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voidvim
Minmatar
Genco
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2005.02.19 01:25:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: voidvim on 03/11/2007 14:21:16
ice->raw material->processed material->advanced material->construction component->tech II item

In the 'pos funtime' channel we are often asked what is a good moon for our pos and how much is a raw material worth. So I have written this forum post to help people decide what is best for their pos.

Moon profitably
What determines the worth of a raw material is the construction components it can be used to make. This feeds backwards down the construction chain determining what price people will want to trade their raw or processed material. For a pos to make you profit you must pick the right moon.

With small pos's (operating cost at about 46 million isk a month) introduced into the game what can be harvested at a profit has changed. Eight of the raw materials are not worth harvesting on their own (at current market value). Thus all raw material of rarity 16+ can be harvested by a small pos with one harvest and a silo at some profit. A moon with raw materials of 16 or 8 rarity, and also has 2 or 3 common gases (gray) that can be used with the metal could be profitable if they can be used together either as basic or advanced reactions that goes with the metal you harvest using a Medium pos.

Over view of advanced reactions
Advanced reactions use between 2 to 4 processed materials and thus use between 4 to 8 raw materials. The advanced reactions that use the most raw material produce the least amount of advanced material, for example the advanced reaction makes 'Tungsten Carbide', which uses 4 raw materials and makes 10000 units, while the advanced reaction 'Ferrogel' uses 8 raw materials and makes 400 units. As a general rule the rarer the raw material is, the more likely it is used in reactions that make the least advanced material. But the advanced material is used in small amounts in construction components.

Abundance overview
The raw materials on moons have Abundance from 1 to 3, each Abundance means you can harvest 100 units of the raw material a hour. Thus a moon with a Abundance 2 of Thulium will produce 200 units a hour when used with advanced moon harvesting array. At the time of writing any abundance over 1 is useless as Moon Harvesting Array 2 have not been put on the market and Moon Harvesting Array 3 are not a market item at all.

Max raw materials per moon overview.
The maximum amount of raw materials per moon seems to be 4 including abundance. SO a moon could have an abundance of 1 Caesium and 1 Thulium and abundance Silicates of 2 could be found or a moon with just Silicates abundance 3.

common gases (gray) - with a rarity of 2

Atmospheric Gases 377.00 uses 1
Evaporate Deposits 172.00 uses 3
Hydrocarbons 25.00 uses 1
Silicates 150.00 uses 3

These raw materials are ultra common and not worth mining (unless there are also profitable metals), but they are needed in bulk and make a good secondary raw material if you have two that go together. Half the uses for them is to make the other half carbides that go with the rarity 8 metals. Evaporate deposits and Silicates are unique in that they can be both used in two different basic reactions. So they are more flexible then Atmospheric Gases and Hydrocarbons and sell for a little more.

metals(yellow)

metals rarity of 8 - basic reaction made 1
Cobalt 355.00
Scandium 575.00
Titanium 280.00
Tungsten 330.00

All these metals have only one use, and that is for carbides. Each races construction components needs carbides so you could consider these four metals the building blocks of tech II. All these metals need a rarity 16 metal to make their one basic reaction. It is far better to have a rarity 16 than 8 as the 16 rarity has two other uses besides carbides.

Which go so:
Cobalt -> Cadmium
Scandium -> Vanadium
Titanium -> Chromium
Tungsten -> Platinum

voidvim
Minmatar
Genco
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2005.02.19 01:26:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: voidvim on 22/08/2007 23:57:59
metals with rarity of 16 - Basic reactions made 3

Cadmium 988.00
Chromium 2,100.00
Platinum 1,400.00
Vanadium 1,800.00

All these metals have 3 uses each, and one of the uses are for carbides (see above). These raw materials are used in large quantity's and sell in volume as they are used to make a lot of the different advanced materials and thus easy to trade and sell.

metals rarity of 32 - Basic reactions made 2 (besides Technetium which has 1)
Caesium 3,244.00
Hafnium 1,500.00
Mercury 3,500.00
Technetium 3,500.00

If you can sell these raw materials for 3000+ per unit they can be profitable but your better off trading to make basic reactions with which to boost your profits.

metals rarity of 64 - Basic reactions made 2 (besides Thulium which has 1)
Dysprosium 10,000.00
Neodymium 3,700.00
Promethium 9,750.00
Thulium 1,850.00

These are used to make the advanced reactions that need 6 or 8 raw materials and can easily be sold to sell orders for around 6k, just harvesting one of these should make a pos profitable.


Dawnstar
Gallente
Kiroshi Group
Exiliar Syndicate
Posted - 2005.02.19 02:18:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: voidvim

P.S.
If some body wants to do the same for processed material it would help the pos community a lot as well.


I suspect that was aimed at me.Rolling Eyes

As I'm at work right now, I'll see if I can gather some of the data I have up into some sort of presentable form over the weekend and post it up here.

Off the top of my head though, I can tell you that processed materials have been falling into 3 general categories as far as how many people are producing them and how plentiful (=cheap) they are on the market. I do know the common ones by heart:

Common
Carbon Polymers
Ceramic Powder
Silicon Diborite
Sulfuric Acid

I'll have to look at my data to sort the uncommon and rare ones. I'll add the data to this thread sometime this weekend, time permitting.

Novo DuPont
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2005.02.19 09:54:00 - [4]
 

Here is my question:

In deep 0.0 space are there moons with

1) More than 4 different types of moon elements

2) Moons with more than 1 type of metal in them??


Ayms
Obsidian Asylum
Pure.
Posted - 2005.02.19 12:13:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Novo DuPont
Here is my question:

In deep 0.0 space are there moons with

1) More than 4 different types of moon elements

2) Moons with more than 1 type of metal in them??




1) No

2) Yes

Tas Devil
JUDGE DREAD Inc.
Forces of Freedom
Posted - 2005.02.19 12:23:00 - [6]
 

Novo how about going to 0.0 and doing some scanning yourself ? or is this another arm chair POS management exercise ?Wink

Novo DuPont
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2005.02.19 12:37:00 - [7]
 

Tas

I take it all you can do is insult peeps.For your information I have been there just asking if anyone seen anything different than what I have seen.

so stop being a a** and either be helpful or stfu.

voidvim
Minmatar
Genco
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2005.02.19 21:19:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: voidvim on 03/11/2007 15:03:03
Originally by: Dawnstar
I suspect that was aimed at me.Rolling Eyes


Nope not at all, you have been helpful in the past but I was thinking of nobody in particular.

SC0RPY
Top Technology
Posted - 2005.03.14 16:49:00 - [9]
 

Ok i have a question. I know 3 moons in safe region, but cant decide wich one to mine. So first moon is with Cadmium(1) / Silicates(1) / Tungsten (2). Second is with Atmospheric Gases (1) / Technetium (1) / Tungsten (1). Third is with Hydrocarbons (1) / Silicates (1) / Tungsten (2). Can u help me to choose ?

voidvim
Minmatar
Genco
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2005.03.15 11:04:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: SC0RPY
Ok i have a question. I know 3 moons in safe region, but cant decide wich one to mine. So first moon is with Cadmium(1) / Silicates(1) / Tungsten (2). Second is with Atmospheric Gases (1) / Technetium (1) / Tungsten (1). Third is with Hydrocarbons (1) / Silicates (1) / Tungsten (2). Can u help me to choose ?


moon 1 = good

moon 2 = good

moon 3 = no so good

try to fining buy or trading partners for the raw materials so you can make processed materials befor you deside.

Nanaman
Posted - 2005.03.16 20:25:00 - [11]
 

I posed this question to those that are much more knowledgable than I. I have dabbled in the lower end materials and now I am looking to get into the big league. I hope to be in a supply of Promethium soon. I plan to react it to create Hyperflurite or Prometium, most likely the latter.

What is a reasonable price to sell this for?

I may also have access to some Thulium. If I react that, what is a reasonable price to charge for those? Are all the "rares" priced about the same?

Thanks for your input.

Dianabolic
Reikoku
Posted - 2005.03.16 21:24:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Nanaman
I posed this question to those that are much more knowledgable than I. I have dabbled in the lower end materials and now I am looking to get into the big league. I hope to be in a supply of Promethium soon. I plan to react it to create Hyperflurite or Prometium, most likely the latter.

What is a reasonable price to sell this for?

I may also have access to some Thulium. If I react that, what is a reasonable price to charge for those? Are all the "rares" priced about the same?

Thanks for your input.


Go to the market in yulai for market rates.

Go to yoru spreadsheet for building costs.

voidvim
Minmatar
Genco
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2005.03.17 01:50:00 - [13]
 

if one is going to use yulai make sure you look at the volume of sale which is a far better indicator of what people consider a materials value.

Treebeard dk
M. Corp
Mercenary Coalition
Posted - 2005.03.23 10:31:00 - [14]
 

This one certainly deserves a bump.

Vicker Lahn'se
Minmatar
STRAG3S
Posted - 2005.04.05 19:46:00 - [15]
 

I think it deserves a sticky.

Fillmeup
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2005.04.06 03:40:00 - [16]
 

Ok, we currently run 6 POS's in our corp, so we have a good idea of what we are doing.

Effectively, we found that (like life) the rarer materials are the most valuable and most in demand. If you check the market for low-end moon materials you will see they are available in abundance at fire -sale prices.

We went for Promethium, Dysprosium, Thulium, Neodymium, platinum harvesting + some lower materials. These we use to produce Fermionic Condensates and to a lesser extent Ferogel. We make simple reactions at each station that is harvesting, and have two stations dedicated to full scale complex reaction production. (they mine also, thank-you Caldari towers!)

However, while FC used to be worth $60k+ per unit, it is now difficult to sell these, especially if you produce around 16-20,000 units per week. Also, they are not used in high numbers right now (demand is low due to f*cking agent drops of components), so we have been stockpiling them rather than deflating the market price even further. This agent drop thing will be sorted in the coming patch (hopefully).

My biggest piece of advise would be to form contracts with other POS operators looking to move up the production chain. We now produce all types of reactors for ship building in abundance, and have found the profitability / salability much increased. The key here is SPREAD THE RISK.

On the other hand, our stations were profitible just mining and selling Dysprosium / Promethium (selling these materials paid for the fuel costs for 5 stations in total) - this could be the best avenue for corps not wishing to have large 0.0 or POS infrastructure.

Just my two cents worth.

Malarkey
Minmatar
Twisted Creations
Posted - 2005.04.07 11:16:00 - [17]
 

Almost all mentions of profitability above are based on the assumption that you are operating in Empire.

At present, it is my opinion, that moon mining, alone, is not profitable in 0.0, especially when you take into account haulage, gankage losses, poor ice yields (to change) and the profits to be made in alternative pursuits. For example, it would be more efficient to mine rares or farm rats and use the isk to buy agent drop products, re-process and re-combine to get your desired end-product.

On the other hand, POS in 0.0 have other uses than simply moon mining.

Rare moon materials are not significantly more common in 0.0 than Empire, in my experience, but please correct this. I have only surveyed about 20 systems in one region. Distribution may vary.

Providing this info in case there were any budding POS owners considering venturing out into the wild frontiers and expecting to make a profit by doing so.

Dloan
Posted - 2005.04.07 12:43:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Malarkey

At present, it is my opinion, that moon mining, alone, is not profitable in 0.0, especially when you take into account haulage, gankage losses, poor ice yields (to change) and the profits to be made in alternative pursuits.


Mine too, unless you can find a rare moon.

Quote:
On the other hand, POS in 0.0 have other uses than simply moon mining.


True, but those other uses are rather limited at the moment. If you could fit a decent refinery onto your POS as well, that would currently balance out the inconveniences of 0.0 positioning. Until POSes can do building and research, they really don't add much to 0.0 at all except a nice safespot and a lot of extra hassel.

Quote:
Rare moon materials are not significantly more common in 0.0 than Empire, in my experience, but please correct this. I have only surveyed about 20 systems in one region. Distribution may vary.


I've scanned about 20 0.0 systems as well and taken a sample to calculate a rough breakdown of materials. I found :-

85% tier 1
10% tier 2
3.5% tier 3
1% tier 4
0.5% tier 5

It is also my feeling that this distribution does not alter significantly in Empire, although I haven't scanned many Empire moons. Given that approx 50% of moons contain something, that means the chance of finding a rare moon should be about 1:400. I've scanned a lot more than that though and have yet to find one though so maybe 0.5% is a bit optimistic. There are also distinct regional differences depending on race ship componant requirements. In space near Caldari regions I found lots of tungsten, whilst in Gallente space you will find lots of titanium.

Sillente NiKunni
Amarr
Posted - 2005.04.07 14:12:00 - [19]
 

Dloan i'm aggre with you with the location the location of rare.

I've found PLENTY of moon with Neodynium (rarest normally), 2 Thulium, 1 Promethium but no Dysprothium.I'm in Gallente Space so i think in Amarr space you will find different repartition.

Can you give me the rarest you have found MORE in you'r space and who claim it (amar, calda ...)

Aliksr
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2005.04.08 01:38:00 - [20]
 

this is a fantastic thread. i have it bookmarked and find myself checking it often. it should at least get a link in the links thread if not a sticky

Beatlebug
Posted - 2005.04.08 07:00:00 - [21]
 

In regards to 0.0 POS, i think many of you have forgotten the reason for putting a POS deep in 0.0 Its not the moon materials(though its a benefit), its the astriods. The ability to run a POS in a system with mercoxit, bistot, or arkonor AND refine it there, will significantly reduce the hauling. Refining the ore to minerals will make each trip worth thousands of times more ISK than hauling the ore itself. And of course a safe place to store(and maybe later build) ammo and ships in 0.0 is almost invaluable. Lets keep a broad scope of the uses of a POS.

Dloan
Posted - 2005.04.08 07:35:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Sillente NiKunni

Can you give me the rarest you have found MORE in you'r space and who claim it (amar, calda ...)


The rarest I've found most of is technetium in areas associated with Caldari space. Haven't found any ceasium or mercury yet and only 1 halfnium. Maybe they screwed up the 0.0 spawn tables with Empire :P.

voidvim
Minmatar
Genco
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2005.04.16 11:14:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Beatlebug
In regards to 0.0 POS, i think many of you have forgotten the reason for putting a POS deep in 0.0 Its not the moon materials(though its a benefit), its the astriods. The ability to run a POS in a system with mercoxit, bistot, or arkonor AND refine it there, will significantly reduce the hauling. Refining the ore to minerals will make each trip worth thousands of times more ISK than hauling the ore itself. And of course a safe place to store(and maybe later build) ammo and ships in 0.0 is almost invaluable. Lets keep a broad scope of the uses of a POS.


quite true but I did write this artical purely for some one who wants to know which raw moon material are worth harvesting.

with the changes to agent drops the usefulness of my study might change

Karazaan
Rakyra
Posted - 2005.04.16 14:41:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: voidvim
Originally by: Beatlebug
In regards to 0.0 POS, i think many of you have forgotten the reason for putting a POS deep in 0.0 Its not the moon materials(though its a benefit), its the astriods. The ability to run a POS in a system with mercoxit, bistot, or arkonor AND refine it there, will significantly reduce the hauling. Refining the ore to minerals will make each trip worth thousands of times more ISK than hauling the ore itself. And of course a safe place to store(and maybe later build) ammo and ships in 0.0 is almost invaluable. Lets keep a broad scope of the uses of a POS.


quite true but I did write this artical purely for some one who wants to know which raw moon material are worth harvesting.

with the changes to agent drops the usefulness of my study might change

They are ALL worth harvesting, we could argue all the next year about the usefullness of... let's say, Scandium. Would be like saying the only thing you can mine to make a profit is megacyte and mining mexallon is worthless...

Do your math and you will see you need more of the less rare to sustain the economy. Strangely enough, what is the best standard mineral now? Tritanium! Cool

Why would ccp give useless moons to anyone? Ever wondered why Ark take so much space in the cargo of the ship compare to velspar?

Yet, don't do stupid thing like just moon mine Evaporite deposites and hope to seel that for 2000 isk each...

Beware the buy-order, they might kill you!

Dloan
Posted - 2005.04.16 16:08:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Dloan on 16/04/2005 16:10:07
Originally by: Karazaan
Would be like saying the only thing you can mine to make a profit is megacyte and mining mexallon is worthless...


A comparison which ignores the reality of the situation. Miners don't need to supply their ships with a few million isk in fuel and parts every day. They have no ongoing costs that their mining operations need to cover so they can keep on mining. They would say that mining mexallon is worthless if it costs them more to mine it, in time and money, than they can get for selling.

Karazaan
Rakyra
Posted - 2005.04.16 16:25:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Dloan
Edited by: Dloan on 16/04/2005 16:10:07
Originally by: Karazaan
Would be like saying the only thing you can mine to make a profit is megacyte and mining mexallon is worthless...


A comparison which ignores the reality of the situation. Miners don't need to supply their ships with a few million isk in fuel and parts every day. They have no ongoing costs that their mining operations need to cover so they can keep on mining. They would say that mining mexallon is worthless if it costs them more to mine it, in time and money, than they can get for selling.

Ok, maybe the comparison was far fetched, BUT, Fermionite Condensate is not use in everything, and everything will need to get built...

voidvim
Minmatar
Genco
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2005.04.19 18:12:00 - [27]
 

um...

this forum post is about what the current market prices are (or were) and thus how to judge if a moon is worth the investment of isk and time purely based on the raw materials it has.

all moon materials are need, just some are far more profitable to mine then other taking into account the operating costs of running a pos.

Cummilla
Posted - 2005.04.19 23:01:00 - [28]
 

With the recent skyrocketing in the value of common ores, one might think that POS operation in 0,0 with the ready availability of ores which refine into proportionately large amounts of these commons might well lead to a more attractive economic stance of 0,0 POS's that are situated to just provide a refining depot function for miners in 0,0.

Anyone comment about that?

Also, finally, a question: I noticed in Eve-I that there were two different kinds of refining arrays: regular ones and so-called "advanced" with much better yields. Are the Advanced refining arrays actually available ingame? I'm at work otherwise I would just check market and certainly upon getting home from work I plan to check things out in this regard.

Sin Fae
Operational Detachment-Alpha
Posted - 2005.04.20 03:56:00 - [29]
 

Intensive refining arrays are available in game, 63 mil in kador. I'd assume you'd need a large control tower to power it tho.
75% base yield

just out with the patch are the small towers, which could make refining pos's a possibility...time will tell. Small tower goes for about 20 mil


Sin Fae
Operational Detachment-Alpha
Posted - 2005.04.20 04:25:00 - [30]
 

Ahh a comment for Cummila's post about 0.0 refining outposts:

Until POS's can have factories, research, cloning, etc. I don't think there is enough demand in 0.0 for mins to justify a pos refining outpost in 0.0. Currently, you can just refine at a capturable station, and haul to empire, (where the factories are, and demand for 0.0 mins is high)

Lower end mins catch a slightly better price in 0.0, but not to the point of setting up, and powering a POS, not to mention you would need a BS miner, (less production) or a barge with escort (equal production in 0.0 but more risk and more a pain)





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