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Kavin Alavandar
Extropy Dianoetics
Posted - 2011.06.25 07:45:00 - [2191]
 

Originally by: Khandara Seraphim
We went from the most amazing, unique experience in the history of gaming to a laggy, glitchy, bug-ridden mess... and now they're planning to give a leg up to whoever pays them the most.

How did we get here? How?

I dreamed a dream that was Eve. And now that dream is dead.
With the time-based skill-training, how hasn't it always been that way?

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2011.06.25 07:45:00 - [2192]
 

CCP Zulu is a pretty good dude, and no bull**** coming from his mouth, at least I trust him.

I think he believes the stuff he said, and it is not unreasonable stuff too.


But it is missing completely the point!

It is not about NEX prices or something like that.



It is about broken promises, lost trust and no faith into CCP any more. It is about the future of EVE and where it is heading.


None of these concerns were adressed and that is a shame. I guess actions speak louder than words.

dunnhill
Posted - 2011.06.25 07:47:00 - [2193]
 

lack of communication is really hurting the community :(

Constantinus Maximus
Paxian Expeditionary Force
Posted - 2011.06.25 07:47:00 - [2194]
 


Originally by: Dalton Vanadis
At this point, I think my message will be lost in the 70+ pages of others. But I'll give it a go regardless.

CCP has been, easily, my favorite company on this planet. For the time I've played EVE they have always seemed up front and caring to customers, they always seemed to give a **** about the customer and by extension, this would bring them steady, good business.

I won't lie, a lot of things in the last few days have really irked me. Maybe not to the point of unsubbing, but damn close. All I can say is, this is the first time I've seen video game players RIOT. This is the first time I've seen thousands of players unite in under 24 hours to send a company messages of displeasure. I'm pretty sure CCP has gotten more forum responses in 24 hours than most US congressional representatives get in a month. I would think that this would prompt the company to listen.

See, if I don't think about Hilmar's email, or Zulu's rude, stuck-up, and arrogant as hell devblog, or the internal discussion on a topic I thought was closed, or even the absolute misunderstanding of the stated meaning of *micro,* I start to calm down and go to my normal state of, "perhaps they just screwed something up and it'll be fixed in a day or two."

But then I think about the absolute contempt of the player base in Hilmar's email, or the arrogance of Zulu's dev blog, or the money-sucking opinions of a propagandist internal newsletter (lets call a spade a spade here), or the complete disconnect with reality on the NeX. And really, the only shining beacon left to me is Pann's amazingly well-mannered olive branch (thank you!) and the amazing work that people like Soundwave have done (again, thank you! BFF made Soundwave my most favorite dev evah). It's hard to cling to those small gems when it seems like the higher ups are completely disconnected with reality.

Essentially, the players have given you an easy out, take it, all they want is information about a game that many pay for a YEAR in advance, that many have dedicated YEARS of their lives to. Manage expectations, be honest and forthcoming, you will solve a lot of this. Hopefully the player reaction shows you that doing this sooner rather than later is in your best interests.

Please, please, I love the potential WiS offers, you enchanted me at fanfest, you've shown you are committed to player requests, please don't let something as ******edly stupid as definitively answering one question derail you as a company. As Pann said, you have long since passed the expiration date on our patience, the farther you go away from it, the more it's going to sour. I don't know what you've got roiling internally right now, but you best get it sorted.

So to end: I like EVE, ima little ****ed, I have good memories new and old, most devs I like (there are a few that I may not have glowing opinions of, but I'll keep that opinion to myself and my corpmates), It's hard not to get ****ed at the material out there now, I'm still excited for the future of EVE, but you really do need to hop on the full-disclosure bandwagon (or at least some variant that you were on earlier), and I really hope this turns out for the better and that we can all go back to happiness, puppies, and rainbows.

But seriously, you guys suck at PR lately, you've been doing way more damage control than is normal, you should be structured so damage control never need occur because you are that in tune with your customers, the products they buy and want (actually say they want, this is NOT a no means yes situation).

Just my long ass two cents, hopefully you'll take a little time and notice it.


There you go, good post has to be on more then one page. Many feel exactly the same.

Jim Luc
Caldari
Rule of Five
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.25 07:47:00 - [2195]
 

The unfortunate thing is that CCP has gotten themselves into a bind with PLEX. By tying Real-Life money in with the game, you then put a Real Life value on something in a game that you could never get away with charging Real-Life dollars & cents for in the game. Like - you could never charge $35 for a T3 ship, yet that's what you can get when you buy a PLEX with RL money and sell it in Jita for 750mil ISK.

There is a difference though, attempting to charge the same rates for something that is untested. It's just a little ridiculous to me that they'd think MICRO-transactions means anything above $1USD.

I'm also confused why they didn't answer the questions raised by the Fearless newsletter regarding the future of RMT Microtransactions - specifically, "do you plan to introduce non-vanity items to the NeX?"

All in all it just shows poor judgement from a company we love. Releasing an expansion with a tiny amount of goods, at huge prices doesn't seem like a great way to garner love for the new expansion. I would've thought that releasing with a bunch of items that are cheap so many people purchase them - then release a few more at higher price points, finally a fully decked out CQ with stripper-pole and underwater aquarium with live DJ would finally cost players $80. Who wants a stupid monocle anyways?? It doesn't even look very cool...

I guess it just seems like a slap in the face to those of us looking forward to this expansion.

Moving forward:

1. What is your clear path forward regarding MICRO-transactions?
2. Will you keep the current prices, or are you going to lower them to more reasonable MICRO-transation levels? ($1 - $2)
3. Will these items be manufacturable so we can purchase blueprints from the store with AUR?
4. Can you make PI somehow necessary in the manufacture of such goods?
5. Can you put to rest any concern that you won't introduce "Skill Points for Purchase" through this store?
6. Can I haz your stuffs?

Consortium Agent
Posted - 2011.06.25 07:47:00 - [2196]
 

Star Wars Galaxies Shutting Down

See CCP... MMO's do fail.

Grey Griff
Posted - 2011.06.25 07:49:00 - [2197]
 

Originally by: Black Dranzer
Quote:

Are you moving beyond VANITY AUR items?







Give answers! Do it

NOW!







Trigz04
Posted - 2011.06.25 07:49:00 - [2198]
 

I don't think the blog addressed the majority of people's concerns.Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Constantinus Maximus
Paxian Expeditionary Force
Posted - 2011.06.25 07:50:00 - [2199]
 

Edited by: Constantinus Maximus on 25/06/2011 07:51:05
Originally by: Sylthi
FOR ALL THOSE STILL WONDERING HOW FAR MT WILL GO:

For all of you who keep asking the question: Are non-vanity items in CCP's plans to come to Eve MT? The reason that they are NOT answering you directly is that they HAVE already answered all of us directly in the confirmed authentic leaked Newsletter. We just weren't supposed to SEE it.

The author is speaking directly about Eve, and I quote DIRECTLY from page 9:

"Not all virtual purchases will focus on customization: some will simply be new items, ammunition, ships, etc. that can be purchased outright."

If you don't believe me, go read it for yourself.

They are NOT talking hypothetically. They are NOT discussing different options that might come to Eve. Do NOT believe all the Dev lies saying that they are.

They are talking about FACT in the Newsletter. They are talking about what is COMING to Eve VERY SOON (without the TM).

And, when we all complained about it, we were told by the Senior Producer and the CEO themselves to: STFU and GTFO. Oh, and I forgot we got a healthy dose of "How DARE you ungrateful scum question us your Lords and Masters?!?!?"

So yeah, CCP has VERY much answered the question about how far MT is going. Just read a little for yourself, you'll see.



Just truth. like the Hilter video says "They shouldn't be ****ing surprised!! WoW did this 3 years ago!!".
If you read/watch CCPs messages over the last 4 years you see it shift sharply 3 years ago then just get more into groupthink.

Originally by: Troy LS
boycott sony till they drop Dust?


It is stillborn now regardless. They do have the backstory of Sansha kidnappings to provide DUST bots though for the 3 people playing (plan B).

Matunaga
Minmatar
Seetouristik und Soziales
Posted - 2011.06.25 07:51:00 - [2200]
 

Originally by: PsyBlade
not sure if it has been posted yet here, but read this

Quote:
Currently we are seeing _very predictable feedback_ on what we are doing. Having the perspective of having done this for a decade, I can tell you that this is one of the moments where we look at what our players do and less of what they say. Innovation takes time to set in and the predictable reaction is always to resist change.





Well... as long as players won through Incarna equals players lost to ccp all's well. Realize ccp has no attachment to you as a playerbase as you might feel attached to eve - their only concern is about revenue, that's what Hilmar stated quite clearly (52 Monocles sold... revenue... etc.).

So it all boils down to: don't rage, quit.

There's some hope in this email, though: it was leaked on purpose - as was this memorandum before. So, there is some kind of resistance inside ccp too.

Constantinus Maximus
Paxian Expeditionary Force
Posted - 2011.06.25 07:53:00 - [2201]
 

Edited by: Constantinus Maximus on 25/06/2011 07:54:06
Originally by: Matunaga

There's some hope in this email, though: it was leaked on purpose - as was this memorandum before. So, there is some kind of resistance inside ccp too.


Frustrated cornered people at the end of their ropes.

edit: Which CCP will witchhunt for tomorrow, once again missing the point that they need to act, 3 days ago, :18months: ago, 3 years ago.

Korerin Mayul
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.25 07:54:00 - [2202]
 

FYI guys, Hilmar's e-mail was a leak of a communication internally and probably to the shareholders as-well.

i have been involved in a few IRL big company failcascades (not my fault, honest) and the messaging in Hilmars comms is exactly what a CEO needs to say right now.
Rest assured 'Fearless' is probably not a quality shared by most CCP-ers right now: We have ruined the weekends of a lot of people, some didnt deserve it, some did.

I awate a statment from the CSM, i hope it contains some profanity

Mauya
Posted - 2011.06.25 07:54:00 - [2203]
 

CCP you're betraying us, it results in we betray you for your monthly income.


- 2 accounts. Bye

Kavin Alavandar
Extropy Dianoetics
Posted - 2011.06.25 07:54:00 - [2204]
 

Edited by: Kavin Alavandar on 25/06/2011 07:54:46
Originally by: Van Flegg
Unsubbed. It's clear by that e-mail certain bigwigs in CCP aren't even bothering to listen to us. The only thing Hilmar is intrested in is increase/decrease in revenue. Money is the only voice he hears in terms of wether something is a success or failure in Eve. Player out-cry doesn't matter - after all, we always protest change, right?
Well, no kidding revenue is the best measure. Why should it matter to them if they're getting an infinitesimal part of it from someone other than yourself?

Some people have an awfully high opinion of their subscriptions.

Jim Lovell
Gallente
Divine Power.
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2011.06.25 07:54:00 - [2205]
 

You guys need to stop smacking the guys in CCP , omg every post is self opinionated self important i deserve everything how dare you instantly throwing **** at CCP , how dare you you have this game ONLY because of them stop whinin g that MT will ruin your prescious bloddy pvp i see it always any chance to attack and your all ALWAYS in there, jesus grow up you ungratful lot ..

CCP you rule Very Happy

Kalestia Barrak
Posted - 2011.06.25 07:56:00 - [2206]
 

Originally by: Kavin Alavandar
When developers listen to crapfests like this, terrible things happen. Hence exactly what Hilmar said. So by all means, let your subscriptions run out. You are not important. I am not important. EVE is legion, so to speak. CCP is ‘listening’ to how the features work, not how scared people are of them.

It's the only reliable way to handle an MMO, especially with crowds possessed of an attitude like this one. What happens on the fora is next to worthless in comparison to how the matters discussed ultimately pan out in the game.

Simply:

results > rhetoric



Absolutely right.

Wasn't supposed to end this way.

Ais Hellia
Posted - 2011.06.25 07:58:00 - [2207]
 

Edited by: Ais Hellia on 25/06/2011 07:58:18
Originally by: Jim Lovell
you have this game ONLY because of them Very Happy


and they have this game ONLY because of us

Elayae
Gallente
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Posted - 2011.06.25 07:59:00 - [2208]
 

Please hire Tippia, Liang and Akita for they are in touch with the community and you are definitely out.

Originally by: CCP Zulu
Incarna - which by the way is one of our more smooth and successful expansions, not to mention absolutely gorgeous -


Yes maybe everything went smoothly internally, but externally it is not so good. Half my corp has turned CQ off for not working properly or have video cards that are overheating or other things. You can guess that if half of the members of my corp have trouble running it, the other pilots of EVE would also have some difficulty.

It seems to me that CCP Pan and CCP Zulu have been used as pawns to address some concerns of the EVE community. Please let the person responsible have the guts to come forward and not hide behind his pawns, best would be the CEO himself. Let this person publicly denounce the fact that micro-transactions are not going beyond vanity items! Not addressing this important concern has fueled my fear that micro-transactions beyond vanity are also going to be implemented in Dust 514 and will influence EVE indirectly or worse directly. The internal letter is a dangerous step, for why do you want to speculate on it if it's a no no in the first place? Pilots will calm down when this issue is addressed.

I see no reason not to denounce the micro-transactions beyond vanity for EVE publicly, unless there is something going on that takes us there!



Please read the signs of the EVE community in this thread and answer them as quickly as possible.
Also read what Tippia wrote and hire her. http://eve.beyondreality.se/NeXCQResponse.html

Kavin Alavandar
Extropy Dianoetics
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:01:00 - [2209]
 

Edited by: Kavin Alavandar on 25/06/2011 08:05:32
Originally by: Ais Hellia
Edited by: Ais Hellia on 25/06/2011 07:58:18
Originally by: Jim Lovell
you have this game ONLY because of them Very Happy

and they have this game ONLY because of us
Because they have customers, but there's no special reason those customers have to include you.

EVE is CCP's project, their vision. You/we just happen to have liked it. It really gets my goat when players of any game act like the developers are their employees.

Altan Mi
Academy of the Atomic Phoenix
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:05:00 - [2210]
 

Gamers don't understand much of how a company is run is appears. Time to /quit the drama and login and play the game which is exactly the same as last week, except with cooler turret effects (station environment /off).

Diotima Saraki
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:07:00 - [2211]
 

Originally by: Elayae
Please let the person responsible have the guts to come forward and not hide behind his pawns, best would be the CEO himself. Let this person publicly denounce the fact that micro-transactions are not going beyond vanity items! Not addressing this important concern has fueled my fear that micro-transactions beyond vanity are also going to be implemented in Dust 514 and will influence EVE indirectly or worse directly.

CCP's CEO Hilmar has already spoken:

Quote:
— Email Starts—-

Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 18:16:54 -0400
To: [email protected]
Subject: ccp ceo global msg sent today
From: [email protected]
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=”UTF-8″
Message-Id: <[email protected]>

sent by hilmar to ccp global list-

(strt)

We live in interesting times; in fact CCP is the kind of company that if things get repetitive we instinctively crank it up a notch. That, we certainly have done this week. First of we have Incarna, an amazing technological and artistic achievement. A vision from years ago realized to a point that no one could have imaged but a few months ago. It rolls out without a hitch, is in some cases faster than what we had before, this is the pinnacle of professional achievement. For all the noise in the channel we should all stand proud, years from now this is what people will remember.

But we have done more, not only have we redefined the production quality one can apply to virtual worlds with the beautiful Incarna but we have also defined what it really means to make virtual reality more meaningful than real life when it comes to launching our new virtual goods currency, Aurum.

Naturally, we have caught the attention of the world. Only a few weeks ago we revealed more information about DUST 514 and now we have done it again by committing to our core purpose as a company by redefining assumptions. After 40 hours we have already sold 52 monocles, generating more revenue than any of the other items in the store.

This we have done after months of research by a group of highly competent professionals, soliciting input and perspective from thought leaders and experts in and around our industry. We have communicated our intention here internally in very wide circles through the Virtual Economy Summit presentation at the GSM, our Fearless newsletter, sprint reviews, email lists and multiple other channels. This should not come as a surprise to anyone.

Currently we are seeing _very predictable feedback_ on what we are doing. Having the perspective of having done this for a decade, I can tell you that this is one of the moments where we look at what our players do and less of what they say. Innovation takes time to set in and the predictable reaction is always to resist change.

We went out with a decisive strategy on pricing and we will stay the course and not flip flop around or knee jerk react to the predictable. That is not saying nothing will change, on the contrary, in fact we know that success in this space is through learning and adapting to _what is actually happening_ and new knowledge gained in addition to what we knew before and expected.

All that said, I couldn't be prouder of what we have accomplished as a company, changing the world is hard and we are doing it as so many times before! Stay the course, we have done this many times before.

(end)

jk scowling
Sane Industries Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:08:00 - [2212]
 

"Zulu: The employees who submitted articles to that newsletter did exactly what they were asked to do, write about theories and opinions from an exaggerated stand."

Ok so the exaggerated stand of Anti MT is "It's ok as long as it's for vanity items"

Ais Hellia
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:08:00 - [2213]
 

Originally by: Kavin Alavandar
Edited by: Kavin Alavandar on 25/06/2011 08:03:49
Originally by: Ais Hellia
Edited by: Ais Hellia on 25/06/2011 07:58:18
Originally by: Jim Lovell
you have this game ONLY because of them Very Happy

and they have this game ONLY because of us
Because they have customers, but there's no special reason those customers have to include you.

EVE is CCP's vision, their project. You/we just happen to have liked it. It really gets my goat when players of any game act like the developers are their employees.


ATM i can only wish them luck with a NEW playerbase they'r aiming at

they really deserve a place among such popular games like AoC and WAR with constantly increasing numbers of players
oh wait...

Rasz Lin
Caldari
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:08:00 - [2214]
 

unsub, play with PLEX, there are PLEX stockpiles able to sustain whole eve population for few years on the market.
Sub is CCPs direct safe steady profit.
PLEX on the market is a liability, its profit they already spend on WOD dolls and DUST.

Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:10:00 - [2215]
 

Edited by: Patient 2428190 on 25/06/2011 08:11:39
I guess in a way its admirable to stick by your guns ugh

:lolcustomers:

Originally by: Rasz Lin
unsub, play with PLEX, there are PLEX stockpiles able to sustain whole eve population for few years on the market.
Sub is CCPs direct safe steady profit.
PLEX on the market is a liability, its profit they already spend on WOD dolls and DUST.


That convinces them via lolmetrics (your account still being on and paid for) that its :::WURKING::

jk scowling
Sane Industries Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:11:00 - [2216]
 

Also didn't realise how awesome Incarna was, cheers for clearing that up Zulu, I'll stop whining now.


Zulu: "People have been shocked by the price range in the NeX store, but you should remember that we are talking about clothes."

Oh, ok, at least they won't try selling spaceships through the Nex store, don't think anyone who plays can afford billions of dollars Rolling Eyes

Gydion
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:13:00 - [2217]
 

Edited by: Gydion on 25/06/2011 08:18:58
Stick to vanity items, be reasonable with the prices, dump the rest, player trust restored, problem solved, simple.

Seriously you go down this road and the game will die, im not just saying that its happened to mmo's before, named ones on this thread, star wars galaxies (officially closing end of the year), age of conan, warhammer online.

And dont bring up blizzard again they only do vanity items, and they do just fine.

EVE was the best damn mmo ive ever played, please please please listen to the players and dont mess it up.

Zey Nadar
Gallente
Unknown Soldiers
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:15:00 - [2218]
 

Edited by: Zey Nadar on 25/06/2011 08:20:44
Edited by: Zey Nadar on 25/06/2011 08:16:12
Originally by: Gnulpie

I think he believes the stuff he said, and it is not unreasonable stuff too.


Yes it is.

Quote:
People have been shocked by the price range in the NeX store, but you should remember that we are talking about clothes. Look at the clothes you are currently wearing in real life. Do you have any specific brands? Did you choose it because it was better quality than a no-name brand? Assume for a short while that you are wearing a pair of $1,000 jeans from some exclusive Japanese boutique shop. Why would you want to wear a pair of $1,000 jeans when you can get perfectly similar jeans for under $50? What do other people think about you when they see you wearing them? For some you will look like the sad culmination of vainness while others will admire you and think you are the coolest thing since sliced bread. Whichever it is, it is clear that by wearing clothes you are expressing yourself and that the price is one of the many dimensions that clothes possess to do that in addition to style and fit. You don't need to buy expensive clothes. In fact you don't need to buy any clothes. Whatever you choose to do reflects what you are and what you want others to think you are.


You cannot HONESTLY compare these items into real life clothing??! Virtual clothing that currently NOBODY ELSE CAN SEE?? Items that can be used ONLY IN ONE FRIKKING BOOTH INSTEAD OF THE GAMEWORLD which is the largest of all?? I have never witnessed a larger departure of common sense from MMO developer ever.

I do not like what you are using my subscription money for any more. I am losing faith that you are actually endeavouring to improve my game experience.

THIS IS NOT IT.

DO YOU PERSONALLY WALK AROUND IN 1000$ JEANS DO YOU??

PS. YOU COMPLETELY FAIL TO ANSWER THE MAIN QUESTION OF WHAT PEOPLE IN HERE HAVE ASKED: GOOD JOB COMMUNITY REPRESENTATIVE.

Kalestia Barrak
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:17:00 - [2219]
 

The only thing that matters at the end of the day are subscriptions. Everything boils down to that. Any justification CCP makes regarding the game is ultimately decided by whether or not it results in more or less subscribers.

No one person is going to warrant attention if their accounts are canceled. And I would not doubt for a minute that CCP would not flinch until accounts really do run out (such as the unsubbed but active one I use here) and do not renew.

So if anyone here really is annoyed at the direction that the game is taking, then vote with your wallet, and be done with it. Find a different game to enjoy in the meantime. Do something new. Take up a hobby. But make a choice, and follow through with it.

No doubt many people here unsubbed but will wait and see what unfolds. Maybe they'll renew in a month and never go inactive. Hilmar is right in observing that forum rage is nothing new, and the expansion is still young. There's plenty of time for the anger to die down.

We've invested years of our lives here. I have memories and friends I've collected in 6 years of playing this game. I imagined leaving on better terms than this. Incursion broke the camel's back for me. This might do it for others.

We're all here posting, hoping for that dev post that says "you know, we were wrong, we're going to go back and fix this. I've been clammoring for it all night. I'm hoping I can find it fun to fly my main again some day. But it may not come.

So everyone keep in mind what you post here and the promises and threats you make. Because until all of us start to hit their bottom line, these posts mean little. But perhaps more importantly, let go. Regardless of whether this expansion succeeds and fails, our disappointment and anger is not predicated on everyone else being unhappy, but whether we are still unhappy as well. We play EVE for enjoyment. If it no longer fulfills that desire, then find something that does, and be done with it. Be happy.

Hopefully EVE will get back on track and become fun again. And here's hoping that if it doesn't, that we all find something else that is.

Morar Santee
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:17:00 - [2220]
 

Edited by: Morar Santee on 25/06/2011 08:37:11
It's absolutely epic how more than 5000 posts in a thread started by CCP, and thousands more in others, didn't manage to get the point across to the senior producer of EVE Online.
Originally by: CCP Fallout
It's a waste of my time, which I could be spent gathering more feedback and talking with people making sure the player's perspective is being shared with people higher up the ladder [...]

A lot of your time must have been wasted indeed. Because that dev-blog doesn't address the community concerns. It just doesn't. At all. Period.

CCP Manifest even acknowledged he read the big yellow question, quoted it even:

WILL YOU INTRODUCE GAME ALTERING ITEMS IN THE "VANITY-STORE"?!

240 pages of uproar in that thread by now. CCP's reaction:
Originally by: CCP Zulu
Dear community,

**** you.

xoxo,
CCP Zulu

Well: **** you, too.


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