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Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.23 16:56:00 - [61]
 

Cataca: You do know that there are plenty of isk-faucets in game that aren't created by players... right?

Redblade
Reikoku
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2011.06.23 16:57:00 - [62]
 

Edited by: Redblade on 23/06/2011 16:58:23
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Originally by: Skex Relbore

Neither of those uses of plex resulted in anything being added to the game, it still required full use of the game mechanics to convert those plex into actual player usable items.


This is perhaps the only point I agree with you to certain extent. In the past some items in EVE have been player-produced, and SOME have been introduced by CCP (such as skillbooks, et cetera). Previously CCP has been going toward having less CCP-introduced items and going more toward a completely player controlled experience. This IS a step in the other direction. I agree. However, considering how RMT is affecting EVE, I think they had to take it (I can understand their reasoning).


I think that is where the line has to be drawn. If some one wants to buy lets say a scorpion for cash that's fine, use the cash to plex to isk way and you have your self a scorpion. Selling items that are created with time constraints and/or in game materials is from my POV not acceptable as it disturbs the natural order of things, that said buying a re-skinned ship for a base version of said ship + aurum i have no issue with.

Hope that made sense.

Edit: Kladdkaka for all constructive posters in this thread.

LIOZTH
Caldari
Divide By Zero
Dark Phoenix Rising.
Posted - 2011.06.23 17:01:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Kalmanaka
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
a bunch of crap

Thanks for completely failing to understand why people are upset. The aurum store opened with only items for the elite. Only people who have a lot of money can afford the items in it. It's like having your town get it's first movie theater only to find the tickets are $100 each.
CCP crapped all over the little guy and the little guy is mad.


+1 sir, I think the OP misses the point completely here. I might also add as to how interesting it is that a "player" is willing to step in for CCP, and break this down for us as if he himself was working for CCP.

Dakkan
Posted - 2011.06.23 17:03:00 - [64]
 

Any game that allows players to swipe a credit card and gain an advantage is no longer a game worth playing. It's no longer a matter of skill, teamwork, or logistics but a game of "who has spent more money". CCP will be indifferent as they'll have made a profit and have no stake in the outcome of in-game affairs.

People say you don't have to spend real money on PLEX since it can be bought with ISK. They're neglecting the fact that PLEX are only created through real-money purchases; someone has to swipe their credit card for there to be PLEX to purchase. Even if everyone in EVE was a billionaire, there would be no PLEX for players to own t-shirts or monocles unless someone swipes their credit card. We're pigeon-holed as a player-base into HAVING to give CCP money if the items are to exist in-game whatsoever. For those who are billionaires using ISK to pay for their 5 accounts, if everyone's buying up PLEX to get t-shirts and monocles it will create a shortage. This will either inflate the in-game price of PLEX or force you to swipe your credit card to pay for your account. Either way the only winner is CCP.

If we continue on the current route and ships, faction items, etc become purchasable through micro-transactions, it will throw off the balance of the entire universe. It takes time to gather ISK to purchase those PLEX. Meanwhile, if your opponent has enough balance on his credit card he'll have a new ship in 5 minutes. Imagine your alliance is at war with another alliance which is headed by some trust fund baby whose daddy owns a multi-billion dollar enterprise. Your corporation spends a few weeks gathering minerals and ISK to produce ships. Strip miners take 3 minute to cycle. Pirates take time to pop. A credit card takes maybe 30 seconds to process to save hours/days of work. Whoever has the most disposable income wins.

Micro-transactions costing $1-5 to gain cosmetic or novelty items are fine. $70 monocles and credit-card-swiped faction battleships are a sign of CCP's intentions. You no longer their valued subscriber whom they want to provide a fantastic science fiction experience to. You're a cow who they want milk for profit while they stroke your hand and tell you the Noble Store is optional. If you're one of those who flame the naysayers and don't have the foresight to find this unacceptable: you are one of the cows.

Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.23 17:06:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Dakkan
Any game that allows players to swipe a credit card and gain an advantage is no longer a game worth playing. It's no longer a matter of skill, teamwork, or logistics but a game of "who has spent more money". CCP will be indifferent as they'll have made a profit and have no stake in the outcome of in-game affairs.


You, liozth and Kalmanaka who clearly haven't read the posts in the thread: your complaints have already been addressed previously.

But Dakkan, the credit card thing has been a reality since before you started playing this game. The difference is that it is now more apparent. v0v

Dorian Tormak
M0N0LITH
Posted - 2011.06.23 17:07:00 - [66]
 

Good post +1

COMEATMEBRO IMHERE
Posted - 2011.06.23 17:08:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Dakkan
Micro-transactions costing $1-5 to gain cosmetic or novelty items are fine. $70 monocles and credit-card-swiped faction battleships are a sign of CCP's intentions. [/quote



so a monocle is no cosmetic item? and where can i buy this scorpion?

looks like you are a dumb moron just like all those other whiners.

Cataca
Posted - 2011.06.23 17:14:00 - [68]
 

Edited by: Cataca on 23/06/2011 17:14:23
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Cataca: You do know that there are plenty of isk-faucets in game that aren't created by players... right?


What kind of stupid argument is this? Oh right its like the argument you bring up in every single paragraph of your OP down to the end that "it is allready happening, so one more doesnt matter" yes, lets just ignore the issue at hand, because hey, its allready happening in a different form.

Take this for one for instance
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
It is already happening, the extreme version is people paying people real money to do things in-game. There are alliances out there in this game that are as strong as they are, not because they are better players but because they pay more. Whether it is by having ten computers with ten screens playing simultaneously, or simply by buying a **** ton of ISK to give their alliance assets or allies. If this aurum thing is what woke you up to see some kind of 'corruption' you have been lying to yourself for too long.


Is that actually supposed to be an argument for it? If so, i clearly cant see how.

If at all, and i can guess this from your OP, you are feeling so strongly against the RMT that is happening in the game right now, how can you write this with a straight face? You are basically supporting something you are against. It makes no sense, does it? Grow some balls, and actually stand for what you believe in maybe.

edit: quoting fail

Saskie Castillo
Posted - 2011.06.23 17:22:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Cataca
Edited by: Cataca on 23/06/2011 16:53:23
Originally by: Saskie Castillo
I agree 100%. The real issue here is that CCP have everything happening at once, too fast and with little to no player interaction.

MT has been in game since PLEXes, and yes, a lot of people has used it as a legitimate method of getting advantages over other players. I've helped them! I've been buying game time with ISK for years, but didn't feel bad about it at all. Tbh, I found the idea of ISK for PLEX and vice versa awesome.

The funny thing is that if all PLEXes were converted to AURUM, and you could buy game time with AURUM at the same exchange rates as today, nobody would complain about this currency. Of course, AURUM would still have to be tradable for ISK on the open market.

If PLEXes were converted to AURUM for Incarnia, and the vanity CQ shop in 6 months time, then I guess the ****storm would have been a lot less noticeable.

This expansion hasn't really changed the MT scene at all, the only change is that you can buy clothes, for ISK or real currency. You can do the same with mods, characters and ships anyway.

My concern is why it is all happening this fast and where it is going.


It makes my head split, really. Why is it so bloody hard to see the difference in Micro-Transactions and Real-Money-Transactions.

One gives you the ability to buy stuff ingame with real money, of the market controlled and driven by players. The other creates stuff out of thin air for real money.

RMTs are like giving other players the job to farm a certain amount of ISK, for which they will recieve money (both illegal and legal pathways) with this isk, the seller can only act within the player driven market so it goes right back into it. The only remification in this is that the one who spends money will save time (this is obviously a big deal when talking about alliances and farming the money for SC fleets) but its NOT introducing fresh isk to the game. (ignoring the way of aquisition here)

MT will create things out of thin air, for real life money, its an isk faucet. Depending on the items sold, it will give you game advatages not aviable to people not willing to spend cash to win the game. By completely ignoring the 3rd party (industrial, explorer miner or whatever) it will actually hurt them.



The line between MT and RMT is really blurry in this case tbh, its not black and white and it all depends on how you define MT vs RMT. One thing is certain though, as long as only vanity items are offered through AURUM, such as CQ clothing, AUR will not hurt anyone.

Items obtained by AURUM can't be made by players and thus not hurt anyone's profit. For miner or mission runner Joe, nothing has changed! AUR will only act as a GCT sink, and I have a feeling that a GCT sink was really needed.

If new items for AUR are introduced, items that compete with items created by players, then I agree, the system becomes a regular MT system and it will hurt the game.

Why AURUM is not hurting anyone:
To simplify the system, think of ISK and AURUM were the only currencies in game. And where game time could be purchased by AURUM alongside vanity items, items that could not be produced by players, say only clothing. Yes, the piece of clothing would be created out of thin air, but it would not be an ISK faucet. For the rest of the economy, the player driven economy, it would simply behave the way a GCT behaves now and it would not introduce ISK to the economy.

AUR only lets players chose between more game time and fluffy pixels, nothing else.

Dakkan
Posted - 2011.06.23 17:23:00 - [70]
 

I don't need to read your scintillating soliloquy to understand that micro-transactions are a business model that only benefits the company and adds no real value for the player-base.

A majority of the game was ruined for me when I realized that instead of grinding missions, mining, playing the market, or working industry. I could just swipe my credit card and in exchange for two hours at minimum wage (USD) I could be the proud owner of near a billion ISK saving myself hours of work. If I decided to take the ritious path of earning ISK the old fashioned way, it wouldn't matter if I was more capable than my opponent if he had higher disposable income.

It's not the fact that cosmetic items which are optional and purchased with PLEX are available. It's the principle of CCP going the route of micro-transactions with future plans of expanding micro-transactions to faction, ships, and ammunition. This would completely nullify the whole point of building an empire. Whoever swipes their credit card more wins. In the end the only winner is CCP.

I don't care if you're pointing out this has been around for a long time. You're defending it and/or stating "it's been around for a while" as if it makes it acceptable. It's a bad idea for the future of a quality game play experience in EVE Online.

Dakkan
Posted - 2011.06.23 17:25:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: COMEATMEBRO IMHERE
Originally by: Dakkan
Micro-transactions costing $1-5 to gain cosmetic or novelty items are fine. $70 monocles and credit-card-swiped faction battleships are a sign of CCP's intentions. [/quote



so a monocle is no cosmetic item? and where can i buy this scorpion?

looks like you are a dumb moron just like all those other whiners.


Apparently you missed the leaked Soundwave information and lack cognitive abilities.

J Kunjeh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.23 17:26:00 - [72]
 

Edited by: J Kunjeh on 23/06/2011 17:26:58
Great post Tobias. I mostly agree with you on the points made.

One thing I wonder is, why AUR? Why not just allow PLEX to be broken up and purchased in smaller increments...say, 5 days of game time at a time and of course you'd need 30 days worth in order to trade them in for any game time (only sold in 30 day increments). And then we could buy all "MT" items with smaller chunks of PLEX, which of course could be traded on the market. Also, "MT" items would be produced exclusively by the players (designed of course by CCP, like all things in-game, but BPO/BPC's would be sold to produce them).

And the clincher that makes it all work for CCP?

1. PLEX chunks have a set expiration date after which it disappears from your inventory (PLEX sink)
2. Purchases of limited run BPO's/BPC's can only be purchased from NPC's with PLEX chunks (PLEX sink)
3. PLEX chunks can be purchased with RL funds, or on the market from players with ISK

Am I just ignorant and clueless (quite possible), or wouldn't that solve the problem CCP has of needing a PLEX sink while at the same time enabling "MT"?

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.06.23 17:30:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Tobias Sjodin


When 95% of those concerns are uninformed complaints, insults, straight out false statements (or belief), attention-whoring, trolling and just genuine anti-change (whatever change that is)... yeah. Once the idea has reached a maturity enough that it is something CCP has thought through and then said "We are likely going to do this...", THEN sure we can have those 95% go on about it. But for every step, for every train of thought? No, not ever.

95% of statistics are made up.

This isn't a question of whether CCP is going to do this or not the fact is that they effectively have. Once the mechanic for MT is in place then it's simply a matter of a quick data base change to put stuff in place that isn't a vanity item.

IMO if we wait to voice our concerns until after CCP has made a decision official it will be too late. CCP does not have a good track record of admitting error.

Quote:

When you sell a plex you are buying someone's time. You are pretty much paying them in time so when I sell a plex to buy some ships to go get blown up. I am paying for the time another player spent earning that isk in exchange for that time I'm paying their sub. With a plex to aurum conversion I am paying CCP directly to create an item in that instant. No player action no time involved just a direct payment for an item. The only reason it is at all confused is that a plex can now be used either to pay for an item or to pay for someone's sub.


Yes. Did you miss my response when you stated this earlier?



Your response is contradictory. You try to justify MT by using RMT (which is not officially sanctioned while the former is) by talking about purchases of capital ships. You completely ignore the main point that even if someone uses funds gained through RMT and Botting that capital ship still takes time and resources to create it doesn't spring into existence the second the credit card is processed. If you but one off a market the original manufacturer still had to go through the general game mechanics to create it.

Quote:

Your definitions of 'earn' may be wider than mine. But with all the botting, the RL-resources funneled into the game to gain in-game advantages for RL-cash (ie. the acquisition of tech moons). I think there is enough of grey matter to go along to say that it isn't clear cut enough to separate them.

Even resources acquired through botting still use existing game mechanics. The ore does not appear instantly in the bot hulks hold, the Ratting/plexing bot still has to spend the time killing the NPC's and looting to collect the bounties and loot. Which allows at least in principle for a legit player to match them.

Understand I'm not condoning botting I'm just pointing out that MT is actually worse.

Quote:


I think it has everything to do with it. Because there probably are people out there running Voodoo-cards or machines that were outdated 10 years ago. Certainly all these people cannot play EVE on their current machines either and are thus excluded and cannot buy those plex which reduces CCP's revenue. The line needs to be drawn somewhere.


Those people who didn't meet the previous hardware reqs don't represent lost revenue where as someone who cancels their sub because the system that worked perfectly fine Sunday no longer works today does represent lost revenue.

It would be one thing if some actual functionality was added to a required portion of the game but this isn't the case. Incarna could have easily been implemented in a way that wouldn't have required an upgrade to anyone's computer to play the space side of the game while still encouraging upgrades to access the new content.

EVE is already a niche game reducing your potential customer base even further and alienating existing customers for no good reason is simply a bad business decision.

Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.23 17:32:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Cataca

What kind of stupid argument is this? Oh right its like the argument you bring up in every single paragraph of your OP down to the end that "it is allready happening, so one more doesnt matter" yes, lets just ignore the issue at hand, because hey, its allready happening in a different form.

Is that actually supposed to be an argument for it? If so, i clearly cant see how.

If at all, and i can guess this from your OP, you are feeling so strongly against the RMT that is happening in the game right now, how can you write this with a straight face? You are basically supporting something you are against. It makes no sense, does it? Grow some balls, and actually stand for what you believe in maybe.

edit: quoting fail



The reason why I say this is that A LOT of people think that this is something new, that somehow NOW it ruins the game. It doesn't. However...

Do you agree with that RMT'ing cannot be controlled? That players will buy **** in game for real-life money, and that it can't be stopped?

I accept this premise. The way I see it is that the actions by players/humans are what has led to this decision, ie. CCP realized that a vast number of their playerbase was botting, buying ISK, buying ships, and other in-game items and that they couldn't do much about it. It would go on whether they, you, or I liked it or not.

So instead of fighting the consumers buying power they implemented a feature into the game that gives CCP a cut.


Is it right or is it wrong? I think it's a grey area, it simply is. And this is one way of dealing with it.



J Kunjeh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.23 17:33:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Dakkan

If we continue on the current route and ships, faction items, etc become purchasable through micro-transactions, it will throw off the balance of the entire universe. It takes time to gather ISK to purchase those PLEX. Meanwhile, if your opponent has enough balance on his credit card he'll have a new ship in 5 minutes. Imagine your alliance is at war with another alliance which is headed by some trust fund baby whose daddy owns a multi-billion dollar enterprise. Your corporation spends a few weeks gathering minerals and ISK to produce ships. Strip miners take 3 minute to cycle. Pirates take time to pop. A credit card takes maybe 30 seconds to process to save hours/days of work. Whoever has the most disposable income wins.



But we've been able to do that for years. Purchase PLEX > sell on market > buy shiny new spacestuff

Warg Matar
Minmatar
The Red Circle Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.23 17:34:00 - [76]
 

Agreeing with Cataca. Your arguments are pretty thin, at best. Even if there are faucets, being able to dump real life cash straight into new modules/ships/ammo as the pdf with no doubt seem to suggest, it will create a very big ass new one. If eve had no player driven economy, it might not have mattered that much, but then again since there is so much complexity in this game which is supporting the economy itself it would make the game pretty shallow. Cryptic prolly wouldn't have thought twice about making it, but ccp shouldn't.

If Bill Gates wished to win eve, he would prolly run out of ships and modules to fight everyone else with cause there was no more guns and ammo left to buy of the empire market. Or people who buy gtc's and plex would just stop handing their isk over cause they were subbed past their natural lifetime.

Say stuff could be conjured up through straight RL money > PVP though, I say theres a good chance 0.0 could have been renamed "MS Empire".

I suppose I'm ignoring the so called black market RMT when writing this up but.. sorta hard to account for that one imo. This has to do with CCP features suggested by LEAD dev's, and not shady stuff which CCP "claims" to be combating. I believe theres reason enough to be mildly worried.

And if I'm not mistaken, this so called "whining" is how EvE responds to worrying clouds on the horizon :)

Saskie Castillo
Posted - 2011.06.23 17:37:00 - [77]
 

Edited by: Saskie Castillo on 23/06/2011 17:38:42
Originally by: J Kunjeh
Great post Tobias

One thing I wonder is, why AUR? Why not just allow PLEX to be broken up and purchased in smaller increments...say, 5 days of game time at a time and of course you'd need 30 days worth in order to trade them in for any game time (only sold in 30 day increments). And then we could buy all "MT" items with smaller chunks of PLEX, which of course could be traded on the market. Also, "MT" items would be produced exclusively by the players (designed of course by CCP, like all things in-game, but BPO/BPC's would be sold to produce them).



Exactly my thoughts. The possible reasons for not breaking down GCT, or converting all GCT to AUR and let AUR pay for vanity items and subscription time has been bugging me. It would certainly "look" a lot less like the dirty MT system that is in place right now.

One of the reasons to go with the GCT -> AUR might have been to lock down AUR to the player account, it can't be traded on the market and thus removes tradable currency on the free market. It allows the game economy to soak up more real life money without suffering from the side effects. The vanity store prices seems to point to this, as no item is worth exactly 1 GCT.

Dakkan
Posted - 2011.06.23 17:39:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
And this is one way of dealing with it.





A poor, easy fix solution that benefits CCP. If a portion of the player-base is bending the rules for their own ease, how is "assisting" the rest of the player-base in reaching this same end for CCP profit an acceptable solution?

Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.23 17:41:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Skex Relbore

This isn't a question of whether CCP is going to do this or not the fact is that they effectively have. Once the mechanic for MT is in place then it's simply a matter of a quick data base change to put stuff in place that isn't a vanity item.



Now that IS a slippery slope if I ever saw one. CCP implemented Faction warfare, that effectively leads to them developing it into a viable, functioning, fun gameplay because that's one of the possible outcomes? Ohplease.

Quote:

Your response is contradictory. You try to justify MT by using RMT (which is not officially sanctioned while the former is) by talking about purchases of capital ships. You completely ignore the main point that even if someone uses funds gained through RMT and Botting that capital ship still takes time and resources to create it doesn't spring into existence the second the credit card is processed. If you but one off a market the original manufacturer still had to go through the general game mechanics to create it.


so back to my previous post:

$ -> Aurum = BAD
$ -> PLEX -> ISK -> AURUM = GOOD

PLEX, AURUM, It's the same damn thing with a different name tbqfh.

Read my previous post on my stance about MT vs. RMT. (ie. necessary evil)

Quote:

Even resources acquired through botting still use existing game mechanics. The ore does not appear instantly in the bot hulks hold, the Ratting/plexing bot still has to spend the time killing the NPC's and looting to collect the bounties and loot. Which allows at least in principle for a legit player to match them.

Understand I'm not condoning botting I'm just pointing out that MT is actually worse.


I accept your opinion, but do not share it.

Quote:

Those people who didn't meet the previous hardware reqs don't represent lost revenue where as someone who cancels their sub because the system that worked perfectly fine Sunday no longer works today does represent lost revenue.

It would be one thing if some actual functionality was added to a required portion of the game but this isn't the case. Incarna could have easily been implemented in a way that wouldn't have required an upgrade to anyone's computer to play the space side of the game while still encouraging upgrades to access the new content.

EVE is already a niche game reducing your potential customer base even further and alienating existing customers for no good reason is simply a bad business decision.


I disagree. Having to spend a lot of time and resources to support outdated hardware effectively will create a lot of dissatisfied customers that cannot experience the game. Not because the game is bad, but because their computers are.

You do realize what computers and graphics cards that were axed?

Cataca
Posted - 2011.06.23 17:41:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Saskie Castillo

The line between MT and RMT is really blurry in this case tbh, its not black and white and it all depends on how you define MT vs RMT. One thing is certain though, as long as only vanity items are offered through AURUM, such as CQ clothing, AUR will not hurt anyone.

Items obtained by AURUM can't be made by players and thus not hurt anyone's profit. For miner or mission runner Joe, nothing has changed! AUR will only act as a GCT sink, and I have a feeling that a GCT sink was really needed.

If new items for AUR are introduced, items that compete with items created by players, then I agree, the system becomes a regular MT system and it will hurt the game.

Why AURUM is not hurting anyone:
To simplify the system, think of ISK and AURUM were the only currencies in game. And where game time could be purchased by AURUM alongside vanity items, items that could not be produced by players, say only clothing. Yes, the piece of clothing would be created out of thin air, but it would not be an ISK faucet. For the rest of the economy, the player driven economy, it would simply behave the way a GCT behaves now and it would not introduce ISK to the economy.

AUR only lets players chose between more game time and fluffy pixels, nothing else.


Sure, as long as it is vanity items. Did you read the CCP newsletter? They will not stop there.

Apart from that, yes i dont mind it as a plex sink. And yes, you dont have to pay for any of those items. But seriously? Do you honestly, really believe those prices are anywhere near fine? They are a statement that they think of you, as a customer as lemming who will pay as much for pixel clothing as for real stuff.

and all that for
Quote:
a subscription based golden goose, EVE needs to incorporate the virtual goods sales model to allow for further revenue revenue to fund our other titles


besides, they said it will be in there
Quote:
Not all virtual purchases will focus on customization: some will simply be new items, ammunition, ships, etc. that can be purchased outright.


Seriously, how can you not feel screwed?
Course, you can bow down and take it like a loyal customer, but the lube WILL cost extra.

Cataca
Posted - 2011.06.23 17:54:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
The reason why I say this is that A LOT of people think that this is something new, that somehow NOW it ruins the game. It doesn't. However...

Do you agree with that RMT'ing cannot be controlled? That players will buy **** in game for real-life money, and that it can't be stopped?

I accept this premise. The way I see it is that the actions by players/humans are what has led to this decision, ie. CCP realized that a vast number of their playerbase was botting, buying ISK, buying ships, and other in-game items and that they couldn't do much about it. It would go on whether they, you, or I liked it or not.

So instead of fighting the consumers buying power they implemented a feature into the game that gives CCP a cut.


Is it right or is it wrong? I think it's a grey area, it simply is. And this is one way of dealing with it.



So you simply give up? I actually dont mind that kind of answer, i dont know you, i cant really relate to you so thats just fine. Deciding that for your own is all good, but what gives you the right to decide it should be the same for the others? Should we just kneel down in front of the mighty CCP demigods and accept our fate?

Dont get me wrong, its not that i feel like the grand defender of justice here. But i feel as a consumer and a long term customer of CCP i have the right to voice my concerns. Illegal RMT should not be ignored in any case, but allowing a large scale pay to win/isk faucet/market sabotage service? Thats worse.

Dakkan
Posted - 2011.06.23 17:57:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Cataca
Dont get me wrong, its not that i feel like the grand defender of justice here. But i feel as a consumer and a long term customer of CCP i have the right to voice my concerns. Illegal RMT should not be ignored in any case, but allowing a large scale pay to win/isk faucet/market sabotage service? Thats worse.


+1

Batelle
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2011.06.23 18:02:00 - [83]
 

Edited by: Batelle on 23/06/2011 18:02:43
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
I have addressed this. Devs talk a lot, they put a lot of it in writing, and in the end it is what is implemented that matters.

Quote:

2) The fact that CCP has lied about Walking in Stations being optional content.



You do not have to load the station environment. Which I believe CCP will stick to, considering the feedback. If they DO force the players to use CQ, and it is a matter of performance issues, that has to be fixed like any other bugs in the game.



Yes, the bottom line is what is actually implemented. The problem is CCP said it would be optional, but as it turns out they've given it so little thought that the only way to do it is with a menu button that they've already said they would take away. Unless they bring back the hangar as an intermediary, people will leave the CQ off for convenience when making quick trips to dock. Frankly, I don't think they will bring back the hangar view, because they have a very clear financial incentive to force people into the CQ so they can see their avatar and be filled with a desire to purchase vanity items. As for responding to player feedback, Soundwave was pretty damn clear that he knows that there is vocal opposition to his vision for MT and EVE, and that he wants to move forward anyway. This underscores a deficit in trust and communication that CSM candidates have bemoaned for quite a while. Eve players say "this is what we want." Eve devs say "lets do this instead, because it will be awesome."

Quote:

Quote:

4) The overwhelming sentiment that CCP has focused none of their anti-RMT efforts on disrupting bots.



They have tried, but they have been overwhelmed. There is so much botting, RMT'ing, and "cheating" going on in EVE that it is an insurmountable goal to try and stop it. How much resources should be spent on TRYING to stop them even though the perception still is that CCP hasn't "TRIED" regardless of what they do?



Yet CCP has to my knowledge never released a devblog about botting except in how it is used to supply isk sellers, never left a blue post responding to the EN24 fueled threadnaughts over botting, and meanwhile there are plenty of people saying CCP has plenty of incentives to ONLY tackle the botting problem from the isk selling side. To me and many players, their silence on the botting issue is a tacit admission of them not giving a ****. In other words, you can run a bot account or two for yourself to rake in billions of isk a week, and as long as you aren't selling it for cash, not only will CCP not be able to do anything, they also won't even care. I point specifically to the fact that people caught botting are only given temporary bans, so they can still get their $15 a month from that account.

Ana Vyr
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.23 18:13:00 - [84]
 

I was kinda hoping that clothing and things like that would be part of what was manufacturable for Incarna player-run shops to sell to other players for ISK. I guess I can throw that hope out the window at this point.

scepternine
Gallente
podsquish
Posted - 2011.06.23 18:18:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: LIOZTH
I might also add as to how interesting it is that a "player" is willing to step in for CCP, and break this down for us as if he himself was working for CCP.


Yes, anyone that doesn't agree with you is working for CCP. Great thinking there, Jim.

Cataca
Posted - 2011.06.23 18:26:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: scepternine
Originally by: LIOZTH
I might also add as to how interesting it is that a "player" is willing to step in for CCP, and break this down for us as if he himself was working for CCP.


Yes, anyone that doesn't agree with you is working for CCP. Great thinking there, Jim.


Sure, thats rather silly. But then again, i have yet to see any reason speaking FOR it.

Saskie Castillo
Posted - 2011.06.23 18:39:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Cataca

Quote:
a subscription based golden goose, EVE needs to incorporate the virtual goods sales model to allow for further revenue revenue to fund our other titles


besides, they said it will be in there
Quote:
Not all virtual purchases will focus on customization: some will simply be new items, ammunition, ships, etc. that can be purchased outright.


Seriously, how can you not feel screwed?
Course, you can bow down and take it like a loyal customer, but the lube WILL cost extra.



If CCP decides to roll out the suggestions they listed in the apparently leaked document and allow the purchase of items that compete with the open market items through AUR, then yes, I will feel screwed and probably pack my stuff. I will not feel screwed because other players get an unfair advantage or that in-game power can be bought with cash, because that is status quo. I will feel screwed because it breaks the cornerstone of this very sandbox.

Cataca
Posted - 2011.06.23 18:56:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Saskie Castillo
If CCP decides to roll out the suggestions they listed in the apparently leaked document and allow the purchase of items that compete with the open market items through AUR, then yes, I will feel screwed and probably pack my stuff. I will not feel screwed because other players get an unfair advantage or that in-game power can be bought with cash, because that is status quo. I will feel screwed because it breaks the cornerstone of this very sandbox.


Exactly that is the issue im trying to bring across for the most part of this thread now. It bypasses eve. The plex and RMT while bad still go entirely through the market. Several layers of players profit from plex, it is regulated within the market, and its price is determined by supply and demand. It doesnt break the fundamentals the game is based on.

Shadyan
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.06.26 18:35:00 - [89]
 

This is a loada crock. After my subscribtion ends, im out....



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