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Fars
Gallente
Roman Sandals
Posted - 2011.08.08 17:05:00 - [151]
 

Hey, I know I'm a noob and cant every catch up to the veterans. BUT, at least in this 1.0 system im equal with all the other noobs.

*looks at the noob beside him of the same age and his shiny new cap ship*

Whoa, how did you get into that?

You paid over $2000?

so I cant even compete with other noobs? I quit!!!

The complaint that people will be happier because they cant compete even with other noobs is ridiculous.

People who want to buy SP are idiots.

Franny
Mentis Seorsum
Posted - 2011.08.09 11:13:00 - [152]
 

Originally by: Fars
Hey, I know I'm a noob and cant every catch up to the veterans. BUT, at least in this 1.0 system im equal with all the other noobs.

*looks at the noob beside him of the same age and his shiny new cap ship*

Whoa, how did you get into that?

You paid over $2000?

so I cant even compete with other noobs? I quit!!!

The complaint that people will be happier because they cant compete even with other noobs is ridiculous.

People who want to buy SP are idiots.

but you gather a few friends, with similar skills to you, and kill said cap ship because that n00b fit it with armor, shield and hull tanking mods(for more ehp), then mock him in local and on the forums

300+ frigs can kill a titan(call the goonblob), a handful of BS/cruisers can kill a carrier/dread with the right fits(friend of mine lost a carrier to roaming nano fleet, emo rage quit and sold his char)

thelma thoon
Posted - 2011.08.11 14:18:00 - [153]
 



why not make it like remapping. say 10 mil a year I think that would fair across the board.
ccp would still get a little bit of revenue rolling in.
and make everyone happy.

the plex's should bought with real money not isk




Ashgoz Kouvo
Posted - 2011.08.11 14:50:00 - [154]
 

Originally by: thelma thoon


why not make it like remapping. say 10 mil a year I think that would fair across the board.
ccp would still get a little bit of revenue rolling in.
and make everyone happy.

the plex's should bought with real money not isk






You do realize that the PLEX you can buy on the market have been bought with real money before?

Mixne
Posted - 2011.08.11 22:54:00 - [155]
 

Edited by: Mixne on 11/08/2011 22:55:14
Seems CCP introduced Aurum to remove PLEX from the system. That would imply that they want more PLEX gone. If they allowed SP purchase with PLEX, at a rate lower than you would get for waiting the month out (even below slowest training speed) that provided worse and worse return the closer you got to the theoretical maximum possible SP, PLEX would leave the market. However, because PLEX suddenly has an advantage beyond simply extending game time, it becomes even more valuable so people would pay more ISK for it, which would lead to more PLEX purchasers injecting more PLEX into the system. It would balance itself out.

Think about it. Right now, if a character were to obtain 120 PLEX, they never have to pay a dime for the next 10 years and really have no reason to purchase any more PLEX. PLEX has a limited value under the current system. Allowing the purchase of "catch up" SP on a sliding scale that decreased as your total SP increased, PLEX would have pretty much unlimited value at any point in time. More versatile (and valuable) PLEX makes sense for CCP, the players buying PLEX and the players selling PLEX.

Edit: The only people it doesn't make sense for are people who don't want to pay to play the game.

Vinita Queen
Posted - 2011.08.12 03:11:00 - [156]
 

Edited by: Vinita Queen on 12/08/2011 03:12:14
Originally by: Mixne
Edited by: Mixne on 11/08/2011 22:55:14
Seems CCP introduced Aurum to remove PLEX from the system. That would imply that they want more PLEX gone. If they allowed SP purchase with PLEX, at a rate lower than you would get for waiting the month out (even below slowest training speed) that provided worse and worse return the closer you got to the theoretical maximum possible SP, PLEX would leave the market. However, because PLEX suddenly has an advantage beyond simply extending game time, it becomes even more valuable so people would pay more ISK for it, which would lead to more PLEX purchasers injecting more PLEX into the system. It would balance itself out.

Think about it. Right now, if a character were to obtain 120 PLEX, they never have to pay a dime for the next 10 years and really have no reason to purchase any more PLEX. PLEX has a limited value under the current system. Allowing the purchase of "catch up" SP on a sliding scale that decreased as your total SP increased, PLEX would have pretty much unlimited value at any point in time. More versatile (and valuable) PLEX makes sense for CCP, the players buying PLEX and the players selling PLEX.

Edit: The only people it doesn't make sense for are people who don't want to pay to play the game.


In case you haven't figured it out yet, CCP is a unique gaming company in the sense it does what 95% of MMOs fail to do. It ignores idiots like you who have no substance and use short sighted promises to enact game breaking changes.

"If you sell skill points, everyone will be joyful and you'll become rich overnight!"

The thing is taint-sniffer they already are, and along with that they have a niche game with the creme de la creme of gamers. The IQ of the EVE playerbase, is LIGHTYEARS ahead of other MMOs. Who in the fluck would trade that in to appease plebes? Certainly not a company composed of those same brainiacs.

And no, selling clothes does not mean or imply anything further will come of it.

Hell, I like the unique clothes option but i'd rather pay an obscene amount for clothing but I want something no one else in New Eden can buy. Truly unique "fits".

Mixne
Posted - 2011.08.12 04:50:00 - [157]
 

Originally by: Vinita Queen
Edited by: Vinita Queen on 12/08/2011 03:12:14
Originally by: Mixne
Edited by: Mixne on 11/08/2011 22:55:14
Seems CCP introduced Aurum to remove PLEX from the system. That would imply that they want more PLEX gone. If they allowed SP purchase with PLEX, at a rate lower than you would get for waiting the month out (even below slowest training speed) that provided worse and worse return the closer you got to the theoretical maximum possible SP, PLEX would leave the market. However, because PLEX suddenly has an advantage beyond simply extending game time, it becomes even more valuable so people would pay more ISK for it, which would lead to more PLEX purchasers injecting more PLEX into the system. It would balance itself out.

Think about it. Right now, if a character were to obtain 120 PLEX, they never have to pay a dime for the next 10 years and really have no reason to purchase any more PLEX. PLEX has a limited value under the current system. Allowing the purchase of "catch up" SP on a sliding scale that decreased as your total SP increased, PLEX would have pretty much unlimited value at any point in time. More versatile (and valuable) PLEX makes sense for CCP, the players buying PLEX and the players selling PLEX.

Edit: The only people it doesn't make sense for are people who don't want to pay to play the game.


In case you haven't figured it out yet, CCP is a unique gaming company in the sense it does what 95% of MMOs fail to do. It ignores idiots like you who have no substance and use short sighted promises to enact game breaking changes.

"If you sell skill points, everyone will be joyful and you'll become rich overnight!"

The thing is taint-sniffer they already are, and along with that they have a niche game with the creme de la creme of gamers. The IQ of the EVE playerbase, is LIGHTYEARS ahead of other MMOs. Who in the fluck would trade that in to appease plebes? Certainly not a company composed of those same brainiacs.

And no, selling clothes does not mean or imply anything further will come of it.

Hell, I like the unique clothes option but i'd rather pay an obscene amount for clothing but I want something no one else in New Eden can buy. Truly unique "fits".


The baseless personal attacks and superiority complex with no hint of fact makes an excellent argument. Thumbs up! I do have one question though. How does paying a sub every month and waiting for SP to tick away relate in any way to the IQ of the EVE player base?

On a side note, if there were any relation between IQ and disposable income, it would seem to me that a game that allowed for a greater utilization of said disposable income would draw a crowd with a higher average IQ in general. Now, I'm not certain if there is a correlation between IQ and disposable income, but it seems like it could be a reasonable assumption.

Geormike Deninard
Posted - 2011.08.12 12:17:00 - [158]
 

Edited by: Geormike Deninard on 12/08/2011 12:17:16
Originally by: Nikita Keriget
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
1 PLEX = 2m SP, sounds like a fair convertion ratio.

19.44 million SP in 30 days with +5s at 2700 SP/hour.

As I have a few spare billion iskies I would gladly invest it all in SP! Razz



Decimal is in the wrong place, it works out to 1.944 million SP, which is why I rounded it up to 2m. Basically, a PLEX of purchased SP would be roughly the same amount as a sitting in station for a month on that same plex just training.


If it was so i could be able to get a Titan in 6 months...or a fully trained orca with hulk and everything in indy in less than a month. Or perhaps i am doing something wrong and i get 1,500,000 SP a month.

EDIT, sorry wrong quote.

Vinita Queen
Posted - 2011.08.12 12:19:00 - [159]
 

Edited by: Vinita Queen on 12/08/2011 12:24:39
Originally by: Mixne
Originally by: Vinita Queen
Edited by: Vinita Queen on 12/08/2011 03:12:14
Originally by: Mixne
Edited by: Mixne on 11/08/2011 22:55:14
Seems CCP introduced Aurum to remove PLEX from the system. That would imply that they want more PLEX gone. If they allowed SP purchase with PLEX, at a rate lower than you would get for waiting the month out (even below slowest training speed) that provided worse and worse return the closer you got to the theoretical maximum possible SP, PLEX would leave the market. However, because PLEX suddenly has an advantage beyond simply extending game time, it becomes even more valuable so people would pay more ISK for it, which would lead to more PLEX purchasers injecting more PLEX into the system. It would balance itself out.

Think about it. Right now, if a character were to obtain 120 PLEX, they never have to pay a dime for the next 10 years and really have no reason to purchase any more PLEX. PLEX has a limited value under the current system. Allowing the purchase of "catch up" SP on a sliding scale that decreased as your total SP increased, PLEX would have pretty much unlimited value at any point in time. More versatile (and valuable) PLEX makes sense for CCP, the players buying PLEX and the players selling PLEX.

Edit: The only people it doesn't make sense for are people who don't want to pay to play the game.


In case you haven't figured it out yet, CCP is a unique gaming company in the sense it does what 95% of MMOs fail to do. It ignores idiots like you who have no substance and use short sighted promises to enact game breaking changes.

"If you sell skill points, everyone will be joyful and you'll become rich overnight!"

The thing is taint-sniffer they already are, and along with that they have a niche game with the creme de la creme of gamers. The IQ of the EVE playerbase, is LIGHTYEARS ahead of other MMOs. Who in the fluck would trade that in to appease plebes? Certainly not a company composed of those same brainiacs.

And no, selling clothes does not mean or imply anything further will come of it.

Hell, I like the unique clothes option but i'd rather pay an obscene amount for clothing but I want something no one else in New Eden can buy. Truly unique "fits".


The baseless personal attacks and superiority complex with no hint of fact makes an excellent argument. Thumbs up! I do have one question though. How does paying a sub every month and waiting for SP to tick away relate in any way to the IQ of the EVE player base?

On a side note, if there were any relation between IQ and disposable income, it would seem to me that a game that allowed for a greater utilization of said disposable income would draw a crowd with a higher average IQ in general. Now, I'm not certain if there is a correlation between IQ and disposable income, but it seems like it could be a reasonable assumption.


Income and IQ had no correlation in what I posted. I said EVE had the creme de la creme of gamers because it takes an intelligent person to flourish in EVEs enviroment be it legit business person or successful scammer. Patience is a quality of an intelligent person. The more patience required the more attractive the game becomes to the intelligent.

You even mention "catch up" and that right there shows precisely how short sighted and clueless you are to the sandbox. You don't even understand how everything fits together.

You can "can" the polite overtures, the core of EVEs playerbase has zero interest in your typical buy it now mentality that pollutes every MMO on the market. There is a reason we all play EVE, to get the hell away from people like yourself.

You will never buy skillpoints, so suck it up and deal with it.

Mixne
Posted - 2011.08.12 21:42:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: Vinita Queen


Income and IQ had no correlation in what I posted. I said EVE had the creme de la creme of gamers because it takes an intelligent person to flourish in EVEs enviroment be it legit business person or successful scammer. Patience is a quality of an intelligent person. The more patience required the more attractive the game becomes to the intelligent.

You even mention "catch up" and that right there shows precisely how short sighted and clueless you are to the sandbox. You don't even understand how everything fits together.

You can "can" the polite overtures, the core of EVEs playerbase has zero interest in your typical buy it now mentality that pollutes every MMO on the market. There is a reason we all play EVE, to get the hell away from people like yourself.

You will never buy skillpoints, so suck it up and deal with it.


Intelligence is not a necessary or sufficient condition for patience. If you believe you somehow speak for the majority of the EVE player base, you are mistaken. I would be surprised if EVE lost more than 10% of the current players upon introduction of PLEX to SP conversion. The loss would very likely be made up and then some by the consumption of PLEX under that type of system. Despite your beliefs, your opinion is no more valid than anyone else's opinion. Most intelligent people recognize that. Now if you are saying that you are representative of the majority of EVE players, it would lead me to believe that EVE is not the "ivory tower" within the MMO genre you make it out to be.

FireT
Gallente
Royal Advanced Industries
Imperial Crimson Legion
Posted - 2011.08.12 23:45:00 - [161]
 

Originally by: Vinita Queen

Income and IQ had no correlation in what I posted. I said EVE had the creme de la creme of gamers because it takes an intelligent person to flourish in EVEs enviroment be it legit business person or successful scammer. Patience is a quality of an intelligent person. The more patience required the more attractive the game becomes to the intelligent.

You even mention "catch up" and that right there shows precisely how short sighted and clueless you are to the sandbox. You don't even understand how everything fits together.

You can "can" the polite overtures, the core of EVEs playerbase has zero interest in your typical buy it now mentality that pollutes every MMO on the market. There is a reason we all play EVE, to get the hell away from people like yourself.

You will never buy skillpoints, so suck it up and deal with it.


Actually I have to agree with this statement. Patience and the ability to train while being busy with real life is one reason I play Eve.
In all honesty, I am heartily sick and tired of grinding in MMOs. I prefer the ability to get real life stuff done instead of sitting on a computer to keep my e***** growing with the new gear and level.

Vinita Queen
Posted - 2011.08.13 07:27:00 - [162]
 

Edited by: Vinita Queen on 13/08/2011 07:27:50
Originally by: Mixne
Originally by: Vinita Queen


Income and IQ had no correlation in what I posted. I said EVE had the creme de la creme of gamers because it takes an intelligent person to flourish in EVEs enviroment be it legit business person or successful scammer. Patience is a quality of an intelligent person. The more patience required the more attractive the game becomes to the intelligent.

You even mention "catch up" and that right there shows precisely how short sighted and clueless you are to the sandbox. You don't even understand how everything fits together.

You can "can" the polite overtures, the core of EVEs playerbase has zero interest in your typical buy it now mentality that pollutes every MMO on the market. There is a reason we all play EVE, to get the hell away from people like yourself.

You will never buy skillpoints, so suck it up and deal with it.


Intelligence is not a necessary or sufficient condition for patience. If you believe you somehow speak for the majority of the EVE player base, you are mistaken. I would be surprised if EVE lost more than 10% of the current players upon introduction of PLEX to SP conversion. The loss would very likely be made up and then some by the consumption of PLEX under that type of system. Despite your beliefs, your opinion is no more valid than anyone else's opinion. Most intelligent people recognize that. Now if you are saying that you are representative of the majority of EVE players, it would lead me to believe that EVE is not the "ivory tower" within the MMO genre you make it out to be.


And all you have is the theater of opposition. Again, no skill points for sale ever. Not because I said so but because the devs already know the consequences of doing so. Smooches.

Mixne
Posted - 2011.08.14 02:02:00 - [163]
 

Originally by: Vinita Queen


And all you have is the theater of opposition. Again, no skill points for sale ever. Not because I said so but because the devs already know the consequences of doing so. Smooches.


I wasn't so much arguing for the implementation of PLEX to SP conversion, but rather discussing the benefits of such a system. I know that my post isn't going to influence the business decisions of the developers, but on the flip side, opposition to the idea very likely wouldn't influence the decisions of the investors if they had numbers proving they could make their investment more profitable.

I may have a different perspective had I been playing the game since release, although it would stem from the selfish desire to maintain a permanent advantage over any player that started playing after me. However, I likely would still believe the idea had merit, simply because I believe that additional income to a company that makes a game that I enjoy is a positive, so long as it doesn't make the game less enjoyable. It allows for accelerated further development of that game and extends the life of the game for everyone. I also don't see a decrease in enjoyment, instead I see it potentially increasing the enjoyment of any new players. They will actually be able to fly the ships they want to, without having to spend months doing things they don't find as enjoyable.

Keep in mind that SP =/= player skill, meaning there are more potential targets in more expensive ships flying around when the average player has the ability to fly more expensive ships. These players may not have the know how to fly them effectively, which can lead to some big kill mails. From what I gather from the forums, more targets is something that the average EVE player would enjoy.

I believe the current implementation works well, but I also believe it starts to break down over some period of time. Eight years has surpassed that period of time and the permanent SP deficit serves as a barrier of entry more than an enticing feature at this point the EVE's life. Putting up barriers to potential customers is not a good idea in any business that wants to sell something, whether it's a physical product or a service.

Also, I would like to note that I doubt I would even purchase PLEX directly if such a system were implemented. However, I certainly would use the ISK I acquire to make a PLEX purchase now and then. Directly translating ISK into "progress" doesn't really seem like a bad thing.

FireT
Gallente
Royal Advanced Industries
Imperial Crimson Legion
Posted - 2011.08.14 02:59:00 - [164]
 

Originally by: Mixne

I may have a different perspective had I been playing the game since release, although it would stem from the selfish desire to maintain a permanent advantage over any player that started playing after me.


Right there you fell into the stupid trap. THERE IS NO CATCHING UP. It has been discussed for ages and proven. Seriously, why do people interpret the only MMO where you do not catch up and don't need to catch up with every other mmo where you do need to catch up.

Mixne
Posted - 2011.08.14 04:56:00 - [165]
 

Originally by: FireT
Originally by: Mixne

I may have a different perspective had I been playing the game since release, although it would stem from the selfish desire to maintain a permanent advantage over any player that started playing after me.


Right there you fell into the stupid trap. THERE IS NO CATCHING UP. It has been discussed for ages and proven. Seriously, why do people interpret the only MMO where you do not catch up and don't need to catch up with every other mmo where you do need to catch up.


But there is "catching up", sort of. You can simply buy or earn ISK then legally purchase a character that has years and years of SP. However, you are correct that the current game design does not allow for a newly created character to catch up in total SP. The real question is whether or not this is good design, particularly over a long span of time. I believe that many players would like to have a single character and have that character advance in several different areas. Many MMO players identify with their character and don't necessarily want their own fleet of alts to accomplish what they want to do. The current design is prohibitive in that manner.

More importantly though, it would imply that SP are not important if you do not need to "catch up". If that is the case and SP are not important, why would anyone care if there was a PLEX to SP conversion mechanism? Seems like faulty logic.

lMERKATORl
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2011.08.14 10:34:00 - [166]
 

I think this is good idea

Barbelo Valentinian
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2011.08.17 20:41:00 - [167]
 

Edited by: Barbelo Valentinian on 17/08/2011 20:49:54
Originally by: Mixne

I may have a different perspective had I been playing the game since release, although it would stem from the selfish desire to maintain a permanent advantage over any player that started playing after me. However, I likely would still believe the idea had merit, simply because I believe that additional income to a company that makes a game that I enjoy is a positive, so long as it doesn't make the game less enjoyable. It allows for accelerated further development of that game and extends the life of the game for everyone. I also don't see a decrease in enjoyment, instead I see it potentially increasing the enjoyment of any new players. They will actually be able to fly the ships they want to, without having to spend months doing things they don't find as enjoyable.



That's a reasonable response - but you've got to weigh up the costs and benefits. Surely not just anything the company did to gain income would be fine by you?

Speaking for myself, but with a suspicion that I'm speaking for a fair chunk of naysayers, buying SP would be a step too far into turning EVE into a different kind of game, a game you, as a smart player, might not actually like very much.

Would you still like EVE if it turned from a sandbox into a shallower sort of game that was more like other MMOs? You might (I might, myself), but EVE at the moment has a substantial number of players who fled from that type of standard MMO design, to EVE, because EVE has this older sandbox type of design.

It's partly the "boring" stuff (e.g. having to wait for skills) that makes EVE a well-designed sandbox.

Careful what you wish for, etc., etc. Here's an important essay on the subject by an industry insider. Note the date.

Basically, an MMORPG has two major aspects to it. It's a game (with achievement, winning and losing, strategy, competition, etc.), but it's also a virtual world, or a simulation of some kind of alternate world, that's meant to immerse you in it, so you feel you're "there", that you're "living" there.

The trend to easier games diminishes the virtual worldiness (i.e. the sandboxiness) of games, cheapens them, makes them be NOT places one wants to spend a lot of time in. From a casual point of view it's a plus, but from the point of view of immersion, of the art and craft of making deep games that hold the attention for a long time, it's a loss.

I think a lot of the disappointment stems from the fact that many players thought CCP were a holdout against the WoW-ification, or casualifaction, or easification, or whatever one might call it, of MMORPGs. They trusted that CCP had its heart and soul in the idea of a game in which a big chunk of the "content" of the virtual world is player-created.

The angst and worry, and in some cases simple and curt disgust and unsubbing, are the result of that trust having now faded away for some (not EVE-killing but worrying) number of people.

Foghail
Caldari
Alcatraz Inc.
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2011.08.17 22:58:00 - [168]
 

Originally by: Patient 2428190
Skillpoint respecs, not bulk SP


I think this would be the only responsible thing CCP could do without alienating most of their long time subscribers - not to mention it would benefit those of us that have paid into CCP's coffers for the YEARS and would reward us for those 2am skill swaps before the training queue came to be - and this should ONLY be accessible once a year like a neural remap.

I and many of the people I've know in this game for years still would never support a bulk purchase SP Model, after talking with some of them what would be more or less acceptable would be the ability to "top up" our sp's to where they should be, i.e. to the Estimated SP amount like on Battle Clinic's Killboards. As its not an attempt to Buy Skill Point but just to get the SP's we should have had that for whatever reason we weren't (+2's in 2002 were as equivalently costly as +5's are now, that and +5's weren't available in 2002)this just levels the field a little more for the older players to be able to at least not feel like the outcasts that have paid your bills for the last 10 years.

Anyways humble thoughts from the old timers club,
Fog

Prospector Knight
Posted - 2011.08.17 23:10:00 - [169]
 

The problem is, as soon as the possibility of $$ for SP came around there seems to be a blanket "hell no" on any notion of SP tinkering.

I for one, would be happy with Skill point remaps, everyone who was brand new to this game awhile back didnt have the luxuries of EVEmon and EFT to help guide them through the massive amounts of skills to train.

Say once a year, same as the neural remap, you can unlearn some skills and dump the raw SP into the green un-allocated writing above the skills tabs, then add at will.

I see no problem with that, but the problem is that not many people see the distinction between SP remap and Sp for $$.

P.K

Mixne
Posted - 2011.08.18 01:38:00 - [170]
 

Originally by: Barbelo Valentinian

Here's an important essay on the subject by an industry insider.



I read the essay and disagree with much of it. However, there is one point made that I do agree with. That is:

Point #1: Virtual worlds live or die by their ability to attract newbies

This is key when considering the sales of SP for PLEX. Again, the key is to keep it on a sliding scale so the SP return on a single PLEX is more the fewer SP you have. As far as I can tell, it's not much different than the current system. PLEX can be purchased for real money, sold for ISK and ISK can be used to purchase a player from the character bazaar. Is that pay to win? Is buying PLEX and selling it for ISK pay to win? If the answer is no to either of these, buying SP with PLEX would also not be pay to win. If the answer is yes to either of those, then the game is already pay to win and buying SP would not change anything.

The changes to the game that I would foresee with such a system are as follows:

- New players would be more likely to stick around after they gave the game a try because they have an avenue of advance associated with playing the game (earning ISK, buying PLEX and converting to SP)
- Demand for produced goods would go up because people would be able to use a wider variety of modules and ship hulls
- Demand for minerals would go up because more people would be able to have the skills to produce and would want to use those skills to manufacture goods
- People couldn't use the "more SP" excuse to the same degree they do now when talking about PVP because they could simply get more SP
- More people would be apt to participate in "higher level" activities (null sec, low sec, incursions, WHs) because they wouldn't feel disadvantaged due to skills
- More people would try out PVP because they wouldn't feel disadvantage due to skills
- Corporations and alliances would have a better choice of new members, as there would be more people with the corp or alliance set SP requirements to apply
- PLEX prices would likely go up
- PLEX sales for real money would increase, because the higher sell price of PLEX would be more appealing
- The last two would balance out to some degree, but overall PLEX prices would probably increase
- The increased PLEX sales and consumption would lead to larger revenue stream and smaller "service debt" to CCP, hopefully leading to faster and less buggy content development through more skilled and more quantity of developers/programmers/testers - this could also lead to better hardware with more available funds to expand and upgrade their server farm
- Players with a permanent advantage currently would likely be unhappy and possibly quit the game (however, as mentioned in the essay, this will always occur eventually and attracting new players is the most important thing a virtual world can do)
- Some players with massive amounts of horded PLEX and/or ISK would spend that PLEX on SP (even at a fairly low return) and spread their ISK throughout the economy by buying PLEX from other (probably newer) players
- Some players that pay for playtime exclusively with PLEX would be unhappy with the increase in PLEX prices and possibly quit because it was no longer affordable OR simply start paying their monthly sub rather than using PLEX

Can you highlight any extremely bad points to the system? Do you believe enough players would quit over it? I'm pretty certain there was a pretty big uproar over PLEX when it was introduced and I'm guessing that a lot people made a lot of noise when the player bazaar was implemented. Both of those could be considered a pay to win scheme just as much as, if not more than, the conversion of PLEX to SP.

In my opinion, SP is really a content gate. Gating content arbitrarily on time played over effort put forth is not what I consider good game design, but maybe it is to most people?

Mixne
Posted - 2011.08.18 01:46:00 - [171]
 

- continuation of above -

In regards to changing EVE from a sandbox to a shallower sort of game, adding PLEX to SP conversion could not accomplish that. A sandbox is a game in which you are allowed to do what you want. There is no set path to take. You set your own goals and follow your own path to reach those goals. If anything, providing a way to get more SP than simply waiting would make the game MORE of a sandbox because content would not be gated off for x amount of days, months or even years. More people would be able to do more of what they wanted to than ever before.

I also don't necessarily see the reduce in difficulty of the game. Placing skills in the skill training queue is not difficult. Fighting unbalanced fights that you have little to no chance of winning due to massive SP gaps may be difficult, but I would venture it's also not fun for the majority of people. Paying CCP a sub fee every month is not difficult (the prerequisite for skill training) for most people.

However, I would like to thank you for the most logical and well spoken post against the idea of PLEX to SP conversion in this thread. I would very much appreciate if you highlight something I am overlooking and will be happy to change my mind if evidence supports it being a "bad idea".

Kazumi Ki
Posted - 2011.08.20 16:12:00 - [172]
 

Edited by: Kazumi Ki on 20/08/2011 16:19:36
I have only been playing Eve for a few days now so coming from a new player experience (noob) I can honestly say this game needs to change NOTHING about the way skills are accumulated. I have been playing Wow since beta, and for years I have been trying to find something to get me away from that God awful game, and finally I have found that game. The way I see it, do we really want people in our universe that are to impatient to level up the correct way? I mean I was reading that you guys used to have leaning skills, that would take 60 days to train just to speed up skills training. Now they took them away and just gave people + 10 attributes. Seems to me they have already sped up the process. IMHO if new players can't handle the ( AMAZING ) system that is in place now, they should go back to games that require you to spend hours/days/months of your life grinding Mobs/Instances/Quests/Raids to get the exp, to level up. Considering that I am currently at work and my character is leveling without me being logged in I think the better choice is obvious. While I was hooked on wow many times I have passed up social gatherings with my friends because I needed to grind Honor to get the newest pvp gear. Only to have the gear be useless in a few months. Now with eve I do not feel this pressure that I have to play the game, because my character is training without me. This is a amazing concept and does not need to be changed. To all the care bears that cry about it taking to long to raise skills. Go play Star trek online or wait for Star Wars the old republic. I don't care what you do as long as you get out of my universe.

Gemberslaafje
Vivicide
Posted - 2011.08.20 18:49:00 - [173]
 

If they introduce any non-vanity MT, I'm quitting the game.

Kyr Evotorin
Eye of God
Intergalactic Exports Group
Posted - 2011.08.20 20:05:00 - [174]
 

Is it bad that I laughed when someone stated that the IQ of the Eve playerbase was lightyears ahead of other mmos?

The only thing that came to mind was... If we had higher IQ's why do our forums look exactly the same?

Sure, you can learn the game, adapt to it, and play a more complex game... Ability to adapt =/= IQ

In other, more relevant news, Selling SP... got nothin.

Sarfux
Posted - 2011.08.21 03:29:00 - [175]
 

Its ok guys you can all relax.

CCP no longer needs to sell skill points (nor were they going to anyways)

Because Another superior Spaceship MMO beat them to it.

Black Prophecy, Free to play, joystick support oh and 100x better pvp.

No need to thank me, enjoy!

Guttripper
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.08.21 16:30:00 - [176]
 

Mixne -

One aspect you may have overlooked was time itself, a constant for all players. Whether it is a currently subscribed character to one for sale in the bazaar, every skill point accumulated was "bought" with a moment of time. Yes, with implants and maximizing two out of five attributes, you can gain skill points faster which may give a subtle edge versus another over time. But the drawback (or worse) could be the potential to loose those implants (and feel the sudden "loss" of skill training) to specializing in certain skills for a period of time and then being dragged along with training if the two attributes now utilized are minimized due to maximizing two others during that boost. In part, this was one reason neural remaps were limited to once a year, so people were not constantly training whatever skill with any two attribute combinations full tilt with maximized attributes and no potential downside.

Using a plex to exchange for skill points - I will take it one step further. Remove both the attribute and skill points and if you can buy it, then you can fly it. Both ideas remove the aspect of time being spent to accumulate skill points to achieve a personal goal. Plus this voids one of the gripes about the Nex store of a sandbox game having something created out of nothing. The only "true" value a plex has is the access CCP allows to their servers. The monetary aspect is just a derivative of a player driven market.

Just my humble thoughts on the matter.

Marshall Rooster Cogburn
Posted - 2011.08.22 08:36:00 - [177]
 

"Plex for SP" would spark Jita up as hot as a Wh*** house on nickle night. It would be plumb with stoved up suck eggs, including me, looking to give monument one hell-fire of a whaling. The forums would be up to the hub with suitcase ranchers, stump orators, and John Yeggs' looking to set their hash by giving the mods a hollering.

Letting any old ten cent man plank down plex for SP so he can start roosting over the rest of us would get CCP on the win for a while, but EVE would be gone up the flume before too long as I imagine many of us would be gone three ways of sunday.

Templatus
Posted - 2011.08.22 09:54:00 - [178]
 

Originally by: Patient 2428190
Skillpoint respecs, not bulk SP
I like this idea.

Barbelo Valentinian
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2011.08.23 14:24:00 - [179]
 

Originally by: Mixne

In regards to changing EVE from a sandbox to a shallower sort of game, adding PLEX to SP conversion could not accomplish that. A sandbox is a game in which you are allowed to do what you want. There is no set path to take. You set your own goals and follow your own path to reach those goals. If anything, providing a way to get more SP than simply waiting would make the game MORE of a sandbox because content would not be gated off for x amount of days, months or even years. More people would be able to do more of what they wanted to than ever before.


You can do what you want in a themepark game too, that's not quite the distinction as I see it. Essentially the distinction is more from the developers' side - a sandbox game, they create the tools to enable players to create their own content (roleplaying - not necessarily heavy rp, you understand, but creating their own careers in a virtual world, through interaction between themselves); in a themepark game, the developers create the playable content. "Content" here meaning: "things to do in the game, things to get interested in, immersed in, passionate about". In both types of game you can do what you want within the parameters of the game, but in one type of game the range of "things to do" is created more by the players, in the other type of game the "things to do" are created more by the devs.

In a themepark game, both the virtual world, and the things to do in it, are created by the devs, and you can do what you want in that context.

In a sandbox game, only the virtual world is created by the devs (obviously they have to create some PvE content to get people started, but the main emphasis is on what the players create amongst themselves).

Now, that having been said, the thing about player created content in a sandbox is it requires long-term commitment from players. It's weighted a bit more towards the virtual world concept than the game concept. New Eden is a "place" where you can do stuff; WoW is a "game" where you can do stuff. (WoW has some "place" feel of course, and EVE has lots of "game" elements to it too, although they're not nearly as fully developed as WoW's.)

A sandbox game is a game in which you actually roleplay more than you would in a gamey game like WoW - you create a virtual career for yourself, whatever you fancy, in the virtual world. To feel confident in that, a player has to feel they're in it for the long haul, and trust the developers that they're in it for the long haul too. Together, devs and players, they create something special.

EVE has, for a long time, been something special like this; it's gone against the grain of most MMOs, in sticking to its original virtual world/sandbox heart and soul.

Things like selling SP cut away from the time element, the virtual worldy element, and discourage the types of players who want to spend time building something of their own in a virtual world. Sure, selling SP would be a perfectly fine thing from the point of view of a game like WoW, but they're somewhat corrosive of a virtual world like EVE.

It's not yet wholly clear whether CCP want to go down that route, but "Fearless" made it plain that they've certainly been considering the idea. That would mean, essentially, that they've been toying with changing the nature of EVE from one type of game and skewing it more towards another type of game.

Even if EVE changed, it would still be a good game, no doubt, but a different type of game - a game that many vet players, certainly, didn't sign on for.

So the question is, if the types of players who were drawn towards the sandbox concept, and take time to create player-made content leave (because their time commitment is devalued by buyable SP), what becomes of the "cool" factor of EVE? What becomes of the whole "EVE is Real" idea? It's a conundrum for CCP.

Mixne
Posted - 2011.08.23 15:38:00 - [180]
 

Originally by: Barbelo Valentinian

So the question is, if the types of players who were drawn towards the sandbox concept, and take time to create player-made content leave (because their time commitment is devalued by buyable SP), what becomes of the "cool" factor of EVE? What becomes of the whole "EVE is Real" idea? It's a conundrum for CCP.



It could also be argued that SP place a gate on the content, reducing the "sandbox" aspect. If I go play in a sandbox, I don't need to spend a month learning how to use a shovel, then another month on learning to use a rake, then two months on using a bucket, etc. I can hop right in and use my imagination to do whatever I want for the most part. It really comes down to how a sandbox is defined.

As far as devaluing time spent gather SP for vets, think of a system like this. If a PLEX converted to 2 mil SP when the player was below 20 mil total SP, 1.5 mil SP when a player was between 20 mil and 50 mil SP, 1 mil SP when a player was between 50 mil and 80 mil SP and, .5 mil SP when a player was between 80 and 120 mil and something like .25 mil SP when a player was over 120 mil, it would cost a brand new player $2,000 worth of PLEX (at $20 per PLEX) to get to 100 mil SP. 5 years of game time at $15 per month costs $900 (I believe you can make about 20 mil SP per year, correct me if I'm wrong). That means the 5 years of time actually spent playing is valued at $1,100. That's placing some rather high value on time spent playing a game.

Regardless of that, the largest issue is attracting and retaining new players. Older players WILL leave the game eventually, regardless of what CCP does. People just get bored eventually. They may leave more quickly if they are dissatisfied with something specific (such as the NeX), but according to the essay you linked earlier, they will leave eventually even without a "push" of some sort. A game then needs to attract and retain new players to make up for the players leaving. SP this late in the game serves as a barrier to entry for new players. Whether it's real or imagined, it doesn't matter. It's the perception and in the service industry, customer perception is a very real thing. I actually like the real time to SP system in place, but I also feel that after 8 years of the game going on, it can be a turn off to new players. I doubt anyone likes the idea of being 8 years behind permanently, even if it's just their perception.

Basically, CCP should either do something that successfully changes that perception (no idea what or if it's even possible) or actually change the mechanic that creates it. This should lead to more new players. Not to mention the occasional $2k cash injection of someone that just HAS to have 100 mil SP. Also, keep in mind that dropping $2k on SP isn't going to make someone a good pilot. ;)


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