open All Channels
seplocked EVE General Discussion
blankseplocked How I learned to stop worrying and love the bomb
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 [2] 3

Author Topic

Wacktopia
Sicarius.
Legion of The Damned.
Posted - 2011.06.23 15:13:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Wacktopia on 23/06/2011 15:15:59

Here's my take on it:

CCP put in a lot of time and effort for forewarn us about the MT. Including the CSM in discussions so we understood it and 'knew it was coming'. Whilst I and other players probably don't like the idea of micro-transactions, if this is something that CCP feel that they want/need to introduce into the game then let it be so. CCP did a good job of being transparent here.

Shortly after this the concept of AUR was published, showing how we can convert existing ISK > PLEX > AUR > Items > ISK, with the existing feed of PLEX coming from $$$. This seemed a little strange, seeming as ISK and PLEX already exist and would support a MT market. However, CCP explained AUR by saying that a PLEX was "too large" in itself to use as a currency and they wanted something "smaller". Furthermore, it would give them a variable factor in between PLEX and AUR to "help control PLEX prices".

Then we get the product. First problem is that the items cost seems to cut completely against the very nature and vocabulary of MT (the M = micro, right?). I was seriously expecting to see items of clothing that equated to a $1 or $2. A bit like an app in an app-store. This is the whole essence of how MT should work - players purchase many small items at a price they perceive to be inconsequential to them. The win is in the volume sale here - it should be obvious, hoerver, CCP managed to achieve the exact opposite of this.

Why does the massive price matter? The price leaves the player base feeling cheated. Existing players who were looking forward to Incarna / barbie dolls have to pay through the nose to wear a new style of tshirt. Or can you imagine a new player wanting to buy something as simple as a monocle... that will be 4 billion ISK please or 4 months game time. The price is just so off-the-scale it's un-imaginable how they decided on it.

So we move on to, and this is the big one, the issue of trust. Throughout the whole MT process CCP has been fairly open and honest about the way MT would be implemented. Well, beware the smiling tiger; out comes Incarna and there is this big nasty surprise and feeling that somehow we're all going to get cheated big time in the next few years.

Sure, there are people yelling "BUT JUST DON'T WEAR A MONOCLE". True. Don't need to wear a monocle. However, suppose in future they break that trust we're all worried about and bring out non-vanity items that are only obtainable via the NeX store, for which CCP control the ISK exchange rate for? This is probably what players are really worried about - less so the monocle. Now, you made a very good point that players can buy Plex > ISK > Ships now and gain an advantage, however, it should be noted that it is entirely possible to perform well in the game at present without having to do this. Could this change in future? Perhaps... time will tell.

Finally, on to immersion. I have to bring these up:

- how can a monocle / boots /etc cost the same as a mile long space ship?
- how come when you die your monocle / boots / etc magically appear back at your med clone
- I thought we were naked in the pod anyway?
- Why do we have to leave our pod to change ship now? Why not Dock > Hangar > CQ

The NeX / AUR system and their prices just a jolt to immersion, which ironically is what CCP were wanting to achieve with CQ.

TL;DR - Trust, Poor MT business model, Immersion-breaker.

Bane Necran
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.23 15:14:00 - [32]
 

I'm hoping it's not as bad as the purported internal newsletter makes it sound.

Merely commenting on it while we don't know one way or the other.

Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.06.23 15:17:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Reldor Silverheart
Edited by: Reldor Silverheart on 23/06/2011 15:03:00
Originally by: Janus Talmash
So the OP agrees to buying faction standing for money then? How about complete ships or faction ammo only available for Aurum, not produced by anyone, moved by anyone but just created out of thin air. Faction POS towers, aurum only and ready to use.

One must be a giant ****ing moron to agree to that.


That isn't even confirmed by CCP, all you have to go on there is a doccument alledelgy by CCP, but it could VERY WELL be manufactured to put CCP at the bad side. Thing is, there's people that's willing to go far to discredit a company, or make it look good.


Take a look here.

Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.23 15:17:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Tippia
the NeX shows that

1. CCP has no clue about what they're doing.
2. They don't understand their customers.
3. They don't understand microtransactions.
4. They don't understand the business model.
5. They're setting themselves up for a massive waste of time and resources on something they don't understand.



1. I think they do, please show me how they don't? (I do not agree that a vocal minority on the forums are an indication of it)
2. Which customers do you speak of? Just because you feel mad and let down does not mean every customer feels mad or let down. Buying a monocle is optional, as is being a customer in the first place.
3. Are you trying to say that because they charge $80 for a monocle, it is NOT a microtransaction? I could agree with that to a certain extent.
4. That is a bold statement, care to elaborate?
5. Now this seems a bit out of control, they obviously CAN run a business and their business is doing very well. EVE is showing a steady increase of subscribers, and only a minority of these are as upset as those 50-100 that are currently raging on these forums.

Redblade
Reikoku
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2011.06.23 15:21:00 - [35]
 

Nice post, agree for the most part, there are some things that shouldn't be sold flat out for cash as it would disrupt the flow of the game economy and it can already be achieved through plex as you described anyway.

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.06.23 15:30:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Tobias Sjodin

Just because someone does A, does not mean they will do B. Raging about possible outcomes is a waste of time.

(If they indeed prove to be right... well, let's say that I (and many others) today can pay $800 or 20 billion to get a character with... say 60 million skillpoints. And that several people do so whether we like it or not.)


It's not a slippery slope argument if we see evidence that the suggested actions are being considered by CCP.(see fearless document)
They were even talking about charging for the ability to have more than 50 saved fittings something that should have been a part of the system to begin with. So we see a case where existing functionality has been reduced in order to create a market for MT.

There is also a huge difference between plex for isk and plex for aurum to be used in the creation of items. Under the old system a plex was simply a representation of 1 months worth of game subscription. Nothing was added to the economy all the isk still had to be generated the old fashioned way by going out and earning it through existing game mechanics.

This also limited the demand for plex to being no more than the need of the community for "free" gametime. Even the plex for charity just worked out to a convenient way for CCP to collect donations without having to gather a bunch of credit card numbers.

Neither of those uses of plex resulted in anything being added to the game, it still required full use of the game mechanics to convert those plex into actual player usable items.

The final fact is whether you see a difference or not a significant portion of the player base does and perception is 99% of reality when it comes to behavior.

On the Ambulation and the CQ,while it is certainly true that there is a faction of the player base who simply do not want any resources spent on WIS at all most just seem to want to make it optional. You know like it was originally supposed to be so that they can dock up do their business and get out or if they like they can disembark and go the to CQ or the rest of the station once it exists.

Oh and on the subject of WIS they've been working on this stuff for how long again? Yet they have only managed to deliver a buggy resource intensive solo instance with crappy controls and virtually no functionality beyond the old NEOCOM in fact truth be told save for the agent finder it actually represents a reduction in functionality as well as a speed penalty when docking.

Add to that the fact that the mandatory nature of the CQ just cut out a large portion of the player base who weren't using hardware that is Shader 3 compatible and not everyone can afford to drop a $100 plus on a new video card particularly those who are out of work but can continue to play EVE because of the Plex for ISK system.

Even for those of us with relatively beefy hardware are experiencing a degradation in performance. An instance of EVE now uses 1gb on high settings and only dropped to about 850mb on the lowest settings which seriously hinders people who were running multiple accounts. It's not uncommon for me to have 3 accounts running 1 active 1 in Jita to trade with and a 3rd in some sort of hauler bringing stuff to market from Jita. I'm not even sure I could run all 3 even in low settings now hell I'm having enough trouble with two to the point where I'm considering installing a second video card to run my alts monitor.

The number of bad business decisions involved in this expansion and just recently in general is mind boggling.

In fact the general direction CCP has been taking lately is generally disturbing, From the "upgrade" to the fitting tool that actually reduced functionality to the horrible new forum roll out and now with Incarna, Well I'm not quite to cancelling my subs point but I'm getting pretty damned close.

CCP ignores the criticism at their peril. My job isn't riding on this their's is. Hell it would save me 35 bucks a month if they keep it up.

Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.23 15:34:00 - [37]
 

Personally I do not feel a need to buy any of the items offered through Aurum. Nor do I feel any hostility towards the developers that implemented the NeX/Aurum mechanic, nor the players that actually pay for them. I accept the fact that some players want to buy things that are available in-game with real money.

I suppose a way of protesting against it is to not buy anything, but I doubt that is going to happen. There are a lot of players out there that gladly pay for stuff that enhance their hobbies/gaming experience.

Blacksquirrel
Posted - 2011.06.23 15:37:00 - [38]
 

I find it funny that more people are upset with the prospect of CCP doing RMT stuff rather than all the bot companies or say thousands of players that spend THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS ON ISK OR ITEMS. You remember when that list was released some people spend over 2k alone. You wanna know why a monocle cost so much? Because people drop that kinda money already. RMT companies make hundreds of thousands of dollars through eve alone... This must mean people dont really have a problem with RMT all that much.

In fact everyone here can probably say that they know of someone in their alliance or think they know someone that is guilty of this.

2. Plex has been out for how long?

Now I get people who are against botting and RMT in general, but look at the boards there's way more people upset about incarna than the illegal RMT stuff. In fact I can see a few names of people who got banned for botting (2weeks etc) that are complaining about this.

Devil's Call
Caldari
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2011.06.23 15:41:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Devil''s Call on 23/06/2011 15:44:11
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Personally I do not feel a need to buy any of the items offered through Aurum. Nor do I feel any hostility towards the developers that implemented the NeX/Aurum mechanic, nor the players that actually pay for them. I accept the fact that some players want to buy things that are available in-game with real money.

I suppose a way of protesting against it is to not buy anything, but I doubt that is going to happen. There are a lot of players out there that gladly pay for stuff that enhance their hobbies/gaming experience.


Exactly. The problem is though... Tobias, that because of our nature, we are basically forced to buy the monocle. The people that are mad feel that they NEED to buy it, not because it gives them an advantage, but simply because they don't have it. I personally couldn't give a wooden nickel about them, although I will most likely buy a monocle to **** poor peasants off. (HOO, it was a joke, now take it easy... peasants.)

Edit: Blizzard (You might've heard about one of their games, 'world of warcraft') also has a vanity store for in-game items. Twice now, they've released some fancy in-game mount. On the day of release, they cashed over 4 milion euro's with those. I think CCP thinks they can do such things aswell, with monocle's that are 3 times the price of those mounts.

Batelle
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2011.06.23 15:45:00 - [40]
 

You may be completely right, but you haven't addressed at all many of the issues that are fueling the rage.

1) The feeling that CCP has lied about its plans for MT in order to phase it in.

-Faction standings and exclusive ships are completely contradictory to what had been promised.

2) The fact that CCP has lied about Walking in Stations being optional content.

-No separate tab on the menu for Captain's Quarters graphics settings is absolutely ridiculous.
-CCP has stated that the option to not load the CQ will only be temporarily available.

3) The feeling that CCP is no longer interested in providing quality gameplay content for EVE, and is more interested in monetizing EVE to fund development of other projects.

-I don't think there is any dispute that CCP is devoting less development resources to EVE than it used to do.

4) The overwhelming sentiment that CCP has focused none of their anti-RMT efforts on disrupting bots.

-It may be the cold hard truth that you can't stop RMT, but to the average player, CCP hasn't even tried. Documented petitions of macro-isk farmers result in one-day bans. Many people see bots daily. CCP hasn't even taken the easiest of steps, that being to check accounts of the most egregious offenders, those accounts logged in and ratting/mining 23/7 for weeks at a time. To my knowledge, CCP never responded at all to the outcry over bots a few months ago.


I am working on the assumption that the leaked document was legit. Even if you disagree, I hope I've outlined why people are so mad. I'd also like to point out that I have no issues with MT for vanity items, hell a couple hundred mil isk or a few bucks for some customization would be something I would jump at. I also have wanted to see WiS for years. I still think this latest expansion was a piece of junk, and withholding basic features like more than 50 fittings slots just to have something more to sell is a bunch of ****ing bull****.

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.06.23 15:45:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Personally I do not feel a need to buy any of the items offered through Aurum. Nor do I feel any hostility towards the developers that implemented the NeX/Aurum mechanic, nor the players that actually pay for them. I accept the fact that some players want to buy things that are available in-game with real money.

I suppose a way of protesting against it is to not buy anything, but I doubt that is going to happen. There are a lot of players out there that gladly pay for stuff that enhance their hobbies/gaming experience.


CCP are prepared to directly charge for $80 for a digital item (one which does nothing but that is a side issue).

That's basically immoral and indicative of corporate greed.

Even this I could stomach, but it is within the context of failures to meet expectations in so many other aspects of this game that subscribers already pay $15 a month for.

CCP chose to write a document that asks not what they can do to address those long held wishes of its current loyal customers, but instead to seek opinion from its employees as to how best wring more money from them.

In short: "how do we squeeze more money from our players" not "how do we improve our product".

Not only that but entitling that document 'Greed is Good - The Gordon Gecko Issue' is both offensive and repugnant to me - the paying customer.

C.

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.06.23 15:48:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Personally I do not feel a need to buy any of the items offered through Aurum. Nor do I feel any hostility towards the developers that implemented the NeX/Aurum mechanic, nor the players that actually pay for them. I accept the fact that some players want to buy things that are available in-game with real money.

I suppose a way of protesting against it is to not buy anything, but I doubt that is going to happen. There are a lot of players out there that gladly pay for stuff that enhance their hobbies/gaming experience.


I was never planning on buying anything, the insane pricing just helped to reaffirm that position.

I seriously doubt that anyone who's fundamentally opposed to MT give a crap about the $80 monocle it just makes for a good laughing point to show that CCP doesn't even understand the concept of Micro-transactions which makes it even more amusing to watch them get torn up over the issue.

the concern people have is that there would be advantages that could be purchased that can not be earned through in game means. Seriously if CCP really wanted to do this right they'd have the NEX store simply use ISK then this whole frigging debate would never have happened they could have had their micro-transaction model and satisfied the "OMG Inflation" crowd in one fell swoop.

But no they invent an entirely new currency and bite off this huge controversy.

Then they further exacerbate their problems with the mandatory CQ, How frigging hard would it have been to have just had a disembark button in the hanger neocom? Hell if I understand it that's how it was originally implemented.

If they'd done that then people could choose to enter the CQ or not, they could have kept their lower hardware requirements for the spaceship side of the game while getting to require the higher tech to use the additional functionality of WIS.

This isn't complicated yet they've chosen to make it so. Now they're getting rage-piled and honestly have no one to blame but themselves.

IMO they should as quickly as possible revert to the old hanger with an added button for disembark and just get rid of Aurum and make the NEX store ISK based. Then people will still be able to MT by selling plex but CCP won't be seen as directly selling items for real world money.

Blacksquirrel
Posted - 2011.06.23 15:48:00 - [43]
 

^
We'll have to wait and see if they actually do offer ships etc for money. Once it's official get angery.

2. When did they ever say incarna would be optional?

3.Still a ton of hypocrites out there *****ing about RMT when the damn "Illegal" market for it is so profitable, and prevalent.

Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.23 15:56:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Skex Relbore

It's not a slippery slope argument if we see evidence that the suggested actions are being considered by CCP.(see fearless document)
They were even talking about charging for the ability to have more than 50 saved fittings something that should have been a part of the system to begin with. So we see a case where existing functionality has been reduced in order to create a market for MT.



As I've stated previously (regardless whether that document is authentic or not) developers consider a lot of alternatives. They always will. The reason why they keep documents such as that from their customers is that they are aware that ANY tidbit of information in such a document will be analyzed, re-analyzed and a lot of people will be able to interpret them in a negative light and rage on forums about it. It is a slippery slope to argue that because of possibility a, that would lead to possibility b, and c, and then they are selling real live children for ISK (pardon my sad attempt at humour).

Quote:

There is also a huge difference between plex for isk and plex for aurum


I do not agree that there is a huge difference. Essentially it is the means to convert between real money and ISK. Aurum being more directly involved with vanity items, and PLEX being more directly involved with subscription.

Quote:

Neither of those uses of plex resulted in anything being added to the game, it still required full use of the game mechanics to convert those plex into actual player usable items.


This is perhaps the only point I agree with you to certain extent. In the past some items in EVE have been player-produced, and SOME have been introduced by CCP (such as skillbooks, et cetera). Previously CCP has been going toward having less CCP-introduced items and going more toward a completely player controlled experience. This IS a step in the other direction. I agree. However, considering how RMT is affecting EVE, I think they had to take it (I can understand their reasoning).

Quote:

[...]make it optional. You know like it was originally supposed to be



As far as I know you can choose not to load CQ.

Quote:

1. crappy controls and virtually no functionality beyond the old NEOCOM
2. mandatory nature of the CQ just cut out a large portion of the player base who weren't using hardware that is Shader 3 compatible and not everyone can afford to drop a $100 plus on a new video card particularly those who are out of work but can continue to play EVE because of the Plex for ISK system.
3.The number of bad business decisions involved in this expansion and just recently in general is mind boggling.



1. Personally I appreciate that this is a launching platform and iteration for the rest of 'walking in stations', as for the lack of functionality, they've replaced a lot of dated codebase with new one and granted it has stuff that needs to be rebuilt into the new codebase, but to be honest I see only a few missing functions here.

2. I have little sympathy toward people that can afford a computer, Internet, and "feel sad because they don't afford the latest hardware". Playing games like these are not a human right as you try and make it out to be.

3. I strongly disagree. Business-wise this is sound. What CCP have to be wary of though is that they do with this like they've been doing in the past, ie. deploying an unfinished product and not developing it to a point where it is finished to such an extent that it is a viable career (faction warfare).

Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.23 16:00:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Devil's Call

Exactly. The problem is though... Tobias, that because of our nature, we are basically forced to buy the monocle.



Strongly disagree. We have a choice, some people are overly emotional and lack maturity to control themselves. These are the type of individuals that become addicted to alcohol, gaming, et cetera. Certainly this type of addictive personality will be ill affected by these juicy monocles and pants. But the rest of us will simply choose to buy it if we want it, or not buy it if we don't want it.

Wacktopia
Sicarius.
Legion of The Damned.
Posted - 2011.06.23 16:00:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Business-wise this is sound.


Business-wise, MT should be sound.

CCP have priced themselves well out of the 'average player's market for simple clothing items. MT model lends itself more readily to lost cost; high volume. For example, the Apple AppStore.

Tugrath Akers
Posted - 2011.06.23 16:03:00 - [47]
 

Good stuff Tobias.

Breaking news: Businesses like to make money.
More breaking news: It's easier to lower prices than to raise them.

More at 11.

Reloadin
Posted - 2011.06.23 16:03:00 - [48]
 

Finally some common sense on the forums.


Cataca
Posted - 2011.06.23 16:05:00 - [49]
 

RMT is not only in this game in the form of the illegal black market it is also Plex to isk. You fail to understand tho, that in every case, even through the illegal black market, someone had to grind the isk. In the end, no matter how much money you throw at the game to convert to isk, it will allways be within the limitations of the market. There is no real harm done to the market, nor to the sandbox. Sure, it sucks that others will have the ability to just "buy" supercarriers, but you need to understand that this money essentially flows into the market again.

Microtransactions are a different pair of shoes alltogether. You throw money at a store, and items appear out of thin air (isk faucet). Even worse the CCP newsletter states that vanity items will not be the end. Now, if you have something you can only get by spending cash on it instead of beeing readily aviable on the market...

THIS is what people are worried about, not frigging ships you can get by normal farming, the exclusive i pay to win club ships/turrets/boosters/ammo is what drives people nuts. We are not talking about gaining a time advantage compared to players who dont sell plex, we are talking about getting better gear by throwing money at a store. Or creating money out of thin air. This is a terrible idea.

And dont give me the "but you can buy plex with isk so you dont have to spend money" bull****. A plex is ALLWAYS money. By throwing it at the store you reward CCP for milking money, you practically... bow down and take it like the loyal fan you are, lube costs extra.

And the argument you bring up in every single paragraph down to the end that "it is allready happening, so if ccp does it too its awesome" is neither good, nor does it make any sense.

Rex Liberium
Posted - 2011.06.23 16:08:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Originally by: Devil's Call

Exactly. The problem is though... Tobias, that because of our nature, we are basically forced to buy the monocle.



Strongly disagree. We have a choice, some people are overly emotional and lack maturity to control themselves. These are the type of individuals that become addicted to alcohol, gaming, et cetera. Certainly this type of addictive personality will be ill affected by these juicy monocles and pants. But the rest of us will simply choose to buy it if we want it, or not buy it if we don't want it.



Have fun stopping the MT-hordes that will eventually buy their way into your systems. Then there is no choice, only consequence if you stick to your 'I won't buy nothing never attitude'.

I for one wont grab ankles and accept. But to each his own.

Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.23 16:09:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Batelle
You may be completely right, but you haven't addressed at all many of the issues that are fueling the rage.

1) The feeling that CCP has lied about its plans for MT in order to phase it in.


-Faction standings and exclusive ships are completely contradictory to what had been promised.



I have addressed this. Devs talk a lot, they put a lot of it in writing, and in the end it is what is implemented that matters.

Quote:

2) The fact that CCP has lied about Walking in Stations being optional content.

-No separate tab on the menu for Captain's Quarters graphics settings is absolutely ridiculous.
-CCP has stated that the option to not load the CQ will only be temporarily available.



You do not have to load the station environment. Which I believe CCP will stick to, considering the feedback. If they DO force the players to use CQ, and it is a matter of performance issues, that has to be fixed like any other bugs in the game.

Quote:

3) The feeling that CCP is no longer interested in providing quality gameplay content for EVE, and is more interested in monetizing EVE to fund development of other projects.

-I don't think there is any dispute that CCP is devoting less development resources to EVE than it used to do.



The "feeling" or perception if you will of what goes on, and what actually goes on are not necessarily the same. If you look at the patch notes there seems to be A LOT of development time behind this patch, suggesting that while the changes made not all have been on the obvious scale of 'graphics rehaul' or 'wormholes', there still has been a lot.

Quote:

4) The overwhelming sentiment that CCP has focused none of their anti-RMT efforts on disrupting bots.

-It may be the cold hard truth that you can't stop RMT, but to the average player, CCP hasn't even tried. Documented petitions of macro-isk farmers result in one-day bans. Many people see bots daily. CCP hasn't even taken the easiest of steps, that being to check accounts of the most egregious offenders, those accounts logged in and ratting/mining 23/7 for weeks at a time. To my knowledge, CCP never responded at all to the outcry over bots a few months ago.



They have tried, but they have been overwhelmed. There is so much botting, RMT'ing, and "cheating" going on in EVE that it is an insurmountable goal to try and stop it. How much resources should be spent on TRYING to stop them even though the perception still is that CCP hasn't "TRIED" regardless of what they do?

Quote:

I am working on the assumption that the leaked document was legit. Even if you disagree, I hope I've outlined why people are so mad.


It really is no surprise to me that people are mad. I do not however agree with their reasoning (or mostly lack thereof).

Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.23 16:11:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Rex Liberium

Have fun stopping the MT-hordes that will eventually buy their way into your systems. Then there is no choice, only consequence if you stick to your 'I won't buy nothing never attitude'.

I for one wont grab ankles and accept. But to each his own.


This happened years ago. Regions were controlled by RMT'ing. It is a widely ignored issue, but basically has been going on since 2003. A lot of people apparently aren't aware of it. Now you know.

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.06.23 16:22:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Tobias Sjodin


As I've stated previously (regardless whether that document is authentic or not) developers consider a lot of alternatives. They always will. The reason why they keep documents such as that from their customers is that they are aware that ANY tidbit of information in such a document will be analyzed, re-analyzed and a lot of people will be able to interpret them in a negative light and rage on forums about it. It is a slippery slope to argue that because of possibility a, that would lead to possibility b, and c, and then they are selling real live children for ISK (pardon my sad attempt at humour).


So we should just wait until they got a step too far before expressing our concerns?

Quote:


I do not agree that there is a huge difference. Essentially it is the means to convert between real money and ISK. Aurum being more directly involved with vanity items, and PLEX being more directly involved with subscription.


When you sell a plex you are buying someone's time. You are pretty much paying them in time so when I sell a plex to buy some ships to go get blown up. I am paying for the time another player spent earning that isk in exchange for that time I'm paying their sub. With a plex to aurum conversion I am paying CCP directly to create an item in that instant. No player action no time involved just a direct payment for an item. The only reason it is at all confused is that a plex can now be used either to pay for an item or to pay for someone's sub.

Quote:


This is perhaps the only point I agree with you to certain extent. In the past some items in EVE have been player-produced, and SOME have been introduced by CCP (such as skillbooks, et cetera). Previously CCP has been going toward having less CCP-introduced items and going more toward a completely player controlled experience. This IS a step in the other direction. I agree. However, considering how RMT is affecting EVE, I think they had to take it (I can understand their reasoning).


The direct conversion of cash into items is still different even than RMT. RMT someone still had to go out and earn that isk through existing game mechanics at some point. With Aurum this simply isn't the case.

Quote:


As far as I know you can choose not to load CQ.


This is a temporary fix and you still lose functionality you had in the original hanger where you could see what ship you were in and right click on it to interact with it.

Quote:


1. Personally I appreciate that this is a launching platform and iteration for the rest of 'walking in stations', as for the lack of functionality, they've replaced a lot of dated codebase with new one and granted it has stuff that needs to be rebuilt into the new codebase, but to be honest I see only a few missing functions here.

I do agree that walking in stations is something the game needs my issue is that they spent several years building an avatar system that is frankly inferior to what SOE did with EQ 11 years ago.

Quote:

2. I have little sympathy toward people that can afford a computer, Internet, and "feel sad because they don't afford the latest hardware". Playing games like these are not a human right as you try and make it out to be.



Sympathy has nothing to do with it. These people stop playing because their machine can't run the game and they won't be earning isk to buy those plex anymore which reduces CCP's revenue.

Quote:

3. I strongly disagree. Business-wise this is sound.


Running off a bunch of your customers because of an unneeded hardware requirement increase is a bad business decision. Ignoring the mountains of feedback they got regarding the mandatory nature of the CQ was a bad business decision. Hell even deploying their new forums on a Friday was a bad frigging business decision.

They were bad decisions because there were much better and frankly easier to implement options which they willfully ignored.


Cataca
Posted - 2011.06.23 16:29:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Originally by: Rex Liberium

Have fun stopping the MT-hordes that will eventually buy their way into your systems. Then there is no choice, only consequence if you stick to your 'I won't buy nothing never attitude'.

I for one wont grab ankles and accept. But to each his own.


This happened years ago. Regions were controlled by RMT'ing. It is a widely ignored issue, but basically has been going on since 2003. A lot of people apparently aren't aware of it. Now you know.


You genuinely dont understand the difference between RMT and MT do you?

Saskie Castillo
Posted - 2011.06.23 16:34:00 - [55]
 

I agree 100%. The real issue here is that CCP have everything happening at once, too fast and with little to no player interaction.

MT has been in game since PLEXes, and yes, a lot of people has used it as a legitimate method of getting advantages over other players. I've helped them! I've been buying game time with ISK for years, but didn't feel bad about it at all. Tbh, I found the idea of ISK for PLEX and vice versa awesome.

The funny thing is that if all PLEXes were converted to AURUM, and you could buy game time with AURUM at the same exchange rates as today, nobody would complain about this currency. Of course, AURUM would still have to be tradable for ISK on the open market.

If PLEXes were converted to AURUM for Incarnia, and the vanity CQ shop in 6 months time, then I guess the ****storm would have been a lot less noticeable.

This expansion hasn't really changed the MT scene at all, the only change is that you can buy clothes, for ISK or real currency. You can do the same with mods, characters and ships anyway.

My concern is why it is all happening this fast and where it is going.

Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.23 16:38:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Skex Relbore

So we should just wait until they got a step too far before expressing our concerns?



When 95% of those concerns are uninformed complaints, insults, straight out false statements (or belief), attention-whoring, trolling and just genuine anti-change (whatever change that is)... yeah. Once the idea has reached a maturity enough that it is something CCP has thought through and then said "We are likely going to do this...", THEN sure we can have those 95% go on about it. But for every step, for every train of thought? No, not ever.

Quote:

When you sell a plex you are buying someone's time. You are pretty much paying them in time so when I sell a plex to buy some ships to go get blown up. I am paying for the time another player spent earning that isk in exchange for that time I'm paying their sub. With a plex to aurum conversion I am paying CCP directly to create an item in that instant. No player action no time involved just a direct payment for an item. The only reason it is at all confused is that a plex can now be used either to pay for an item or to pay for someone's sub.


Yes. Did you miss my response when you stated this earlier?

Quote:

The direct conversion of cash into items is still different even than RMT. RMT someone still had to go out and earn that isk through existing game mechanics at some point. With Aurum this simply isn't the case.


Your definitions of 'earn' may be wider than mine. But with all the botting, the RL-resources funneled into the game to gain in-game advantages for RL-cash (ie. the acquisition of tech moons). I think there is enough of grey matter to go along to say that it isn't clear cut enough to separate them.

Quote:

Sympathy has nothing to do with it. These people stop playing because their machine can't run the game and they won't be earning isk to buy those plex anymore which reduces CCP's revenue.


I think it has everything to do with it. Because there probably are people out there running Voodoo-cards or machines that were outdated 10 years ago. Certainly all these people cannot play EVE on their current machines either and are thus excluded and cannot buy those plex which reduces CCP's revenue. The line needs to be drawn somewhere.

Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.23 16:41:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Cataca

You genuinely dont understand the difference between RMT and MT do you?


I genuinely do. But as I stated in the OP the MT can be a way of using RMT'ing to your advantage, ie. use the customer base's needs (purchasing in-game items for $) to your advantage.

Rex Liberium
Posted - 2011.06.23 16:42:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Saskie Castillo
I agree 100%. The real issue here is that CCP have everything happening at once, too fast and with little to no player interaction.

MT has been in game since PLEXes, and yes, a lot of people has used it as a legitimate method of getting advantages over other players. I've helped them! I've been buying game time with ISK for years, but didn't feel bad about it at all. Tbh, I found the idea of ISK for PLEX and vice versa awesome.

The funny thing is that if all PLEXes were converted to AURUM, and you could buy game time with AURUM at the same exchange rates as today, nobody would complain about this currency. Of course, AURUM would still have to be tradable for ISK on the open market.

If PLEXes were converted to AURUM for Incarnia, and the vanity CQ shop in 6 months time, then I guess the ****storm would have been a lot less noticeable.

This expansion hasn't really changed the MT scene at all, the only change is that you can buy clothes, for ISK or real currency. You can do the same with mods, characters and ships anyway.

My concern is why it is all happening this fast and where it is going.


You feel to comprehend that by MT for mods and ships you cut out a large part/all of the eve-economy. Ships/mods from thin air is bad mmkay.

Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.23 16:43:00 - [59]
 

So $ > AURUM is bad?

but

$ > PLEX > ISK > AURUM is good?

*headscratch*

Cataca
Posted - 2011.06.23 16:51:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: Cataca on 23/06/2011 16:53:23
Originally by: Saskie Castillo
I agree 100%. The real issue here is that CCP have everything happening at once, too fast and with little to no player interaction.

MT has been in game since PLEXes, and yes, a lot of people has used it as a legitimate method of getting advantages over other players. I've helped them! I've been buying game time with ISK for years, but didn't feel bad about it at all. Tbh, I found the idea of ISK for PLEX and vice versa awesome.

The funny thing is that if all PLEXes were converted to AURUM, and you could buy game time with AURUM at the same exchange rates as today, nobody would complain about this currency. Of course, AURUM would still have to be tradable for ISK on the open market.

If PLEXes were converted to AURUM for Incarnia, and the vanity CQ shop in 6 months time, then I guess the ****storm would have been a lot less noticeable.

This expansion hasn't really changed the MT scene at all, the only change is that you can buy clothes, for ISK or real currency. You can do the same with mods, characters and ships anyway.

My concern is why it is all happening this fast and where it is going.


It makes my head split, really. Why is it so bloody hard to see the difference in Micro-Transactions and Real-Money-Transactions.

One gives you the ability to buy stuff ingame with real money, of the market controlled and driven by players. The other creates stuff out of thin air for real money.

RMTs are like giving other players the job to farm a certain amount of ISK, for which they will recieve money (both illegal and legal pathways) with this isk, the seller can only act within the player driven market so it goes right back into it. The only remification in this is that the one who spends money will save time (this is obviously a big deal when talking about alliances and farming the money for SC fleets) but its NOT introducing fresh isk to the game. (ignoring the way of aquisition here)

MT will create things out of thin air, for real life money, its an isk faucet. Depending on the items sold, it will give you game advatages not aviable to people not willing to spend cash to win the game. By completely ignoring the 3rd party (industrial, explorer miner or whatever) it will actually hurt them.



Pages: 1 [2] 3

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only