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blankseplocked Why the Eve community is not intelligent.
 
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Towaoc
Caldari
Applied Technologies Inc
Posted - 2011.06.24 23:37:00 - [61]
 

Edited by: Towaoc on 24/06/2011 23:48:18

M14D,

For me, the fact that you post with a one-day old alt totally overshadows and diminishes the possibility that you touch upon a couple of good points about CCP. Come back with an established main and the stakes go up: maybe there is a discussion to be had.

Edit: I totally disagree with your subject line, btw. The EVE player community is, on balance, one of the most intelligent and energetic cirles that you'll encounter in any endeavor. What you are witnessing here is a healthy outburst of rage from a dedicated player base that will make CCP stronger in the long run.


Zen Sarum
Posted - 2011.06.24 23:38:00 - [62]
 

Sorry but if we in the real world sent out an internal newsletter saying our customers are wrong for not liking something when we want to make more money out of them or change how we do it. OR indeed however nicely you want to put it in a 'open forum discussion paper..' how would a customer read it?

Would your ass touch the ground on the way out the door? No..

This is not how companies work, or at least not successful ones.

In today's world there is no 'internal memo' liability, ethics, product /company integrity is a hot issue and a basic requirement for any company/employees to get right. You can't even send an email today without having to think if this goes out will someone use it / misread it / send it to a customer/ used in court.

The customer is always right and the fact that this hasn't seemed to sink in and CCP employees are avidly questioning why players are being so uptight about the issue, despite us making it clear for a long time, CSM discussions etc, this is the real issue.

James Razor
Amarr
Fallen Angel's
White Noise.
Posted - 2011.06.24 23:55:00 - [63]
 

Edited by: James Razor on 24/06/2011 23:56:20
I found the holy grail (or whatever it is spelled):

http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/CCP-Games-Reviews-E159347.htm

Read that and you will understand a lot of what is going on.

Btw.: Thanks to Hans Jagerblitzen for bringing that to my attention.

Elienore
Posted - 2011.06.24 23:58:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: James Razor
Edited by: James Razor on 24/06/2011 23:56:20
I found the holy grail (or whatever it is spelled):

http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/CCP-Games-Reviews-E159347.htm

Read that and you will understand a lot of what is going on.

Btw.: Thanks to Hans Jagerblitzen for bringing that to my attention.


That Holy Grail was found a long time ago (and if it's a new Grail, I read the last one, pretty sure it will be similar to that one).

Taius Pax
Posted - 2011.06.24 23:58:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Scorpii Zenith
Profit, without profit, there isn't EVE.

Without profit, there isn't new stuff for EVE.

You lazy ass socialistic poor kiddos should get a job and life.

Your stuff, to Scorpii Zenith, via contract. Thank you.


Irony much?

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.25 00:02:00 - [66]
 

Call me stupid all you want, I can run a particle accelerator and am better than you at eve.

Also, rating the intelligence of a community is pretty ****ing stupid, as every community has the same I.Q., which is an average of 100.

Cancel Align NOW
Posted - 2011.06.25 00:04:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Tron Flux
Cancel Align,

People are silent because happy people don't gripe about stuff on message boards. There are very likely a small percent of players who have 5 or more accounts. Very small percent.

You think that you're important because you've been playing for a long time. And all of of these scary potential changes worry you because they would allow newer players to compete with your older players. That's all there is to it. Virtually all of the whiners about this stuff are older players who can't stand the thought of having their cookies taken away by noobs who "don't get what EVE is all about."

I have no idea what direction ccp will go other than what has been clearly stated. And I'm fine with it. If the game gets ruined, I'll play another game. No big deal. Why don't you all stop playing Internet superhero and go blow up some ships?

Sheesh, some of you with your total misunderstanding of rights and liberties make me not only embarrassed to play eve but also embarrassed to be a U.S. Citizen. I hope you don't use the same lack of logic when you vote.


Im taking your weak troll bait:

In 1936 less than 15% of the adult German population were members of the **** Party. If good people don't stand up then evil flourishes. I am not worried about cookies being taken away. I am worried that CCP will lose its market niche and become another generic lame game. Eve is by far the best game I have found and as such I am a loyal customer.

The US constitution is incredibly flawed and the separation of morale values from economic gain for self has lead to the dramatic decline in your country.

Elienore
Posted - 2011.06.25 00:04:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Cipher Jones
Call me stupid all you want, I can run a particle accelerator and am better than you at eve.

Also, rating the intelligence of a community is pretty ****ing stupid, as every community has the same I.Q., which is an average of 100.



To be fair, the point is more "most people here are idiots" rather than "hohum, by looking at the posts written by people, I have concluded the average IQ in the forum is about 64.2".

M14D
Posted - 2011.06.25 00:07:00 - [69]
 

Edited by: M14D on 25/06/2011 00:08:48
Originally by: Towaoc
Edited by: Towaoc on 24/06/2011 23:48:18

M14D,

For me, the fact that you post with a one-day old alt totally overshadows and diminishes the possibility that you touch upon a couple of good points about CCP. Come back with an established main and the stakes go up: maybe there is a discussion to be had.

Edit: I totally disagree with your subject line, btw. The EVE player community is, on balance, one of the most intelligent and energetic cirles that you'll encounter in any endeavor. What you are witnessing here is a healthy outburst of rage from a dedicated player base that will make CCP stronger in the long run.




It's not a healthy outburst of rage. For that to be true, CCP would have needed to announce they're actually going through with the concepts of more MT.

Since that's not the case, this entire outburst is based on nothing more than ignorance and the desire to protest as I've been outlining.

You refute your own point of this community being more special than others, it's entirely mediocre and today it's made a mockery of itself. There are good and wise people here, no doubt, but every community will have its immature players. And sad as it may be, they carry the largest voice and they shape the overall perception of a community and in this sense the EVE community does not show to distinguish itself when it comes to misunderstandings / arguments.

IGNATIUS HOOD
Amarr
Zephyr Corp
V.A.S.T.
Posted - 2011.06.25 00:19:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: M14D
Now that we have this sorted, we come to the outright absurd behaviour of the Eve community at large today.

I see uninformed arguments all over the place now. People throw as much a pitchfork-tantrum here as they would do in Hello Kitty Online Adventures should the company ever decide to stop selling pandabear pets in NPC stores. Because if you were informed, you would have come to the same conclusion as me up there.

Some people choose to remain uninformed, eternally ignorant towards logical argument and their own fallacies. Why? Because protesting is fun, guys. It's 2011. I see analogies to Greece and the Middle-East all over the place here. Massive fleets in EVE are forming up right now to spam the channels. Screw reasonable thought, inspired by global revolutions we now have our "DEY WANT TO TAKE OUR FREEDOMZ" moment and we're going to make sure this continues late into the night, because this sure as hell beats doing lvl4 missions in a droneboat! In short, this is what's known as bandwagon behaviour.

There's also a second class of people manifesting today. They're the so called rage-quitters. Found excessively in all communities, they suffer from unwarranted self-importance by assuming that anyone gives a damn if they just post they're going to quit. Which, by the way, they're not. 90% of all rage-quitters will return within a week. They just wanted to feel, you know, special. Like throwing your toys out of the pram, but after a while you'll want them back. When no one's looking. Silently.

The third category of people I see here today are the types I like to label as "herpderp no u, noob" people. They carry no arguments with them. Instead, they rely on rhetoric that doesn't delve into the point at hand, but is personally aimed towards the opponent. Phrases such as "you're just a fanboy" and personal insults which includes, but is not limited to: "die in a fire." These sorts of 'threats' then often culmulate into heated exchanges, with a now famed example being some random self-proclaimed important person threatening CCP personnell, and finding herself banned on all accounts. Rightly so.

So with the above, I've accurately summarised today's EVE community (with exceptions such as those who agree with me) as ragequitting, swearing bandwagoneers. Congratulations, you're not an exceptional community. You fit the norm and behave exactly as expected.

The expected response to this is: "so your definition of intelligent is taking it up the rear by CCP?"

The answer is: No, I simply know the difference between actually having something up me and being reamed by a non-existent object. The latter being the case here today.


Well reasoned. Read any Ann Coulter lately? She makes very similar points frequently.

That being said I'm relatively speaking ambivalent to most things about Incarna save the fact that CQ seems shoddy, incomplete, and pointless in its current iteration. Perhaps down the road it will have merit but I for one see no use for it and I will really hate it if we aren't allowed to ignore it unless we choose otherwise.

The MT concerns are just that, concerns, until I actually see game advancing stuff for sale in the MT I won't worry much about it.

M14D
Posted - 2011.06.25 00:39:00 - [71]
 

Edited by: M14D on 25/06/2011 00:39:50
Originally by: IGNATIUS HOOD


Well reasoned. Read any Ann Coulter lately? She makes very similar points frequently.

That being said I'm relatively speaking ambivalent to most things about Incarna save the fact that CQ seems shoddy, incomplete, and pointless in its current iteration. Perhaps down the road it will have merit but I for one see no use for it and I will really hate it if we aren't allowed to ignore it unless we choose otherwise.

The MT concerns are just that, concerns, until I actually see game advancing stuff for sale in the MT I won't worry much about it.


Read none of her, though I know the name.

I couldn't care less about the new additions to the game. It's neat, if I don't like it, I turn it off, simple as. Nothing really hits me against the shin so far.

My gripe here is with people acting like baboons. Just now I've spotted a topic where someone was proud to announce she'd sent info to the associated press about this, to see if they'd pick up on the "protests".

I've never wanted to leave this forum more than I did when reading that. I have no words for it, I think I should just go to sleep.

Cancel Align NOW
Posted - 2011.06.25 00:42:00 - [72]
 

You still haven't responded to my point:

This is not a new discussion. It is CCP having a discussion internally that was had 12 months ago with CSM5. The end result of that process was a segment of the eve population quitting and CCP claiming they would not carry on along those lines. The rage is due to being lied to.

M14D
Posted - 2011.06.25 00:49:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Cancel Align NOW
You still haven't responded to my point:

This is not a new discussion. It is CCP having a discussion internally that was had 12 months ago with CSM5. The end result of that process was a segment of the eve population quitting and CCP claiming they would not carry on along those lines. The rage is due to being lied to.


In your view they carried on by introducing a split-off from PLEX, an already existing MT which they merely modified, so it literally makes no difference to anyone?

As that's all I've seen so far and I consider it relatively harmless. You may see it as a stepping stone to the kinds of things people would really make a fuss about, I don't as much. They know better, and by knowing better they'll craftily find other ways, such as Aurum in its current form, to spice up the existing MT somewhat.

I don't blame them for that, nor should you imo.

Valor D'eglise
Gallente
Red Cross Of Gallente Federation
Posted - 2011.06.25 01:12:00 - [74]
 

Didn't read the whole thread, I just wanted to say that I thought it was kinda sad how rumors spread and were declared facts, like it was already decided or something. I have read the newsletter in question and from the beginning understood what it was and what it actually was intended for.
I kind of fought an uphill battle when discussing even with my closest spaceship friends who blindly believed the gossip. I thought they were smarter than that.

Then I read the red text in the justin.tv livestram of the demo in Jita and had to facepalm. There was even an official statement from someone from CCP in a thread explaining what this newsletter was at this time (actually much earlier).

I start to believe it's some kind of experiment from some psychology majors on group dynamics or something.
So much sadness.Sad

Xinlisupreme
Posted - 2011.06.25 01:12:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: M14D
First Post



+1

I've been thinking the same thing since the expansion came out.
Why can't everyone just be patient and enjoy the game?

Jenshae Chiroptera
Posted - 2011.06.25 11:42:00 - [76]
 

I didn't know that Captain Obvious was called M14D, I hope they aren't a version of many of them. Ponderous and condescending I am sure we all want to hear more from this guy.

RougeOperator
Posted - 2011.06.25 11:45:00 - [77]
 

So its the weekend and it seems CCP is using 1day old alts to do damage control now.

Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.06.25 11:51:00 - [78]
 

Call me when you have any idea of what's going on.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: You're in denial.

Even if I'm wrong, what CCP might be doing right now is so dangerous that it's worth protesting as early and as often as possible. Wasted concern and protesting is better than waiting until it's too late.

Starla Beach
Posted - 2011.06.25 11:51:00 - [79]
 

OP is boring.

Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
Posted - 2011.06.25 11:55:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Towaoc
M14D,

For me, the fact that you post with a one-day old alt totally overshadows and diminishes the possibility that you touch upon a couple of good points about CCP. Come back with an established main and the stakes go up: maybe there is a discussion to be had.

If it's not Einstein that says something it's automatically untrue?
Got to love this logic ..
Originally by: Cipher Jones
Call me stupid all you want, I can run a particle accelerator and am better than you at eve.

Also, rating the intelligence of a community is pretty ****ing stupid, as every community has the same I.Q., which is an average of 100.


LOL Very Happy

I don't know about intelligence but a large part of the - online posting - EVE community definitely is made out of a bunch of conservative rude hotheads. Conservative rude hotheads can still be intelligent, though.

Kira Bellum
Amarr
Schwarzwald Homeland
Posted - 2011.06.25 11:57:00 - [81]
 

M14D have you considered that

"CCP had all of your possible complaints noted down before you even knew of this."

is inaccurate? perhaps at the meetings the topic of community response came up and they werent able to figure out how much hate this would cause....

so releasing a 'leaked' document is their method of testing the waters so to speak. Obama does this all the time as well.

theyre going to let this run for a while, see how many cancellations ACTUALLY come to pass and then run profit calculations based on how many monocles are bought vs how much money they lost from subs canceled.


so while you're correct that people are flaming up for something that hasnt happened yet, your implication that its stupid may or may not be correct.

If there was no hate NOW, ccp would implement it yes? with massive hate and many canceled subs... well Im sure they'd pay attention to lost profits.


besides, how many 'leaked' documents happen around here? in the very least, it's a reasonable possibility it was leaked on purpose to test the waters.

Farelle
Gallente
Core Impulse
Posted - 2011.06.25 11:59:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: M14D
It's a stereotype that's long existed eventhough it's been proven false many a time. Still, there are those who insist on keeping the view with them, that the Eve community is something special. That amongst an average taken number of the population; maturity and intelligence are traits that prosper here, more than they do in other online communities.

But I must conclude; especially after today, that this is a farce.

Before I explain why, I'll go ahead and offer a brief insight into company workings, using a form of written language that may finally reach some people here:

CCP is a company. Companies think about making money. Those thoughts are written down. Often they are discussed. This is done in a debated style. Because that highlights the good- and the bad factors of such a thought. After the debating is done, the thought is placed aside until it may one day be looked at again. A conclusion is then made of the old debate. Will this thought turn live? Maybe. Maybe not. This is how companies work. Everything must be discussed. Even things people no likey. Not even the company itself Just for the sake of discussing it. To test viability.


This, children, is done in many, if not all, companies around the world. Brainstorming sessions that are taken just one step further through having looked carefully into the market and noticing a growing trend of microtransactions. They don't nessecarily like this themselves, but to keep up with competition they investigate this phenomenom for the purpose of knowledge. Because when you study a topic, unpopular as it may be such as the former, you may find a loophole somewhere that deviates from the original, but can count on some actual support. That is why, when you circulate an internal newsletter, you discuss both the merits, disadvantages as well as ALL POSSIBLE OPTIONS THAT COME TO MIND; even if you personally detest it. That's why in the newsletter you will find detailed descriptions of possible microtransactions involving ships, ammo and the like.

Now, what this does not mean is that the plans are concrete and viable

This is where the Eve community mucks up. In such a fashion that it forgets to look at things realistically and instead gets carried away by its own zeal and the berserking effect of the warpaint on their faces. Because you see, the Eve community today tries to assert that the plans, as presented in the newsletter, are both concrete, viable and under heavy consideration.

1. Why they aren't concrete

First of all, it's an internal newsletter. It's meant for open discussion within the company itself for the purpose of evaluating a concept. This is done in similar fashion in other branches. For instance, I'm quite positive the United States government has ran through various sessions where they had to accurately write up a plan to conquer all of China. If it were to happen, how would we do it, when would we do it. This is done in such a way that it looks authentic. There's no point in doing it otherwise.
What this does not mean, again, is that such an internally discussed concept is concrete.

2. Why it isn't viable.

Unlike the majority of you, CCP is not that stupid, and their final evaluation would include that such an idea cannot ever rely on suitable community support and therefore it would never go through. While I'm sure it's a paradigm for some of you here that you're not the only one capable of thinking of negative sides, I can assure you; CCP had all of your possible complaints noted down before you even knew of this.




except it's an idea they promised not to even consider, repeatedly, then oh wait they Lied AGAIN.

Amorlune
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2011.06.25 12:01:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Scarlet des Loupes
Originally by: M14D
snip

Basically you're saying "if they want to make EVE into WoW in space they should go ahead as it's just about money".



This reminds me of SWG, we all recall how that went for Sony right? ;)

Istyn
Tactical Knightmare
Posted - 2011.06.25 12:04:00 - [84]
 


Katrina Cortez
Posted - 2011.06.25 12:04:00 - [85]
 

All of this started way before that memo... and we are way beyond it now.


Dimitri Fukoyama
Posted - 2011.06.25 12:06:00 - [86]
 

For the OP:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradigm

Ashlyn Shi'jun
Posted - 2011.06.25 12:09:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Demure Guise
All I saw of your post was "blahblah asskiss".


Yeah thats a great response to a objective post by someone who takes the time to stem against the tide of stupidity.

Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.06.25 12:10:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Ashlyn Shi'jun
Originally by: Demure Guise
All I saw of your post was "blahblah asskiss".


Yeah thats a great response to a objective post by someone who takes the time to stem against the tide of stupidity.

I'd agree with you if that's what the OP was, instead of the apologist, asskissing bullsh!t that it actually is.

Sub Prime
Posted - 2011.06.25 12:12:00 - [89]
 

What a misinformed load of claptrap from the OP. You seem to think the problem is wholly concerning the leaked internal 'brainstorming' document. Knock-knock, it's not. The document is purely another straw on the camels back. The final straw that broke the camels back was the blog from CCP Zulu as he failed to answer the actual concerns. It's almost given that he actually did understand the concerns and that failing to answer them was intentional as it would inflame the situation even more.

I'm amazed (considering you promote yourself above us mere mortals as far as business intellect is concerned) that you're so naive to think that CCP is right to be so reactive in not listening to customers complaints, and instead just waiting for actions. Guess what? It's too late by then!

Rule #1- It's far more costly gaining new customers than retaining existing customers. AKA Reducing churn rate, not wholly gaining customers to maintain turnover is the better way to retain profitability. Subscription (returning customers) is an absolute dream income for a business. Gambling that dream income on potentially one off purchases is financially absurd.

For me it reeks of CCP requiring more money to fund development for other projects that have gone over budget/time. Instead of looking for (more?) external investment to cover the shorfall, they're trying to fund it through Eve customers. Considering Eve is their flagship product, gambling customer retention on the development on not one, but two new products (and new markets), makes me cringe.


Maximillian Triton
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.25 12:13:00 - [90]
 

Congrats on having your head so far up CCP's ass I don't know where they end and you begin. Think the Human Centipede for added effect. Congrats on the one day old alt, since you obviously ain't man enough to post on yer main like some of us. Get lost and take the rest of those CCP Bowsies with you.


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