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blankseplocked A sudden realization. Open letter to CCP.
 
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ThirdEyeBlenny
Posted - 2011.06.23 15:15:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Malias Yakusto
ArrowQuitting because you're a peon and can't afford fake clothes or rock out the monicle?
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Please. Either get back to the minimum wage veldspar mining or GTFO.


QFT!


Soden Rah
Gallente
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2011.06.23 15:18:00 - [62]
 

to the OP... Well put.

To CCP, Just before the expansion I paid for my next 3 months of subscription...
They will be the last 3 months if you do not fix this IN the next three months.


And to be clear, fixed means we have the old hanger view back,
we have separate graphics settings for CQ and space,
CQ/Incarna is rp/immersion compliant and has the pod in its own room,
MT is dead and buried,
And you communicate well and often with your customers/testers, and not only listen and respond to but act on feedback.

MT will not get you any more of my money... It will get you none of my money.

Rattus Norwegius
Posted - 2011.06.23 15:21:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Mishikaii
You know, today and yesterday hit me hard. It is easy to say if you don't like it quit, but the truth is that we are all paying customers with opinions about the product we pay for.

In the end, even the most bitter of vets is here because on some level, he cares.

Since I picked up this game in November, I have met awesome people, not so awesome people, explored space, amassed vast isk reserves, and perhaps most importantly, had a good time.

I looked forward to new ships, new expansions, new adventures. I usually prefer games with a plot, but for whatever reason I found the sandbox interesting. People built and destroyed, made friends and enemies, and cared with an intensity seldom seen. I had fun with Incursions, and played with the Noctis.

And when people said the sky was falling, I said, "No, it isn't". I was warned that in time I would see how things were, and become jaded. I didn't believe it. I looked forward to Dust, and to whatever you were doing. I was, in essence, your fan.

Yesterday opened my eyes. You released a unfinished expansion that is barely functional. One that is actively damaging some people's systems, and which prevents some other people from playing the game altogether. An expansion that offers no content, and which even on my 6870 at max settings, looks terrible.

The reason for this rush? a poorly priced and conceived microtransaction store that has made you the laughing stock of the business, the media, and most importantly, your customers.

But really, if that was it, it would be no big deal.

It then came to light that you have been lying through your teeth all this time. That you have been removing functionality (like accessories that existed in the previous char creator, ship fittings, etc), to sell them later. That when you say "Vanity only" you forget to add "for now".

Yesterday, your sales coordinator showed the blatant disregard and contempt you have for your customers by his comments on chat, but perhaps most importantly, your disconnection from reality.

But all through this, through the broken expansion with one of four "stations" in which we can play by ourselves and stare at such relevant items as 10 + boots and monocles, I had faith.

Faith that this was a miscommunication.

Faith that there was an error somewhere.

Faith that at some point, CCP BackTracks would show up and tell us that it was incorrect. Or perhaps even that you had changed your mind.

Faith that the document posted and verified as authentic by several sources was a joke.

I suspect others shared that faith. Others with longer stories, and customer ralationships with you.

But I was suddenly struck by a realization.

There is no error, is there? There will be no post telling us that there was a mistake at any point. You will not say that it meant nothing, that you will leave that other woman, and that everything will be okay and we will be happy.

I realize the meaning of your silence.

It is us, who are going. It is us, you don't care about. What post comes will state that yes, you are going for microtransactions, no, there is no mistake, and no, there will be no change.

And it's a damn shame. I actually liked your game. We had some good times.

Do you really think things will work out for you?

Do you think you will replace your customer base and make more money off a magical other one?

Honestly?

Seriously?

Look around at all the failed MMO's and Console games. You got lucky, but most don't. Dust is doomed, and games based off the White Wolf franchise are seldom successful. And then what?

In your hubris and arrogance, you are sacrificing us. Keep that in mind.

I'm a newer player. One that came as a result of your marketing. One that liked your game and spent on it. One that is thinking of going.

Think about that.




This. +1000

rosinERsundt
Posted - 2011.06.23 15:27:00 - [64]
 

Perfect thread, +1

DeBingJos
Minmatar
Goat Holdings
Posted - 2011.06.23 15:35:00 - [65]
 

+1 to OP

KFenn
Percussive Diplomacy
Posted - 2011.06.23 15:38:00 - [66]
 

+1.

Valeroth Kyarmentari
Posted - 2011.06.23 15:40:00 - [67]
 

I feel much the same way as a the original poster. I started out defending CCP, but like the original poster have started to lose faith. I think I'll probably hang around a tiny bit longer burning through some of my ISK to use PLEX to extend. Logging on here and there to train skills... We'll see where things are in a month.

May Ke
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2011.06.23 15:42:00 - [68]
 

+1

and

/signed

Ospie
Ransom and Kill
Core.Impulse
Posted - 2011.06.23 15:48:00 - [69]
 

+1

I'm still hoping CCP will get its act together. I've always supported CCP & Eve, been proud of both, the last few months have had me feeling less so. Whilst I like CQ myself I truly dislike the prices that were set in the store, the bulletin just made me feel sad. This isn't the CCP I knew.

Reed Tiburon
Caldari
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
Posted - 2011.06.23 15:51:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Holdas
Originally by: Mishikaii
You know, today and yesterday hit me hard. It is easy to say if you don't like it quit, but the truth is that we are all paying customers with opinions about the product we pay for.

In the end, even the most bitter of vets is here because on some level, he cares.

Since I picked up this game in November, I have met awesome people, not so awesome people, explored space, amassed vast isk reserves, and perhaps most importantly, had a good time.

I looked forward to new ships, new expansions, new adventures. I usually prefer games with a plot, but for whatever reason I found the sandbox interesting. People built and destroyed, made friends and enemies, and cared with an intensity seldom seen. I had fun with Incursions, and played with the Noctis.

And when people said the sky was falling, I said, "No, it isn't". I was warned that in time I would see how things were, and become jaded. I didn't believe it. I looked forward to Dust, and to whatever you were doing. I was, in essence, your fan.

Yesterday opened my eyes. You released a unfinished expansion that is barely functional. One that is actively damaging some people's systems, and which prevents some other people from playing the game altogether. An expansion that offers no content, and which even on my 6870 at max settings, looks terrible.

The reason for this rush? a poorly priced and conceived microtransaction store that has made you the laughing stock of the business, the media, and most importantly, your customers.

But really, if that was it, it would be no big deal.

It then came to light that you have been lying through your teeth all this time. That you have been removing functionality (like accessories that existed in the previous char creator, ship fittings, etc), to sell them later. That when you say "Vanity only" you forget to add "for now".

Yesterday, your sales coordinator showed the blatant disregard and contempt you have for your customers by his comments on chat, but perhaps most importantly, your disconnection from reality.

But all through this, through the broken expansion with one of four "stations" in which we can play by ourselves and stare at such relevant items as 10 + boots and monocles, I had faith.

Faith that this was a miscommunication.

Faith that there was an error somewhere.

Faith that at some point, CCP BackTracks would show up and tell us that it was incorrect. Or perhaps even that you had changed your mind.

Faith that the document posted and verified as authentic by several sources was a joke.

I suspect others shared that faith. Others with longer stories, and customer ralationships with you.

But I was suddenly struck by a realization.

There is no error, is there? There will be no post telling us that there was a mistake at any point. You will not say that it meant nothing, that you will leave that other woman, and that everything will be okay and we will be happy.

I realize the meaning of your silence.

It is us, who are going. It is us, you don't care about. What post comes will state that yes, you are going for microtransactions, no, there is no mistake, and no, there will be no change.

And it's a damn shame. I actually liked your game. We had some good times.

Do you really think things will work out for you?

Do you think you will replace your customer base and make more money off a magical other one?

Honestly?

Seriously?

Look around at all the failed MMO's and Console games. You got lucky, but most don't. Dust is doomed, and games based off the White Wolf franchise are seldom successful. And then what?

In your hubris and arrogance, you are sacrificing us. Keep that in mind.

I'm a newer player. One that came as a result of your marketing. One that liked your game and spent on it. One that is thinking of going.

Think about that.




Joe Forum
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.23 16:10:00 - [71]
 

I don't know what it was, but as I read though the OPs post I could hear it in the voice of Eric Cartman.

Do Matt and Trey play Eve?

Imagonnawhupya
Malicous Mischief
Posted - 2011.06.23 16:25:00 - [72]
 

bumpity bump bump

Velios
M. Corp
M. PIRE
Posted - 2011.06.23 16:41:00 - [73]
 

So much emotion in this thread lol...

Seriously guys, take a reality check, CCP, like any other business that wants to be successful looks for ways to make money. MT is OPTIONAL and if somebody wants to spend RL cash on a space ship that might get blown up 10 minutes later then good luck to them :) It will all settle down eventually..

Remember you aren't being forced to buy this stuff - EVE itself hasn't fundamentally changed (and I hope that it doesn't) so for the sake of your health, and probably the happiness of those in your immediate vicinity, relax :)

I've been playing eve for 8 years, and have just about as much invested in EVE as anyone else I know, and the incarna patch really hasn't made me feel the need to get up on a soap box like the impassioned fool that wrote the op.

T0KER
Posted - 2011.06.23 16:42:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Mishikaii
You know, today and yesterday hit me hard. It is easy to say if you don't like it quit, but the truth is that we are all paying customers with opinions about the product we pay for.

In the end, even the most bitter of vets is here because on some level, he cares.

Since I picked up this game in November, I have met awesome people, not so awesome people, explored space, amassed vast isk reserves, and perhaps most importantly, had a good time.

I looked forward to new ships, new expansions, new adventures. I usually prefer games with a plot, but for whatever reason I found the sandbox interesting. People built and destroyed, made friends and enemies, and cared with an intensity seldom seen. I had fun with Incursions, and played with the Noctis.

And when people said the sky was falling, I said, "No, it isn't". I was warned that in time I would see how things were, and become jaded. I didn't believe it. I looked forward to Dust, and to whatever you were doing. I was, in essence, your fan.

Yesterday opened my eyes. You released a unfinished expansion that is barely functional. One that is actively damaging some people's systems, and which prevents some other people from playing the game altogether. An expansion that offers no content, and which even on my 6870 at max settings, looks terrible.

The reason for this rush? a poorly priced and conceived microtransaction store that has made you the laughing stock of the business, the media, and most importantly, your customers.

But really, if that was it, it would be no big deal.

It then came to light that you have been lying through your teeth all this time. That you have been removing functionality (like accessories that existed in the previous char creator, ship fittings, etc), to sell them later. That when you say "Vanity only" you forget to add "for now".

Yesterday, your sales coordinator showed the blatant disregard and contempt you have for your customers by his comments on chat, but perhaps most importantly, your disconnection from reality.

But all through this, through the broken expansion with one of four "stations" in which we can play by ourselves and stare at such relevant items as 10 + boots and monocles, I had faith.

Faith that this was a miscommunication.

Faith that there was an error somewhere.

Faith that at some point, CCP BackTracks would show up and tell us that it was incorrect. Or perhaps even that you had changed your mind.

Faith that the document posted and verified as authentic by several sources was a joke.

I suspect others shared that faith. Others with longer stories, and customer ralationships with you.

But I was suddenly struck by a realization.

There is no error, is there? There will be no post telling us that there was a mistake at any point. You will not say that it meant nothing, that you will leave that other woman, and that everything will be okay and we will be happy.

I realize the meaning of your silence.

It is us, who are going. It is us, you don't care about. What post comes will state that yes, you are going for microtransactions, no, there is no mistake, and no, there will be no change.

And it's a damn shame. I actually liked your game. We had some good times.

Do you really think things will work out for you?

Do you think you will replace your customer base and make more money off a magical other one?

Honestly?

Seriously?

Look around at all the failed MMO's and Console games. You got lucky, but most don't. Dust is doomed, and games based off the White Wolf franchise are seldom successful. And then what?

In your hubris and arrogance, you are sacrificing us. Keep that in mind.

I'm a newer player. One that came as a result of your marketing. One that liked your game and spent on it. One that is thinking of going.

Think about that.




+1

Malice Redeemer
Posted - 2011.06.23 16:42:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Soden Rah
to the OP... Well put.

To CCP, Just before the expansion I paid for my next 3 months of subscription...
They will be the last 3 months if you do not fix this IN the next three months.


And to be clear, fixed means we have the old hanger view back,
we have separate graphics settings for CQ and space,
CQ/Incarna is rp/immersion compliant and has the pod in its own room,
MT is dead and buried,
And you communicate well and often with your customers/testers, and not only listen and respond to but act on feedback.

MT will not get you any more of my money... It will get you none of my money.


This, but less time, one account lapses in 2 days, the other in 3 weeks. I'm not paying a dime more till they add the old hanger veiw back in and denounce for all time MT for non vanity items

LIOZTH
Caldari
Divide By Zero
Dark Phoenix Rising.
Posted - 2011.06.23 16:47:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Zverofaust
Yet another idiot with a ridiculous sense of entitlement thinking that you alone hold the secrets to Eve's alleged failure, and then feeling the unstoppable urge to splerg your mindless drivel onto the forums in a new thread instead of one of the dozens that already exist on this exact topic.

What I'd like to know is where are the GMs and forum mods who are supposed to keep these forums clear of mindless spam and reposts?



Respectfully disagree with your post Zverofaust - I think the OP makes a lot of great points, +1 for the OP as well.

Dakkan
Posted - 2011.06.23 16:54:00 - [77]
 

Any game that allows players to swipe a credit card and gain an advantage is no longer a game worth playing. It's no longer a matter of skill, teamwork, or logistics but a game of "who has spent more money". CCP will be indifferent as they'll have made a profit and have no stake in the outcome of in-game affairs.

People say you don't have to spend real money on PLEX since it can be bought with ISK. They're neglecting the fact that PLEX are only created through real-money purchases; someone has to swipe their credit card for there to be PLEX to purchase. Even if everyone in EVE was a billionaire, there would be no PLEX for players to own t-shirts or monocles unless someone swipes their credit card. We're pigeon-holed as a player-base into HAVING to give CCP money if the items are to exist in-game whatsoever. For those who are billionaires using ISK to pay for their 5 accounts, if everyone's buying up PLEX to get t-shirts and monocles it will create a shortage. This will either inflate the in-game price of PLEX or force you to swipe your credit card to pay for your account. Either way the only winner is CCP.

If we continue on the current route and ships, faction items, etc become purchasable through micro-transactions, it will throw off the balance of the entire universe. It takes time to gather ISK to purchase those PLEX. Meanwhile, if your opponent has enough balance on his credit card he'll have a new ship in 5 minutes. Imagine your alliance is at war with another alliance which is headed by some trust fund baby whose daddy owns a multi-billion dollar enterprise. Your corporation spends a few weeks gathering minerals and ISK to produce ships. Strip miners take 3 minute to cycle. Pirates take time to pop. A credit card takes maybe 30 seconds to process to save hours/days of work. Whoever has the most disposable income wins.

Micro-transactions costing $1-5 to gain cosmetic or novelty items are fine. $70 monocles and credit-card-swiped faction battleships are a sign of CCP's intentions. You no longer their valued subscriber whom they want to provide a fantastic science fiction experience to. You're a cow who they want milk for profit while they stroke your hand and tell you the Noble Store is optional. If you're one of those who flame the naysayers and don't have the foresight to find this unacceptable: you are one of the cows.

Bischopt
Posted - 2011.06.23 16:56:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Mishikaii
The reason for this rush? a poorly priced and conceived microtransaction store that has made you the laughing stock of the business, the media, and most importantly, your customers.


Exactly. This is the only reason I have such a huge problem with incarna myself. Feels to me like the whole expansion was made for the wrong reasons and the outcome is poor.

Chip Flux
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2011.06.23 19:23:00 - [79]
 

I am with those that dislike what is happening to eve.
buying isk makes isk worthless, it is hard work and pride that puts worth on isk.
But isk was just the start of it wasnt it

FU22
The 8th Order
Posted - 2011.06.23 19:33:00 - [80]
 

Downloaded patch, logged in, ran (or slowly walked) in a few circles for a while, turned it off

Then had the sudden realisation that not only can I not double click the background to open my current ships cargohold anymore, or that I cannot right click the ship in the background to do usual stuff there, or the fact I cannot easily see what ship I'm in with the new Incarna thing on but the absolute disgusting thing that has made me lose all faith in CCP was

I can no longer spin my ship anymore...Screw you CCP

Zoroa Aulx-Gao
Koa Mai Hoku
Destiny Corrupted.
Posted - 2011.06.23 19:36:00 - [81]
 

Yep, EVE is pretty much over for me after reading that leak and the dev's opinions of players.

Cancelled.

Byeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. Very Happy

Yo Boss
Posted - 2011.06.23 19:39:00 - [82]
 

Your post is a little dramatic, but I agree. +1

Cedric deBouilard
Gallente
PonyWaffe
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.06.23 19:39:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Mishikaii


...Honest, sincere stuff...




Well said sir.

Actually, that's how SWG ruined itself and went from 400k subscribers to 50k in 1 year.

Ein Spiegel
Minmatar
Fly-by-Night Industries LLC PTY LTD
Posted - 2011.06.23 19:45:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Zverofaust
Yet another idiot with a ridiculous sense of entitlement thinking that you alone hold the secrets to Eve's alleged failure, and then feeling the unstoppable urge to splerg your mindless drivel onto the forums in a new thread instead of one of the dozens that already exist on this exact topic.

What I'd like to know is where are the GMs and forum mods who are supposed to keep these forums clear of mindless spam and reposts?


If past experience is any guide, they're either silent by order, hiding, or possibly being sacked for not making this uproar go away and making us like what we see.

Rolling Eyes Poor Tiggs.

Tutskii
Posted - 2011.06.23 20:01:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Ein Spiegel
Originally by: Zverofaust
Yet another idiot with a ridiculous sense of entitlement thinking that you alone hold the secrets to Eve's alleged failure, and then feeling the unstoppable urge to splerg your mindless drivel onto the forums in a new thread instead of one of the dozens that already exist on this exact topic.

What I'd like to know is where are the GMs and forum mods who are supposed to keep these forums clear of mindless spam and reposts?


If past experience is any guide, they're either silent by order, hiding, or possibly being sacked for not making this uproar go away and making us like what we see.

Rolling Eyes Poor Tiggs.


Quote:
"@ccphammer: I went over my bandwidth limit at home so I can't download the patch and buy a $70 monocle"


There is still common sense at CCP. Perhaps just not at the top.

Atreus Venom
Gallente
New Eden Hitmen
Posted - 2011.06.23 21:00:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Zverofaust
Yet another idiot with a ridiculous sense of entitlement thinking that you alone hold the secrets to Eve's alleged failure, and then feeling the unstoppable urge to splerg your mindless drivel onto the forums in a new thread instead of one of the dozens that already exist on this exact topic.

What I'd like to know is where are the GMs and forum mods who are supposed to keep these forums clear of mindless spam and reposts?


if it were mindless... it would still be better than anything you say nice gay conan obrian in your pic

Lelob
Posted - 2011.06.23 21:05:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Ospie
+1

I'm still hoping CCP will get its act together. I've always supported CCP & Eve, been proud of both, the last few months have had me feeling less so. Whilst I like CQ myself I truly dislike the prices that were set in the store, the bulletin just made me feel sad. This isn't the CCP I knew.


Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

Thank you OP, for a truly heartfelt letter. It makes me sad that I agree with it so completely.

Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.06.23 21:29:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Zverofaust
Yet another idiot with a ridiculous sense of entitlement thinking that you alone hold the secrets to Eve's alleged failure, and then feeling the unstoppable urge to splerg your mindless drivel onto the forums in a new thread instead of one of the dozens that already exist on this exact topic.
What I'd like to know is where are the GMs and forum mods who are supposed to keep these forums clear of mindless spam and reposts?


Originally by: Zverofaust

Oh is he worried? The poor wittle baby. Are you worried too? Do you need CCP to come and put an arm around your shoulder and whisper gently into your ear to make you feel better?

The worst part is people like you actually believe you're on the front lines of some romanticized revolt fighting the unjustices of a totalitarian regime, when really you're a bunch of whiny children getting butthurt and soiled over a video game and doing little more than threatening to hold your breath until you pass out because mommy won't let you have chocolate ice cream for dinner.


Originally by: Zverofaust
Originally by: Tutskii


The forum would indicate that its hardly an isolated feeling. But hey, internt tough guy'ng e'rry day amirite.


100 people going ape**** on the forums out of 400,000 accounts is actually quite a small percentage. The Westboro Baptists get quite a lot of attention and coverage but they're still just a tiny handful of people making a lot of noise.

Also loltoughguy? You sound like you're pre-emptively trying to counter-troll me with completely irrelevant comebacks to hide the fact you don't know what you're talking about.


I want a +rep button.

This is some quality posting right here.

Chakirari
Posted - 2011.06.24 17:11:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Mishikaii
You know, today and yesterday hit me hard. It is easy to say if you don't like it quit, but the truth is that we are all paying customers with opinions about the product we pay for.

In the end, even the most bitter of vets is here because on some level, he cares.

Since I picked up this game in November, I have met awesome people, not so awesome people, explored space, amassed vast isk reserves, and perhaps most importantly, had a good time.

I looked forward to new ships, new expansions, new adventures. I usually prefer games with a plot, but for whatever reason I found the sandbox interesting. People built and destroyed, made friends and enemies, and cared with an intensity seldom seen. I had fun with Incursions, and played with the Noctis.

And when people said the sky was falling, I said, "No, it isn't". I was warned that in time I would see how things were, and become jaded. I didn't believe it. I looked forward to Dust, and to whatever you were doing. I was, in essence, your fan.

Yesterday opened my eyes. You released a unfinished expansion that is barely functional. One that is actively damaging some people's systems, and which prevents some other people from playing the game altogether. An expansion that offers no content, and which even on my 6870 at max settings, looks terrible.

The reason for this rush? a poorly priced and conceived microtransaction store that has made you the laughing stock of the business, the media, and most importantly, your customers.

But really, if that was it, it would be no big deal.

It then came to light that you have been lying through your teeth all this time. That you have been removing functionality (like accessories that existed in the previous char creator, ship fittings, etc), to sell them later. That when you say "Vanity only" you forget to add "for now".

Yesterday, your sales coordinator showed the blatant disregard and contempt you have for your customers by his comments on chat, but perhaps most importantly, your disconnection from reality.

But all through this, through the broken expansion with one of four "stations" in which we can play by ourselves and stare at such relevant items as 10 + boots and monocles, I had faith.

Faith that this was a miscommunication.

Faith that there was an error somewhere.

Faith that at some point, CCP BackTracks would show up and tell us that it was incorrect. Or perhaps even that you had changed your mind.

Faith that the document posted and verified as authentic by several sources was a joke.

I suspect others shared that faith. Others with longer stories, and customer ralationships with you.

But I was suddenly struck by a realization.

There is no error, is there? There will be no post telling us that there was a mistake at any point. You will not say that it meant nothing, that you will leave that other woman, and that everything will be okay and we will be happy.

I realize the meaning of your silence.

It is us, who are going. It is us, you don't care about. What post comes will state that yes, you are going for microtransactions, no, there is no mistake, and no, there will be no change.

And it's a damn shame. I actually liked your game. We had some good times.

Do you really think things will work out for you?

Do you think you will replace your customer base and make more money off a magical other one?

Honestly?

Seriously?

Look around at all the failed MMO's and Console games. You got lucky, but most don't. Dust is doomed, and games based off the White Wolf franchise are seldom successful. And then what?

In your hubris and arrogance, you are sacrificing us. Keep that in mind.

I'm a newer player. One that came as a result of your marketing. One that liked your game and spent on it. One that is thinking of going.

Think about that.




This.

Waylan Yutani
Gallente
Order of the Seraphim
Posted - 2011.06.24 17:20:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Zverofaust
Yet another idiot with a ridiculous sense of entitlement thinking that you alone hold the secrets to Eve's alleged failure, and then feeling the unstoppable urge to splerg your mindless drivel onto the forums in a new thread instead of one of the dozens that already exist on this exact topic.

What I'd like to know is where are the GMs and forum mods who are supposed to keep these forums clear of mindless spam and reposts?


If you have a valid counter argument come with it or stop wasting space in this otherwise perfectly sensible thread.


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