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Kailithi
Posted - 2011.06.30 09:06:00 - [13111]
 

Originally by: Zhula Guixgrixks

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.




Bump 'cos LoL LaughingLaughingLaughing

Kailithi
Posted - 2011.06.30 09:17:00 - [13112]
 

Originally by: Moria Kethar
Greetings CCP

I had considered not getting involved in this discussion (or more everyone yelling and no one answering) and remaining a lurker before this account runs out of time in a week and a half - I have already canceled the reoccurring subscription due to the abhorrent behavior of your representatives and attitude of your company toward the player base.

My decision to leave was not based purely on the recent revelations - but they did spurn the final decision I had been debating. I came to Eve for the player-run economy and universe, the spaceships, the community and the sheer mind-boggling depth of the game compared to other MMO's. This was a game where what mattered most was brains and the will to put them to work - you could be a trader, miner, explorer, pirate, whatever you wanted to. IF you worked for it.

The revelations of the past week have been nauseating - the Incarna launch and all the issues therein with the annoying, slow and resource intensive CQ interface, the Fearless newsletter revelations, the dreadful blog posts from Developers, the email evidence that the CEO does not understand the game/product or community at a basic level, and forum posts. Everything continually avoid answering THE question with a simple yes or no.

Let me make it crystal clear what the question is for myself and many others: "Will CCP at any point offer the ability for players to bypass in-game mechanics (earning SP/Standings), the player-controlled economy (items) or otherwise purchase --any-- form of game-effecting benefit for IRL money?"

This has not been a difficult question to answer in the past (see CCP Shadow, this time last year) but apparently it is impossible now to obtain a straight answer. Indeed, it appears that every single person who has addressed the community has worked very hard to avoid providing a straight, simple answer. One would think that simply saying "No, nothing of this nature is going to happen." would be faster, simpler and leave far fewer doubts in your players minds. All in all, the avoidance makes anything you and your representatives have to say extremely difficult to believe.

This very thread was started with the supposed intention of "parlaying" with the player base. Very little real communication, negotiation or debate with --us-- of any kind has happened. While my best wishes are with CCP Pann - you have other employees who could have stepped up to talk to us. Indeed, the primary communication has informed us that we are (in the eyes of CCP) being unreasonable or overreacting.

The very real impression I have is that EVE is viewed as a cash cow to be milked by CCP for as long as possible until Dust or WoD is online. That there is no real direction for improving Eve itself or evolving Eve further within the context of this wonderful universe that exists. It is simultaneously the pay-to-test bed for the technology that will go into these new games and will also provide the funds for those games.

All this, combined with ongoing ---gameplay--- issues that CCP has continually failed to address for years now. The painfully serious balance issues between faction ships, weapons (can anyone say hybrids?) combined with myrid other issues that have been ongoing for ages that no amount of prettying the stations will resolve. Gameplay -NEEDS- to come first in any game if it is to be a success.

What feeling do new Gallente players have when they get told for the first time that their faction ships are worthless, and to start training toward flying a Drake or just /unsub?

Reinforcing this is staggering self-delusion within the company re: the state - from the now infamous Hilmar email and the Dev blog posts. It seems that those making the decisions have little to no interest in resolving the issues that strike the heart of the game because they see the game as being 'premium' already.

(tl:dr) - I won't be the golden goose with game play issues that you kill to pay for other games.


Kendra Wilkinson
Posted - 2011.06.30 09:22:00 - [13113]
 

Quote:
"Due to the volatility of the topic we want to refrain from any further comments on this matter until after meeting with the CSM."

[SOURCE : failBLOG #2]

What do you not understand?

Kailithi
Posted - 2011.06.30 09:31:00 - [13114]
 

Originally by: Kendra Wilkinson
Quote:
"Due to the volatility of the topic we want to refrain from any further comments on this matter until after meeting with the CSM."

[SOURCE : failBLOG #2]

What do you not understand?


A volatility caused by lack of response, inflammatory emails and failBlog #1, compounded by said failBlog #2

[source : My new book published by O'Reilly and available from Amazon this October:
"How to totally alienate yourself and drive away your customers for Dummies"

Thank you CCP, couldn't have written it without you! <3 ]

Moyra Jurescki
Posted - 2011.06.30 09:48:00 - [13115]
 

Guys,

What is so hard to understand? CCP does not want to fix lag, bugs(dating years back) or improve our game-play. CCP just adds new shiny trinkets to lure new young players who would pay real money not only for vanity items but for unique ships, t3 ammo or why not even SP. In the end what keeps their business growing is the income, not the small community @ EVE. And if they can generate more income through the NEX they will, no matter what they sell. If they come up with a solution that can overcome the real setback caused by the leak of that CCP internal newsletter, they will continue with the changes. Cos'in the end...greed is good.Right?

Now, prove me wrong CCP and I promise that I will make a third account.
Prove that you care about YOUR game. Prove that you care about the game WE play and I promise I'll buy the stupid dull skirt you try to sell on NEX as fashion item.

Best Regards,

Proud EVE player since 2007.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.30 10:00:00 - [13116]
 

Originally by: Bernice 9000
Question for unsubbers...
I understand the general fear and issue with MTs but EVE already has microtransactions for non-vanity items since Plex breaks into ISK.
I can see it kind of being an issue if tech 3 ammo was developed and only released through aurum... however since that currency is still available through in game means... and since people will still be traders of any and all commodities... these items would be readily available on the market for normal isk.(it would also prove to be a great isk sink)

So... given the unique market of eve and in-game/real-life commodity that is plex, I really do not see the crux of the problem here. Sorry.


The PLEX trade does indeed allow someone to convert RL cash into an in-game advantage. This is a bad thing.

However, adding non-vanity MTs onto the current situation would make matters worse.

Some of us warned that PLEX trading was the thin end of the wedge, and people laughed at us. I think that we've since been vindicated. The question now is just how thick are we prepared to allow the wedge to get?

At which point does CCP inserting their wedge into your rectum start to hurt?

Lupus Lycaon
Posted - 2011.06.30 10:19:00 - [13117]
 

this thread not slowing down, is it?

caldar ian
Final Destination.
Posted - 2011.06.30 10:23:00 - [13118]
 

its not slowing down

pilots are waiting for the results from csm meeting

#csm6 #tweetfleet on twitter for hash tags

Kye Do'lan
Gallente
Order of the Domain
The Polaris Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.30 11:04:00 - [13119]
 

Originally by: RomeoActual
They can't kill EVE until DUST also dies. I think if DUST flops that might start the death knell of EVE.


Not if but WHEN Dust dies, imo it wont be a big seller, so sooner rather than later

Valei Khurelem
Posted - 2011.06.30 11:11:00 - [13120]
 

Originally by: Kye Do'lan
Originally by: RomeoActual
They can't kill EVE until DUST also dies. I think if DUST flops that might start the death knell of EVE.


Not if but WHEN Dust dies, imo it wont be a big seller, so sooner rather than later


There's on way it will sell if it's just on the PS3, the only people who'd play it are playstation owners and they're already in a rage over the playstation network and how that's been handled, can you seriously imagine a game like Dust taking off well with all that going on?

Juil
Gallente
Phoenix Industries Pty. Ltd.
Posted - 2011.06.30 11:25:00 - [13121]
 

Who wants to take bets on how big of a fail our so called CSM is gonig to be?

Irn VanBru
Posted - 2011.06.30 11:35:00 - [13122]
 

Originally by: Valei Khurelem
Originally by: Kye Do'lan
Originally by: RomeoActual
They can't kill EVE until DUST also dies. I think if DUST flops that might start the death knell of EVE.


Not if but WHEN Dust dies, imo it wont be a big seller, so sooner rather than later


There's on way it will sell if it's just on the PS3, the only people who'd play it are playstation owners and they're already in a rage over the playstation network and how that's been handled, can you seriously imagine a game like Dust taking off well with all that going on?


In a nutshell, no.

I own a ps3, have done for many years, but after sony's utter fail my card details are going nowhere near them, and am sure a lot of other ps3 users are the same, that would mean the only way to get credit on id thru there cards that are bought in stores, so if they think there onto make a quick buck then a think there mistaken, unless and kinda of paying stuff is perminant on dust, then its not gona work.

Ann Can
Posted - 2011.06.30 11:58:00 - [13123]
 

Every good political struggle, regardless of the stage, needs a sordid sexual scandel mixed in to make it good old fashioned, tabloid fare, which reminds me, has anyone seen Monocle Lewinsky?

Kailithi
Posted - 2011.06.30 12:04:00 - [13124]
 

Aaaand they are off. Go on CSM, we have faith in you, we know you'll have our back, we, err, WFT ?

[source = twitter]

Quote:
@Trebor_CSM Robert Woodhead
We are getting econometric briefing about preliminary results of introduction of AUR. Double-secret NDA stuff. #tweetfleet #csm6


OK, so, the first thing you tell us if there's absolutely no way you can tell us anything because the moment your arses hit the chairs they served you with NDA's

Enjoy your beers guys. I hope you remembered the lube because at this rate before the day is over they will have bent over a table and be saying, 'Bite of this monocle boy, it won't hurt as much!"

Like we didn't all see this coming...

RougeOperator
Posted - 2011.06.30 12:15:00 - [13125]
 

Edited by: RougeOperator on 30/06/2011 12:15:45
Originally by: Kailithi
Aaaand they are off. Go on CSM, we have faith in you, we know you'll have our back, we, err, WFT ?

[source = twitter]

Quote:
@Trebor_CSM Robert Woodhead
We are getting econometric briefing about preliminary results of introduction of AUR. Double-secret NDA stuff. #tweetfleet #csm6


OK, so, the first thing you tell us if there's absolutely no way you can tell us anything because the moment your arses hit the chairs they served you with NDA's

Enjoy your beers guys. I hope you remembered the lube because at this rate before the day is over they will have bent over a table and be saying, 'Bite of this monocle boy, it won't hurt as much!"

Like we didn't all see this coming...



I cant wait to find out they have lots of research. This NDA stuff is dumb since it means they wont tell us a damn thing. Dont tell the CSM anything if you are just going to slap NDAs on them.

Then again CCP will lie to them as usual.

weat bix
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.30 12:26:00 - [13126]
 

we did say there was little point in this meeting because ccp would just use nda to stop them telling us anything they think will cause issues they may have to deal with.
Remember they only want to watch our action not hear a word we have to say.

Tugrath Akers
Posted - 2011.06.30 12:28:00 - [13127]
 

There are no secrets on the internet.

Lojik
Enlightened Industries
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.30 12:29:00 - [13128]
 

Edited by: Lojik on 30/06/2011 12:31:03
A short list, read it and see if it rings any bells.

* Promising great things for years, but delivers a deeply flawed and limited experience.
* Releases what they decide the users want.
* Refuses to listen to their fan base.
* Refuse to address critique.
* Users jumping ship in droves, going to competing products.
* Claims Innovation takes time, users just have to learn to love the changes.

Sounds like CCP, right?


The list had Apple it the beginning of every line...

If you look at Apple and their Final Cut Pro X (FCPX) launch, which also happened on the 21th, you'll quickly notice a staggering amount of similarities between the it and Incarna.

Maj Disaster
Posted - 2011.06.30 12:36:00 - [13129]
 

#CSM

TheMittani The Mittani
We're in the nitty gritty examining metrics related to the crisis, seeing which player demos have unsubbed. So far, things are ok. #csm6
7 minutes ago

At least they are looking at the unsubbed which shows it was worthwhile showing them what we will do rather than just say.

That they are interested which "demos" unsubbed does tend to imply that they have a different weighting for different types of char and how much they care about loosing them which isn't so good, doesn't send a very nice message. All paying customers should be just as important to them as each other.

Alexandra Alt
Posted - 2011.06.30 12:38:00 - [13130]
 

Edited by: Alexandra Alt on 30/06/2011 12:51:17
Originally by: Kailithi

[source = twitter]

Quote:
@Trebor_CSM Robert Woodhead
We are getting econometric briefing about preliminary results of introduction of AUR. Double-secret NDA stuff. #tweetfleet #csm6





Let me get this straight, I'm supposed to trust a bunch of guys that cannot convince myself that the options they chose or the 'agreement' they have reached is the best because of their NDA ?

That econometric briefing should be done (should HAVE BEEN DONE) publicly to whole even community in order to convince us about your objectives and plans regarding AUR, in my book, doing that to a select group of ppl under an NDA is the same thing as not doing it at all, it's not the first time previous CSM's had to demonstrate their displeasure of how things were handled through obscure and/or second guesses (quitting) because they can't talk about what they are against and CCP gags them, how can I rest assured that they won't be gagged as they always are after this meeting and believe in all they tell us after all this NDA bull****.

From what I see, CSM doesn't mean anything right now, they're just a PR move, or a group of guys who gathers all community feedback and presents them to CCP in a pretty formatted document/presentation, they have no saying in decision making about development and/or intention of features regarding EVE universe, simply because they can't talk about it, only about what CCP unveils periodically and the long road plans might not (right now, most certainly not) be what the community expects/wants.

Therefore, as far as I care, this solves nothing, CCP might make a statement that non-vanity items won't be on store (never stating a clear for how long, leaving it open for a possible future change), all dumbasses we are (or the majority) will get back to renew their subscriptions, and everything will get back to how it was, untill we see a golden scorpion introduced in the store, for $100, and 1 more high slot, or better bonuses and lo and behold, the non-vanity items stance changed over night like many other things that changed overnight in this game, sometimes to worse, sometimes to better, although the worse ones keep fading the better ones quite fast.

As long as there is an RMT store in the game, the chance of getting game changing items in the store after an innocent patch will be there, and judging by the latest CCP history of how things are dealt, the stance change of having the community above all else to having the greed above all else, that chance is extremely high.

CCP Soundwave I hope you're reading this, I do play LoL too, I do buy skins/champs when I feel like with real life money, the difference is, LoL is free, and still, as a free game, the items you can buy with real money won't give you any advantage over the other players when playing a match. You could come with the argument that you can buy boosts, be it XP or IP, and they will give you an edge momentarily, yes that does happen, but it fits in a game like LoL because you have a level cap, not infinite skillpoints with horizontal pathing, XP in LoL is earned by playing the game also, you don't need to buy boosts to still be competitive, in EvE the skills are steadily won over time, thus playing more or less won't give you a natural advantage vs other players in EvE, thus having boosts will give a clear edge over players without real money to invest. 2 different games, 2 different phylosophies, you can't just stick everything in the same bag, and use it as an example comparing it to EVE.

Oh and btw, you (CCP Soundwave) have just lost all my consideration as someone with a good grasp of what this game needs and more, what this community wants and needs, you lost all my respect and trust given the position you have right now at CCP due to your failed comparison of 2 distinctive games that in no way whatsoever can be compared, you can take your BFF team and stick to playing LoL the rest of your life please.

Best regards

Kailithi
Posted - 2011.06.30 12:41:00 - [13131]
 

Quote:
We're in the nitty gritty examining metrics related to the crisis, seeing which player demos have unsubbed. So far, things are ok. #csm6


(source = twitter)

@themittani Define 'ok' OK as in, 'Hilmar isn't bothered about the numbers, MT is accelerating' or ok as in 'he didn't thing so many would?


*taps foot waiting for an answer*

For me that says this : Hilmer and company have the demographics for the current known people leaving the game and it is "_very predictable feedback_" It says they can live with the numbers and are pushing ahead with their plans. If that's the case why are the CSM even bothering to go you Iceland ?

Oh yes, please clarity this 'which player demos have unsubbed'

Which player demographics have left... NOT how many - but WHO.

Perhaps as in "it's only the old payers, we expected them to leave, we can live with that."

Posted :

@themittani #csm6 Please clarity this 'which player demos have unsubbed' Which player demographics have left... NOT how many, but WHO. Hmm?

*taps foot waiting again*

Brainless Bimbo
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.30 12:47:00 - [13132]
 

Mittens: We're in the nitty gritty examining metrics related to the crisis, seeing which player demos have unsubbed. So far, things are ok. #csm6


Player Demographics... says a lot, they looking at the bottom line before they look at the game meaning all they care about is how much disposable cash you have to **** away on pixels whilst becoming vitamin D deficient.


Soddington Smythe
Posted - 2011.06.30 12:49:00 - [13133]
 

Words:
See above,below and to the left and right.Words don't matter,we know that and you know it.

Actions:
I haven't logged into the game since 5 minutes after I Patched to Incarna.
I've logged into the forums more in the last week than I have all year.
I've followed a tonne of links and digested more than I even wished to know about the games industry,the global gaming trends towards F2P, micro transactions and monetisation of cyber assets.

I think I'm not the only one.I don't think its an exaggeration to say EVE players are among the most knowledgeable and opinionated and most importantly stubborn players on the interwebs.

Bottom line CCP is that if you intend to feed us a line of bovine fecal matter post this CSM emergency meeting,make it the best line ever delivered in the history of political and gaming history,or prepare for the end times.
Its not a threat,its not a gloat.I'll be just as sorry to see you sink into oblivion as you will.


Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
Posted - 2011.06.30 12:54:00 - [13134]
 

Having paid for my subscription with PLEX for the last year or so (paid up until January 2012 I think), I went to "unsubscribe" anyway and there isn't actually any ability to do this in the new account management screen.

Just something folk (especially CCP) should consider when they look at the figures. Lots of people will also be leaving their PLEX paid accounts to expire (because we can't unsub).

Rapyract
Posted - 2011.06.30 12:59:00 - [13135]
 

Edited by: Rapyract on 30/06/2011 13:02:40
Originally by: Soddington Smythe
...Actions:
I haven't logged into the game since 5 minutes after I Patched to Incarna.
I've logged into the forums more in the last week than I have all year.
I've followed a tonne of links and digested more than I even wished to know about the games industry,the global gaming trends towards F2P, micro transactions and monetisation of cyber assets.

I think I'm not the only one...


You're not.

I have logged on to feed skill queue and to participate in a course arranged before the stuff hit the fan, but I've spent far more time here than in-game and even more time reading about the economics of gaming. I'm open to persuasion that things aren't as grim as they seem, but my feeling at the moment is that CCP is heading in roughly the same direction as the banks down the street from their offices.

Originally by: Vyktor Abyss
Having paid for my subscription with PLEX for the last year or so (paid up until January 2012 I think), I went to "unsubscribe" anyway and there isn't actually any ability to do this in the new account management screen.

Just something folk (especially CCP) should consider when they look at the figures. Lots of people will also be leaving their PLEX paid accounts to expire (because we can't unsub).


Nor is there anyway to indicate that you won't be renewing if you last paid your subscription using PayPal.

And as far as the "demographics" mentioned by Mittens are concerned, what can CCP possibly know about those quittting more than how long they've been subscribers and how they've paid their subs?

Vandrion
Gallente
The Collective
B O R G
Posted - 2011.06.30 13:04:00 - [13136]
 

TheMittani The Mittani
We're in the nitty gritty examining metrics related to the crisis, seeing which player demos have unsubbed. So far, things are ok. #csm6
7 minutes ago


Considering Mitten's goose stepped to the company (ccp) line about the Fearless newsletter I am very curious as to his definition of "OK"............

Maximillian Dragonard
Posted - 2011.06.30 13:05:00 - [13137]
 

The most immediate indicator they would have is monthly CC billing (like my 3 accounts). The higher that number, the more immediate the pain is felt. Paid through the end of the year, etc, doesn't mean a whole lot to the "NOW" aspect of their financials.

Smagd
Encina Technologies
Namtz' aar K'in
Posted - 2011.06.30 13:05:00 - [13138]
 

Originally by: Kailithi
Quote:
We're in the nitty gritty examining metrics related to the crisis, seeing which player demos have unsubbed. So far, things are ok. #csm6


(source = twitter)



I expect they do these statistics like they do the "Most used ships" ones and be totally surprised in a month or two, when people seem to leave EVE after an unexpected 2 hour downtime.

Luckytania
Gallente
Bullets of Justice
Posted - 2011.06.30 13:16:00 - [13139]
 

Originally by: Maj Disaster
#CSM

TheMittani The Mittani
We're in the nitty gritty examining metrics related to the crisis, seeing which player demos have unsubbed. So far, things are ok. #csm6
7 minutes ago

At least they are looking at the unsubbed which shows it was worthwhile showing them what we will do rather than just say.

That they are interested which "demos" unsubbed does tend to imply that they have a different weighting for different types of char and how much they care about loosing them which isn't so good, doesn't send a very nice message. All paying customers should be just as important to them as each other.


"All paying customers should be just as important to them as each other."

I disagree.

A customer who had been onboard for two or three years is more likely to remain a customer for another two three or more years than one with less than a year. Given they are not driven away.

J Shaft
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.30 13:25:00 - [13140]
 

The **** is about to hit the fan :)


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