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RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.24 22:18:00 - [1081]

Originally by: McPod
Huge mistake, huuge!

from what we told them in the last thread and the time they had to prepare something this is not a mistake it is a deliberate insult

Posted - 2011.06.24 22:18:00 - [1082]

Originally by: CCP Zulu
we deployed Incarna - which by the way is one of our more smooth and successful expansions, not to mention absolutely gorgeous

Successful? Smooth? Have you not been paying attention at all? Also, awesome tooting of your own horn there. I am still more impressed with the ALT scaling option added to probing.

Originally by: CCP Zulu
Clueless is one of our company values.


Originally by: CCP Zulu
People have been shocked by the price range in the NeX store, but you should remember that we are talking about clothes.

You should remember that we are talking about VIRTUAL ITEMS that DO NOTHING. The whole paragraph that follows that is just...priceless. (OOOH, A PUN!)

Originally by: CCP Zulu
We will gradually introduce items at other price points, definitely lower and probably higher than what‘s in the store today.

Good luck with that.

Originally by: CCP Zulu
Whatever you choose to do reflects what you are and what you want others to think you are.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Posted - 2011.06.24 22:18:00 - [1083]

Congratulations CCP Zulu, you've just thrown a tanker of gasoline on a forest fire.

This blog is sadly EVERYTHING the community expected and rightly feared. There is not a single true apology in that dev blog. Not a single mention of being wrong and promising change. You can't honestly think the community will accept that? The fail of Incarna has management written all over it, yet CCP thinks so little of their customers we don't even get a response from Hilmar? Don't you see this solves NOTHING?!

And this protest isn'tjsut about micro-transactions. When crowds are fed up being ignored and mistreated they build up rage. And when they ignite they really around heroes like Helicity Boson and Liang Nuren, both now banned. Are you guys stupid?! Even Mubarak was smart enough not to try and put EL Baradei in prison.

Yet Zulu's post can be compared to Mubarak telling the people to go to their homes and stop protesting because there will be free elections over a year. Rolling Eyes

Are you at CCP really so dense you don't see what you're doing wrong here?

Yes we protest against micro-transactions. But again: when crowds really against something they use symbols. Most players are fine with micro-transactions as long as they are small and vanity-only. But we're protesting against it because it symbolizes our maltreatment by CCP's management and development.

We are being double-billed so CCP can go on and make more games we don't care about. There are plenty players that have already spend over a thousand dollar in subscription fees, yet all we get for an expansion is a vending-machine wrapped in eyecandy. Where are the fixes?

Is that your strategy for player-retention? Do you really believe that you can replace all the bittervets leaving by just attracting new players? SWG should have shown you how well that strategy works out. It doesn't!

But ok, fine! CCP needs money, we need our EVE-fix, so maybe we'll condone your stupid and overcomplicated vanity store. But sadly your guys at sales&marketing are incompentent fools who don't understand the first thing about
-transactions. It's all about taking away the financial barrier. You make money by charging little and selling a lot. Not the other way round.

So now we are paying CCP money on top of our subscription/PLEX(=time) so you can put a vendingmachine and a jacuzzi in our kitchen. But barely anyone is using the vendinmachine because of the stupid pricing. So we ask ourselves why the hell are we putting up with this nonsense that's the focus of this content-starved update? You say it's to make hard-needed money, yet you do a horrible job at it!

It would have been so much smarter to start the NeX store with items costing almost nothing, easing your customers into buying these items, getting them used to the fact they spent Aurum. But I guess that's just too much common sense for people like Zinfandel. Your SR Sales&Marketing who doesn't know the first thing about EVE.

I've been with EVE since a month into beta. I love this game. But I'm really getting to a point where start to wish that EVE completely goes down in flames.

Things need to CHANGE, and perhaps the only way the players can achieve that, is by first destroying EVE and CCP. Afterall: CCP was a much better company when it was still small and most employees actually played the game.

I say we give it a try. Maybe then Hilmar will deem us worthy of a response.

Cake Majestic
Quafe Company Logistics
Posted - 2011.06.24 22:19:00 - [1084]

That was the saddest dev blog I have ever read.

Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
Posted - 2011.06.24 22:19:00 - [1085]

I've been watching all the rage, emotion, threats of unsubbing while thinking about my own response. CCP Fallout mentioned that posts here would be watched so I'll try and make my own opinions clear and not based on rage.

Incarna - Captain's Quarters

It was made clear to those that paid attention that the CQ was a technology test. A chance to put it under the strain of 50,000 pilots. I'm approaching the CQ as just that and not a failure to deliver content. Personally, I spend a lot of time in station while working my day job and like the couch and the big screen TV over just floating in my ship.

Even as a couch pilot I agree for RP and performance reasons that a pilot should have a choice to stay on board a ship while in station instead of disembarking each time.

Incarna Deployment - Mac Edition

The Mac deployment was not smooth by any stretch. Every other patch that I can recall was smoother for me except for the rough days after Trinity, the first version to run on Mac. The full version of Incarna cleared up a lot of problems and things are now running smooth on my two systems but at greatly reduced graphic levels. It seems to me that the patch version was old but I've yet to receive an answer on what happened. Clearly there was a failure in the deployment process.

The other issue with the Mac deployment were the changes to the Transgaming/Cider wrapper. It was clear 3 weeks before deployment that things had changed but no guidance was provided on how to deal with the changes. It took trial and error from the Mac community to figure things out, again. There has still been no response.

There are some graphic issues remaining but bugs are to be expected and I hope they will be resolved in a timely manner.

Fallout had kind words for the Mac team at CCP. I'd love for them to communicate with us directly. Please join us in the Mac section of the forum.

The Noble Exchange

I don't have much experience with other MMOs and with microtransactions at all. I've heard the dangers from other players about how games have been ruined but I have formed some opinions.

We are not buying real world products. We should not be paying real world prices. Instead items need to be priced consistently with other items in the EVE economy. 450 mil for pants is emersion breaking. But I can see spending 10 mil for an entire wardrobe. I don't know though. Scale is out of whack however you look at it.

Items have to be vanity only and NEVER allow for purchasing of an advantage. CCP has done well to create a player drive economy but is about to totally trash it if any of the suggestions in the Fearless newsletter come true.


- Incarna is a test and I'm eager for more.
- Making disembarking an option will satisfy a lot of complaints.
- Pay to win will kill EVE for me.
- Drop NeX prices by a factor of 10 and keep vanity only.
- Have the Mac team and/or Transgaming stop by and respond to the Mac forums a few times each week, especially when big changes are coming up.

Tiny Mongo
Posted - 2011.06.24 22:19:00 - [1086]

tldr: Dev's are acting more grown up then this vocal bunch. Cool your jets and have a civil discussion.

If I had to give the dev blog a grade it would probably be a D. Pretty much missed the point and only confirmed what the more level headed players were talking about - internal = not official policy give it time. While being controversial in nature some are still willing to give CCP the benefit of the doubt.

If I had to give the player response a grade - F. They may have come up with a better response if yall hadn't spent 200 pages raging at them and slinging personal attacks they may have been more apt to give feedback in the thread. Instead you alienated the community team all together and have made it an "us against them" situation. Honestly for how mature people in EVE like to think they are starting an internet spaceship riot is about as immature as you can get.

Posted - 2011.06.24 22:19:00 - [1087]

When I want a dev to talk **** to me like I'm a 10 year-old, I'll let you know. Until then, DIAF, Zulu.

Posted - 2011.06.24 22:19:00 - [1088]

CCP Zulu failed to deliver on any points that have been brought up. There has been zero reassurance from CCP on any of the current issues that the players are having with MT, Incarna, etc.

I mostly just scrolled as fast I could through the pages of that poor example of an apology threadnaught, but even I could catch what the yellow, bolded, and enlarged font said as it went by.

I've unsubbed all of my accounts, so once the time is up I'm gone. It's obvious by your lack of attention to our most pressing issues means that you do intend to do whatever you like to the game with zero regard for your players or our wallets.

Minus 3 accounts CCP.

And you say this was the smoothest release. I would hope so, you removed functionality from the game, and gave us one room of bull**** that instantly causes graphics fans to spin at maximum speed (assuming your machine can even load it of course) until you leave station. And to make it even more smooth, you gave us some bull**** pixelated blurry looking cropped wallpaper as a station environment if we choose to not load the station environment. And of course we are still losing all of the functionality of double clicking for cargo, dragging ships, seeing active ship, etc, etc.

But hey, on the bright side, at least you know how your emo vampire game expansion rollouts will go. Assuming of course there are enough of us eve players left for you to milk to continue development.

leth ghost
Posted - 2011.06.24 22:19:00 - [1089]

omg so you ignored anu input on this dev blog ****ing ******s ccp

Posted - 2011.06.24 22:19:00 - [1090]

If CCP Zulu was in this position at some corporation where clients can just take their business somewhere else quickly, and sent this sort of E-mail to his clients, there is no measure of how fast he would get fired.

CHEWBACCAwas aWookie
Posted - 2011.06.24 22:19:00 - [1091]

I thought I was offended by the leaked newsletter until I read the dev blog. I really hope that it is not CCP's PR stance to condescend to their player base. I find it to be an insult to my intelligence that CCP Zulu would actually go as far to explain how the price of the object dictates it's rarity. I'm a college educated adult I don't need a game dev to explain supply and demand to me....

Furthermore, I speak for myself (and probably quite a few other players) when I say that it is not the vanity items that bother me, it is not the CQ that bothers me, it is the idea that a year ago it was promised that there will be no MT in game especially involving items that give players willing to pay real money the ability to "Buy game skill" and then this newsletter is leaked basically outlining a possibility of introducing the very same items they promised would never have a place in the galaxy of EVE. I understand that it is an internal newsletter not meant for us to see and that it was allegedly intended to fuel a debate. However, because that promise was made to ensure the integrity of our much loved pass time there shouldn't even be a debate over whether or not to introduce modules, ships, and especially not more fitting slots to the NEX store. YOU NEED TO STICK TO YOUR GUNS AND KEEP YOUR PROMISES. No amount of pandering and beating around the bush will satisfy those of us outraged by CCP's deception. We want to be ensured that MT Will forever be restricted to arbitrary vanity items that offer absolutely no game progression (ie. faction standing, ships, modules, ammo, etc .).

I think that many of us have had experience's (apperently more experience than CCP has had) with games that revolve around MT. The games that exist based on a MT system are both completely trashy money grabbing mechanisms and also FREE TO PLAY.

I can say without a doubt that many of us are very worried that the time and subscription money we have invested in EVE will become meaningless via comparison to a carebear with mommy or daddy's credit card. For this very reason many players have already vowed to unsub to avoid wasting time and subscription fee's in a game that seems to be moving in a direction that will destroy the player base (after all EVE is supposed to be player driven..right?).

I believe that Zulu's request to stop the "****storm" could simply be answered by "well you reap what you sow" and sowing seeds of doubt by even debating adding a system that was promised to never have a place in our world of internet spaceships is reaping the "****storm" of outrage. If it was just the Dev's job to propose these ideas then it is obviously the person who gave those devs that job who needs to address the issues caused by their indiscretion.

To put it as simply as I can: You've just poked the wrong bear CCP.

NQX Innovations
Posted - 2011.06.24 22:19:00 - [1092]


Fix Nix
Posted - 2011.06.24 22:20:00 - [1093]

Originally by: youneverguess

Are you moving beyond VANITY AUR items?

Dan Kaneda
Kaneda's Evil Ninja Organization
Posted - 2011.06.24 22:20:00 - [1094]

Edited by: Dan Kaneda on 24/06/2011 22:21:13

Are you moving beyond VANITY AUR items?

The lack of answer concerning the non vanity items in the Noble Store is pretty much an answer in itself. "We won't answer that because there WILL be non vanity items in the NeX but we don't want to lose some of our costumer just now. Please pay again until you are facing the wall and decide to unsuscribe."

Brutus B
Posted - 2011.06.24 22:20:00 - [1095]

To Zulu's devblog section called "fearlesS":
I do not seem to be in the majority with the eve community sharing on the forum, but I understand what you guys do in private is a creative process, and that you have to spitball at times to get that ball rolling, and that not everything is said is going to be fully initiated in the policy and direction of this property called Eve. I do agree that indivuals at ccp should not be harrassed, or threatened, or mudslinged on over expressing ideas, and doing their jobs behind closed doors--but it's probably a good thing all you guys use handles because gamers aren't always the most mature bunch. Anyone that's ever ambushed a noob in a drake can atest to that fact. I think some of these guys seem completely out of control over all this, as I've been able to mostly ignore it, and play incursions and do everything I've been doing before incarna rolled out. That hasn't been effect at all (for me) so far.

MT, Pricing--regarding Incarna stuff specifically:
I was keeping an open mind about MT stuff, and still am, but I looked at prices, and the current thinking at CCP can think it's a little outrageous.
In a typical MT ONLY game, 15 to 30 dollars will get me a pet dragon, a pet dog, a pet eagle, a pet goldfish, a castle to live in, and tons of furniture. In eve which also requires subsciptions, it might not even get me an eyepiece, not that I really want one.
I think you guys need to come to an understanding about Micro-Transaction.
Micro means SMALL, Tiny, Insignificant. (Like a value menu at a fast food resturant.) If you don't price micro, you won't get millions of micro transactions. If you actually think you are selling REAL NIKE's in a fake game--you are delusional. If I can buy a 59.99 version of battlefield 3, OR a virutual skirt with the Auro equivilent--I ain't buying the skirt. The scale seems completely off. MT offerings by ccp needs to fall in line with 1.99 per download, 3, 5, 10 dollars, 15 maybe, 30 possibly.... but the value scale has to be there are you're going to be producing items that don't sell and wasting time on vanity efforts no real thinking person is realyl going to want. Don't drink the coolaide, and think EVE items that are for sale for AURO are real items, they aren't, they are virtual items. "Eve is real" is a friendly jest, not to be taken seriously, but I fear you guys have, when you start talking about how these shirts and skirts and eyepieces should be comparied to what someone might buy at a high-end clothing store. They aren't even comparable to the clotches I'd buy at walmart.

It's alright though CCP, I won't buy what isn't attractive price. It's your loss.I just keep playing eve until it's broken. I am concerned though about the future of Dust is this is the outlook of CCP, that these items are real, and therefore customers need to be willing to pay godless ammounts of money in order to obtain them. Battlefied 3 is coming out, Skyrm is comong out, both competitively priced, both will keep me entertained a whole year or more respectively each. The bottom line is me, and a bunch of other players don't "NEED" your MT items. The only way to get any of us to want them is the cool + attractive price factors. I'm so unimpressed with what's avaiable right now that I am indrectly supporting a boycott of any and all items that aren't competively priced with other items of similar value in simular offerings by other game companies.
Without the cool or the good price together, anything you put in that store is going to be eh? MEH. So, just remember,


It works by being replicated over and over again. If your virtual items cost as much as real items, people will just buy real items in instead, and call you ******ed to your face, or behind your back. Probably a good idea to Rethink PRICES! That siad:

Morgan Polaris
Posted - 2011.06.24 22:20:00 - [1096]

Yes, AUR will be used to buy in-game advantages.

After all, you don't build a store and introduce a new currency in a player-driven economy if it's going to be used to sell stuff to, what, 50 people (if that)?

Solomunio Kzenig
Indicium Technologies
Hephaestus Forge Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.24 22:20:00 - [1097]

Edited by: Solomunio Kzenig on 24/06/2011 22:24:53
Edited by: Solomunio Kzenig on 24/06/2011 22:20:21
Originally by: Shiori Takahashi
Zulu's Blog is quite possibly the most insulted I've ever been as a paying customer for a service.

^^This. Zulu's Blog demonstrates the complete disconnect between CCP senior management and the playerbase.

mobius nm
Empyrean Engineering
Posted - 2011.06.24 22:20:00 - [1098]

Anyone else beginning to think this is all a ploy by CCP to clear out the older playerbase who remember the old CCP promises?

If they pull it off, they'd be left with docile masses to milk for cash at will till they kill the game off completely.

Recycled Heroes
Posted - 2011.06.24 22:20:00 - [1099]

Edited by: Siiee on 24/06/2011 22:26:07
What an incredibly insulting response.

In the first section you tell us what we already know (what it is) and then tell us that we are bad people for the amazingly strong negative response.

Guess what, there is your exaggerated contrasting point. Debate that.

In the second section you reinforce our fears about as strongly as anyone could, all while missing the point. I'm so upset I can't even find the words so I'm not going to try. Every single word in your second section is enraging, and it is the perfect distillation of everything that is wrong right now.

I now only wish that I could suspend my accounts without waiting for them to expire.

It really seems to me that you do not want your old customers anymore. If that's the case then just go whole hog with it. Tell us outright what is expected of us and the real endgame for you AUR plans if nothing else was in your way and let those of us who feel strongly about it leave. It will be much less trouble (tho still with plenty of kicking and screaming) than attempting to drag us along for the ride.

Posted - 2011.06.24 22:20:00 - [1100]


Are you moving beyond VANITY AUR items?

knobber Jobbler
Holding Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.24 22:21:00 - [1101]

200+ page threadnaught and all I got was this lousy tshirt.

Originally by: Roonia
If CCP Zulu was in this position at some corporation where clients can just take their business somewhere else quickly, and sent this sort of E-mail to his clients, there is no measure of how fast he would get fired.

I'd have sacked it.

Hailey Sunweaver
Murientor Tribe
Posted - 2011.06.24 22:21:00 - [1102]

This blog was just pointless and addresses NOTHING that we have been asking about.

Taleris Kline
Posted - 2011.06.24 22:21:00 - [1103]

Originally by: Garreth Vlox
Originally by: Taleris Kline
Wow, this is supposedly the best MMO community and this is what we have to show for ourselves.

Point #1: If I was Hilmer I would order the forums shut down until the community can get a healthy dose of perspective. The major question of "Will there be non-vanity item in the NEX store?" is not a topic of this dev blog. CCP Zulu clarified as much and still the community ignores the point of the dev blog. THIS IS A GAME!. THIS IS A HOBBY! Do you guys really like what you've turned into over a hobby? Can you really look in the mirror and be proud of raging this much over a hobby? This is how riots happen after a sporting event. How silly do these look? We have it right here.

Poing #2: A better question to be asking is acknowledging that this is not the blog with the answer to THE QUESTION and asking who is responsible for it.

Point #3: Subscribers do not write the paychecks for CCP employees. NEWSFLASH! Those checks are written by CCP incorporated. Does anyone truely know where CCP gets all of their money from? Threatening CCP employees paychecks is not only wrong but just shows immaturity.

There are ways to disagree respectfully and there are ways to look like a total jerk. I'm seeing many more jerks than people with something intelligent to say.

DEV alt detected post with your main YARRRR!!

I admit it. I am a developer. I work with a company that does display development for helicopters. However, I am not a CCP developer and it is an ad hominum attack upon me to insinuate that I am a CCP dev alt.

Can you logically disagree with any of the points above?

Enguerrand DeCoucy
Posted - 2011.06.24 22:22:00 - [1104]

Yeah CCP, keep thinking you are just like the rest of gaming industry that depends on large numbers of casual gamers. How many customers have to walk before your mgt pays attention? I'll be joining them if you keep avoiding the question.

I like the defensive posture of that statement. It helps so much.

Posted - 2011.06.24 22:22:00 - [1105]

which by the way is one of our more smooth and successful expansions

yo dude, what planet you live on !!!???

modules not working, implants dissapering, GPU´s overheating, ppl unable to log on, ppl unable to run multible clients...

How can you call this SUCCESSFUL EXPANSION

Rer Eirikr
Clearly Compensating
Concordiat Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.24 22:22:00 - [1106]

You have cancelled your EVE Online subscription.

Your account will be suspended at the end of the current subscription period, expiring on ****.

Your characters will be stored safely and be ready for you to enjoy again should you decide to return.

If you feel that this cancellation has been made in error, you can quickly and easily reopen your account by clicking below.

Marcus Vorenius
Task Force 42
Posted - 2011.06.24 22:22:00 - [1107]

Edited by: Marcus Vorenius on 25/06/2011 05:51:50

Ranka Mei
Posted - 2011.06.24 22:23:00 - [1108]

Originally by: KrustyKrab
I have cancelled all 7 accounts. 4 are 6-month subs with various end dates. 3 are PLEX and will expire in about 36 days (I'm sad now that I JUST re-PLEXED on all 3 =/)

Seems everyone in our alliance is doing the same. I highly suggest everyone that pays a recurring sub goes into their account mgmt and cancels their sub. This will be instant hard data to those in charge at CCP that this...whatever this is, isn't going to end well for them if they continue down this path of denial, lying, and not having a clue that there's a massive rift between players and developers.

Threadnaught doesn't even begin to describe this event. As Helicity said, it is a singularity event. When the bright flash comes, don't bother covering your eyes. Embrace it as the moment when a very large number of us have the biggest gaming moment of our lives. Both players and developers. We will talk about this for years in a way that makes the T20 event seem like an insignificant event.

I'm incredibly insulted by this devblog. I'm incredibly insulted by CCP's response over EVERYTHING right now. It is an utter slap in the face. I don't profess to know the inner workings of CCP, and I can only assume it is typical of other game developers/publishers in the sense that at some point money becomes more important than the products that are being sold to willing, passionate customers. Customers who absolutely do NOT want to believe this is happening are suddenly living the nightmare.

I've played since beta 2003. My wife earned her college degree doing homework every night while mining, missioning, etc. We've subbed repeatedly over the years, coming back to Eve when things like wormholes and T3's were introduced, and cancelled when things like T20 happened. If this is not resolved to our liking, this will be the last time we ever sub Eve again. Seven accounts isn't much in the big scheme of things, but that is $100+ per month that can go to paying off a mortgage early, saving up for a vacation, or playing other MMO's that haven't hit the failscade that Eve suddenly has.

I've rarely posted on these forums. I'm no one important, this isn't even my main (already cancelled him and couldn't be bothered to post with him honestly, this is the last post I'll make until something, or, nothing happens. I'm not even going to tell you what I think you need to do to resolve this. I think you can get a pretty good idea based on the massive firebomb that has exploded in your midst.

This post will get lost in the rabble and walls of text, but I'm ok with that. I hope someone at CCP reads it. The ride over the years has been incredible. No other game has given me the adrenaline rush and excitement as pvp in Eve has. I will miss it. But I won't be lied to, deceived, insulted, or placated. I won't even demand answers or satisfaction. What you DO will speak louder than anything you can say at this point.

Look at what is happening in Jita right now. Amarr. Look at what is happening on your forums. I'm seeing players post that I haven't seen post in years. I'm seeing in-game enemies, friends, alliance mates, etc posting. It is a shame. A downright shame.

An incredible shame.

Very good post, mate! And I loved the metaphor about the bright flash. +1

And yep, I was in Jita, protesting like so many others. It was epic, and I was glad to be a part of that.

Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.06.24 22:23:00 - [1109]

Edited by: Ga''len on 24/06/2011 22:23:27
CCP Zulu,

Thank you for taking the time to address some of the community's concerns, but the main issue here was missed. It's the elephant in the room that has to be addressed to calm the community and began the healing of trust between CCP Games and it's player community.

"Will micro transactions be used for NON vanity items in EVE Online?"

It's a simple yes or no question and CCP Games needs to use specific language when answering. Seriously, it's time to answer the question now.


ing SpeedyJ
Posted - 2011.06.24 22:23:00 - [1110]

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

OK if u want war, u can get it, lets money talks... I am waiting one week for constructive answer or -3 accounts. YARRRR!!

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