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VKhaun Vex
Posted - 2011.06.24 19:20:00 - [1]
 

I'm new to EVE and I'm watching the whole Incarna thing... is the community really trying to crash Jita right now because of a cash shop and losing hangar view? I've seen some much, much, worse patches in my time playing games that got much weaker response.

Dungeons and Dragons Online actually took subs from people for something like eleven months and used it all to go free to play with only a tiny token patch. I think that one somehow got more support then this did. Shocked

I tried asking in game and people just called me ignorant and clueless.

No ****.

That's why I'm asking.

If you can't actually articulate what you're mad about, who can listen?

Morae
Posted - 2011.06.24 19:29:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Morae on 24/06/2011 19:29:56
Quote:
is the community really trying to crash Jita right now because of a cash shop and losing hangar view?


No. It is somewhat more complicated than that.

-Losing hangars.
-Cash shop, which might be okay if they could promise it would remain vanity only, but they won't.
-The leaked newsletter indicating that said cash shop will not remain vanity-only.
-The past lies, exposed by the news letter, stating that the cash shop WOULD be vanity-only.
-Banning of popular players for what is seen as "political reasons".
-The amount of development time that has been "wasted" (in the view of many) on internet space-barbies instead of internet space-ships.
-The lack of a serious response from CCP thus far about these issues.
-Performance issues in Incarna that were not present previously.

This also comes on the heels of some other unpopular announcements, such as the API licensing fee. While they backpedaled on that issue pretty quickly, there has been a succession of unpopular issues lately, and what you are seeing now is the cumulative effect of that.

Blue Weather
Posted - 2011.06.24 19:32:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Blue Weather on 24/06/2011 19:33:54
Welcome to EVE! I'm sorry that you had to come in during a time of such nonsense. I'm very new myself (only a month old).

It's hard to believe, but there are actually a number of very legitimate (and mostly ongoing) concerns that Incarna has kind of brought to a head. It's just hard to tell amidst all the mindless drivel that many are spewing on these forums. I'm afraid, though, that the legitimate concerns will be lost because so many people are intent on wasting their time posting silly, immature comments.

I suggest your read this:
http://eve.beyondreality.se/NeXCQResponse.html

The author explains her concerns in a mature, deliberate fashion. I do not agree with all of them, but I understand her perspective, and I think everyone should take a look at it


Private Whisperz
Posted - 2011.06.24 19:33:00 - [4]
 

Nice read that sums up the general opinion quite nicely, if you want more not to emotional info on what is going on

http://eve.beyondreality.se/NeXCQResponse.html

King Pleasure
Posted - 2011.06.24 19:36:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: King Pleasure on 24/06/2011 19:40:30
Mid last year, CCP decided they wanted to include RMT for vanity items. Few weeks later they announced PLEX for Remap (Which in essense means people could buy SP). People got ****ed off. CCP backed off that and promised Vanity only in the cash store.

Fast forward to the release of this expansion and lots of people are ****ed off at a few things.

1) WIS is manditory. Originally it was to be an optional feature.
2) Preformance in WIS is craptastic if you don't have a somewhat decent rig.
3) RMT vanity items are more expensive than their real world counter-parts.
4) In introduction of AUR has inflated the PLEX market.
5) Bad communicated leading up to the release of the expansion. (Like trying to sell a ship for RMT without requiring the player to trade in an existing ship of the same type(and thereby creating a mineral faucet)).
6) general failure to manage expectations.

Following this fairly closely was a leak of a internal news letter in which there is serious discussion about how the playerbase will react to the idea of selling a 'win' so to speak. RMT for in game advantage and how they wanted to go ahead with it regardless of player backlash, which they thought would be large. (and clearly is)

Then they banned a few of the pillers of the forum community and that just ****ed off more people. And after starting a thread they've failed to follow through with any real responses to peoples concerns. What they have 'addressed' they've skirted around the real complaints people have.

I probably missed a few things there but that's the general picture.

Tarkadahl
Minmatar
Albatross Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.24 19:39:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Tarkadahl on 24/06/2011 19:40:37
Originally by: VKhaun Vex
I'm new to EVE and I'm watching the whole Incarna thing... is the community really trying to crash Jita right now because of a cash shop and losing hangar view? I've seen some much, much, worse patches in my time playing games that got much weaker response.

Dungeons and Dragons Online actually took subs from people for something like eleven months and used it all to go free to play with only a tiny token patch. I think that one somehow got more support then this did. Shocked

I tried asking in game and people just called me ignorant and clueless.

No ****.

That's why I'm asking.

If you can't actually articulate what you're mad about, who can listen?


Personally speaking, after reading through the so-called "newsletter", I found it very amusing, informative and thought provoking. For some reason there's a lot of melodrama going on at the moment surrounding MT's, which seems to be largely based on what COULD happen, rather than what IS happening. Exchange rates for items can be easily fixed.

Now, as for the supposed multi-boxing performance issues with CQ, those can be sorted one way or the other. The same probably goes for re-introducing the original Hanger view. It's hardly worth people getting their nickers in a twist over it.

After reading through the latest threads it seems apparent to me that there's quite a few egocentric venom spitting drama queens in Eve Online who need a reality check.

For one thing, if you're computer can't run the CQ, get with the times and spend some real life money and stop being cheapskates. And if you want to multi-box, live with the static wallpaper for a while and see what tomorrow brings.

It seems to me that CCP may have FINALLY realised that Eve Online is far behind in terms of offering a package that appeals to an audience that isn't just comprised of PVP'ers.

But of course, all of this is just my own opinion :)

moneykeeper
Posted - 2011.06.24 19:39:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: VKhaun Vex
I'm new to EVE and I'm watching the whole Incarna thing... is the community really trying to crash Jita right now because of a cash shop and losing hangar view? I've seen some much, much, worse patches in my time playing games that got much weaker response.

Dungeons and Dragons Online actually took subs from people for something like eleven months and used it all to go free to play with only a tiny token patch. I think that one somehow got more support then this did. Shocked

I tried asking in game and people just called me ignorant and clueless.

No ****.

That's why I'm asking.

If you can't actually articulate what you're mad about, who can listen?


For the sake of argument imagine you go into a burger restaurant and order a meal. But when it arrives the guy at the counter tells you they charge a dollar fifty extra to have salt on your freedom fries. Would you feel like this is a good thing?

VKhaun Vex
Posted - 2011.06.24 19:39:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: VKhaun Vex on 24/06/2011 19:40:55
Thanks guys... This is a lot better then I've been getting until now and I'll give that link a good read.





Originally by: moneykeeper
For the sake of argument imagine you go into a burger restaurant and order a meal. But when it arrives the guy at the counter tells you they charge a dollar fifty extra to have salt on your freedom fries. Would you feel like this is a good thing?



This is the kind of loaded bull**** I've been getting a lot of.
Vague troll-bait answers that do no one any good.

Not-Apsalar
Posted - 2011.06.24 19:40:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: VKhaun Vex
I'm new to EVE and I'm watching the whole Incarna thing... is the community really trying to crash Jita right now because of a cash shop and losing hangar view? I've seen some much, much, worse patches in my time playing games that got much weaker response.

Dungeons and Dragons Online actually took subs from people for something like eleven months and used it all to go free to play with only a tiny token patch. I think that one somehow got more support then this did. Shocked

I tried asking in game and people just called me ignorant and clueless.

No ****.

That's why I'm asking.

If you can't actually articulate what you're mad about, who can listen?


There has been no gameplay alterations or critical features removed. The non-combat part of the game was changed. People got ****ed off and started raging, so the forum moderators had to ban some idiots that didn't follow the rules.

The newsletter is interesting, but the things depicted there haven't happened yet, and may not happen at all. No reason to flip out, instead a good reason to have intelligent discourse and rational decisions(like saying "I no longer want to contribute to your company, so I will cancel unless this is addressed").

Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2011.06.24 19:41:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: VKhaun Vex
Thanks guys... This is a lot better then I've been getting until now and I'll give that link a good read.


BTW WELCOME TO EVE! Don't drink the Quafe!

moneykeeper
Posted - 2011.06.24 19:41:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Apollo Gabriel
Originally by: VKhaun Vex
Thanks guys... This is a lot better then I've been getting until now and I'll give that link a good read.


BTW WELCOME TO EVE! Don't drink the Quafe!


Lol, it's an obvious CCP alt.

Tarkadahl
Minmatar
Albatross Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.24 19:45:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: moneykeeper
Originally by: Apollo Gabriel
Originally by: VKhaun Vex
Thanks guys... This is a lot better then I've been getting until now and I'll give that link a good read.


BTW WELCOME TO EVE! Don't drink the Quafe!


Lol, it's an obvious CCP alt.


And what exactly would CCP have to gain by creating such a post?

Lol.

moneykeeper
Posted - 2011.06.24 19:47:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Tarkadahl
Originally by: moneykeeper
Originally by: Apollo Gabriel
Originally by: VKhaun Vex
Thanks guys... This is a lot better then I've been getting until now and I'll give that link a good read.


BTW WELCOME TO EVE! Don't drink the Quafe!


Lol, it's an obvious CCP alt.


And what exactly would CCP have to gain by creating such a post?

Lol.


You are naive, my friend.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_marketing

VKhaun Vex
Posted - 2011.06.24 19:48:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Not-Apsalar
The newsletter is interesting, but the things depicted there haven't happened yet, and may not happen at all. No reason to flip out, instead a good reason to have intelligent discourse and rational decisions(like saying "I no longer want to contribute to your company, so I will cancel unless this is addressed").


I agree with this to an extent, but there's a lot of backup for it in the examples given of devs testing and discussing things which would break their word if released. It's easy to get starry eyed with a new capability for income and go overboard. I wouldn't want a solid eight year old game ruined by this either and I understand a lot of the outrage now.

Not sure on the bans without knowing what 'being idiots' means. That's more vague answers that don't do any good. I've seen plenty of trolling, flaming, and derailing on these boards already. You guys have a lot of elitists with crappy attitudes. Plenty going on already to tell me that normal forum issues aren't enough to get banned.

Haran Tyrus
Posted - 2011.06.24 19:49:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Haran Tyrus on 24/06/2011 19:50:39
The issue is primarily a snowball effect on the forums. A patch came out that was less than expected, and people started whining. Then someone made something up, someone believed it and then they in turn made up something even more inflammatory that someone else believed, and so on. Then CCP fanned the flames by being silent on the issue.

And now mob mentality takes over and everyone is ready to burn their city to the ground so to speak, as they riot. In a week, everyone will be like "where did EVE go?" and wondering what happened, when in fact it was they who destroyed it.

Personally, I like CQ because of the potential it represents for the future expansion of EVE.

Oh, and the obligatory F**K YOU for anyone who says "CCP alt detected." Blah blah blah, so predictable.

Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
Posted - 2011.06.24 19:50:00 - [16]
 

We as a community have "that time" just about once a year, the forums go ablaze and CCP overheats the damage control module.

T20

Moongate

:18months:

Monoclegate

Gardaz
Posted - 2011.06.24 19:50:00 - [17]
 

Rough chain of events for newer players/refresher for older players:

- CCP surveys non-EVE playing gamers to find out why they don't play EVE. It's pretty obvious there must have been some seriously flawed methadology but whatever the details they somehow determine "Lack of full-body avatars is putting people off EVE!"
- CCP proudly announces Ambulation in 2006
- Community reaction: "Okay that sounds pretty pointless but whatever"
- 6 months later, Community: "So where's this Ambulation thing?"
- CCP: "It's called Walking-In-Stations now and it's going to be badass. There'll be mini-professions and minigames, you could be a pimp, or a casino owner, and there'll be clothes - after you've stepped out of your gloop-filled pod and taken a shower of course ;) - it's all about player interaction"
- Community: "Showers? Huh that means nudity.. and I guess I like the idea of being able to play poker in station. But don't waste too much time on it please, and don't nerf existing functionality like forcing us to walk to the market or removing ship spinning or anything dumb like that"
- CCP: "Wooh Walking-In-Stations"
- 2008, Community: "So it must be in this next expansion right? This has taken ages"
- CCP: "We're proud to announce we just started coding!!"
- Community "Just? You know this is still really pointless. Maybe you should bin it and fix EVE instead"
- 2009, CCP "Incaaaaarna. Look at these flowing clothes and mirrors and that awesome lighting"
- Community "Oh, this is taking the **** now"
- 2010, CCP: "So get this guys, a while back you had a great expansion, then we moved all those coders to work on Incarna. But don't sweat! We still have 12 guys working on EVE proper and soon you we're also making simcity-in-space and we just fixed lag and in 18 months we can maybe fix something else Woooh"
- Community: "WTFFFFF??!! You did NOT fix lag"
- CCP: "Oh yeah we didn't"
- 2011, CCP: "Ok Incarna is here..."

Raz Xym
Posted - 2011.06.24 19:52:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Haran Tyrus
Edited by: Haran Tyrus on 24/06/2011 19:50:39
The issue is primarily a snowball effect on the forums. A patch came out that was less than expected, and people started whining. Then someone made something up, someone believed it and then they in turn made up something even more inflammatory that someone else believed, and so on. Then CCP fanned the flames by being silent on the issue.

And now mob mentality takes over and everyone is ready to burn their city to the ground so to speak, as they riot. In a week, everyone will be like "where did EVE go?" and wondering what happened, when in fact it was they who destroyed it.

Personally, I like CQ because of the potential it represents for the future expansion of EVE.

Oh, and the obligatory F**K YOU for anyone who says "CCP alt detected." Blah blah blah, so predictable.

It has to be said: CCP alt detected

Tarkadahl
Minmatar
Albatross Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.24 19:53:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: moneykeeper


You are naive, my friend.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_marketing



And you are paranoid if you think that anyone who disagrees with your cause is an employee of CCP.

Take off your tinfoil hat, it's cooking your brain. ROFL.

Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
Posted - 2011.06.24 19:54:00 - [20]
 

Actually, the community is doing exactly what the game designers have given them the ability to do and trained them for ...

Expressing their power.

Whether it's right or wrong, whether it makes sense, or whether it's just a little bit silly, doesn't come into play. It's power, and we're using it.

Haran Tyrus
Posted - 2011.06.24 19:55:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Raz Xym

It has to be said: CCP alt detected


I knew it would be coming, and thought it would annoy me, but instead it made me laugh. Maybe it was your wording.

You sir, win the day.

PyroPaul
Posted - 2011.06.24 19:56:00 - [22]
 

The key argument behind the 'protests' is the idea of being able to buy your way to success rather then working towards it. throw down a credit card number and you can have the Cash, Ships, Fits, Skills, and Standing to jump into a Titan on your first day...

this will hurt the in game market as well, because assets will cap out at a specific value rather then being variable based on supply, demand, and convinence.

Not-Apsalar
Posted - 2011.06.24 19:59:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: PyroPaul
The key argument behind the 'protests' is the idea of being able to buy your way to success rather then working towards it. throw down a credit card number and you can have the Cash, Ships, Fits, Skills, and Standing to jump into a Titan on your first day...

this will hurt the in game market as well, because assets will cap out at a specific value rather then being variable based on supply, demand, and convinence.


You've been able to do this for a very long time. It's called PLEX and the Character Bazaar.

Natsett Amuinn
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.06.24 20:00:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: moneykeeper

For the sake of argument imagine you go into a burger restaurant and order a meal. But when it arrives the guy at the counter tells you they charge a dollar fifty extra to have salt on your freedom fries. Would you feel like this is a good thing?


Or for the sake of being absurd and trying to make mountains out of mole hills, which is what the magority of people are doing, well use a completely ******ed anaology that doesn't have any bearing, or even reomotely reflect the true state of things.


There's a severe shortage of common sense and logic on these forums. The only thing this "community" is acheiving is proving people wrong, EVE is not the game that mature, intelligent, people play. It's a game that self centered, pampered brats play.


Tarkadahl
Minmatar
Albatross Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.24 20:01:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Tarkadahl on 24/06/2011 20:02:59
Originally by: PyroPaul
The key argument behind the 'protests' is the idea of being able to buy your way to success rather then working towards it. throw down a credit card number and you can have the Cash, Ships, Fits, Skills, and Standing to jump into a Titan on your first day...

this will hurt the in game market as well, because assets will cap out at a specific value rather then being variable based on supply, demand, and convinence.


So in essence, a lot of this melodrama is based on fear of the unknown. Rather than anger at what HAS happened in reality.

If you took the whole MT issue out of the equation, then people would probably just look upon the rest of the issues as niggles that may be dealt with over time.

In short, this whole "riot" is being caused by people jumping to wild conclusions and making assumptions based on material being used for discussion.

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2011.06.24 20:05:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: VKhaun Vex
Edited by: VKhaun Vex on 24/06/2011 19:40:55
Thanks guys... This is a lot better then I've been getting until now and I'll give that link a good read.





Originally by: moneykeeper
For the sake of argument imagine you go into a burger restaurant and order a meal. But when it arrives the guy at the counter tells you they charge a dollar fifty extra to have salt on your freedom fries. Would you feel like this is a good thing?

My sub runs out in 9 days, otherwise I would say see you in a year or two and see if you're still so jolly.

This is the kind of loaded bull**** I've been getting a lot of.
Vague troll-bait answers that do no one any good.

Haran Tyrus
Posted - 2011.06.24 20:05:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Haran Tyrus on 24/06/2011 20:05:52
Originally by: Tarkadahl
Edited by: Tarkadahl on 24/06/2011 20:02:59
Originally by: PyroPaul
The key argument behind the 'protests' is the idea of being able to buy your way to success rather then working towards it. throw down a credit card number and you can have the Cash, Ships, Fits, Skills, and Standing to jump into a Titan on your first day...

this will hurt the in game market as well, because assets will cap out at a specific value rather then being variable based on supply, demand, and convinence.


So in essence, a lot of this melodrama is based on fear of the unknown. Rather than anger at what HAS happened in reality.

If you took the whole MT issue out of the equation, then people would probably just look upon the rest of the issues as niggles that may be dealt with over time.

In short, this whole "riot" is being caused by people jumping to wild conclusions and making assumptions based on material being used for discussion.



Exactly right and very well said. I don't care one bit about vanity items for AUR, and I too will be angry if CCP were to sell non-vanity items, but nowhere that I have seen did CCP ever say they would sell non-vanity items for AUR, so people are just reacting to their fear of the worst, which is not based on reality.

.

Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
Posted - 2011.06.24 20:05:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Tarkadahl
Edited by: Tarkadahl on 24/06/2011 20:02:59
Originally by: PyroPaul
The key argument behind the 'protests' is the idea of being able to buy your way to success rather then working towards it. throw down a credit card number and you can have the Cash, Ships, Fits, Skills, and Standing to jump into a Titan on your first day...

this will hurt the in game market as well, because assets will cap out at a specific value rather then being variable based on supply, demand, and convinence.


So in essence, a lot of this melodrama is based on fear of the unknown. Rather than anger at what HAS happened in reality.

If you took the whole MT issue out of the equation, then people would probably just look upon the rest of the issues as niggles that may be dealt with over time.

In short, this whole "riot" is being caused by people jumping to wild conclusions and making assumptions based on material being used for discussion.


Most are just caught up in the drama. Yell, scream, throw stones ... who REALLY cares what it's about? The few ringleaders, and they're more interested in the rush of having followers.

As an individual, humans are incredibly intelligent. As a mob, we're the dumbest species on the planet.

moneykeeper
Posted - 2011.06.24 20:05:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Tarkadahl
Originally by: PyroPaul
The key argument behind the 'protests' is the idea of being able to buy your way to success rather then working towards it. throw down a credit card number and you can have the Cash, Ships, Fits, Skills, and Standing to jump into a Titan on your first day...

this will hurt the in game market as well, because assets will cap out at a specific value rather then being variable based on supply, demand, and convinence.


So in essence, a lot of this melodrama is based on fear of the unknown. Rather than anger at what HAS happened in reality.

In short, people jumping to wild conclusions and making assumptions based on material being used for discussion.

If you took the whole MT issue out of the equation, then people would just look upon the rest of the issues as niggles that may be dealt with over time.


Yeah, it has nothing to do with changing the terms and conditions half way through a contract or with being nickle and dimed. We are all just afraid of change.


VKhaun Vex
Posted - 2011.06.24 20:06:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: VKhaun Vex on 24/06/2011 20:08:18
Originally by: PyroPaul
The key argument behind the 'protests' is the idea of being able to buy your way to success rather then working towards it. throw down a credit card number and you can have the Cash, Ships, Fits, Skills, and Standing to jump into a Titan on your first day...

this will hurt the in game market as well, because assets will cap out at a specific value rather then being variable based on supply, demand, and convinence.


Nonsense. My friend joined on a buddy key, I bought a double plex for $34 instead of getting a $50 game and dividing my time. I sold them all for ISK. I'm doing level one missions in a rigged Phantasm with hundreds of millions left and you're telling me cash shop will be bad because NOW you can buy ships and fits? LOL

You already can and it's a good thing, because people can buy PLEX with in-game currency to keep playing for free. This arrangement is old and positive in my opinion.



EVE has a ceiling on abilities in game. A ship's fitting requirements. You can spend a ton of isk to milk out another few % or barely fit something with faction mods, but once you go to group warfare and tactics even that's obviously out the window. T2's require training time, and that's not going away.

You'd have to assume they're going to put in stronger items in exchange for cash, NOTHING LESS, to say this will reach out to combat. You'd have to assume they're going to put in something to give skill points to ever affect player time... and that is unfortunately more reasonable given the examples posted and described.




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