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Mattio11
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.25 07:18:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Mattio11 on 27/06/2011 01:31:49
Edited by: Mattio11 on 25/06/2011 07:59:16
Edited by: Mattio11 on 25/06/2011 07:44:42
I've just spent the last few hours reading thread after thread, post after post, and there are a few things I've noticed that have caused me some concern.

I felt it necessary to point out to people that it is important not to mistake speculation for fact, and also to be aware that there are clever people in these forums who will find some ways of manipulating information and making you see it how they want you to see it.

What's worse is that some people have gone so far as to make you vote in a situation where the poll was rigged from the beginning - the vote does not offer the required options available for selection for it to be counted as a fair vote (the whole thing is biased and manipulative - the person who created the votes really does not care whether you say yes or no, as both of these options are alternatives to what the OP doesn't want - micro-transactions). If your voting poll is in fact fair then I am not referring to yours.

I say let the facts be heard and let people make up their own minds; WITHOUT the deceiving & manipulation.

Let trustworthy information that isn't biased and hasn't been manipulated be available. I will try to keep this thread updated and add your input to the 2nd post when I receive it - references and ways of verifying your claims appreciated.


Disclaimer: I do have my own opinions however I will do my best to be unbiased whilst posting in this thread (despite that you may have seen me rage in other threads).
----------------------------

Thank you to Noriko for this: CCP Zulu Blog - 2011.06.24Very Happy

**edit** NEW **edit**

Originally by: Marak Mocam
You are missing 2 facts - in order of occurrence:

- Fact: CCP said "vanity only"
- Fact: The first "store" type item to be put on the table - "Plex for Remaps". A FUNCTIONAL change.

It was removed due to player attitude problems with it. For it to be brought forth at all required senior management to approve, etc.

Now put those in with the letter and the rest of it... What you end up with is "we will slip them in" - "ignore what the users say and watch what they do".

The only way to get a message across when the CEO says they shouldn't listen and discuss is in some form of action.

What you are seeing is a natural extension of "words don't work anymore". When that happens, all you have left is actions and that goes in 2 directions: Exodus and rioting.


I would like to thank people for their constructive responses (including replies to my posts in other threads). I accept that we must do more than just use words - however will still not think it's cool to be just plain rude/nasty/dis-respectful/deceptive/manipulative like other people have been.

Also, I have a feeling, after reading so many posts from other players, that CCP won't be removing the Vanity Items as they've worked so hard on it etc. and many players are happily using it.

I do believe however they will be doing something about the Captain's Quarters and I've also read somewhere that they were already considering adding a ship-spinning feature before this debacle even began.

cheers

**/edit**

Mattio11
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.25 07:22:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Mattio11 on 27/06/2011 10:55:08


edit: I have added 2 new entries

FACTS:

- CCP has introduced micro-transactions into the game.

- CCP plans to introduce more.

- The items available thus far are Vanity items only - they do not enhance character abilities or give players any kind of advantage**

(for those who may have difficulties grasping the English language I will let you know that these vanity items are essentially 'fashion accessories' for your avatar)

- Vanity items have no 'direct' effect on you as a player

- CCP has stated that they will not be introducing any character enhancing items or ways in which players will be able to purchase some form of advantage (aside from trading plex for isk of course, and I guess you could consider attribute remaps too).

- CCP is a company, and like all companies need to make money in order to survive and fund further expansion/projects - it has been quoted by many business experts that companies need to expand in order to survive (this is general knowledge for anyone who's completed a business degree in recent years).

- many of the game developers within CCP work long and hard hours to provide us with this game world that we all play - and the expansions are FREE!

- it is CCP's goal to make EVE the ultimate sci-fi experience

Recently added
- It has been mentioned that CCP want to charge for 50+ fittings

NEW!
- Journals/articles are often biased and will twist and manipulate information making you think the way they want you to think - be careful not to fall for this, do your research and make up your own mind!


(if i've missed anything then let me know)


**Apparently there is a re-map option and this is seen by some players as giving a character an advantage




Speculation and Opinions (not fact):

- Many players fear that ccp will not keep this promise and that this introduction of micro-transactions is the first step towards a system where character enhancing and advantage/superior items will be introduced.

- Many players are accusing ccp as being selfish and greedy and that they ignore player's needs

- Game developers are generally on quite low pay considering the hours they work; and many players believe that CCP is deserving of more sources of income if they can get it

- Extra income sourced from micro-transactions will either go to the well deserving game developers and/or will go towards funding projects so that CCP may achieve their goal of the 'ultimate sci-fi experience'


Possible 'indirect' effects of micro-transactions and Vanity items:

- the CCP CEO and head-staff will be able to purchase luxury items such as hot/fancy sports cars and have outrageous items like self-flushing, heated toilets and diamond encrusted chandeliers hanging from their office ceilings.

- Players might get jealous that their character's rivals can afford to have cool t-shirts and fancy monocles for their avatar

- CCP game developers who're on less than impressive pay might actually get the pay they deserve for all their hard work

- CCP will use the extra income to fund more projects and create more awesome games for us to play.. and/or improve existing ones

Noriko Mai
Posted - 2011.06.25 07:46:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Noriko Mai on 25/06/2011 07:49:04
Thanks for adressing this issue.
I'm so bugged of this ****sstorms due to "insert trivial issue".

If you don't like this f***ing Monocole then don't buy it!
If you want it then play EvE, make the money and buy it, but please shut the f**k up.

BTW: CCP Zulu Blog - 2011.06.24

Mattio11
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:05:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Mattio11 on 25/06/2011 08:05:53
Don't forget to support this thread (if you do in fact support it - check the box where it says "Check here if you want to give your support to the idea/discussion going on" which is found under the Preview check box).


cheers Very Happy

Habaticus
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:54:00 - [5]
 

Hate to burst your bubble guys, but there are some real problems betwwen the community and company. Hilmar's email sums up his thoughts about the community.

Swynet
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.06.25 11:57:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Mattio11
FACTS:

- CCP has introduced micro-transactions into the game.




I just stopped right here and had a nice lol irl how players base or at least the winners can be so hypocrites.

PLEX IS MICRO TRANSACTION GIVING YOU AND ADVANTAGE IN GAME OVER SOME ONE NOT USING PLEX -HELLO? TURN YOUR BRAINS ON!

While this plex has served all the multiboxing macro and bot users until now to play the game for free, what do you think it will happen if over 50% of the available plex in the market just goes right in aurum?

I'm telling what it will happen, you'll see a lot more subs pay with real money. That's what's getting mad all those whiners, have to pay to use something.

Mattio11
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.25 13:27:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Mattio11 on 25/06/2011 13:34:28
Originally by: Habaticus
Hate to burst your bubble guys, but there are some real problems betwwen the community and company. Hilmar's email sums up his thoughts about the community.


can you provide a link to this email? That's what this thread is for...


Originally by: Swynet
Originally by: Mattio11
FACTS:

- CCP has introduced micro-transactions into the game.




I just stopped right here and had a nice lol irl how players base or at least the winners can be so hypocrites.

PLEX IS MICRO TRANSACTION GIVING YOU AND ADVANTAGE IN GAME OVER SOME ONE NOT USING PLEX -HELLO? TURN YOUR BRAINS ON!

Everyone knows this... people are upset about CCP possibly adding more micro-transactions and the possibility (speculation) that this will lead to more player advantage items etc.

Originally by: Swynet

While this plex has served all the multiboxing macro and bot users until now to play the game for free, what do you think it will happen if over 50% of the available plex in the market just goes right in aurum?

I'm telling what it will happen, you'll see a lot more subs pay with real money. That's what's getting mad all those whiners, have to pay to use something.


You make some fair points and it makes sense; however you stopped reading the rest of the post and that is why you fail.. this is not a thread about that. It's supposed to be a use for players to gain legitimate, unbiased information so they can make up their own minds without their decisions being hindered by others.

If you have something useful to add then please post it and I will add it to the my posts at the top.

Spikeflach
The Drake Project
The Dominion Empire
Posted - 2011.06.25 20:39:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Spikeflach on 25/06/2011 20:40:34
I couldn't really decide if it was worth my time and effort responding to any of the hundreds of posts people are putting up on the forums. Mainly I just like to play eve and am satisfied with everything I am able to do in the game.

I just wanted to respond to where you talk about the votes and polls.

If there is one thing that I learned in my Government class, its that people groups and television stations can be highly biased.

If you take the republican and democrat idea, the republicans won't be looking at things that have a high democratic bias and democrats won't want to be looking at stuff with high republican bias.

I would have to say that with all this going on, you are looking at just one group of people responding to those votes and polls, while the other group of people, me being one of them, doesn't really even bother to "vote" or "take a poll" as its not worth the effort.

I would be interested, though, to see what the groups of people on the other end of the spectrum really have to say, and what kind of support there would be.

So I am supporting this topic on the grounds of a good healthy discussion.

Arias Dren
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:04:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Arias Dren on 25/06/2011 22:04:17
Originally by: Mattio11
Edited by: Mattio11 on 25/06/2011 13:34:28
Originally by: Habaticus
Hate to burst your bubble guys, but there are some real problems betwwen the community and company. Hilmar's email sums up his thoughts about the community.


can you provide a link to this email? That's what this thread is for...





http://www.evenews24.com/


Everything you need.

Pirokobo
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:12:00 - [10]
 


Jarod Leercap
Posted - 2011.06.26 02:41:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Mattio11
can you provide a link to this email? That's what this thread is for...


I'd warn others to consider before posting the link if they had it; I went looking for it earlier and found links to threads that had been locked--apparently for viewing as well as posting.

I'd hate for someone to incur unanticipated discipline in an effort to be helpful.

Mattio11
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.26 04:25:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Arias Dren
http://www.evenews24.com/
Everything you need.


Thank you for providing a link to perhaps the major source of all the rage.

I have been there and read it. It's media/journalism - if you've ever studied/practiced/learned anything about journalism, you'll know that you can't simply TRUST everything you read as it is often biased.

Media/Journalism you'd think would be all about getting to the truth and letting the public know all the secrets that massive corporations and governments don't want you to know. The sad and unfortunate truth however is that the media is just as greedy as everyone else and will publish anything to get a story. And will spin it and twist it to their will.

Many media firms will even take payments from organisations in return for good exposure for their products.

Did you know that something like 90% of all media in the US is owned by one man? (don't quote me on this I'm not sure what the figure is). He controls TV, newspapers, website and more - just about everything you read, hear and see is what a group of people want you to see/read/hear as they slowly brainwash you into thinking what they want you to think.

For example we're lead to believe that milk from cows or other dairy products are virtually a requirement in order to have healthy strong bones etc... the truth is, cows don't magically create calcium, they get it from grass. We get enough calcium from other foods and we don't need it from cows. The only reason we're brought up (in our conditioned society) led to believe, as it is "common knowledge" that milk products are important is because the dairy industry is an important industry which provides many jobs (and people's livelihoods) and the government therefore supports them and gives them plenty of support by paying doctors and health professionals to support and advertise etc. etc.


I know I'm getting a off-topic, but if you can understand my meaning - the point is that you can't trust everything you read.


I will admit however, that CCP doesn't seem to have done much in regards to denying accusations etc. Or maybe they have and we've just been too busy raging on the forums that we've forgotten to check other areas? Like CCP Zulu's dev blogs?

cheers

Pirokobo
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.06.26 05:34:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Pirokobo on 26/06/2011 05:34:42
Originally by: Mattio11
I will admit however, that CCP doesn't seem to have done much in regards to denying accusations etc.


On the contrary I think now it's apparent why the last two new ships were called Primae Noctis.

"I'M NOT FINISHED. BEFORE WE LET YOU LEAVE, YOUR CEO MUST PRESENT HIMSELF BEFORE THIS PLAYERBASE, PUT HIS HEAD BETWEEN HIS KNEES, AND KISS HIS OWN ****."

Mattio11
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.26 05:44:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Mattio11 on 26/06/2011 06:13:47
Edited by: Mattio11 on 26/06/2011 05:58:57
Originally by: Pirokobo
Edited by: Pirokobo on 26/06/2011 05:34:42
Originally by: Mattio11
I will admit however, that CCP doesn't seem to have done much in regards to denying accusations etc.


On the contrary I think now it's apparent why the last two new ships were called Primae Noctis.

"I'M NOT FINISHED. BEFORE WE LET YOU LEAVE, YOUR CEO MUST PRESENT HIMSELF BEFORE THIS PLAYERBASE, PUT HIS HEAD BETWEEN HIS KNEES, AND KISS HIS OWN ****."


wow that's clever
---------------------

I have read something very interesting on evenews24.com and I will reference a line they use.. "Keep in mind that maybe Eve News24, by posting this, is being a peon to the well planned machinations of people wanting to destroy CCP."

I cannot provide the link to where I got this from as I've been warned that doing so may result in myself being banned from the forums or at least having this thread locked/closed.

I can tell you however, that evenews24.com, the media firm whom has brought you the leaked information and the 'supposed' email from CCP CEO Hilmar, that evenews24.com has openly admitted that there is no proof that the information is in fact legit; and that it could just be generated from people bent on ccp's destruction. However evenews24 does 'claim' to have substantial evidence. I'm still a bit skeptical.

On another note, one of CCP Zulu's recent dev blogs, discusses the leaked newsletter (not the email) and he specifically says it's just a discussion between devs and NOT the official views of the company. In fact, it's a discussion on a topic among the MMO dev community as a whole!

I will highlight the key areas of Zulu's devblog (which I highly recommend everyone reads - link is in the OP) that point out and support above statements:

Its worth mentioning that the topic of the issue was "Greed is good?" as a way to ask a question that would then be debated back and forth and often exaggerated purposefully to draw contrasts and make points. The result of that is now widely available on the internet.

"The opinions and views expressed in Fearless are just that; opinions and views. They are not CCP policy nor are they a reliable source of CCP views as a company. The employees who submitted articles to that newsletter did exactly what they were asked to do, write about theories and opinions from an exaggerated stand."

and then this...

"While its perfectly fine to disagree and attack CCP over policies or actions we take, we think its not cool how individuals that work here have been called out and dragged through the mud due to something they wrote in the internal company newsletter. Seriously, these people were doing their jobs and do not deserve the hate and ****storm being pointed at them."

My take on this is that the employees have been asked to take exaggerated stands, i.e. look at the situation and think of ways/ideas and have views etc. that aren't necessarily their own - in order to get a good discussion happening.

Arias Dren
Posted - 2011.06.26 18:42:00 - [15]
 

Yeah, that's a pretty obvious interpretation Mattio, and I wouldn't disagree with you on points raised about journalistic ulterior motives.

Though you question the validity of what is -actually- known (or 'believed' to be known) about this whole ****ing DEBACLE, i'd simply direct you to here : http://eve.beyondreality.se/NeXCQResponse.html

...in the the meantime. Plenty to read -there- that doesn't require any big 'leaps of anti-CCP faith', while we're waiting to have all the rest of our awful 'suspicions' (well, pre-facts) confirmed by CCP themselves... or spun by PR people to temporarily distract us.

Pirokobo
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:08:00 - [16]
 


Marak Mocam
Posted - 2011.06.26 22:43:00 - [17]
 

You are missing 2 facts - in order of occurrence:

- Fact: CCP said "vanity only"
- Fact: The first "store" type item to be put on the table - "Plex for Remaps". A FUNCTIONAL change.

It was removed due to player attitude problems with it. For it to be brought forth at all required senior management to approve, etc.

Now put those in with the letter and the rest of it... What you end up with is "we will slip them in" - "ignore what the users say and watch what they do".

The only way to get a message across when the CEO says they shouldn't listen and discuss is in some form of action.

What you are seeing is a natural extension of "words don't work anymore". When that happens, all you have left is actions and that goes in 2 directions: Exodus and rioting.

Mattio11
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.27 01:25:00 - [18]
 

ok. all the constructive comments/replies i'm getting from people (including other threads) have convinced me. Words aren't enough it would seem.

I suppose then that the rioting and threats of un-subbing are the only course of action we can take (however the really nasty and dis-respectful words/comments are not); and the cheeky manipulative voting schemes and biased information etc (which seem to have stopped or lessened) aren't cool either.

Go forth and riot - do what you must.

I just hope it's all over soon Very Happy

Vandrion
Gallente
The Collective
B O R G
Posted - 2011.06.27 01:34:00 - [19]
 

FACT:

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.


Sound familiar????

No plans for MT???? Welp we got it!!!

Mattio11
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.27 01:37:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Mattio11 on 27/06/2011 01:43:48
yep.. thanks for that.

Do not judge me on this but I don't think "we do not have plans" equals breaking a promise though. It just means they haven't followed their original plans (i'm not saying I agree with this).

I agree this is disappointing and it's against what a fair amount of players wanted. However you must also understand that there are many players who don't mind it (as it hasn't affected them) and there are also players who've purchased these Vanity Items and are enjoying their little fashion accessories.

Also, PLEX for ISK is a form of Micro-transaction so if that's what you're upset with, they committed this crime a long time ago - and it works and the majority are happy with it as it allows players to run multiple accounts without paying real money and it heavily reduces all the illegal isk farmers who sell on their websites and also stops their annoying in-game advertising. Smile

cheers

Vandrion
Gallente
The Collective
B O R G
Posted - 2011.06.27 01:57:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Mattio11
Edited by: Mattio11 on 27/06/2011 01:43:11
yep.. thanks for that.

Do not judge me on this but I don't "we do not have plans" equals breaking a promise though. It just means they haven't followed their original plans (i'm not saying I agree with this).

I agree this is disappointing and it's against what a fair amount of players wanted. However you must also understand that there are many players who don't mind it (as it hasn't affected them) and there are also players who've purchased these Vanity Items and are enjoying their little fashion accessories.

Also, PLEX for ISK is a form of Micro-transaction so if that's what you're upset with, they committed this crime a long time ago - and it works and the majority are happy with it as it allows players to run multiple accounts without paying real money and it heavily reduces all the illegal isk farmers who sell on their websites and also stops their annoying in-game advertising. Smile

cheers


Here is a link to a thread I made a few weeks ago:
Read Me
It contains quotes and links from CCP discussing Dust and it's MT based system. It also mentions how Dust will tie into Eve and how that tie will impact our Eve. By proxy MT for advantage is already scheduled....

The difference between Plex for Isk and full blown MT is that Plex is designed for 1 thing and that is to extend game time. Plex could only do that until Incarna came out. Plex does not allow you to bypass the player run economy, player run industry or the player run market for items. MT , even vanity only, bypasses it all. In effect MT paves over part of the sandbox.

Not judging you---- I agree that CCP's statement does not provide for a "promise" of no MT ever. Companies don't just flip a switch one day and decide to change operating models. Companies don't wait till the last minute to add a feature that requires modification on a massive scale (new menus, remodel existing menus,new items, new categories, new currency, new exchange system etc..) at the last minute. This is something that CCP has planned for a long time. I would be willing to wager it was on the drawing board when CCP Shadow made those statement. I would also be willing to say that this change with MT was being coded 6 months or more prior to Incarna's release. Copmanies don't change their operating models that quicky when they reach the size that CCP has.

Mattio11
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.27 03:00:00 - [22]
 

Vandrion in the thread you've linked above you make some fair points in your OP and provide some supporting quotes.

I replied to this OP (and try to be both objective and realistic) and we agree to disagree. Which is fine.


And you're right to have fears of what may come but we must all understand that it's all just speculation Smile ..and if CCP have any sanity and sense they won't let it happen as your fears predict.

**For those of you who aren't sure what I'm talking about - what I'm referring to is regarding Dust 514 and unrelated to game altering items bought directly in Eve.


 

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