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Bernice 9000
Posted - 2011.06.30 03:08:00 - [13081]
 

Question for unsubbers...
I understand the general fear and issue with MTs but EVE already has microtransactions for non-vanity items since Plex breaks into ISK.
I can see it kind of being an issue if tech 3 ammo was developed and only released through aurum... however since that currency is still available through in game means... and since people will still be traders of any and all commodities... these items would be readily available on the market for normal isk.(it would also prove to be a great isk sink)

So... given the unique market of eve and in-game/real-life commodity that is plex, I really do not see the crux of the problem here. Sorry.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.30 03:15:00 - [13082]
 

Originally by: Bernice 9000
Question for unsubbers...


Hi Bernice. Many of us have repeated this message many times, so do not be surprised if some act a bit terse. Below is what has become my standard answer.

You will also find this thread informative. Like all threads, some of it wanders, but most is pretty good.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1542767

Originally by: Adunh Slavy

Micro-transaction items require virtually no input from the sandbox to create. For example, a ship magically created removes all the potential game play that the production of that ship would have required from the sandbox.

This removal of game play, of value, is taken from the noob miner to the 0.0 miner, to the can flipper to the hot dropper and his 23 SuperCap friends out on a Sunday afternoon drive. Each micro-transaction created item takes a tiny bit from everyone, as more and more MT items are created, those tiny bits add up until the sandbox has no meaning.

Purely cosmetic vanity items, although they could have an impact on certain aspects of the sandbox, they have a far less value at a mechanical level, and thus, have far less mechanical impact on the sandbox.

Although some argue PLEX is a micro-transaction, this is demonstrably false. The ISK for which that PLEX is sold, was collected by someone in the game doing whatever it is they do. Thy put forth an effort and got a reward of ISK. They then trade that ISK for a PLEX. The guy who sold the PLEX now has the ISK, and the other guy has the PLEX. Nothing was added or removed from the sandbox, except the need for one or both of them to break the EULA. CCP profits and the players profit from PLEX.

The only ones who profit from MTs are CCP, and they do so not only at the expense of the $Cash spender, but of everyone in the game that now no longer has the opportunity to participate in the creation of the MT created items.

MTs are theft.



Cornullus Rage
Posted - 2011.06.30 03:16:00 - [13083]
 

Originally by: Bernice 9000
Question for unsubbers...
I understand the general fear and issue with MTs but EVE already has microtransactions for non-vanity items since Plex breaks into ISK.
I can see it kind of being an issue if tech 3 ammo was developed and only released through aurum... however since that currency is still available through in game means... and since people will still be traders of any and all commodities... these items would be readily available on the market for normal isk.(it would also prove to be a great isk sink)

So... given the unique market of eve and in-game/real-life commodity that is plex, I really do not see the crux of the problem here. Sorry.


The crux as you say, is that players that have a fatter RLM wallet can get these items without working the game and thus buy their advantage. Why would I buy these items on the regular market for an upgraded cost(yeah because traders in EVE love their mark up)? There is also the fact that CCP promised not to do this and it looks like they are.

Angry Rasta
Gallente
Incursion Control Scorpions
Posted - 2011.06.30 03:34:00 - [13084]
 

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
A conversation about selling SP for cash ... someone gives the thread a great response, worth reading,

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1541099&page=3#61


+1

The threadnaughtatitan goes on...

Bernice 9000
Posted - 2011.06.30 03:34:00 - [13085]
 

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Although some argue PLEX is a micro-transaction, this is demonstrably false. The ISK for which that PLEX is sold, was collected by someone in the game doing whatever it is they do. Thy put forth an effort and got a reward of ISK. They then trade that ISK for a PLEX. The guy who sold the PLEX now has the ISK, and the other guy has the PLEX. Nothing was added or removed from the sandbox, except the need for one or both of them to break the EULA. CCP profits and the players profit from PLEX.

I now understand that your issue is with a flow of:
Player buys PLEX from CCP -> Player converts PLEX into aurum.

However, of course... there is also the extension of the old Plex system of which you have no problem:
Player generates ISK in game -> Buys PLEX from Player B -> Converts PLEX to Aurum

Which... I would have to assume will be the majority of aurum generating actions. But at least I understand what you're getting at. The concern is the sandbox... or 'butterfly effect'(to use a prior eve video) regard of the game.

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.06.30 03:50:00 - [13086]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1




1: You mean any player with large amounts of liquid ISK or large real life wallets. Just like the rest of the EVE economy.


Fair enough I'll grant you that point.

Quote:


2: You are forgetting that there is a HUGE surplus in unused PLEX floating around. You are also overlooking the basic market forces that keep the price of PLEX in bounds. Demand increases > PLEX prices rise and become more profitable to resell > More players buy PLEX to resell > abundant supply and competition drives prices back down > Low prices cause few players to buy PLEX for resale > supplies drop and demand increases > and so the cycle continues.


CCP determines the rate ISK enters/exits the economy there for they can easily manipulate the market in such a way to minimize the value of plex in isk while maximizing its value as aurum.

Quote:


You should also consider that the game desperately needs more ISK sinks as it is. This, however, is not an ISK sink.


This is utter nonsense repeated by people who don't understand what currency is and how it operates. Have you noticed any massive sustained growth in isk prices of commodities? No you haven't. You know why because there is no ****ing inflation therefor there is no need for additional sinks much less a "desperate" one.

However if CCP wants to maximize their revenue from the NEX it's in their interest tighten the supply of isk not to combat inflation but to cause deflation to increase the relative value of items from the cash shop.

Quote:


Finally, of course they are trying to bolster their income. They would be a complete business failure if they didn't explore those options. This is one of the main reasons why purchasing skill points boosts, outside of the system we already have with the ability to buy a highly skilled character full blown, is very unlikely to occur. It would ultimately do more damage to their income stream than it would generate.

I personally prefer to stick with realities rather than hypothetical and unlikely what if's.




You aren't sticking with reality you're operating in fantasy land where business people don't operate in a rational manner to maximize their revenue. The only real challenge for CCP is getting the bulk of the user base over the initial ick factor and comfortable with MT in concept once that happens they'll be able to ramp up their offerings over time.

Which is why now is the last real chance we're going to have to derail this train. Though honestly I think our realistic outcome will be to slow it down.

Because once this moves beyond hypothetical it'll be too late to stop it.

Capsuleer Newton
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.30 03:54:00 - [13087]
 

Originally by: Bernice 9000
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Although some argue PLEX is a micro-transaction, this is demonstrably false. The ISK for which that PLEX is sold, was collected by someone in the game doing whatever it is they do. Thy put forth an effort and got a reward of ISK. They then trade that ISK for a PLEX. The guy who sold the PLEX now has the ISK, and the other guy has the PLEX. Nothing was added or removed from the sandbox, except the need for one or both of them to break the EULA. CCP profits and the players profit from PLEX.

I now understand that your issue is with a flow of:
Player buys PLEX from CCP -> Player converts PLEX into aurum.

However, of course... there is also the extension of the old Plex system of which you have no problem:
Player generates ISK in game -> Buys PLEX from Player B -> Converts PLEX to Aurum

Which... I would have to assume will be the majority of aurum generating actions. But at least I understand what you're getting at. The concern is the sandbox... or 'butterfly effect'(to use a prior eve video) regard of the game.


PLEX are either converted from a Game Time Card or coming directly from CCP, it is not the flow that is of issue, but how it can impact the game. the only use of the PLEX atm is extend subscription by 30 days, and that is it.

Lets speculate to give an example:

Better hardwiring implants are available thru the NeX, say a PG12 [PG8 is currently the max] < those who can readily afford this are Illegal Isk Traders, Established Corps and Alliances, and those players with access to a credit card. Will this impact gameplay? I would say yes, a higher PG means more room for fitting, maybe it could mean the difference of say an 800mm reinforced steel II and a 1600mm.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.30 03:57:00 - [13088]
 

Originally by: Bernice 9000

However, of course... there is also the extension of the old Plex system of which you have no problem:
Player generates ISK in game -> Buys PLEX from Player B -> Converts PLEX to Aurum



The concern isn't that so much as, what can be produced with that Aurum. If it something that no one else can make, or requires no equivalent input from the sandbox, then it will in the long run ruin the game.

If people can just magic ships or ammo, much less better ones, into the game, then all the industry, the trade, all the logistics go away. Plus all the chances to blow them up and the inevitable counter attacks.

There's this old peanuts cartoon, where snoopy is wandering across the desert, and he's thirsty, needs water, you know snoopy, always an over actor. Anyway along comes Sally and puts down his dog dish full of water, she says "Here's your dish, you looked thirsty". In the next frame Snoopy is there looking bored asking, "What fun was that?"

DiscomBoBulate
The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen
Posted - 2011.06.30 04:03:00 - [13089]
 

Originally by: CCP Pann
Edited by: CCP Pann on 24/06/2011 00:50:29
Hi, everyone

Some of you who have been around for a while may remember me. I was the original community manager for EVE. These days, I oversee the PR and Community teams. While most of what I do happens behind the curtains, I am still aware of whatís going on front and center. I would be lying if I said that whatís happening now didnít make me sad, but Iím not here to ask for your sympathy. To be perfectly honest, Iím here to buy time while we try to sort things out. No sense in lying about it so I'll call a spade a spade.

Itís clear that many of you are <understatement alert> angry </alert>. Thereís a lot happening, things are changing quickly and we havenít been as forthcoming as you were used to in the past. Iím willing to step out front and take a lot of heat for that since I was the one who made the decision to hold off on responding for a while to see if things cooled down once the new wore off.

I was wrong to do that and I apologize. We should have said something much sooner. We should have done more to address your concerns and be forthcoming, even if we werenít going to be able to immediately give you all of the answers you were looking for or the answer your questions in ways that will instantly turn those frowns upside down. To be even more candid, I cannot answer all of your questions, either, but I am working with the people who can to start getting those answers for you. Again, I know weíre doing this past the expiration date of your patience but I hope youíll bear with me.

I know that, with very few exceptions, most of you donít know me from Adam. I havenít earned your trust or respect; therefore I have no right to ask anything of you Ė but I am going to try, anyway. Can I please count on at least some of you to help bring the pitchforks and torches down a few notches?

Like I said, I wonít be able to answer all of your questions tonight, but I promise weíll start getting some info out tomorrow. As I see it, the chief complaint is regarding the high cost of goods in the Noble Market. Second, many people are unhappy about the Captainís Quarters. Third, there are some performance issues with Incarna. I would appreciate it if you would confirm my observations or tell me what Iím missing, but I do ask that you do it in a productive way. I will remove posts without prejudice if they are counterproductive to the conversation I hope to have with you.

If youíve read this much, thanks for staying with me. If you have something to say, Iíd like very much to hear it.

Humbly yours,
~P~

*edited to fix a "doh!" typo




I only have one question for you....Do your logs show anything now?

I hope CCP rots. You had this coming for a long time. You can only bite the hand that feeds you so many times before they figure "you know what this stupid game isn't worth this." I look forward to processing all your applications to my company in a few months when CCP goes belly up. Somehow "I told you so" doesn't do it justice.

Jimmy Duce
Chaotic Tranquility
Posted - 2011.06.30 04:04:00 - [13090]
 

Quote:

Are you moving beyond VANITY AUR items?






Greed, is so distructive...




This question is for Eve and Eve only, I don't care if I can buy gold ammo for DUST players, as long as that isn't implemented in Eve we are cool. Hell use your legal team to come up with the answer specifying that other games that influence Eve may have gold ammo but Eve itself never will.

Kewso
Posted - 2011.06.30 04:18:00 - [13091]
 

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Don't worry Super Tard will save us!!!

Zhula Guixgrixks
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
Posted - 2011.06.30 04:50:00 - [13092]
 


Khamal Jolstien
Caldari
THORN Syndicate
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2011.06.30 06:02:00 - [13093]
 

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Bernice 9000
Question for unsubbers...


Hi Bernice. Many of us have repeated this message many times, so do not be surprised if some act a bit terse. Below is what has become my standard answer.

You will also find this thread informative. Like all threads, some of it wanders, but most is pretty good.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1542767

Originally by: Adunh Slavy

Micro-transaction items require virtually no input from the sandbox to create. For example, a ship magically created removes all the potential game play that the production of that ship would have required from the sandbox.

This removal of game play, of value, is taken from the noob miner to the 0.0 miner, to the can flipper to the hot dropper and his 23 SuperCap friends out on a Sunday afternoon drive. Each micro-transaction created item takes a tiny bit from everyone, as more and more MT items are created, those tiny bits add up until the sandbox has no meaning.

Purely cosmetic vanity items, although they could have an impact on certain aspects of the sandbox, they have a far less value at a mechanical level, and thus, have far less mechanical impact on the sandbox.

Although some argue PLEX is a micro-transaction, this is demonstrably false. The ISK for which that PLEX is sold, was collected by someone in the game doing whatever it is they do. Thy put forth an effort and got a reward of ISK. They then trade that ISK for a PLEX. The guy who sold the PLEX now has the ISK, and the other guy has the PLEX. Nothing was added or removed from the sandbox, except the need for one or both of them to break the EULA. CCP profits and the players profit from PLEX.

The only ones who profit from MTs are CCP, and they do so not only at the expense of the $Cash spender, but of everyone in the game that now no longer has the opportunity to participate in the creation of the MT created items.

MTs are theft.





Best, response, ever.

Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
Posted - 2011.06.30 06:09:00 - [13094]
 


Skills aren't applying correctly to anything, but it's ok - the NEX store is here to save you.


Royaldo
Gallente
Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk Amarr branch.
Sev3rance
Posted - 2011.06.30 06:23:00 - [13095]
 




Get a grip ccp. This is a waste of time for the players, and for your employees.

Sort this out asap, or lose your income. It is that easy.


Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.30 06:29:00 - [13096]
 

Originally by: Khamal Jolstien

Best, response, ever.


Thanks, needs a going over though. I get it, but think it confuses some. It does not point out distinctly enough the difference between vanity and non-vanity.

Genie ExTS
BALKAN EXPRESS
Posted - 2011.06.30 06:42:00 - [13097]
 

and yet.. STILL no answer!.. Twisted Evil

Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.06.30 06:44:00 - [13098]
 

Edited by: Surfin''s PlunderBunny on 30/06/2011 06:45:36
Originally by: Genie ExTS
and yet.. STILL no answer!.. Twisted Evil


I believe they already gave an answer.... "Wait, we'll tell you later... after we've had time to think up something cryptic"


*Edit: This thread has suddenly started lacking ponies

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.30 06:58:00 - [13099]
 

Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny
Edited by: Surfin''s PlunderBunny on 30/06/2011 06:45:36
Originally by: Genie ExTS
and yet.. STILL no answer!.. Twisted Evil


I believe they already gave an answer.... "Wait, we'll tell you later... after we've had time to think up something cryptic"

*Edit: This thread has suddenly started lacking ponies

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.


all your not vanity not paid by us?

P.S. Pony Pic Pucked

Daenna Chrysi
Amarr
Omega Foundry Unit
Shadows Of Betrayal
Posted - 2011.06.30 07:11:00 - [13100]
 

Today the CSM has the meeting with CCP

*starts a fire under the tar*

Someone want to help with plucking the chickens? Just in case CCP screws up. Oh and those pitchforks could use some sharpening... Laughing

If they dont screw up we can have roasted chicken.Wink

Andramedae
Posted - 2011.06.30 07:15:00 - [13101]
 

Can I buy tissues with my Aurum?

Maeiko Tsutaidaro
Posted - 2011.06.30 07:15:00 - [13102]
 

Originally by: Daenna Chrysi
Today the CSM has the meeting with CCP



Live feed or it didn't happen

Constantinus Maximus
Paxian Expeditionary Force
Posted - 2011.06.30 07:26:00 - [13103]
 

Originally by: Maeiko Tsutaidaro
Originally by: Daenna Chrysi
Today the CSM has the meeting with CCP



Live feed or it didn't happen


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXRuoSHI6eQ

CSM meet the real CCP top-brass for first time.

Kiran
Minmatar
Knights of Azrael
Anti-Social Outcast
Posted - 2011.06.30 07:32:00 - [13104]
 

No answers yet then ?
My poor laptop cant even render the laser graphics of my ice miners, and still no word on the NeX store.

I guess CCP are just waiting till it all blows over and we loose our wind and then starts to sell the "gold ammo" anyway.

I just wish my subs were not set up for yearly renewal's. ugh

Mordrake
Freelance Economics Astrological resources
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2011.06.30 07:40:00 - [13105]
 

Oh hi..... just came to see if they gave an answor yet, obviously not.

World of Tanks server is down for the big patch for 8 hours... meh... figgured I would try it incase EVE ends up with non vanity Micro Transactions.

Its quite good actually, thanks CCP for stepping on your pecker otherwise I would never have tried it!!!!

Ijits


Mordrake
Freelance Economics Astrological resources
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2011.06.30 07:43:00 - [13106]
 

Originally by: Kiran
No answers yet then ?
My poor laptop cant even render the laser graphics of my ice miners, and still no word on the NeX store.

I guess CCP are just waiting till it all blows over and we loose our wind and then starts to sell the "gold ammo" anyway.

I just wish my subs were not set up for yearly renewal's. ugh


Considering they are breaking a promise they made about never having any MT in game I would guess a petition for refund should give you some joy.

A "Verbal" contract with proof is legally binding after all.

Ahernar
Posted - 2011.06.30 07:49:00 - [13107]
 

Edited by: Ahernar on 30/06/2011 08:04:52
About the PLEX issue . Lets say there is a big conflict in EVE between plex users (Alliance A) and plex sellers (the rich people , alliance B). The A guys build titans & stuff , the others just sell plex and burn expensive ships roaming . As more and more titans are sold they are becoming scarce for the producting alliance who has to supply for their needs and those of the ennemyes . The price goes up until insane ammounts when the only ones left are those needed to battle the ennemy, stopping the "cash to win" process and creating equilibrium on the battlefield .If some form of corruption appears (like in real EVE ) for ex when NC industrialists sold their supercaps to the ennemy ,at least after loosing the space they walked FILTHY RICH from it. They can use this isk to make a comeback (buy back theyr caps) becouse with the plex marked saturated (think 30 mils for the plex) the PLEX sellers have now little means to get more isk for themselves .
In a MT world , the poor alliance just get swamped by the force of cash . No comeback,no equilibrium.

Moria Kethar
Posted - 2011.06.30 08:02:00 - [13108]
 

Greetings CCP

I had considered not getting involved in this discussion (or more everyone yelling and no one answering) and remaining a lurker before this account runs out of time in a week and a half - I have already canceled the reoccurring subscription due to the abhorrent behavior of your representatives and attitude of your company toward the player base.

My decision to leave was not based purely on the recent revelations - but they did spurn the final decision I had been debating. I came to Eve for the player-run economy and universe, the spaceships, the community and the sheer mind-boggling depth of the game compared to other MMO's. This was a game where what mattered most was brains and the will to put them to work - you could be a trader, miner, explorer, pirate, whatever you wanted to. IF you worked for it.

The revelations of the past week have been nauseating - the Incarna launch and all the issues therein with the annoying, slow and resource intensive CQ interface, the Fearless newsletter revelations, the dreadful blog posts from Developers, the email evidence that the CEO does not understand the game/product or community at a basic level, and forum posts. Everything continually avoid answering THE question with a simple yes or no.

Let me make it crystal clear what the question is for myself and many others: "Will CCP at any point offer the ability for players to bypass in-game mechanics (earning SP/Standings), the player-controlled economy (items) or otherwise purchase --any-- form of game-effecting benefit for IRL money?"

This has not been a difficult question to answer in the past (see CCP Shadow, this time last year) but apparently it is impossible now to obtain a straight answer. Indeed, it appears that every single person who has addressed the community has worked very hard to avoid providing a straight, simple answer. One would think that simply saying "No, nothing of this nature is going to happen." would be faster, simpler and leave far fewer doubts in your players minds. All in all, the avoidance makes anything you and your representatives have to say extremely difficult to believe.

This very thread was started with the supposed intention of "parlaying" with the player base. Very little real communication, negotiation or debate with --us-- of any kind has happened. While my best wishes are with CCP Pann - you have other employees who could have stepped up to talk to us. Indeed, the primary communication has informed us that we are (in the eyes of CCP) being unreasonable or overreacting.

The very real impression I have is that EVE is viewed as a cash cow to be milked by CCP for as long as possible until Dust or WoD is online. That there is no real direction for improving Eve itself or evolving Eve further within the context of this wonderful universe that exists. It is simultaneously the pay-to-test bed for the technology that will go into these new games and will also provide the funds for those games.

All this, combined with ongoing ---gameplay--- issues that CCP has continually failed to address for years now. The painfully serious balance issues between faction ships, weapons (can anyone say hybrids?) combined with myrid other issues that have been ongoing for ages that no amount of prettying the stations will resolve. Gameplay -NEEDS- to come first in any game if it is to be a success.

What feeling do new Gallente players have when they get told for the first time that their faction ships are worthless, and to start training toward flying a Drake or just /unsub?

Reinforcing this is staggering self-delusion within the company re: the state - from the now infamous Hilmar email and the Dev blog posts. It seems that those making the decisions have little to no interest in resolving the issues that strike the heart of the game because they see the game as being 'premium' already.

(tl:dr) - I won't be the golden goose with game play issues that you kill to pay for other games.

RomeoActual
Posted - 2011.06.30 08:31:00 - [13109]
 

They can't kill EVE until DUST also dies. I think if DUST flops that might start the death knell of EVE.

T'Chani Kurr
Posted - 2011.06.30 08:53:00 - [13110]
 

Edited by: T''Chani Kurr on 30/06/2011 09:04:39
Dear CCP, are you so shortsighted to see that everthing that makes eve fun is the effort in achiving something by in-game actions and not by buying my way up with real cash.
This is eve and this is the sandbox philosophy, that makes the game unique.
Even with trading PLEX for ISK there is some means of effort a player must have spend in the game willing to pay for the PLEX.

By selling more items and even game affecting ones you break with the sandbox and leave behind a game that was something special making it outstanding compared to other MMOPGs.

regards...


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