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Ssakaa
Minmatar
Metropolis Moods
Posted - 2011.06.24 12:17:00 - [3211]
 

Helicity is banned?

Not good. Now would be a good time to un-ban or make temporary his ban, CCP -show a little community spirit, under the circumstances. Perhaps some sort of warning? but you go too far with a perma-ban. The person behind 'Helicity Bosun' clearly cared about EVE enough to spend God knows how many hours setting up his player-driven events, which like or not was a lot of fun for some and downright educational for those on the receiving end. I believe he also helped inspire others to start their own player-driven events, which is quite an excellent feat.

Please -don't add insult to injury. And no, I have never communicated with HB -simply someone who thinks this is a crazy thing to have happened.

Regards,

~SB~


I'm Down
Posted - 2011.06.24 12:17:00 - [3212]
 

I think everyone's response should be

"5 o'clock Friday"

Until ccp actually makes the reply. That way we can tell them we know it's just an information dump strategy and not a real reply. There's no reason they haven't articulated something by now for any other reason.

I'd be more encouraged if they said we'll wait til Monday just to avoid looking like we're avoiding this on a weekend.

Dierdra Vaal
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.06.24 12:17:00 - [3213]
 

Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 24/06/2011 12:22:35
I feel sad that this has happened - and sad that I need to write this post (not just because it'll probably get buried under 9000 other posts). However, I hope this will be read because I am trying to make a reasonable argument here - not a raging flame post.

As a recurring member of the CSM, whose duty it is to represent the players (something I took very seriously), I went to CCP to discuss the issue of microtransactions. In fact, this topic was discussed several times on CSM summits (both in October and in December). We were assured that microtransactions would be vanity items only.

I was told, to my face, that CCP would not sell anything in their virtual goods store that would not be a vanity item (vanity items being useless fluff, not giving any benefits). Now I read in your newsletter that one of your main game designers is openly argueing to break this promise. I take that as a personal insult and a clear sign of disrespect towards the Eve community as a whole. Shame on you for even considering to break your word!

I'm still subscribed, the but moment CCP will offer anything other than vanity items for PLEX/AURUM/etc is the moment I will cancel my accounts. In going for the 'hobbyist gamer' (casual gamers, even though eve isn't that casual gamer friendly), you seem to have forgotten a large part of your player base. The part that has shaped Eve over the years: the hardcore gamers. We don't come here as a hobby to experience an ultimate sci-fi simulator. We pay a subscription for an all-access pass to this crazy dystopian universe, where what you do, what you become and what you achieve comes down only to your skills, dedication and your effort. And because of that, our actions are meaningful.

By extending the virtual goods sales beyond vanity items you directly attack one of the things that seperates Eve from all the other MMOs out there: that actions are meaningful. If I can just buy faction standing, what meaning is there in doing missions for faction standings? What meaning is there in finally achieving 6.0 standing (for POSs) or 9.0 standing (for COSMOS missions)? And from what I read, that's not even the end of it!

Some people might enjoy spending more money 'on their hobby' like it was golf (an analogy that is inherently flawed, which I'll explain below), but due to the dystopian, merciless nature of Eve you've bred a community that exists for a large part out of hardcore players. People who see Eve as a serious business proving ground - not as a lighthearted diversion. These are the people who have allowed you to get to where you are today. These are the people who stuck by you over the past 8 years - even if they do call themselves "bittervets". To turn your back on those people is at best poor form, and at worst commercial suicide. Because Star Wars Galaxies has shown you can't just trade in one group of customers for another.

Why golf is not the same as eve
Specifically, buying golfclubs isn't the same as buying items in Eve. The equivalent would be if you could pay $100 to get one swing/strike/whatever it's called removed from your record. Instead of making a hole in 5, you could pay $400 and get it listed as a hole in one! Suddenly, your golf stats won't depend on how good you are, but simply on how much money you're willing to spend. Try to suggest that to golfers and see how they like it.

In Eve, just flying a spaceship isn't all there is to the gameplay. The effort to GET that spaceship is part of the game. The fact that it isn't easy to obtain certain things, achieve certain things or do certain things is exactly what makes these things meaningful. Meaningful to me AND to others, who can see what I have achieved. And now some game designer would like to take that away? Bad move CCP.

This illustrates it well:
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Maximus Trollus
Amarr
The Village Idiots
Posted - 2011.06.24 12:18:00 - [3214]
 

Originally by: Tali Ambraelle
You people are STILL complaining? Good Get, get a life you peasants.


You are still reading our complaints ? Good god, get a life you twit...

Rakshasr
Posted - 2011.06.24 12:18:00 - [3215]
 

I wont log into eve until ccp explains all of this...


Siiee
Recycled Heroes
Posted - 2011.06.24 12:18:00 - [3216]
 

Originally by: Straahl
Congratulations CCP. You have succeeded in stirring up an even bigger ****storm than t20.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=473335&page=106


It took over 3 days for the T20 thread to hit this number of replies, even if it's life was prematurely ended by a lock.

This thread has grown 6x as fast, and this is merely the announcement of an upcoming announcement.

El'Niaga
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.06.24 12:18:00 - [3217]
 

Originally by: Miilla
Originally by: El'Niaga
So its lunchtime in London and Iceland, so where is this additional response we were told yesterday?




End of the work day they will post the FRIDAY BAD NEWS, then run to the PUB.. come back Monday, and pray we have accepted it.



You're probably right. Bad move if they do that, brush fires cover thousands of miles in days....

Kai'il Bhaal
Posted - 2011.06.24 12:18:00 - [3218]
 

Edited by: Kai''il Bhaal on 24/06/2011 12:18:43
ITT: Cry babies throwing tantrums, unsubbing, and being banned for IRL threats as they should be.

Zach Hart
Posted - 2011.06.24 12:18:00 - [3219]
 

Agreed, it needs to go space -> docked -> CQ, where the docked interface is the same as it always was.

But that's not what CCP wants. They want to justify testing WoD technology on EvE players. They need to justify the money, so it can't be optional. They also need to test the scalability, so it can't be optional.

EvE is being treated as the rotting husk of a game being eaten alive by new ventures looking to get even more money. It's extremely clear at this point that they don't care about the game, or the players. It's merely a way of getting more money in other ventures.

Yoruichi kun
Posted - 2011.06.24 12:18:00 - [3220]
 

This post will probably drown in the all the useless postings with no meaning to help our case but hell I give it a shot.

First I am not against progress, progress is good.
So CQ I like it, it looks great but surely needs some major tweaking.
We all know it's the first step although not everybody is happy with it, it is needed to get a bigger fanbase imo.
Not everybody will/desires/aspires to be a pvp'er some of those people will be station dwellers when station walking get full blown.

Why peeps getting nut about CQ I dunno yes there maybe hardware troubles for some.
If you have older hardware time to upgrade, if not either check it not on your side or petition for it or there is a thread somewhere on the forums for it.
I am not saying here you claims are not legit but keep that in mind.
I myself have no big problems with performance in CQ, what my problem is the non support towards ATI/AMD maybe it time for ccp to make the step toward DX11
Maybe it will improve performance toward other peeps as well.

NEX or AURUM again it's not something bad, but in the way it presented now... well that's a big problem.
MT can be a good thing if it's done right the cloth selling because it will be part of station walking sure good thing but not at these prices.
Selling of ships with a special npc skin outside of the faction ships is a good idea like that golden scorp presented on AT9
But keep it at that and balance the prices.
Selling SP well i hope that just a rumor do not take away player progress, if that idea real.. dot it with a implant a special one that gives a boost for like 30 days at what 50% more speed.

CQ is here to stay but needs some major work.
NEX and AURUM totally out of balance
Back upped tweak work on the gameplay needs to be looked at asap.
Think about DX11 time to have some progress there also to deal with a lot client problems


Get your fanbase trust you again.

I am no ragequiter I wait and see how CCP gonna do now.

Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.24 12:18:00 - [3221]
 

What is it with summer in Iceland that makes them go full ******?

Kez Aumer
Posted - 2011.06.24 12:18:00 - [3222]
 

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Istyn
... death threats ...


Are people really doing that? That's a bit far to go. We can hate his "public face", but the person behind that is off limits IMO.



Very. Some people seem to have problems seeing the difference between 'not going to play your shit' and 'I want to punch you with a knife!!!'


CCP Soundwave blows. On the other hand I think I'd still buy Kristoffer a beer if I ever met him. Then we can share anecdotes about that time he destroyed eve fan trust Wink.

Reed Tiburon
Caldari
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
Posted - 2011.06.24 12:19:00 - [3223]
 

Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
I feel sad that this has happened - and sad that I need to write this post (not just because it'll probably get buried under 9000 other posts). However, I hope this will be read because I am trying to make a reasonable argument here - not a raging flame post.

As a recurring member of the CSM, whose duty it is to represent the players (something I took very seriously), I went to CCP to discuss the issue of microtransactions. In fact, this topic was discussed several times on CSM summits (both in October and in December). We were assured that microtransactions would be vanity items only.

I was told, to my face, that CCP would not sell anything in their virtual goods store that would not be a vanity item (vanity items being useless fluff, not giving any benefits). Now I read in your newsletter that one of your main game designers is openly argueing to break this promise. I take that as a personal insult and a clear sign of disrespect towards the Eve community as a whole. Shame on you for even considering to break your word!

I'm still subscribed, the but moment CCP will offer anything other than vanity items for PLEX/AURUM/etc is the moment I will cancel my accounts. In going for the 'hobbyist gamer' (casual gamers, even though eve isn't that casual gamer friendly), you seem to have forgotten a large part of your player base. The part that has shaped Eve over the years: the hardcore gamers. We don't come here as a hobby to experience an ultimate sci-fi simulator. We pay a subscription for an all-access pass to this crazy dystopian universe, where what you do, what you become and what you achieve comes down only to your skills and your effort. And because of that, our actions are meaningful.

By extending the virtual goods sales beyond vanity items you directly attack one of the things that seperates Eve from all the other MMOs out there: that actions are meaningful. If I can just buy faction standing, what meaning is there in doing missions for faction standings? What meaning is there in finally achieving 6.0 standing (for POSs) or 9.0 standing (for COSMOS missions)? And from what I read, that's not even the end of it!

Some people might enjoy spending more money 'on their hobby' like it was golf (an analogy that is inherently flawed, which I'll explain below), but due to the dystopian, merciless nature of Eve you've bred a community that exists for a large part out of hardcore players. People who see Eve as a serious business proving ground - not as a lighthearted diversion. These are the people who have allowed you to get to where you are today. These are the people who stuck by you over the past 8 years - even if they do call themselves "bittervets". To turn your back on those people is at best poor form, and at worst commercial suicide. Because Star Wars Galaxies has shown you can't just trade in one group of customers for another.

Why golf is not the same as eve
Specifically, buying golfclubs isn't the same as buying items in Eve. The equivalent would be if you could pay $100 to get one swing/strike/whatever it's called removed from your record. Instead of making a hole in 5, you could pay $400 and get it listed as a hole in one! Suddenly, your golf stats won't depend on how good you are, but simply on how much money you're willing to spend. Try to suggest that to golfers and see how they like it.

In Eve, just flying a spaceship isn't all there is to the gameplay. The effort to GET that spaceship is part of the game. The fact that it isn't easy to obtain certain things, achieve certain things or do certain things is exactly what makes these things meaningful. Meaningful to me AND to others, who can see what I have achieved. And now some game designer would like to take that away? Bad move CCP.


Quoted.

Milkmy Sausage
Posted - 2011.06.24 12:19:00 - [3224]
 

Why not just demand these 'virtual goods' will become ISK sinks. Have them put it up in stations. To be honest, after 5 years of development all we got was a room and some expensive wardrobe items, I'd say they're paid for anyway.

At this point the damage is done. AUR needs to go, anything less won't matter anyway. Words are just that, words. Certainly in CCP's case.


Because I accept that CCP need to make extra revenue and vanity items as ISK sink won;t do it. so to that effect AUR is a necessary evil, the way I see it is that if it;s vanity items only then there's no harm. I'm willing to give CCP something so I'll let AUR slide provided it can;t affect gameplay


No, it really insnt a necessary evil and it needs to go. MT's kill eve's soul in the face with fire.

edit: as soon as MT's go I'll resub. Not any sooner. That's the main problem with incarna for me.


But what is the genuine problem with MT's for vanity items? It harms no one and helps to fill CCP's pockets. Also if they let us pry vanity items off dead corpses and shove them in the face of said players who are stupid enough to buy them... hell I might even support the introduction of vanity items. Gives me an oportunity for a whille new level of local smack.

I ppreciate people are angry but we should be looking at things on balance. Same goes for CQ, it's pointless saying get rid of it because that will anger those people that like it (like me). However, there is a middle ground, i.e space - hanger - cq.

Halboru
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.06.24 12:20:00 - [3225]
 

It make me sad that CCP is no longer interested in EVE as a game, just as a cash cow. So after 6 years it's goodbye from me and my 2 alt accounts. Going to try some other games, Mortal online looks promising.

I'd probably consider re-subbing if there was some clear indication of proper investment in the core of EVE's gameplay, not just fobbing us off with some ****ty alpha test for the WOD engine. There was a time when dev's used to have a say in the direction of game development but that responsibility seems to have been transferred to marketing department.

Zly Dziad
Posted - 2011.06.24 12:20:00 - [3226]
 

Fail mmo company is fail :)

mobius nm
Minmatar
Empyrean Engineering
Posted - 2011.06.24 12:20:00 - [3227]
 

Originally by: Kez Aumer
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Istyn
... death threats ...


Are people really doing that? That's a bit far to go. We can hate his "public face", but the person behind that is off limits IMO.



Very. Some people seem to have problems seeing the difference between 'not going to play your shit' and 'I want to punch you with a knife!!!'


CCP Soundwave blows. On the other hand I think I'd still buy Kristoffer a beer if I ever met him. Then we can share anecdotes about that time he destroyed eve fan trust Wink.


I'd buy him a beer. Then I'd take it away, and charge him $80 to use the glass it's in.

Di Mulle
Posted - 2011.06.24 12:20:00 - [3228]
 

Originally by: Molten Black


You no longer are in touch with your customers and as a result they no longer trust you. You may as well be Sony now.


The even bigger problem, I think , it is that they can't be a Sony.

Sony - in its' own field - still is 100 times better.

Apparently children tales and proverbs there in Iceland are quite different from the ones I know. "If you chase two hares, you catch no one", that's what I heard.

Mistress Aym
Posted - 2011.06.24 12:20:00 - [3229]
 

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1536065&page=98#2927 is how to fix it, until then you have lost my trust, my loyalty, and more importantly my three subscriptions.Crying or Very sad

Isis Soryu
Caldari
Universitas Interimo Research
Posted - 2011.06.24 12:21:00 - [3230]
 

Edited by: Isis Soryu on 24/06/2011 12:21:13
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 24/06/2011 12:19:08
<snip>
As a recurring member of the CSM, whose duty it is to represent the players (something I took very seriously), I went to CCP to discuss the issue of microtransactions. In fact, this topic was discussed several times on CSM summits (both in October and in December). We were assured that microtransactions would be vanity items only.

I was told, to my face, that CCP would not sell anything in their virtual goods store that would not be a vanity item (vanity items being useless fluff, not giving any benefits). Now I read in your newsletter that one of your main game designers is openly argueing to break this promise. I take that as a personal insult and a clear sign of disrespect towards the Eve community as a whole. Shame on you for even considering to break your word!

I'm still subscribed, the but moment CCP will offer anything other than vanity items for PLEX/AURUM/etc is the moment I will cancel my accounts. In going for the 'hobbyist gamer' (casual gamers, even though eve isn't that casual gamer friendly), you seem to have forgotten a large part of your player base. The part that has shaped Eve over the years: the hardcore gamers. We don't come here as a hobby to experience an ultimate sci-fi simulator. We pay a subscription for an all-access pass to this crazy dystopian universe, where what you do, what you become and what you achieve comes down only to your skills and your effort. And because of that, our actions are meaningful.

By extending the virtual goods sales beyond vanity items you directly attack one of the things that seperates Eve from all the other MMOs out there: that actions are meaningful. If I can just buy faction standing, what meaning is there in doing missions for faction standings? What meaning is there in finally achieving 6.0 standing (for POSs) or 9.0 standing (for COSMOS missions)? And from what I read, that's not even the end of it!

Some people might enjoy spending more money 'on their hobby' like it was golf (an analogy that is inherently flawed, which I'll explain below), but due to the dystopian, merciless nature of Eve you've bred a community that exists for a large part out of hardcore players. People who see Eve as a serious business proving ground - not as a lighthearted diversion. These are the people who have allowed you to get to where you are today. These are the people who stuck by you over the past 8 years - even if they do call themselves "bittervets". To turn your back on those people is at best poor form, and at worst commercial suicide. Because Star Wars Galaxies has shown you can't just trade in one group of customers for another.

Why golf is not the same as eve
Specifically, buying golfclubs isn't the same as buying items in Eve. The equivalent would be if you could pay $100 to get one swing/strike/whatever it's called removed from your record. Instead of making a hole in 5, you could pay $400 and get it listed as a hole in one! Suddenly, your golf stats won't depend on how good you are, but simply on how much money you're willing to spend. Try to suggest that to golfers and see how they like it.

In Eve, just flying a spaceship isn't all there is to the gameplay. The effort to GET that spaceship is part of the game. The fact that it isn't easy to obtain certain things, achieve certain things or do certain things is exactly what makes these things meaningful. Meaningful to me AND to others, who can see what I have achieved. And now some game designer would like to take that away? Bad move CCP.

This illustrates it well:
[img]http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h334/adunh/MoonSpeech.png[img]

Best Post

Rommiee
Posted - 2011.06.24 12:21:00 - [3231]
 

Edited by: Rommiee on 24/06/2011 12:36:08
Originally by: CCP Pann

Hi, everyone

As I see it, the chief complaint is regarding the high cost of goods in the Nobel Market.





Wrong. The cost of items in the Nobel market is A concern, not the main concern.

Before you even get to the market you have a major concern of a lot of players....

When Incarna was originally presented, it was made clear by CCP that it would be an option once you have docked. This has now changed and it is mandatory. This is causing a lot of the problems people are having.

Why would you do this and refuse to revert to the old hanger with an option to disembark ? Because you want to force everyone to be in an environment which is one click away from, you guessed it, the Nobel market.

I have no intention of ever buying anything from that store, and I suspect that there are a lot of pilots with a similar stance. Therefore why are you forcing us into that environment, which causes serious hardware issues (especially with 2 or 3 clients running), an environment which also has reduced functionality over the old hanger (longer to open cargo, board the ship etc).

I really cannot understand what the problem is with your original idea and why it was changed (apart from the monetary angle mentioned above).

If you really want to listen to your player base and appease some of this outrage that is now present, just revert to the old hanger with a disembark option. It canít be that hard.

Oh, and if you like, knock down the prices in the Nobel market for those that want to play dress up. The rest of us want to play EVE.

Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Sanctuary Pact
Posted - 2011.06.24 12:21:00 - [3232]
 

Originally by: Isis Soryu
So you consider the troll DIAF as a threat? That's essentially what he did. I've done worse for 2 days now and I'm not banned. (yet)


No, I am merely not under the delusion that I am omniscient. If there was a threat then the ban was appropriate, if the document as presented was put up unedited then it is total douchebaggery on CCP's end.

xeitgeist
Amarr
Dirty Rotten Imposters
Posted - 2011.06.24 12:21:00 - [3233]
 

The person who posted CCP's leaked documents has been permanently banned on all accounts. Let this be an lesson to all of you.



Swizzles Joe
Posted - 2011.06.24 12:21:00 - [3234]
 

I just got paid and was going to resub and get some plex. Guess not till this mess has been cleaned up.
Vanity items for a reasonable price. Yes please hell id by a hat. Items that you pay real life money for? No thank you.

Alot of good points have been put up already so theres no point in saying them again or constantly quoting them but really this has to be the worse move ever.

Wakeland
Posted - 2011.06.24 12:21:00 - [3235]
 

Originally by: Kai'il Bhaal
Edited by: Kai''il Bhaal on 24/06/2011 12:18:43
ITT: Cry babies throwing tantrums, unsubbing, and being banned for IRL threats as they should be.


In This Post, a troll.

Glyken Touchon
Gallente
Independent Alchemists
Posted - 2011.06.24 12:22:00 - [3236]
 

Originally by: Sur Jamkar
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow

Given my position as a CSM, it would not be appropriate for me to advocate that my fellow players take a particular action.

Dude - It's time to man up son.
I think Trebor's responses are quite telling. Wait for CSM responses to CCP's damage control whenever it comes out.

Yabba Addict
Posted - 2011.06.24 12:22:00 - [3237]
 

Sorry Pann, until you address the debacle of that leaked document dubbed GREED IS GOOD I'm not reactivating my sub. I don't give a damn about the cost of the Noble Market

Lord Cath
Amarr
Gung-Ho
Posted - 2011.06.24 12:22:00 - [3238]
 

Edited by: Lord Cath on 24/06/2011 12:23:38
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal

As a recurring member of the CSM, whose duty it is to represent the players (something I took very seriously), I went to CCP to discuss the issue of microtransactions. In fact, this topic was discussed several times on CSM summits (both in October and in December). We were assured that microtransactions would be vanity items only.

I was told, to my face, that CCP would not sell anything in their virtual goods store that would not be a vanity item (vanity items being useless fluff, not giving any benefits). Now I read in your newsletter that one of your main game designers is openly argueing to break this promise. I take that as a personal insult and a clear sign of disrespect towards the Eve community as a whole. Shame on you for even considering to break your word!

I'm still subscribed, the but moment CCP will offer anything other than vanity items for PLEX/AURUM/etc is the moment I will cancel my accounts. In going for the 'hobbyist gamer' (casual gamers, even though eve isn't that casual gamer friendly), you seem to have forgotten a large part of your player base. The part that has shaped Eve over the years: the hardcore gamers. We don't come here as a hobby to experience an ultimate sci-fi simulator. We pay a subscription for an all-access pass to this crazy dystopian universe, where what you do, what you become and what you achieve comes down only to your skills and your effort. And because of that, our actions are meaningful.

By extending the virtual goods sales beyond vanity items you directly attack one of the things that seperates Eve from all the other MMOs out there: that actions are meaningful. If I can just buy faction standing, what meaning is there in doing missions for faction standings? What meaning is there in finally achieving 6.0 standing (for POSs) or 9.0 standing (for COSMOS missions)? And from what I read, that's not even the end of it!

Some people might enjoy spending more money 'on their hobby' like it was golf (an analogy that is inherently flawed, which I'll explain below), but due to the dystopian, merciless nature of Eve you've bred a community that exists for a large part out of hardcore players. People who see Eve as a serious business proving ground - not as a lighthearted diversion. These are the people who have allowed you to get to where you are today. These are the people who stuck by you over the past 8 years - even if they do call themselves "bittervets". To turn your back on those people is at best poor form, and at worst commercial suicide. Because Star Wars Galaxies has shown you can't just trade in one group of customers for another.

Why golf is not the same as eve
Specifically, buying golfclubs isn't the same as buying items in Eve. The equivalent would be if you could pay $100 to get one swing/strike/whatever it's called removed from your record. Instead of making a hole in 5, you could pay $400 and get it listed as a hole in one! Suddenly, your golf stats won't depend on how good you are, but simply on how much money you're willing to spend. Try to suggest that to golfers and see how they like it.

In Eve, just flying a spaceship isn't all there is to the gameplay. The effort to GET that spaceship is part of the game. The fact that it isn't easy to obtain certain things, achieve certain things or do certain things is exactly what makes these things meaningful. Meaningful to me AND to others, who can see what I have achieved. And now some game designer would like to take that away? Bad move CCP.



quoting in the hopes of it not going unnoriced

leth ghost
Posted - 2011.06.24 12:22:00 - [3239]
 

Originally by: xeitgeist

The person who posted CCP's leaked documents has been permanently banned on all accounts. Let this be an lesson to all of you.





says alot dont it

Aganola
Amarr
Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2011.06.24 12:22:00 - [3240]
 

Originally by: DeathCam
Originally by: Cherry Miranda
Ran into this earlier. Thought I'd share it.


LOL



Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
lol nice one


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