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blankseplocked [EL-G/FDU] War in Intaki, and negligence by local interests
 
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Kithrus
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.03 17:10:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
Originally by: Dex Nederland
Why is that the Gallente nationalist keep trying to portray the auction of development rights


Spurious, easily-disprovable lies about the true nature of the auction and the actions taken by the winning corporations notwithstanding, the State did not and does not have the right to auction anything in Placid. It's not your space. Get out.


Then let the State be indipendant and stop trying to force your liberalistic ideals on a nation that does not want nor desire them!

The space belong to those who hold and defend it unless you want to get into 'its our land first' in which case your need to look in the mirrior.

Andreus Ixiris
Gallente
Mixed Metaphor
Posted - 2011.07.03 17:34:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Kithrus
Then let the State be indipendant and stop trying to force your liberalistic ideals on a nation that does not want nor desire them!

The space belong to those who hold and defend it unless you want to get into 'its our land first' in which case your need to look in the mirrior.


You're a special kind of idiot, even for an Amarrian.

They invaded us. They threatened to perform the same sort of geoncide they accuse the Federation of attempting to perpetrate if we didn't hand over the homeworld that barely even remembers them. Unsatisfied, they then broke the peace treaty they signed within less than a week in an attempt to sieze more land which they have even less legitimate claim to. Force our ideals on them?

I feel it would be insulting to most people's intelligence if I were to comment on the supreme irony of an Amarrian accusing someone of forcing ideals on others. But then again, if I didn't point it out, you and your kind would be liable to miss it because, to put it bluntly, you aren't very bright.

Jason Galente
Gallente
mishima ryu
Posted - 2011.07.03 18:43:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
Originally by: Kithrus
Then let the State be indipendant and stop trying to force your liberalistic ideals on a nation that does not want nor desire them!

The space belong to those who hold and defend it unless you want to get into 'its our land first' in which case your need to look in the mirrior.


You're a special kind of idiot, even for an Amarrian.

They invaded us. They threatened to perform the same sort of geoncide they accuse the Federation of attempting to perpetrate if we didn't hand over the homeworld that barely even remembers them. Unsatisfied, they then broke the peace treaty they signed within less than a week in an attempt to sieze more land which they have even less legitimate claim to. Force our ideals on them?

I feel it would be insulting to most people's intelligence if I were to comment on the supreme irony of an Amarrian accusing someone of forcing ideals on others. But then again, if I didn't point it out, you and your kind would be liable to miss it because, to put it bluntly, you aren't very bright.


I may be Gallentean, Mr Ixiris, but I'm not blind to the more intricate details like you are. I seem to remember reports of Gallentean harassment of Caldari forces in The Forge region, including but not limited to disrupting and intercepting communications, and even setting up a military taskforce with a hidden stargate in deadspace, long before the conflict in Intaki started. Are you denying any responsibility the Gallente Federation is due for spurring this conflict?


Dex Nederland
Caldari
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Posted - 2011.07.03 18:43:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
They invaded us. They threatened to perform the same sort of geoncide they accuse the Federation of attempting to perpetrate if we didn't hand over the homeworld that barely even remembers them. Unsatisfied, they then broke the peace treaty they signed within less than a week in an attempt to seize more land which they have even less legitimate claim to.


Many consider the Leviathan in orbit above Caldari Prime as a threat to Gallente Prime. I think it is there to ensure that if we, the Caldari, cannot have our homeworld, no one will.

CONCORD established the militia act with the consent of its members. This war, the one in which the State's and Federation's capsuleers are taking part, was agreed to by the Federation government in CONCORD committee alongside the State, Republic, and Empire. The Federation is as much to blame for breaking the treaty as the State.

Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
the State did not and does not have the right to auction anything in Placid.

The State and its member corporations have every right to establish methods by which to regulate potential conflicts of interest with each other. Development rights/licenses/etc are a contractual means to ensure the various corporations do not unintentional interfere in each others operations in a particular constellation, system, etc. The winning bids are a three-party agreement between the "owning" megacorporation, the State, and all other megacorporations.

Lastly, the State has the right to auction off plenty of things in Placid. For example, the Caldari Business Tribunal operates six stations in Alselbosier. The Caldari Business Tribunal is wholly owned by the CEP, the State's governing body. Under Federation law, the State has the right to do what it wants with this property including auction it.

Andreus Ixiris
Gallente
Mixed Metaphor
Posted - 2011.07.03 19:05:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Dex Nederland
Many consider the Leviathan in orbit above Caldari Prime as a threat to Gallente Prime. I think it is there to ensure that if we, the Caldari, cannot have our homeworld, no one will.


Well that's a rational and well-reasoned argument. I'm glad that a planet-ravaging superweapon is in the hands of such a clearly cool-headed and logical group of people.

(In case you are incapable of discerning, that was saracsm).

Originally by: Dex Nederland
The State and its member corporations have every right to establish methods by which to regulate potential conflicts of interest with each other. Development rights/licenses/etc are a contractual means to ensure the various corporations do not unintentional interfere in each others operations in a particular constellation, system, etc. The winning bids are a three-party agreement between the "owning" megacorporation, the State, and all other megacorporations.


Which you have no right to issue regarding territory that is not your property.

Shut the **** up.

Dex Nederland
Caldari
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Posted - 2011.07.03 20:17:00 - [66]
 

Edited by: Dex Nederland on 03/07/2011 20:17:40
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
... you have no right to [establish contractual agreements] regarding [deconflicting operations in] territory that is not your property.


Everyone has the right to establish contractual agreements with others regardless of whether they "own" the areas in which it applies. The extent (territorial, temporal, or otherwise) to which the contract applies is for those party to the contract to decide.

Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
Shut the **** up.

No.

*Edit for Syntax Error

Sakaane Eionell
Intaki Liberation Front
Posted - 2011.07.06 01:45:00 - [67]
 

Edited by: Sakaane Eionell on 06/07/2011 01:48:11
Originally by: Dex Nederland
Everyone has the right to establish contractual agreements with others regardless of whether they "own" the areas in which it applies. The extent (territorial, temporal, or otherwise) to which the contract applies is for those party to the contract to decide.

You seem to wish to cast the Caldari in a better light over their actions in auctioning development rights in occupied territories. Fair enough. The State could do well to be cast in a better light, because they have shown very little respect to everyone affected by the auction.

If the State wanted to create or expand business opportunities in Placid, certainly they could have negotiated in good faith with the Federation and the Intaki Assembly. After all, the Feds and the Assembly would have been party to any contract too. But that's not what the State did, and spouting rhetoric about what could have been serves only to muddy the reality of the issue.

The fact is the war happened and the auction was a direct result of it. You can't ignore this or the occupation simply for the convenience of your argument. These events are directly linked. The State decided to force its way in and occupy the system, laying claim to something they had no business touching in the first place. Only then did they start divvying up what they arrogantly felt was "theirs".

So, Ishukone bid and won "rights" to "develop" the Intaki system. But no one in Intaki was asked whether they wanted Ishukone's presence and nor was the existing business community consulted regarding diverting the system's available resources to support any State entity. The State simply arrived and said, "This is what we're doing and tough **** if you don't like it."

Under such duress, is it any wonder the State is not welcomed by the majority of Intaki and Gallente citizens alike? It does not matter if Ishukone later sat at the negotiating table with the Assembly once the Caldari were ousted from our space. The damage was already done.


Edit: Missing word

Dex Nederland
Caldari
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Posted - 2011.07.06 04:21:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Sakaane Eionell
You seem to wish to cast the Caldari in a better light over their actions in auctioning development rights in occupied territories. Fair enough. The State could do well to be cast in a better light, because they have shown very little respect to everyone affected by the auction.

I intend to provide a different viewpoint concerning the topic of State corporate development rights in Placid, Verge Vendor, and Essence.

Better? No and I will explain why in a moment.

Originally by: Sakaane Eionell
If the State wanted to create or expand business opportunities in Placid, certainly they could have negotiated in good faith with the Federation and the Intaki Assembly. After all, the Feds and the Assembly would have been party to any contract too. But that's not what the State did, and spouting rhetoric about what could have been serves only to muddy the reality of the issue.
...
So, Ishukone bid and won "rights" to "develop" the Intaki system. But no one in Intaki was asked whether they wanted Ishukone's presence and nor was the existing business community consulted regarding diverting the system's available resources to support any State entity. The State simply arrived and said, "This is what we're doing and tough **** if you don't like it."

First the Federation would never negotiate with State corporations "in good faith." The only system in the whole of the warzone that has any control of its own destiny is Intaki. The rest of warzone is up for the highest bidder or atleast the corporation that can legally contribute to the most Federal Senators.

And there is the rub, the State's corporations are extermely limited in how much they are allowed to contribute to the coffers of this or that Senator's re-election campaign. In the past, if NOH or Wiyrkomi shows interest in expanding their Placid operations, they are outbid by Federation competition like Impetus or Roden Shipyards. The Senators pay more attention on those who contribute more to their re-election.

Those few State corporations with significant presence likely have Federation "Settler" development rights, having helped colonize the systems centuries ago. That protects them from being kicked out, but new laws prevent expansion.

Are existing communities consulted when FedMart or Ducia Foundry are given development rights over a local conglomerate of independent retailers or miners? No, the Federal government, guided by Senators recieving campaign funding, greases the path for the big corporations to move in and do as they wish.

The Federation is worse than the State when it comes to handing out development rights/licenses in low security space. The Federation & State use similar systems, the State is at least honest about it.

Dex Nederland
Caldari
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Posted - 2011.07.06 04:27:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Sakaane Eionell
The fact is the war happened and the auction was a direct result of it. You can't ignore this or the occupation simply for the convenience of your argument. These events are directly linked. The State decided to force its way in and occupy the system, laying claim to something they had no business touching in the first place. Only then did they start divvying up what they arrogantly felt was "theirs".

Correct me if I am wrong, but was there not an Intaki President of the Federation at the time the systems choosen to be part of the militia act were selected? Did the Federation, through its CONCORD representatives, not agree to the militia act?

And now the place were I get back to why the light is not "better."

The development rights/license auctions and associated three-party contracts prevent anarchy.

For a moment, assume there is are a few undeveloped systems and no development rights were established and no three-party contract signed. Eight powerful corporations (with their own navies) send exploratory teams to these relatively underdeveloped systems. The exploratory teams find something valuable. There is a mad rush to begin explotation of the valuable resource. That is when the shooting starts and possibly spills over into other systems, disrupting commerce (neutral included), and making life even worse than it already is for the people who live there.

The development rights establish order between the corporations and prevent corporate warfare.

Andreus Ixiris
Gallente
Mixed Metaphor
Posted - 2011.07.06 07:28:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Dex Nederland
First the Federation would never negotiate with State corporations "in good faith."


You lie.

Originally by: Dex Nederland
The only system in the whole of the warzone that has any control of its own destiny is Intaki. The rest of warzone is up for the highest bidder or atleast the corporation that can legally contribute to the most Federal Senators.


You lie.

Originally by: Dex Nederland
And there is the rub, the State's corporations are extermely limited in how much they are allowed to contribute to the coffers of this or that Senator's re-election campaign. In the past, if NOH or Wiyrkomi shows interest in expanding their Placid operations, they are outbid by Federation competition like Impetus or Roden Shipyards. The Senators pay more attention on those who contribute more to their re-election.


You lie.

Originally by: Dex Nederland
Those few State corporations with significant presence likely have Federation "Settler" development rights, having helped colonize the systems centuries ago. That protects them from being kicked out, but new laws prevent expansion.


You have no proof of this.

Originally by: Dex Nederland
Are existing communities consulted when FedMart or Ducia Foundry are given development rights over a local conglomerate of independent retailers or miners?


And the Caldari do? You disingenuous, duplicitous coward. Your lies are a disgrace to your ancestors.

Originally by: Dex Nederland
The Federation is worse than the State when it comes to handing out development rights/licenses in low security space.


Simply put:

No. No. No.

Dex Nederland, you are an abject disgrace to the Caldari people, and you are not fit to represent it. It is no wonder that State loyalists with honour - Verin Haktain, John Revenent, Creetalor, et al - are dissociating themselves with the "traditional" bloc of State loyalist. Your honour has fled from you.

Dex Nederland
Caldari
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Posted - 2011.07.06 13:32:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
Originally by: Dex Nederland
First the Federation would never negotiate with State corporations "in good faith."


You lie.

Go read the article Mr. Ixiris. It never says the negotiations were successful. Ishukone was also attempting to get Federal regulators to remove war-time restrictions on Caldari business in the Federation. The Federation could re-impose those at any time without the consent of Ishukone.

That is not negotiations in "good faith."

Originally by: Andreus Ixiris

...

You lie.

...
You lie.

...

You have no proof of this.

You have no proof to the contrary for any of what I said other than to claim the Federation is a beacon of light and free from corruption (that is sarcasm if you missed it). You repeatedly claim I am lying when I present a different viewpoint from your own.


Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
Originally by: Dex Nederland
Are existing communities consulted when FedMart or Ducia Foundry are given development rights over a local conglomerate of independent retailers or miners?
And the Caldari do?
...
Originally by: Dex Nederland
The Federation is worse than the State when it comes to handing out development rights/licenses in low security space.


Simply put:

No. No. No.


No, the State clearly does not take the interest of the local business community or people into account. That was the intent of the statement I responded to. My point is neither does the Federation.

The links you provided highlight the challenges of occupying space, not how development rights are handed out.

You reject my viewpoint that in order to get anything done in the Federation a corporation needs to have a few Federation Senators who support them and the way to get this Federation Senators to support them is to help fund their re-election campaigns.

But all of this is not for you, as I am sure you are well aware, it is for others to read and decide upon what they will believe.

Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
You disingenuous, duplicitous coward. Your lies are a disgrace to your ancestors.
...
Dex Nederland, you are an abject disgrace to the Caldari people, and you are not fit to represent it. It is no wonder that State loyalists with honour - Verin Haktain, John Revenent, Creetalor, et al - are dissociating themselves with the "traditional" bloc of State loyalist. Your honour has fled from you.

I do not care what you, Mr. Ixiris, think of me.

Andreus Ixiris
Gallente
Mixed Metaphor
Posted - 2011.07.06 15:00:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Dex Nederland
Go read the article Mr. Ixiris. It never says the negotiations were successful. Ishukone was also attempting to get Federal regulators to remove war-time restrictions on Caldari business in the Federation. The Federation could re-impose those at any time without the consent of Ishukone.


You have provided no evidence to the contrary. Ishukone were willing, unlike the other corporations, to sit down with Federal Administration and clarify points of potential conflict. No other Caldari corporation has shown even the willingness to do this.

Originally by: Dex Nederland
You have no proof to the contrary for any of what I said other than to claim the Federation is a beacon of light and free from corruption (that is sarcasm if you missed it). You repeatedly claim I am lying when I present a different viewpoint from your own.


Because you never provide any proof for your assertions, whereas I do provide proof for mine. The State is issuing development rights for territory no corporation in the State has any right to develop. The territory does not belong to the State, it does not belong to the corporations of the State. Neither the overarching Federal government nor the citizens of the systems have given any consent for that territory to be developed by State corporations.

You are not welcome here.

Originally by: Dex Nederland
No, the State clearly does not take the interest of the local business community or people into account. That was the intent of the statement I responded to. My point is neither does the Federation.


And, as usual for the spurious nobody that you are, you've provided no proof of this assertion other than the blind insistence that the State must be better than the Federation.

Originally by: Dex Nederland
The links you provided highlight the challenges of occupying space, not how development rights are handed out.


This is the weakest lie, Nederland, you have ever told, out of a veritable smorgasbord of falsehoods, half-truths and misdirections perpetrated by you and your dishonourable corporation.

If you look at the results, and then look at the flagrant abuses a pattern emerges. I will not use the term "curious pattern", because it's obvious to anyone who has two braincells to rub together. It's always the corporations and their security divisions that bought the development rights to a system perpetrating the crimes. The development rights and the occupations are one and the same. The "rights" issued by the Providence Directorate are effectively carté blanche for a corporation to do whatever they want with the system.

Originally by: Dex Nederland
I do not care what you, Mr. Ixiris, think of me.


But I'm sure you'd care what your ancestors would think.

From what I can see of the Heth lapdog you've become, it wouldn't be pleasant.

Diana Kim
Caldari
Wolfsbrigade
Posted - 2011.07.06 19:27:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Dex Nederland

You repeatedly claim I am lying when I present a different viewpoint from your own.



I would like to warn you. You are arguing with I-RED's parrot pet. He just parroted my method I used on him when he wrote only insolent lies. Well, he is beyond teaching, I'd recommend you not to waste your time on him and just shoot him on sight. This will work.
This always works.

Andreus Ixiris
Gallente
Mixed Metaphor
Posted - 2011.07.06 20:54:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Diana Kim
You are arguing with I-RED's parrot pet.


Wrong.

Originally by: Diana Kim
He just parroted my method I used on him when he wrote only insolent lies.


Wrong again.

Originally by: Diana Kim
I'd recommend you not to waste your time on him and just shoot him on sight. This will work.
This always works.


Funny, from everything I've seen of you (and heard from my friends in the Gallente militia) you have about as much individual worth in combat as you do on this forum - that is to say, none.

You've never even dared come into the same system as me, you've never fired a shot across my bow and you've certainly never killed me. Try harder, little troll, try harder.

Sakaane Eionell
Intaki Liberation Front
Posted - 2011.07.06 23:21:00 - [75]
 

Edited by: Sakaane Eionell on 06/07/2011 23:22:16
Originally by: Dex Nederland
For a moment, assume

Why? You do know that old adage about making assumptions, yes?

Why do you insist on subsisting on assumptions and theories and could-have-beens? You can present your alternate viewpoint all you want but you aren't actually contributing anything useful because it has no basis in reality. Is the real world just so hard for you to swallow that this is the only way you can justify your belief that the State is so glorious?

Additionally, I never said the Federation was better. I'm a separatist! I don't want either entity to have its money-grubbing, capitalistic, culture obliterating hands mucking about in my homeland. I hate the State almost as much as I hate the Serpentis. That doesn't mean I love the Federation.

But if, in the end, Intaki could not stand alone as she did before the Gallente came and I had to choose between State or Federation, I would still pick the Federation over the State any day as the least of two evils.

Dex Nederland
Caldari
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Posted - 2011.07.07 04:44:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Sakaane Eionell
Why do you insist on subsisting on assumptions and theories and could-have-beens? You can present your alternate viewpoint all you want but you aren't actually contributing anything useful because it has no basis in reality. Is the real world just so hard for you to swallow that this is the only way you can justify your belief that the State is so glorious?

The reality is the State's government is one governed by contracts between its corporations. The reality is without contracts between the eight megacorporations and others, any situation degenerates to anarchy.

The scenario I provided is Placid two years ago without the auction you so despise. Easy pickings for a resurgent Federation to sweep the State away, but at the same time corporate security forces fighting each other on Placid's worlds while the Federation organizes its effort. Even while we are at war with the Federation, we fight shadow wars among ourselves.

We are a bunch of hyper-competitive, dis-unified corporations that are held together only by the existence of outside threats and eight party contracts where the violation of one party will result in their complete dismantling and absorption into the other seven.

The State is not glorious. The reality is the State is always on the edge of internal war.

Sakaane Eionell
Intaki Liberation Front
Posted - 2011.07.08 01:00:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Dex Nederland
We are a bunch of hyper-competitive, dis-unified corporations that are held together only by the existence of outside threats and eight party contracts where the violation of one party will result in their complete dismantling and absorption into the other seven.

The State is not glorious. The reality is the State is always on the edge of internal war.

On this we can agree.

Dex Nederland
Caldari
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Posted - 2011.07.08 04:09:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Sakaane Eionell
Originally by: Dex Nederland
We are a bunch of hyper-competitive, dis-unified corporations that are held together only by the existence of outside threats and eight party contracts where the violation of one party will result in their complete dismantling and absorption into the other seven.

The State is not glorious. The reality is the State is always on the edge of internal war.

On this we can agree.

Then would you agree that the auction of development rights for territory occupied by the State is something the State needs to do?

I am not asking if you agree with the State occupying territory or whether the State has any right to occupy it. I am simply asking that when the State occupies territory, do you agree it is the responsibility of the State to establish the necessary contracts between its members in order to minimize the anarchy?

Again, I am not asking for moral judgement of the occupation. I understand you would rather we just leave. I get it. But do you understand why the auction was necessary (for good or ill)?

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.08 06:44:00 - [79]
 

With an extraordinary amount of effort from Federation Militia and their allies in the Minmatar Militia, Harroule was removed from "vulnerable" status to "contested" status today. Vulnerable status, for those that do not know, means that the control bunker that decides occupancy can be attacked by opposing militia.

The Federation militia successfully repelled one attack, and then several outside forces blobbed the system with super capitals to thwart the efforts of both militias. The Amarr militia corporation (and former Caldari militia corporation) Wolfsbrigade also decided to enter the fray.

At the end of the day, however, Federation and Minmatar militia pilots lead by Luminaire General Val Erian were able to secure enough plexes to make the bunker invulnerable.

Intelligence reports say this will likely be a temporary condition as the Caldari insurgents are feisty by nature and, with their superior faction ships, are expected to be out in force tomorrow in their attempts to make the bunker vulnerable again.

We live in interesting times indeed.


Sakaane Eionell
Intaki Liberation Front
Posted - 2011.07.09 06:07:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Dex Nederland
Then would you agree that the auction of development rights for territory occupied by the State is something the State needs to do? ... do you agree it is the responsibility of the State to establish the necessary contracts between its members in order to minimize the anarchy?

No, not in this context. Not between only its own members. The process you describe (which has been the most clear explanation you have given to date, I might add) may serve the State well within its uncontested borders. But in areas they have forced themselves into, it does not prevent anarchy; it causes more. It is a selfish process in which the State concerns itself only with itself, and pays absolutely no mind to the displacing effects such a process will have on the economic and/or societal processes already in place before they so imposed themselves.

Granted, I am fully aware of what happens when one society attempts to overthrow another. There will always be some anarchy and some resistance in the changeover. But the Caldari make it worse on themselves by treating the people in the areas they occupy as a commodity to be tagged, sorted, and exploited, rather than as people.

Alain Octirant
Gallente
Federal Nationalist Party
Posted - 2011.07.09 10:41:00 - [81]
 

null
Originally by: Sakaane Eionell
Originally by: Dex Nederland
Then would you agree that the auction of development rights for territory occupied by the State is something the State needs to do? ... do you agree it is the responsibility of the State to establish the necessary contracts between its members in order to minimize the anarchy?

No, not in this context. Not between only its own members. The process you describe (which has been the most clear explanation you have given to date, I might add) may serve the State well within its uncontested borders. But in areas they have forced themselves into, it does not prevent anarchy; it causes more. It is a selfish process in which the State concerns itself only with itself, and pays absolutely no mind to the displacing effects such a process will have on the economic and/or societal processes already in place before they so imposed themselves.

Granted, I am fully aware of what happens when one society attempts to overthrow another. There will always be some anarchy and some resistance in the changeover. But the Caldari make it worse on themselves by treating the people in the areas they occupy as a commodity to be tagged, sorted, and exploited, rather than as people.


Madame, you are wasted in that Placid terrorist organisation under the tutelage of peaceniks like Saxon Hawke and Mammal Tafren.

You see the truth in the Caldari state, and fire like yours should be utilised the the service of the Federation.

My door is open if you ever see the light.


Andreus Ixiris
Gallente
Mixed Metaphor
Posted - 2011.07.09 10:48:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Alain Octirant
Madame, you are wasted in that Placid terrorist organisation under the tutelage of peaceniks like Saxon Hawke and Mammal Tafren.

You see the truth in the Caldari state, and fire like yours should be utilised the the service of the Federation.

My door is open if you ever see the light.


*the audio feed is silent, except for the sound of two hands hitting a forehead*

Diana Kim
Caldari
Wolfsbrigade
Posted - 2011.07.09 11:08:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Sakaane Eionell
But the Caldari make it worse on themselves by treating the people in the areas they occupy as a commodity to be tagged, sorted, and exploited, rather than as people.

Well, then you didn't live with Caldari, and you definitely should live someday with us, so you will know how corporations treat their employees. If you work for good corporation, you have as good conditions to live as nowhere else in known parts of space. You know, corporations do whatever so you will like to be, using your term, 'exploited'.

Sakaane Eionell
Intaki Liberation Front
Posted - 2011.07.10 03:12:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Alain Octirant
Madame, you are wasted in that Placid terrorist organisation under the tutelage of peaceniks

The ILF, a peacenik terrorist organization? Hmm. So in your mind we "terrorize" by politely pointing out the qualms of others and ask they consider them in a thoughtful manner? Intriguing!

Originally by: Alain Octirant
You see the truth in the Caldari state, and fire like yours should be utilised the the service of the Federation.

Your words flatter me, thank you. However, my fire is best utilized in the service of Intaki and my people. My allegiance is to them and their freedom from all entities which stand to oppress them, State and Federation alike.

Originally by: Diana Kim
and you definitely should live someday with us

I would rather seal myself inside a cargo container full of slaver hounds a week out from their last meal than ever live in the State.

Alain Octirant
Gallente
Federal Nationalist Party
Posted - 2011.07.10 03:29:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Sakaane Eionell
I would rather seal myself inside a cargo container full of slaver hounds a week out from their last meal than ever live in the State.


Ah, my dear lady, such wonderous use of invective. Have you considered a career in politics? The Party could use a young vibrant go-getter like yourself! Let me know if you would consider an internship!

On another note, your distaste for the Caldari state is clear. Does is concern you at all that your organisation has a track record of collaboration with the state? That's right, your Placid terrorists are a regular fifth column of the State, with a proven history of working with that Caldari Butcher, Damar Rocarion.

Does that give you pause?

Diana Kim
Caldari
Wolfsbrigade
Posted - 2011.07.10 04:27:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Sakaane Eionell
Originally by: Diana Kim
and you definitely should live someday with us

I would rather seal myself inside a cargo container full of slaver hounds a week out from their last meal than ever live in the State.


Well, since you prefer to judge us without knowing us, I can only one thing left to say.

Your suggestion is acceptable.
Please, do it.

Jesmine Kyriel
Amarr
House Kyriel Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.10 07:00:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Diana Kim
Originally by: Sakaane Eionell
Originally by: Diana Kim
and you definitely should live someday with us

I would rather seal myself inside a cargo container full of slaver hounds a week out from their last meal than ever live in the State.


Well, since you prefer to judge us without knowing us, I can only one thing left to say.

Your suggestion is acceptable.
Please, do it.


Pilot Kim, in an effort to help you better serve your people, flag, kin and cause, I will offer you some advice.

Firstly, going off on an aggressive tone and a demeaning attitude towards anyone who happen to disagree with you, will not earn you any respect nor honor, neither will it reflect well on those you serve. Even those who disagree with you or believe or feel different in matters of apparent importance, deserve enough respect to avoid being instantly verbally lectured for voicing opposing opinions, let alone arriving on different ideas for what works better for them and theirs.

Secondly, do yourself a favor - enlighten yourself on the matter you desire to speak of and argue around - over the course of the last week your presence here proves that you have either not understood the lessons of what and whom you converse, or neglected to learn them in the first place. You appear even more ignorant than me the nature of the Intaki system, it's inhabitants, representatives and what they want and need - this does not assist you, nor your thus inherently flawed arguments.

Thirdly, basic tolerance demands you consider the viewpoint of your opponents, and try to put yourself in their place, to see their position and the basis for their ways. You treat the Gallentians, and indeed, the greater Federation worse and with more venomous hatred than many Matari have treated me and mine. There is no understanding something you blindly hate, either earned or not, and there is no defeating what you don't understand.

If you wish to serve your State as best you can, in this war it is not just advisable to understand how the Federation and their member-nations think, work and live - it is indeed mandatory.

Lastly, for now - kindly stop being such an annoying hypocrite. You claim - baselessly - that pilot Eionell judge your State without knowing you. It is painfully apparent that you judge every man, woman and child in the Federation on a daily basis, with no more understanding for them than a patch of sand may hold of the sun shining down on it.

Diana Kim
Caldari
Wolfsbrigade
Posted - 2011.07.10 09:03:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Jesmine Kyriel

Pilot Kim, in an effort to help you better serve your people, flag, kin and cause, I will offer you some advice.


I really appreciate your effort to help me, but, as someone like Andreus Ixiris would say, I am beyond any help. And I'll tell you why

Originally by: Jesmine Kyriel
Firstly, going off on an aggressive tone and a demeaning attitude towards anyone who happen to disagree with you

Well, it is not generally true. And even I can argue with respect to my opponent. However, if I see a slight agression towards me, I answer with greater agression. I know it's not good and won't help resolve conflict. But it's again in my nature to solve conflicts with gunfire. And please, do not blame my mentors, it is not their fault.

Originally by: Jesmine Kyriel
You appear even more ignorant than me the nature of the Intaki system, it's inhabitants, representatives and what they want and need - this does not assist you, nor your thus inherently flawed arguments.


my bad

Originally by: Jesmine Kyriel
Thirdly, basic tolerance demands you consider the viewpoint of your opponents, and try to put yourself in their place, to see their position and the basis for their ways.


The next problem is that I have zero tolerance on several subjects. However, I try to put myself in their place, but...

Originally by: Jesmine Kyriel
If you wish to serve your State as best you can, in this war it is not just advisable to understand how the Federation and their member-nations think, work and live - it is indeed mandatory.

As I said somewhere else, the more I understand how Gallenteans think, the more I hate them.

Originally by: Jesmine Kyriel
Lastly, for now - kindly stop being such an annoying hypocrite. You claim - baselessly - that pilot Eionell judge your State without knowing you. It is painfully apparent that you judge every man, woman and child in the Federation on a daily basis, with no more understanding for them than a patch of sand may hold of the sun shining down on it.

Well, you right. But unlike Eionell, the Federation is the enemy. I judge them and I know should they catch me, I will be framed and tortured and whatever, like putting me in the same cargo container with slaver hounds.

I am ready to judge them, torture them and kill them, knowing they will do to me the same. It's my destiny and it's my fate, and I will bear it to the bitter end.

Sakaane Eionell
Intaki Liberation Front
Posted - 2011.07.13 03:11:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Alain Octirant
Ah, my dear lady, such wonderous use of invective. Have you considered a career in politics? The Party could use a young vibrant go-getter like yourself! Let me know if you would consider an internship!

Thank you, but no. I do not consider myself a "Fed"; I have no interest in your politics; my heart will always be with my people and no others.

Originally by: Alain Octirant
Does is concern you at all that your organisation has a track record of collaboration with the state? That's right, your Placid terrorists are a regular fifth column of the State, with a proven history of working with that Caldari Butcher, Damar Rocarion.

Does that give you pause?

I will thank you to not sink to the State's level in twisting anything you can get your hands on simply to suit your political agenda. You wish to attract me to your side in one breath and then spit on my comrades and smear the ILF's good name with the next? Poor form indeed, Mr Octirant. Do not wonder then when I remind you I wish the Federation to be ousted from the Intaki sov area just as much as I wish the State to be.

As for the ILF's activities, our diplomats work tirelessly to negotiate and maintain positive relationships with a great many organizations across New Eden regardless of affiliation. Your use of the word "collaboration" is offensive; the ILF has a strict, and publicly accessible, policy regarding interactions with any militia.

Perhaps you ought to consider that, in the past when certain of these organizations and their members (including the aforementioned butcher) have been seen to interact with ILF pilots, they were donating their time freely to assist our cause, not the other way around.

Yes, my distate for the State interfering in Placid, and Intaki in particular, is quite clear. However, unlike yourself I am open-minded enough to concede Korsavius's earlier point to me that a spectrum of Caldari opinion exists. Ishukone itself is the least of all Caldari evils and their behavior in Intaki, all issues of the auction aside, highlights the potential the State could achieve if it was ever so inclined to utilize brains instead of braun.

Originally by: Diana Kim
Well, since you prefer to judge us without knowing us, I can only one thing left to say.

Your suggestion is acceptable.
Please, do it.

Originally by: Diana Kim
Well, you right. But unlike Eionell, the Federation is the enemy. I judge them and I know should they catch me, I will be framed and tortured and whatever, like putting me in the same cargo container with slaver hounds.

I am ready to judge them, torture them and kill them, knowing they will do to me the same. It's my destiny and it's my fate, and I will bear it to the bitter end.

Diana, you continue to teach everyone else all the wrong lessons about your people. Do you never hear yourself speak?

Even you, of all people, have a choice about your destiny.

Alain Octirant
Gallente
Federal Nationalist Party
Posted - 2011.07.14 03:18:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Sakaane Eionell
I will thank you to not sink to the State's level in twisting anything you can get your hands on simply to suit your political agenda. You wish to attract me to your side in one breath and then spit on my comrades and smear the ILF's good name with the next? Poor form indeed, Mr Octirant. Do not wonder then when I remind you I wish the Federation to be ousted from the Intaki sov area just as much as I wish the State to be.

As for the ILF's activities, our diplomats work tirelessly to negotiate and maintain positive relationships with a great many organizations across New Eden regardless of affiliation. Your use of the word "collaboration" is offensive; the ILF has a strict, and publicly accessible, policy regarding interactions with any militia.

Perhaps you ought to consider that, in the past when certain of these organizations and their members (including the aforementioned butcher) have been seen to interact with ILF pilots, they were donating their time freely to assist our cause, not the other way around.

Yes, my distate for the State interfering in Placid, and Intaki in particular, is quite clear. However, unlike yourself I am open-minded enough to concede Korsavius's earlier point to me that a spectrum of Caldari opinion exists. Ishukone itself is the least of all Caldari evils and their behavior in Intaki, all issues of the auction aside, highlights the potential the State could achieve if it was ever so inclined to utilize brains instead of braun.


Ah, my dear lady, you wound me.

The events to which I refer prefigure your time in the ILF, but I assure you, before the PR department got its heads screwed on straight, your dear friends helped the Caldari roll into Intaki by shooting Federal plexers en masse in fleets with Damar Rocarion.

That aside, you are mistake to place so much faith in Ishukone. As I've said before, and I'll say again:

Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes


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