.


And this is clearly the fault of the game, because you could never possibly run the sites in a ship that is difficult to scan down.Rolling Eyes


I was a Gallente drone pilot before I got into exploration. My primary DPS is drones, and apparently drones and drones boats have massive sig hits.

Assuming I have an infinite number of SP, what ships should be used in lowsec exploration, outside of T3 cruisers?

Darkside007
Posted - 2011.07.02 01:40:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Darkside007 on 02/07/2011 01:43:24
Originally by: Pharos Pharos
It's pretty simple - watch Dscan, if probes are out, leave the site. In lowsec it's ridiculously easy to tell when you're being hunted, and if you leave the site/cloak up they'll have to work just as hard as you did to find it.



Originally by: Leetha Layne
Once you get your probes out, cloak..


Ok, I'm gonna try to explain it simpler - warping off after the site is started will cause it to despawn, so if I start a hack on the first can, see probes on the D-scan and warp off, I lose the entire site.

Gonna repeat it to be clear.

If the site is started and then all players exit, it despawns.

So:

If I'm hypervigilant and warp off whenever I see combat probes, I stand to lose multiple sites, perhaps even most of the high-value ones, because of the ease of scanning down ships compared to high-value sites.

If I'm not vigilant I may complete a few more sites, but stand to lose more ships because of the ease of scanning down ships compared to high-value sites.

I don't actually have a problem using high-value sites as PvP bait, since it's as hard to find a site as it is as hard to... find a site.


The best solution I thought of was a modifier to sig radius (obviously using the recently-established floor for sig hits) so that ships in a mission/encounter/exploration site are more difficult to find than elsewhere.

And not locking-out drone pilots from doing exploration without crosstraining another racial weapon. That'd be nice :P

DeMichael Crimson
Minmatar
Republic University
Posted - 2011.07.02 02:25:00 - [27]
 

Ships within a Deadspace area were supposed to have a lower signature and thus tougher to scan down. Maybe it's intentional but due to bad programming in the game mechanics plus all the bugs and changes CCP has done, it's just the opposite.

No reason to do exploration in low sec due to the current game mechanics.

High security exploration can make you some good isk. Mainly running the Radar sites as soon as you find em. The only time I go into low security due to exploration is to complete high security expeditions. I'll have a cloak and Nano-structure module fitted which allows me to align and go into warp very quickly as well as hide. With a couple of safe spots set up and being cloaked while keeping an eye on local for an hour or two, PvP players will usually give up on you and you can complete the expedition without being bothered.

Kaptain Kruncher
Posted - 2011.07.02 06:30:00 - [28]
 

-I have never used 6 probes or 5 probes to scan any site. Even with level 4 skills and no implants- I have never NOT been able to bag a site. You might want to check that- many people have stated the same.

-I love the risk of exploration in low and null sec. I have been ganked many times, I hate losing my ship because I wasn't paying attention- but that's what this game is about- risk management.

- If you stay in low or null long enough- you will intuitively learn how to deal with the types of players and their styles. Exploration in those areas is a completely different game. You have to be able to walk away from those sites without regret. There are ways to keep sites from despawning- but I won't tell you- you gots to learn yourself.

- While some people are yanking your chain- most have tried to tell you their experience- you may not like the answers, but you don't have to be a **** about it.

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2011.07.02 07:48:00 - [29]
 

If you want to be as hard to scan down as your site you will have to bite the bullet and train T3 Cruisers but not just any you have to go Caldair or gtfo.

Never use drones. The drones mwd will give you away faster then anything. I to am a Gallent drone pilot and dont have much love or sp's in missils.

I dont go to low sec after they changed the scaning way back when ever that was.

So lets reveiw this.

1.) Dont go to low sec.

2.) Bite the bullet and train T3 Caldair. Go to doctor to fix your tendones from clicking Dscan every 5 sec.

3.) Fig out like every other high sec or null sec pilot that low sec is only good for pvp and move on.

Now dont get mad at me I did not make low sec what it is today. I even use to run missions in low sec and lose a few mission boats here and there but not anymore myself.

Were all just saying we have already cryed. CCP drop stick gets head from low sec pirats and so it's not going to get fixed.



5nipe
Posted - 2011.07.02 09:28:00 - [30]
 

Low sec exploration has it's own cons and pros.
If you go to low sec to run radars or magneto it means you not experienced enough for low-sec and deserve to die at the first gate. The current ISK/Time/RISK for those sites are not worth run them at all unless you do them for fun or as "want to try once". I guess, CCP can't (or don't want to) just increase value of radars and magneto sites in low without adjusting 0.0 sites drop value as well.

Therefore, radars can provide good and steady income. Especially if you just want to go to low sec and taste the "salt".
You don't need expensive ship or uber skills for it. It can be done easily on alt with just a week of training.

The real ISKs in low sec in DED 4/10 and 6/10. With a bit of effort you can run them quiet comfortable.





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